That's not what she said.
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I have two B&W DB4S subs and I love them. 1000w and 8.5Hz at -6db. Terrific for music and movies where you feel as well hear the sounds. No worries with integration. FOR Great sound Easy to position Superb calibration controls AGAINST Requires phone & app Limited Android support Wrong side of the Atlantic LOL |
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missioncoonery “Seems like the people with the high end loudspeakers are using JL AUDIO. Is REL Midfi?......are you for real?...” Don’t you know if your cables are not 3 months salary you have a mid-fi system lol. I find much of the discussion here to be total nonsense and relate a lot to psychoacoustics I bought a pair of revel and in the process of researching opinions I ran across a number of articles on Revel’s blind testing and found it fascinating. This recent video is good. Get better toward the end. https://youtu.be/xEZkz4Li-0M Anyway back on topic. It does not matter whether you go JL or Rel it is all about integrating it well. You need a highpass and you should measure your room or you will spend a long time dialing it in. Subs are super important these days as speaker prices are getting crazy and bass is very important. Even the newest crop of mid sized speakers (Sopra 2/3, Wilson Sabrina X, Olympica III, Revel 228be etc, 803d3) have no deep bass. They rely on room gain and that never sounds a good as a proper sub or very large speaker. |
mijostyn, thanks for the opinion. If my JL subs fail for the 3rd time I might give JTR a try. As for DIY just not for me. As an engineer for 20 years I sure I could figure it out (I dabbled in a lot of tech over the years in industry), but it just does not interest me. I want things as plug and play as possible. Creating things, tweaking software, etc just seems like work to me these days. But I really respect the big DIY setups, very cool for sure. I have also remodeled two houses from the studs up and I just want to listen to music these days. No more construction, electrical, plumbing, no more projects for me. |
I think that they are on the same level. It depends on how you want to Intergrade your system. I just trust JL Audio and being an American company, in-expensive and easy for them to repair. Honestly you couldn’t go wrong with either. Also the look for me matters as well. Both companies make exquisite pieces of gear. |
I have had 2 JL Audio F112 v1 for a long time now, they are pair with Wilson Sophia v1, I use a Trinnov AL16 to do bass management, they are brilliant and build quality is tops. I have used them with multiple setups, tube and SS preamps. If you take the time to do the setup with location and built in room correction, they are solid addition to any setup. |
mijostyn5,059 postsSome of the information I agree with you but when it comes to speed and accuracy with the subwoofers, I don’t. It has to do with time alignment with the speaker of choice. You want everything to be in tune, exactly how it is produced. If the sub is ported, it doesn’t require as much power as a sealed subwoofer. If it is a push-pull subwoofer with 2 active or 1 active and 1 passive, it reacts a bit faster and requires less power. I will agree from experience that a class A/B amplifier subwoofer sounds a little better but that does depend on the build. JL, REL, M & K, etc have been in the game a long time and have mastered the Class D amplification. JL started in the car world and now dabs in both home and auto. The subwoofer that’s in the Fathom subs which are my favorite are W7 10”, 12”, & 13”. During the time when a JL representative was on a video chat at HIFI Buy I asked if they have considered utilizing their W7 8” in a single or dual for their Fathom or their Gotham. He answered that it wouldn’t be cost effective to build but he does understand the want for it. The 8” W7 is their best seller in the car audio world. I’m not a fan of Bose but think about how they figured it out utilizing 5” subwoofers. The cabinet design also plays a huge part. |
I was never interested in adding subs to my 2-channel system. However, I decided to try some REL T5i’s to complement some stand mount speakers I was trying. I was really impressed with how they filled in the low end, improved the soundstage and integral easily. I recently moved and my room is a bit bigger so I decided to try a JL F110 v1, with the goal of likely getting another. I really just moved two weeks ago and just set up the JL and haven’t dialed it in at all. It obviously goes deeper than the T5i’s but other than that it is too hard to tell yet if I like it more. I’ll report back as I dial it in more. I’m still just dialing in the whole system so it might be a few weeks. |
manelus, I hate to be a stick in the mud (ya right) but, speed has nothing to do with it. When a driver can not move fast enough it's high frequency response rolls off. Look at the frequency response of the 18" Dayton I mention above, 20 to 500 Hz. It has no trouble putting out 500 Hz so 80 to 100 Hz is not a problem. Most 12" drivers make it to 1000 Hz without issue. It is usually not speed that cuts the drivers off either but cone breakup. So, then what are you hearing? Transients and detail are being smeared because either the subs were not well match to the main speakers or the amp driving the subwoofer was not able to control it well. Driving big powerful subwoofers is not easy. There is a lot of back EMF. This is a problem we noted way back in the late 70's when subwoofers were a brand new deal. Some amps made great bass others not so much. Basically you need a lot of power (big power supply) and an output stage with extremely low impedance. The class D amps that most of the Subwoofer manufacturers are using usually do an admirable job but IMHO not as good as a big class A/AB amp. But, in a small enclosed space you can't have a big amp that generates a lot of heat. By the way, if vibration affects electronics why are we sticking amplifiers in subwoofers? Just a thought. I prefer passive subwoofers and outboard amplifiers. With outboard digital bass management there is no need to place electronics in the subs. You can then pick the amp you think makes the best bass. As far as matching subs to main speakers is concerned, the vast majority of sub owners are not able to do it correctly because they do not have the tools. Doing it by ear is folly. It's like pinning the tail on the donkey. It is easy to do if you take off the blindfold. Using a measurement mic/program along with digital bass management allows you to dial it in perfectly every time regardless of where you place the subwoofers and boy do you get big smiles when everything is working right. Subwoofers are neither fast nor slow. They are either driven and integrated correctly or they are not. Don't get me started on enclosures. |
Just a thanks to everyone for all their input. I am at this crossroad right now deciding on Rel or JL.for my Monitor Audio pl300ii's. Prior to the 300's, I was using Klipsch Forte's with an SVS sb1000. Now, the SVS just doesn't cut it musically with the 300's. Hence, I'm leaning toward Rel but have heard good things about JL subs as well. So thanks for the read folks, cheers. |
I've owned JLA, Rel, M&K Martin Logan and others. I've heard SVS, Rhythmik, others. The best combination IME which I currently own are JLA Fathoms with an outboard Jensen high to low output converter. Also, any sub can be difficult to integrate if you don't know how, and without measuring to aid with dialing in, it's nearly impossible to get seamless integration. Then of course, final tuning with your ears. |
From past experience, it’s not about how big the subwoofers need to to be. I completely understand the larger the sub, the mor air it moves. There is a trade off and it is a negative one. The base is not going to be detailed. It’s about matching the speakers you are using for your 2 channel rig. It needs to have the speed and accuracy as well. It’s easy to forget this. It’s like an elephant trying to keep up with the cheetah, lol. Big is great for movies because most soundtracks are muddy, slow and sloppy. Big subs benefit from that. Music in. A two channel rig doesn’t. I learned that from IASCA Competition in Car Audio decades ago. I applied that in today system and loving the output. Remember make sure the subwoofers complement you system, not drown it. Makes all the world of a difference. |
Get dual carbon specials and thank me later. You won't regret it; they sound INSANE. Or at the least dual 812's from REL. Much like my iphone, everything good is made in China (along with plenty of not-so-good-stuff). JLs are good as well and reach deeper, but not to my liking. No bad choices here...flip a coin...and hope it lands on the REL..lol |
@james633 , I think you underestimate yourself. Building one of these kits is not that hard. Finishing them nicely with something like Piano Lacquer is not so easy but you can have that done by a pro for reasonable money. I tell people otherwise just to cover the enclosure with black carpet. The JTR woofers are very interesting. It looks like they are using a Dayton reference 18" driver which is excellent. Plywood construction is better than MDF. They are using a smaller sealed enclosure, a lot of power and DSP to force the woofer down lower. It is still a very large subwoofer. It would be impossible for me to fit four of them into the situation I have and with multiple subs a woofer that large is overkill. But using two in a point source system in a room 15 X 25' or larger would be fine if someone did not mind the look. You will also have to weight that enclosure down to keep it from shaking. I would put a granite slab on top of it. Used with digital bass management I would think it would be significantly superior to any Rel, SVS or JL sub. Here is the driver https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-RSS460HO-4-18-Reference-HO-Subwoofer-4-ohm-295-472 |
I have two nice systems, both with a pair of REL subs. The older pair are REL Carbon Limiteds, run with Longbow REL wireless. It works great. The wireless allowed me to play with the sub's location until the boom went away. I was stubborn about this, as I just felt that the subs should sit right beside my speakers. Not so. Moving them to the front corners of the room on an angle was the ticket. Now I can't even locate the subs, but when I turn them off (only for demonstration) they are sorely missed. I have never had reliability issues. They improve everything about the music, not just the bass and sub base. So when I did my new system I quickly went for the newer Carbon Specials with their newest Airship wireless. Beautiful subs and easy to set up. They were quickly dialed in and sounded superb. But I had an issue, and it took me a bit to figure it out. My home wifi went down the tubes around the time I installed the new Airship REL wireless. I had an old Apple wifi router, so I replaced it with a newer mesh system (Eero Pro 6). Supposed to be easy and amazing. Did not work well either. Turns out, it was direct competition from the REL Airship, which also uses the 5 Gh band. Contacting REL, Eero and my IT guy, there was no solution. So I returned the Airship wireless and ran Baseline Blue cables which sound great. Fortunately I had the positions dialed in so it was ok. Precision Audio and Video in Chicago was great on the purchase and shipping to Maryland, and support of the wireless issue. Call Albert. My summary: -I love the REL's. Extremely musical and support the soundstage and imaging. -no reliability issues at all -two is much better than one -caution on the new Airship 5ghz wireless -the baseline blue cables are much better than the standard cables -the high level inputs are a must -play with the locations even if it does not seem like the most obvious spot Thanks! Ken |
I alternate between KEF LS-50s and Magnepan .7s for my primary speakers. Most subs I've tried make low tones but they sound wooly, slow, and flabby compared to the primaries. The REL T/7x in my listening room is an incredibly good match for both speakers. Fast, well defined bass,with adequate dynamic range and output level in my situation. Bigger room, bigger speakers, obviously I would double up or go with a higher-end offering. |
Having owned both here are the pros and cons- JL Audio +Powerful, nice sounding bass with deep impact -Cabinet resonance colored the midrange of my monitors- a deal breaker -Difficult integration even with high level inputs and continuous phase control and REW measuring. after over a year the integration still was not perfect -High level snap in connector difficult to install and somewhat loose. REL +Nice sounding bass, more subtle and very fast and musical. Plays flat to 20Hz in room. +Solid cabinet with no resonance- midrange from monitors is perfect- no coloration. +Extremely fast and easy to integrate, weeks vs. years. +Level and crossover controls have "click steps" to document and adjust the settings. +High level input cables are long and of good quality. Keepers in my audiophile system. |
mijostyn, thanks for the information and I agree. Integrating a sub without a highpass is a waist of time IMO and causes more problems than it fixes. The resistor idea is a good one for sure. Though I think a DYI sub with highpass and measurements is way over a lot of peoples heads (mine included). Understanding and doing are two different things. Baby steps lol. Any thoughts on a direct to consumer subs like JTR Captivator RS1. I heard about it on Audioholics and it looks interesting (great measurements). Kind of a “DIY” value done for you. It would need a proper highpass of course. https://www.jtrspeakers.com/jtr-captivator-rs1 |
@james633, bigger drivers of the same caliber are always going to sound better and that is science proven. There is a simple reason for it. As the cone excursion increases the suspension becomes progressively less linear. It gets stiffer until it can't move any farther. This distorts the waveform. Larger drivers do not have to move as far to move the same amount of air resulting in less distortion for the same output level. There is a limit however. As the cone gets larger it becomes more difficult to control and in many instances starts to wobble. You can see it happen with a strobe. The largest anyone has to go in a home installation is 15" If more power is needed the go to multiple drivers which accomplishes the same thin as larger drivers, shorter excursions. With the right size drivers servos are not needed at all. It is easy to keep distortion under 0.5%. There are issues with the use of subwoofers that manufacturers won't mention primarily because they can't deal with them or are afraid that the increase in price will knock them out of the market. The first is the use of a high pass filter or rather a complete two way crossover. Taking the bass out of the main speaker dramatically lowers distortion in low frequency drivers that operate well into the mid range. You can tailor the response curve of the main speakers and subwoofers to match perfectly and you can take the crossover point up higher without difficulty. Next is a critical issue that they never mention. The impulse from the subwoofers and the main speakers has to reach your ears at the same time. You want to listen to one bass drum not two bass drums. This can not easily be achieved by positioning the subs. The problem is that subwoofers are most efficient in corners and against walls, up to 6 dB more efficient requiring much less power which is vitally important if you are using DSP correction. Most people position their main speakers away from the wall placing the subwoofers 3 to5 feet behind the main speakers. That is a 0.3 to 0.5 millisecond group delay. The easiest way to fix this problem is to digitally delay the signal going to the main speakers. Phasing and time correction are impossible to do accurately by ear but you can measure them with a $300 microphone/measurement program or with a comprehensive room control system. If you want to fix the group delay by moving the subwoofers or speakers then all you need is the measurement microphone. You will just have to accept the fact that your system will not be as efficient as it could be but if you do not have digital facilities this is the only way you can do it. Comprehensive room control preamps with bass management programs are the best way to go. New units are coming along all the time and some of them are not very expensive. MiniDSP, DEQX, Anthem and Trinnov are a few. There is no commercially made subwoofer that will provide state of the art bass out of the box. The system I describe above will out perform any subwoofer named so far in this thread and not by a little. I will not buy any more commercially made subwoofers. There is only one that meets my requirements and it is $36,000.00. I would need four of them 🤢 Discounting my labor I can do pretty much the same thing for $15,000.00 in drivers, amps and enclosure materials. I have no relationship to Audio Kinesis but I think most here would be better off buying their swarm system. If you have one of the above subwoofers you can do your main speakers a favor by soldering capacitors in series with the inputs of your amplifier. The value is calculated with this equation Fc = 1/2piRC or C = 1/Fc2piR Fc= cut off frequency, R=input impedance of amplifier, C= capacitance in Farads. So if your amps input impedance is 10K ohms and you want a cutoff frequency of 100 Hz C = 160 nF. You can get the caps from Digikey. I forgot to mention that this is a 6 dB/octave filter. |
@tablejockey I tested with 2 S812s (borrowed one from my local dealer) because you are absolutely correct 1 vs 2 would not have been a fair comparison. @hilde45 and @jeffvegas My experience too, my Rythmiks had better bass (much lower than the REL S812s) and I still say cleaner bass as well and there was certainly no delay with the servo (at least not audibly) perhaps due to the fact that I had so much more control over the setup of the Rythmiks than the RELs. (REL’s never did integrate as claimed) But I agree with jeffvegas that I think that the dynamics were a hair better with the RELs. Always find these discussions interesting, there are so many factors which guide us to our solutions. The differences in equipment, the amount of money tied up in each component, and especially the room size and acoustics. So many variables... that is why I still prefer my brick and mortar dealers. -- wish there were more! |
Hello, I own both brands. As a reliability issue for JL, that was with the older E Series. I believe it was the volume pot or something basic. The V2 are really reliable and in the F series they have 80% more adjustment nodes than the V1 series. The issue with JL Audio VS REL is cost. With REL you can get a smaller T series sub with the Speakon connection and it is as smooth as silk. It looks like the Carbon series in REL is like the ESeries in JL with a Speakon connection. With JL F110 series you have the same specs with a cheaper price and a smaller foot print. If you want the Speakon connection then go with REL. If you are going RCA connections then go with JL. The best system is two JL F110 subs and the JL CR1 crossover. It lets you dial in the perfect crossover point on your subs but more importantly your main speakers. The F110 have 18 point room correction. They play at the same frequency as the bigger RELs do but at a cheaper price, a smaller footprint, and with one driver. So in a nutshell it’s REL at a cheaper cost at the lower end. Since you are going to $8000 I say go with the JL. Regardless of brand pick up a JL CR1 crossover as long as you are using a separate amplifier. At these price point it’s JL Audio. You are getting way more bang for your buck. No pun intended. The F series is so good you will not look back. As long as you do not need the Speakon connection. The JL is so good I have not even needed the room correction. |
Have *both* REL and Rythmik and have compared extensively, too. Both are good. Rythmik has no weak bass response or lack of dynamics in my room and no delay in the sound. Jim Salk, a top-notch speaker maker, uses Rythmiks in his custom subs. Still, rooms are a big factor and of course so is subjective perception. Good luck with your REL and JL AUDIO comparison. |
@jeffvegas -- I'd rid myself of brand-focus and gadgetry and go with the DIY-advice of poster @mijostyn above. Let physics have their say, and when you buy separate components (certainly electronics) reliability usually sees a clear boost. Cheaper as well. If DIY is a no-go I'd go with the likes of a duo or quartet of PSA's S1512. Very high quality subs with great pro drivers and good ICEpower amps - way cheaper than both REL and JL Audio to boot. |
focker39, I would not worry about the rated power and look at total DB output if using in a home theater application. For music who cares as you will not be at the limit. I would guess you are seeing the difference between the efficiency of sealed vs passive radiator. The sealed box of the JL will require more power. Also keep in mind going from 800 watts to 1600 watts is only worth 3db and when not driven at the limit will not matter. |
So interestingly enough, this is the exact dilemma that I have been having. I have been torn between the 2 brands for the same reason and have not been able to actually buy one over the other. What I find interesting, and maybe others can help explain, is the large power difference between the amps of the two brands. Yet both have great bass, just different style bass. |
deadhead1000, A swarm with mini subs would be interesting, especially for an irregular room. 4 duel driver 6.5” kefs (8 drivers total) subs would have a lot of surface area. In my head I alway like big drivers for bass but I know that is not science based… and it comes down to box size and efficiency. Anyway back on topic. Even though Rel subs are made in China I bet they have less failures than JL which probably uses Chinese electronics in a U.S. assembled sub (just assuming and I have no actual knowledge). I would also love to know if it seems like JL Audio’s fail more simply due to more market saturation, but my reliability experience has not been good. |
I just upgraded to a JL, heard most of the brands in this thread. The thing that won me over was their DSP, they are built like tanks and weight just as much. Solid. But I wouldn’t have minded a Rel or Martin Logan, I brought before the new KEFs came out and would have liked to hear them. Any one here do a swarm of mini subs yet? |
"sold my REL S812 and bought 2 Rythmik G22s, much better low bass, tremendously better integration, just as tonally accurate - or at least similar, but most likely due to the servo, a little less immediate." mesonto- just based on what you've stated, 2 subs replaced one. Regardless of brand, it SHOULD sound "better". More of whatever brand sub is going to be more convincing than 1 "premium" brand sub. |
