Thanks! very good....
😊
Ridiculous assertions that someone is being ripped off or conned
How many times has this scenario played out here? Someone purchases product X, and tries it in their system. They report positive results, that it works as advertised, that they got their money’s worth, that they are happy with the purchase. Then someone, usually having zero experience with the product, replies with something like: “No, you’ve got it all wrong! You’re being ripped off! You’re being conned!
Does anyone else understand how ridiculous and absurd these kinds of assertions are?! The consumer who actually put up their own money and took the time to evaluate the product in their own home/system reports it works as advertised, they are happy with it, that they got their money’s worth. Then someone else claims they were ripped off?!
Imagine an agency investigating consumer fraud getting a complaint like this: “My neighbor is being ripped off!” “No, no, he thinks it’s great, does everything he expected it to. He’s very happy with it, but I just know he’s being conned!” Do you seriously think they’re going to open any kind of investigation into it?
You can disagree with what someone says about the effectiveness of a product all you want, but to say they have been defrauded, when they report the exact opposite, is patently ridiculous.
Showing 8 responses by mahgister
I am astounded by the simplistic arguments... Scammed or not being scammed...
How could you being not scam if you purchase gear and plug them in the wall thinking that all is good, looking at the price sheet and waiting for the next upgrade? How could you be scam if you learn how to embed any piece of gear, with no costly "tweaks", but with a method of listenings experiments and low cost devices?
When all is well done upgrades become not superfluous but way less attractive...This is the SIGN of success...
Anything can be a scam or a useful piece, it is relative of what you will do with it... There is no fine line separating COMPLETELY beautiful and ugly faces....
I can change the sound of any room with a straw well located , is it a scam? No, Helmholtz science ...
|
I wish i could had written your post, but i did not wrote it, and could not anyway to say it better than you....
|
I understand the valid points that are made in the above posts about necessary moderation and censorship...
But the less censorship there is the better it is IN THE LONG TERM... I dont like some forum where all people are tailored on the same "technological" implicit closed minds views...
Audio is too complex " adult" matter to be censored...Like Politics....We can censor children around a table though...
I dont like to be consider a children to be moderate... Extremist troll will die anyway in any serious discussion or will be relegated in his trench... Audiogon is good like it is, tolerant to all.... Asking censorship of troubled and troubling people is not a good idea save in very extreme case only.... |
Thanks my drawing ability need some love....😁😊
|
MY string of experiments with no cost devices mainly around acoustic now, is related to pure ORTHODOXICAL science by Helmhotz and the other UNORTHODOX devices (ionizers and S. G. and others ) i used were also even if less spectacular in their effect very audible through my already treated room...
A STRING of continuous improvements for one year or more could not be a "placebo"... A placebo is a valid explanation for an unstable perceptive situation...Not in acoustic where experiments could be continuously designed to falsify the first impression...Or the simplest "blind test" could be used with repetition or by accident... It is clear that some "snake oil" product exist, but way less than more people think...Snake oil product is not separated by valid product by a STRAIGHT PERFECT line... Here is my diminushing return laws illustrated by my "drawing".. Observe the bias zone, with negative unconscious or positive learned biases, is a circle whose perimeter is related to the audiophile knowlewdge and to the gear product refine technology history itself and thirdly to the embeddings experimental control on our own hearing ability and on the way the gear is embedded rightfully or not...... This means that our capacity to perceive an upgrade and classify his real value is function of our own audiophile history in progress and our own increasing ability to perceive and is related also to the real process and history of improvements in some technology ( amplifier dac speakers)... What is not VISIBLE on this schema is the huge action of the room acoustic....The point and sphere diameter in the center of the bias zone of diminishing return schema will then vary greatly now by a third factors the acoustical settings of the room , the electrical noise floor control of the house, and the mechanical vibratory embeddings of the gear itself...
Then do you see now where is the moving DECEPTIVE " center point" corresponding to the diminishing returns so called "law" ?
It FLUCTUATES completely for each of us even if it certainly exist...We generally are unable to control it because we dont understand nor sometimes control our own audition history neither "the plus or minus" of new gear technology, without saying a word about the 3 embeddings controls which could greatly contribute to fix for a time this unfixable point or very difficult to relatively fix and estimate... Then this point of diminishing return is a good metaphor for a bad situation worse than we can imagine... Audio is the way to figure out for ourself where we are in this audiophile dynamical scale map...
Rainbow dont grow legs,and dont walks to eat you and they will never do»-Groucho Marx🌈
|
Judging someone or a product is possible AFTER trying the product... If someone think that the written science with no further experiment explain anything about sounds experience, he is deluded...
Like scapegoating, claiming fraud or scam is the easiest thing to do when we dont want to experiments or dont need to...
I never recommended anything costing more than a few bucks... For me the organized "scam" is sometimes the refusal to experiment and the continuous insistance on "electronical design measured informations" to be the ONLY valid facts to know... The "upgrade urge" everywhere push by all magazines is the most evident potential scam for me.... With no money, i never had the choices anyway, save to experiment with peanuts cost solutions... Total success...
|
Great thread!
I, like the OP. has been annoyed by these truths too much repeated that customers are most of the times deceived by their hopes,marketing ploys, and biases and placebos...It is true to say that but audio is a learning road...And most products are good to try if we want to travel the road...No denigrating is needed...
For sure i experienced this truth with ALL products i bought to upgrade my system to some degree especially in the beginning when I was unsatified ...No upgrades in spite of their improvement were working enough though... The reason is simple: i was not mature enough in audio to know how to work on the essentials key factors in audio: embedding controls and especially acoustic... Acoustic experiments are listenings experiments...They dont always lie, and even when they lied you will be able to discern and master the truth which lay behind or in front of the acoustic "lie" anyway ... We can control acoustic almost "at will" mechanically with Helmhotz method and with passive treatment... Mastering "illusions" from our brain is part of the acoustic experience not his foe....
I dont like to be accused of being conned by myself or conning others using cheap "herkimer diamonds" or S.G. or ionizers for example with my main mechanical acoustical device.... Most people think audio is a string of purchases... I think audio is a string of experiments...Be them a new purchase or not....
|
