Question on Denon DL-103 retipping options and preferences
I have been looking at getting a Denon DL-103 retipped and I have narrowed it down to getting it done by Steve at VAS or by Andy at Needle Clinic.
Both companies approach to the DL-103 is very different and I am curious if anyone has heard cartridges from each or what you think that may be better for amazing sounding rock.
Steve recommends a wood housing and then will do a Boron/MR retipping, where Andy will modify the plastic housing on the DL-103 to convert it's enclosed outer body to a half nude
body, lightening it up which he says will make it track better. His conversion will be a micro ridge nude stylus (sapphire/boron
cantilever)
So as stated very different approaches, same cost for the most part, I have ruled Soundsmith out just based on time, I know Andy turns around in a day, but have read a lot about both so I figured I would ask the question to see where people lean more often. I do already have an ebony housing, just want to get a cartridge that punches way above its weight.
If there is something I should look at outside the DL-103 I would be open to hear about it.
Just for the record this cartridge will be going on a SOTA Sapphire VI with an Audiomods series 6 tonearm and I have a McIntosh MP100 going to a tube rolled Schiit Freya+ driving by two Odyssey Kismet monoblocks and Martin Logan speakers.
Personally, my hobby is building and customizing Linn LP12s and tube amps, and ripping LPs to hirez with a PS Audio Phono Converter. I often run a Sunvalley SV-EQ1616D into it. I listen via a DAC3 and either Pass XA100.5s through MBL 126s or a Golden Tube Audio SE-40 through Klipsch Forte IVs.
To me, different LPs sound better with different carts. Probably the most accurate one I have now is that MC20 Super but I have a lot of vinyl that could use a bit of "grace and forgiveness". The Grado Statement and various Denons (nude and in various bodies) give me options to put an LP in its best light.
Well that is a reasonably sized list of Cart's sent in under the knife.
Changing Cantilever Materials and Body Materials will bring much more to the forefront than the re-tip only.
I'm sure you are wondering why the Original Manufactures didn't become so adventurous and use the alternate options to Voice Cart's for a broader audience to discover their own preferences.
I have had retipping (and more!) done by Soundsmith, VAS and Needle Clinic. All of the retipped carts sound great (all of them better than new), but...
Soundsmith retipped my Grado Reference Platinum (saphire cantilever, line contact) in 2017. Sounds great, but they had to break the wood body apart (crack line is obvious) and they did not mention it at all when I finally got it back over 2 1/2 months later. Was the work actually done in the US?
NAS retipped 2 Ortofon MC20 Super IIs for me this year (boron cantilevers, one micro ridge, one line contact). They sound great. VAS is cagey about turnaround times, though. First it was maybe a month, then it was suddenly ready. Outsourced somewhere. Also, they offered to machine a wood body for one of them but when they received the cartridges they were unable to do it. And really, "Friends and Family"?
Needle Clinic has done 6 cartridges for me over the years:
In 2017 they retipped a Denon DL-103R (saphire/line contact) and put it in a wood body (eBay - Stanley Engineering Shop for wood bodies) for me at no extra charge. It's great. Turnaround timeincluding the shipping both ways was 8 days (I checked my emails and tracking).
This year, first my Grado Statement Reference (boron/micro ridge). Great sound; 9 days turnaround.
Next, I sent them 6 carts at once. 2 turned out to be unrepairable - no charge. One should have been - a Denon DL-(alpha)S1 with a tiny crack in the suspension missed on initial inspection. But they told me they would repair it so they did, at the original price; boron/micro ridge. They put boron/line contact on an Orofon MC20 and boron/micro ridge on a Denon DL-301. And last but not least, they put boron/microridge on an Ortofon MC20 Super and removed the body (their idea). That nude MC20 Super is a true reviewer's tool. All this - turnaround time 10 days.
I recommend Needle Clinic. Yes you can get quality work elsewhere but not that quickly every time. And they will answer their phone and their emails promptly.
I went to VAS because I wanted to try a wood body on the Orofon MC20 Super II but... see above.
Plastic, metal, wood, nude - all sound different. I bet Needle Clinic will put that wood body on for you if you ask, and probably no extra charge. The old one has to come off to retip it anyway.
The cost of this tweak was all of $12.50 for the plate and epoxy
Now I enjoy the superb details that this Optimaized Contour Line Contact stylus is capable of and the tracking is perfect.
Epoxying the cadrtridge to the plate did two things
made the cartridge housing much more robust and less prone to unwanted vibrations and
stoped the fixing bolts from distorting the housing when tightened.
.Havene’t even considered another cartridge since
Is it the best solution?
not really - I could have trashed what was at the time a brand new Saoundsmith modified DL 103 cartridge
But I learned lots in the process
Full Disclosure - I had already completed this same adaption on a standard 103 cartridge, so I already knew that it would significantly improve performance.
So if you are wary about modifying cartridges in this manner, then buy a Zu and send it to Soundsmith (or other similar outfit) because the shperical stylus and associated catilever is not the best choice for such a capable cartridge.
I recently traded for a 103, and have been enjoying how it makes my records sound like late night radio listening as a kid, in the 70s and 80s.
But really, it is much inferior to the next model in the Denon line up, the 301 mkII. Unless you also want your records to sound like pre-digital radio.
I sent Andy a Zu Denon 103 and had him install a line contact stylus attached to a sapphire cantilever.....turn around was fast....less than 2 weeks. Excellent resultant sound
Audio-Technica cartridges are great and always good value/quality ratio, you can’t go wrong with any of them, because of this brand we don’t have to pay too much for a decent cartridge (mm or mc).
Hi - I know the Audiomods arm, I have set a couple up, including one on a the top of the range Platine Verdier turntable,.
In my view forget about the Denon 103 standard or modded - the arm does not suit it.
For your budget for a MC under $700 my recommendation would be
AT33PTG/2 -this is an excellent cartridge with boron cantilver and micro ridge advanced profile stylus. It is very musical - around $650
ATOC9/XML - again this is an excellent cartridge with boron cantilever and microridge stylus - around $550
The AT33PTG/2 is a very well balnced, smooth, detailed cartridge that punches well above its price. The OC9/XML, again excellent value for money, has a little more bottom end punch than the AT33. Between the 2 its a choice of beautiful balance ( AT33) , or more punch (OC9).
Although the OC9/XML is not the top of the OC9 range this is the most musical of the OC9 range, the microlinear stylus is not as finicky as the higher priced shibata which can sound brittle. Same with the AT33PTG/2 - the micro linear stylus profile has the best balance of detail and not to bright or brittle.
My own prefernce of the 2 is the AT33PTG/2 - its a fantastic cartridge for the money. For reference I currently use Koetsu, Ikeda and Dynavector cartridges north of $5k but could happily listen to the AT33PTG/2.
@dover
thank you so much, I reread some emails from Jeff at Audiomods and reached back out to him and he said almost verbatim what you said. I did a lot of reading last night between three models of AT’s two of which are mentioned above and decided I am 100% going for the AT33PTG/2 I think it will be a great place to start and when I get up to the Dynavector XX2 that is where I will move. I need to learn my arm and pick what’s best for it
Hi - I know the Audiomods arm, I have set a couple up, including one on a the top of the range Platine Verdier turntable,.
In my view forget about the Denon 103 standard or modded - the arm does not suit it.
For your budget for a MC under $700 my recommendation would be
AT33PTG/2 -this is an excellent cartridge with boron cantilver and micro ridge advanced profile stylus. It is very musical - around $650
ATOC9/XML - again this is an excellent cartridge with boron cantilever and microridge stylus - around $550
The AT33PTG/2 is a very well balnced, smooth, detailed cartridge that punches well above its price. The OC9/XML, again excellent value for money, has a little more bottom end punch than the AT33. Between the 2 its a choice of beautiful balance ( AT33) , or more punch (OC9).
Although the OC9/XML is not the top of the OC9 range this is the most musical of the OC9 range, the microlinear stylus is not as finicky as the higher priced shibata which can sound brittle. Same with the AT33PTG/2 - the micro linear stylus profile has the best balance of detail and not to bright or brittle.
My own prefernce of the 2 is the AT33PTG/2 - its a fantastic cartridge for the money. For reference I currently use Koetsu, Ikeda and Dynavector cartridges north of $5k but could happily listen to the AT33PTG/2.
@justinrphillips: I agree totally with what tkr says. Plus a LOT of folks like the Denon "house sound", it's why it's so popular. I started with a Denon DL-103 because of all the great things that I read about it and to me it didn't disappoint. Several years later it still makes me smile and for the price of a new one I can get one of my broken ones rebuilt with a better stylus. I'm very happy at this price point. I'd be very upset if I messed up one of my carts, I'd probably throw my whole TT rig in the trash if I messed up a thousand dollar cart! I would be sick and disgusted with myself. I have no interest in playing in that field, good for the guys that can.
I think that your approach makes perfect sense. A good way to get into the world of MCs is to do what you are doing.
Please don`t let yourself get discouraged by some of the answers here.
I have two retipped/recantilevered/modified DL 103s. Both sound different from the stock 103, and both sound better, IMO. One retipper who hasn`t been mentioned in this thread yet is a guy who calls himself Needlestein. You might google him. He works fast, and his prices are fair.
"" If there is something I should look at outside the DL-103 I would be open to hear about it ""
" Not looking for the Denon sound .... just looking for a great MC cart that will make me happy with rock ...."
""" I have never heard a Denon 103, and for that matter I have never heard a MC on my system. """
"""" I have been curious what a 103r moded would be like compared to a 103 """"
Certainly all those statements makes sense to you and maybe for other gentlemans but not for me.
It's obvious that you have a misunderstood on your overall " looking for " due that you are not an experienced gentleman.
I own and owned almost all 103 versions that I bougth several years ago when I was exactly as you: ignorant on what means " great " cartridge ( your word. ).
The 103 was not designed for home systems and is a cartridge that lives in the very wide and deep mediocrity sea and I was swiming there for " years " and seems to me that you want it.
Good luck with.
R
I did have a case that can stand up to your cross examination you are correct I am ignorant! I have a budget and need to start somewhere! I would like to try something other than the MM world I have been living in. I am ignorant, I do not want to be swimming in the “very wide deep mediocrity sea” and have asked for help. I am researching my butt off but still can’t spend more than $700 at this point.
""
If there is something I should look at outside the DL-103 I would be open to hear about it ""
"
Not looking for the Denon sound .... just looking for a great MC cart that will make me happy with rock ...."
"""
I have never heard a Denon 103, and for that matter I have never heard a MC on my system. """
""""
I have been curious what a 103r moded would be like compared to a 103 """"
Certainly all those statements makes sense to you and maybe for other gentlemans but not for me.
It's obvious that you have a misunderstood on your overall " looking for " due that you are not an experienced gentleman.
I own and owned almost all 103 versions that I bougth several years ago when I was exactly as you: ignorant on what means " great " cartridge ( your word. ).
The 103 was not designed for home systems and is a cartridge that lives in the very wide and deep mediocrity sea and I was swiming there for " years " and seems to me that you want it.
I just googled: Andy Kim needle clinic Bellevue, Washington and the business shows up as "permanently closed". Is he still working on cartridges somewhere?
I have a 103D with no cantilever. I bought it new many decades ago and probably it got de-cantilevered in storage. If I can find it, I’ll send it to anyone who wants it for the cost of shipping.The 103 and its variants are a sort of religion among those who love them. Much like the Lynn LP 12 turntable. There is no point arguing about that.
On the other hand, I don’t think one can legitimately argue that the cost of high-end LOMC cartridges is ridiculously high and then simultaneously argue that the Denon DL103 is not very good, because it did not cost very much when it was new. Which was 50 years ago or so.
The best results of moded 103's are with the Audio Musikraft shells. It has consistently been making the Stereophile Class A component list. I have a VAS moded 103R with MR stylus that I use with the Musikraft shell. The shells are ~ 17 gm (bronze) and with the 103R comes to a total of ~ 21 gm. It is my preferred cartridge given the output voltage of the 103 is ideal. It sounds fantastic with my Kuzma 4P 11.
I have more than a few of the DL-103 variants that I purchased with broken cantilevers. Average price is about $80 bucks so the real cost is in having one rebuilt to my specs. There is a DL-103, DL-103R, DL-103D all waiting for Steve at VAS Audio to do his magic when I have some free cash. First I need to wear out the 3 that I have, 2 rebuilt by Steve and one that's stock. Chakster, I don't see the problem with taking a really good generator design and hot rodding it. The basic design of the cartridge is very good and it's just so musical, a trait that doesn't go away when rebuilt to a new level. There is a reason that the Denon DL-103 and it's variants have a huge following and that it's been in continuous production since the 60's. People just love them. BillWojo
"Have to say I have been curious what a 103r moded would be like compared to a 103 but I have heard crazy good things about the boron/mr mixed with paradox pulse guard."
The Paradox pulse body with lead ballast with create a cartridge weight of around 16 grams. You will need a heavy counterweight to compensate.
"You forgot to add another $300 for a cartridge itself prior to the cost of refurbishing service. Some people charge much more for 103 mod, the total with cart itself can be near $1k. Look at the prices for Zu DL103 or Anna Mighty Sound service etc."
Re-read the thread from the beginning my friend.
He paid the cost earlier, it does not change the total value, cartridges are not free. It is better to buy a good cartridge from the start than to try to make a bad cartridge better. Anyway, this is just my point of view.
hdm , As he said he has the cartridge already-so he doesn’t have to shell out the cash for a new one. I have had a lot of audio equipment modified over over the years. Most of it was purchased used long before the mods were done. The way I look at It I got plenty of use out of the original equipment before the mods-so they didn’t owe me anything. In every case the modifications elevated the sound quality to what a new unit costing way beyond the total of the unit and the modification cost. I believe this will be the case with the 103. Keep in mind that I had 103r’s done and not the 103. Justin’s results my vary.
Have to say I have been curious what a 103r moded would be like compared to a 103 but I have heard crazy good things about the boron/mr mixed with paradox pulse guard. It is minimal investment at this point and I can save for something else to try. I am sure in time I will have many cartridges and this post and peaked my interest in a few.
hdm , As he said he has the cartridge already-so he doesn’t have to shell out the cash for a new one. I have had a lot of audio equipment modified over over the years. Most of it was purchased used long before the mods were done. The way I look at It I got plenty of use out of the original equipment before the mods-so they didn’t owe me anything. In every case the modifications elevated the sound quality to what a new unit costing way beyond the total of the unit and the modification cost. I believe this will be the case with the 103. Keep in mind that I had 103r’s done and not the 103. Justin’s results my vary.
I have had retipping done by Any Kim on 2 103R’s. One with a Sapphire cantilever and the other a Boron. Both with Micro Ridge stylus. Any is a great guy to work with and his work is as good as it gets. The reason I first used him was because it took Peter from Soundsmith almost a year to return my cartridge for a retipp and repair! Andy’s turn around time was great both times. If you are looking for a cartridge that compares to some mega $ brands, send it to Paradox for a Pulse Guard mod. I have the Pulse Guard R and nothing can touch it under $2500. Andy works very closely with Parodox—both Based in California.
Ok you are like the 4th person to tell me this setup is the ultimate way to go! This is what I have been thinking about from the start!
"You forgot to add another $300 for a cartridge itself prior to the cost of refurbishing service. Some people charge much more for 103 mod, the total with cart itself can be near $1k. Look at the prices for Zu DL103 or Anna Mighty Sound service etc."
I have had retipping done by Any Kim on 2 103R’s. One with a Sapphire cantilever and the other a Boron. Both with Micro Ridge stylus. Any is a great guy to work with and his work is as good as it gets. The reason I first used him was because it took Peter from Soundsmith almost a year to return my cartridge for a retipp and repair! Andy’s turn around time was great both times. If you are looking for a cartridge that compares to some mega $ brands, send it to Paradox for a Pulse Guard mod. I have the Pulse Guard R and nothing can touch it under $2500. Andy works very closely with Parodox—both Based in California.
Let’s see: at $560 divided by 3 that’s $185 a piece for cartridges with a boron cantilever and microridge stylus.
I’ll have three of those too! We’ll call it the new math/new cartridge/audiophile combo.
You forgot to add another $300 for a cartridge itself prior to the cost of refurbishing service. Some people charge much more for 103 mod, the total with cart itself can be near $1k. Look at the prices for Zu DL103 or Anna Mighty Sound service etc.
Boron is not mandatory for a perfect sound, Beryllium is better. There are great MM cartridges available with Boron, Beryllium cantilevers, Audio-Technica line of MM cartridges (old and new) for example. Some of them available for something like $300-700. The AT20SLa is wonderful cartridge. There are so many great cartridges.
I have mentioned Grace (cartridge body) and NEW styli from SoundSmith for those who can insure themselves.
When I bought my JICO SAS (Boron/MicroRidge) for Technics 205 series it was $350 for the stylus, now they increased the prices. Another model for JICO Boron compatible with Garrott Brothers dynamic coil cartridges (and Shure cartridges too), but Garrott available new for AU$ 690 ( which is $500 USD). This is a legendary cartridge.
Sony XL-50 MM is an excellent cartridge with Boron Pipe cantilever, I bought a few and I was shocked. JICO styli available for this model too. The original is superb.
So many cheap discoveries are in Raul's MM thread, for some of them prices are not increased much over the years.
So, you haven't even heard the thingy. Have you heard a Denon DL-103 on a friends system? Any MC on your system? I hadn't, had to make a choice based on research and advice.
1st you said Rock, then Jazz and Rock.
My instinct: get the DL-103 going with advanced stylus shape on aluminum, for 'not too much' money, use/hear it, keep it as your base and compare future considerations to it.
I talked to Steve at VAS when I had the same idea as you: buy one broke, fix it, save money. He gave me specific advice when I found opportunities, usually involving potential complications ... I decided to get new.
My first MC is AT33PTG/II (check stock of anything these covid days)
to my surprise, in addition to sounding great on my mostly Jazz, it can rock! Santana, War, Rare Earth ... and electronic stuff like Eurythmics, Blue Nile. Slide, banjos: Dicky Betts, Rising Appalachia, Larkin Poe! Violins: check. Piano: check. Stand-Up Bass: check! Drums: check.
I have it on my 2nd arm, so I can compare to the AT within seconds. Less separation (can be beneficial), the special Gyger II stylus shape is rare, sounds great
So you have called out a few things and given me a lot to think about. I have never heard a Denon 103, and for that matter I have never heard a MC on my system. Just to set the stage I currently have a Sumiko Moonstone I am running and want to step up to an MC. I have a limited budget and looking for something that will match the money I spent in a TT and Tonearm but I have to start somewhere and I want to try an MC. So I need a base but I would like to find a base that gives a lot for the money. There are a lot of people pointing to audio technica and I am starting to think it may be a good place to jump in before I start buying like crazy. I still will have the 103 and the ebony housing that I can upgrade after I get used to something.
On Music I am 80% rock and 20% jazz but the jazz collection is crowing every day!
So, you haven't even heard the thingy. Have you heard a Denon DL-103 on a friends system? Any MC on your system? I hadn't, had to make a choice based on research and advice.
1st you said Rock, then Jazz and Rock.
My instinct: get the DL-103 going with advanced stylus shape on aluminum, for 'not too much' money, use/hear it, keep it as your base and compare future considerations to it.
I talked to Steve at VAS when I had the same idea as you: buy one broke, fix it, save money. He gave me specific advice when I found opportunities, usually involving potential complications ... I decided to get new.
My first MC is AT33PTG/II (check stock of anything these covid days)
to my surprise, in addition to sounding great on my mostly Jazz, it can rock! Santana, War, Rare Earth ... and electronic stuff like Eurythmics, Blue Nile. Slide, banjos: Dicky Betts, Rising Appalachia, Larkin Poe! Violins: check. Piano: check. Stand-Up Bass: check! Drums: check.
I have it on my 2nd arm, so I can compare to the AT within seconds. Less separation (can be beneficial), the special Gyger II stylus shape is rare, sounds great.
"Instead of constant rebuild of one cheap cartridge, designed for radio broadcast in the '60s, it's better to buy 3 more different cartridges that already have high-end cantilever and advanced stylus profile."
Let's see: at $560 divided by 3 that's $185 a piece for cartridges with a boron cantilever and microridge stylus.
I'll have three of those too! We'll call it the new math/new cartridge/audiophile combo.
Instead of constant rebuild of one cheap cartridge, designed for radio broadcast in the ’60s, it’s better to buy 3 more different cartridges made in the '80s that already have high-end cantilever and advanced stylus profile.
User replaceable stylus is huge benefit, this is what we call usability, you don't need a re-tipper to buy JICO SAS stylus replacement, they made those super advanced stylus for many vintage MM and the stylus available from their shop.
For GRACE owners new styli availabe from SoundSmith here. He's got many options from $200 to $500. Basically all you need is a cartridge body. His F9 compatible with F12 and F14 too. I prefer genuine styli, they are hard to find, here is mine (NOS).
I really don't know why people believe that MC cartridge is better than MM (especially equally priced MM vs. MC) ?
Another vote for Andy. I've used SS and Andy. SS did a very good job for which I have no complaints, but Andy's work produced a more marked improvement and a quick turnaround. When I need another cartridge retipped, I will have Andy do it without thinking twice.
I had Andy do a cantilever / stylus replacement on a DL-103D in the past 6 months.
He used the Namiki Boron Micro Ridge & he modified the cartridge body to reduce resonance.
I've had this cartridge for 15 years from original.
It that time I've had it rebuilt twice once by Sound Smiths & now by Andy Kim.
The original rebuild by SS used there Ruby LC option which was a marked improvement upon the original cantilever. But the Andy Kim option has turned this cartridge into a true keeper, it really is a step up in SQ compared to the SS option.
Regarding the body modification Andy does IMO it works but is a bit unsightly, so I denuded the cartridge myself and used a Stanley Engineering biscuit which when swapped out only adds an additional 0.5grams compared to original.
Regarding Andy's service I found him honest & remarkably quick to respond to and the turnaround time was within 2 days of receiving the cartridge.
Imo, the Hana el is the new 103...its been mentioned in that light a few times. $449 seems a reasonable price for a very good LOMC. It generally has the same needs as the 103, as it too has a decently high internal impedance of about 30 ohms. It works well with 1/10 SUT, and has an elliptacal stylus profile rather than conical.
I used Steve at VAS to repair a couple of tonearms for me and he did great work and rather quickly, too. I had a Denon 103D for a very long time until my wife's cat destroyed it. I really liked it although I was never too sure about the record wear and the spherical stylus. On the other hand, I don't hear any wear from those records either. I am tossing the idea around of getting another 103D but there are so many other choices out there! Maybe a top end Hana?
I ran modified 103R’s for about 5-6 years and about 6000 hours a number of years back before moving on to other (retipped cartridges). The ones that I spend the most time with were in aluminum and ebony bodies (as opposed to "housings" which I take can actually mean a true replacement body or something that actually envelops or wraps around the Denon plastic body, which I would not be inclined to use).
I also had a clavellin bodied 103R, which I definitely did not like as much as either the ebony or the aluminum body, both of which sounded very nice and actually quite similar. By comparison, the clavellin body sounded a bit thin and hi-fi-ish.
The modified 103R’s I used were retipped by Peter L at Soundsmith, two with his standard line contact on ruby cantilever and the other with his top of the line OCL on ruby, which was a bit of a bear to set up, but if properly dialled in would offer just a bit more detail than the standard line contact. Not sure if it was worth the trouble.
As I said above, I’ve moved on to different cartridges in the past 4-5 years and have also had both Andy and Steve L do cartridges for me as well. Andy did a couple of Ortofon MC 20 Supers for me, one with boron/microridge and the other with sapphire/microridge, and he also installed a Namiki cantilever with MR (which I provided) onto an Accuphase AC 2 for me after those Ortofons.
More recently Steve Leung installed a couple Namiki Boron/MR cantilevers which I provided him with onto an AT 33 Mono and a SAEC C1. I wouldn’t hesitate to deal with either Steve or Andy in the future; they both did very good jobs for me, as did Peter at Soundsmith. Andy is the king in turnaround time though in my experience if that matters to you.
In the end, I really liked and preferred my aluminum bodied 103R-the ebony was also very good but I ultimately stripped on of the mounting threads on it, which is the drawback of a wood body without metal threads-that will never happen with an aluminum body.
With my experience with modified Denons, I would not personally want to run one that was partially nuded, and or continues to utilize the Denon plastic body in any way.
And ultimately, I’ve come to the conclusion that I prefer boron/MR to just about any other combination of cantilever/cartridge out there after running most of them.
So my preference, if I was in the OP’s shoes, would probably be the ebony body (as long is it’s not wrapping around the existing Denon plastic body, which IMO should be removed completely) with a boron MR. Or an aluminum body (they’re often available cheap on Ebay-cheap being in the $60 range) with boron/MR.
Will require a good phonostage, and the Audiomods arm can be beefed up with headshell weights from the manufacturer I believe to increase effective mass into territory that a modified Denon will like.
A properly modified Denon 103R or 103 with a good body and high quality cantilever/stylus is a pretty nice cartridge and does a lot of things well and some things exceptionally. IMO it will probably be extremely competitive with many new cartridges priced into the $1000-$1250 range.
The price of new cartridges has become ridiculous, along with a lot of other audio items, in the past 5 years or so.
For the OP, at $560 for a modified Denon all in with a boron/MR combo, as long as you have the right tone arm and phono stage, it is going to be a very good value and easily good for 1200 hours if handled well and not abused.
What will your budget allow? Since you're an Odyssey owner, check with Klaus for a new cartridge rec that will pair with your rig. The Kismet monos are great deal dollar to performance wise. He usually has great suggestions for upgrades too.
Ive used both. Contrary to whats been said by another poster; my experience with both with retipping is that they cut the stylus close to the suspension and adhere a new one on. Ive never experience just changing the diamond.
Both retipped Dynavectors for me. Both did good work. Audio memory being as unreliable as it is, my opinion is that retipping is like changing from one good amplifier to another. They wont sound the same as the original, it will be a little different. In each time, I got 97% of what the cartridge sounded like, but its never exactly the same. For 30% of the cost of a new cartridge, Im cool with that.
i dont have a Denon 103 and havent done any cartridge body mods so I cant comment on those. I’ll tell you this, Andy and Steve have told me what to expect from the work, and theyve been reliable with their advice. Steve is friendlier, Andy is leas chattier. Hope that helps.
I've had several good experiences with Andy Kim and would recommend his work without reservations. Andy knows good sound and he understands how a cartridge body affects the sound of the cartridge. I think the mod he does for the Dennon DL103 is ingenious.
You can also ask him about other cartridges he might have available for purchase. Sometimes he has one or two that he's rebuilt and they can be excellent value for $.
Are you using your 2 stage 2a3 SET amp to make these comparisons. For the record I had a grace f9e for over 20 years a nice polite cartridge. For rock and roll the denon will wipe the floor over the F9E. A grado sonata will beat up a F9e in rock and roll and was never design for that. But maybe you do not own a master tape with rock and roll on it.
Tom, I have many amps, but not a 2a3, if you’re talking about my Yamamoto A-08s SET then my choice of tubes are 45s (not 2a3). I slowly upload images on "my audiogon system page" everyday, but at the moment there are stuff I’ve been using before 2019.
Did I even mention F9? I said I like Grace, but I have nearly all Grace cartridges (in my collection of the best MM) from F8 Custom to F14, including F12, LEVEL II and even a signature Grace Asakura ONE (this is LOMC). If you ever heard about any of them (except for F8 and F9) let me know. The F9E is not the best Grace. There are much better Grace cartridges with LC-OFC coil, Beryllium, Boron, Sapphire, Ceramic cantilevers, LineContact and MicroRidge styli. This is what I like from Grace.
I forgot to ask about the pressing facilities and their equipment. I have 3 different labels for some of my favorite albums . Quess what they all sound different. Do not know which one sounded like the master , but I do have preferences in my system.
I guess your post is trolling.
Ok, I do not have a master tapes at home, but I’m in the music industry for over 25 years and I traveled a lot in pre-covid era, I was taking pictures at some of the best independent analog studios in Europe, the closest is Timmion Records in Helsinki (linked files below are from my 35mm film)
I was in the studio at the recording sessions several times. They got this Neumann cutting lathe with "12 inch SME tonearm and Stanton MM cartridge, this huge Studer multitrack and some other equipment to die for. They cut lacquers (master disks) for many labels, they also cut lacquers for myself. I’ve hear fresh masters before and after pressing (Pallas Pressing plant in Germany - one of the best pressing plants today in Europe). I was an executive producer of 8 records pressed in Detroit on Archer’s pressing plant.
Sorry, I do not listen to rock’n’roll, except maybe for a few The Doors albums, I prefer ’70s Funk & Soul music and related stuff.
*** Regarding MM vs MC and the master tapes, I will post this once again for you to read, maybe you will find names you can trust in quotes from the article below:
Another interesting article in the back issue of TAS (The Analog Sound, Issue 40) magazine called "Assessing the State-of-the-Art in Storage Media". In this, J. Tammblyn Henderson reports on a listening session comparing digital master tape, analogue master tape, direct-to-disc lacquer and the "live" mike feed; the report consists of a long conversation among J.Boyk, Keith Johnson, Doug Sax, and J. Tammblyn Henderson himself.
What cartridge could have the "lowest distortion of all," "uncanny" resolution, better than master tapes?
Kavi Alexander, auteur of the remarkable Water Lily Acoustics series of analogue vinyl discs, is monitoring disc production by comparing test pressings to the master tape. What cartridge is he using? Another moving magnet, this time the TECHNICS EPC 100 mk4. But he describes the AUDIO-TECHNICA AT-ML170 as very similar, and very close to the actual sound of the tape. In this comparison, he says, virtually no moving coil does so well; most have seriously apparent coloration.
The contrast between these views of moving magnet cartridges and usual audiophile opinion is striking. On the one hand, we have assurances from these leaders of the High-End recording industry that the best MOVING MAGNETS are very close to the master tape (or live mic feed, for direct to disc) and that they are capable of "uncanny" resolution. On the other hand, we have the prevailing perception, amounting almost to a shibboleth, of the High-End listening community, that only MOVING COILS are realistic in some sense of that word and that moving magnets are incapable of sonic truth. As ASP pointed out in TAS (Issue 70), the audiophile consumer and dealer community is massively arrayed against MOVING MAGNETS cartridges. But experimentation is interesting, and in this case inexpensive. If your audiophile friends give you a hard time, you’ll certainly have a pat answer: you can say if it’s good enough for Kavi Alexander, Jim Boyk, and Doug Sax, it’s good enough for me. The AT-ML170 has tip resonance at 40 kHz, and hence response that extends to that frequency at least. Flanders again: "The ear can’t hear as high as that. Still, it ought to please any passing bat." Seriously, though, such ultra-extension does seem to be associated with exceptional top end clarity. Everyone is entitled to personal tastes, but truth is truth. If you want to hear something like the truth, I still say-no matter what everyone else is using-that you should buy a flat-top cartridge like the AT-ML170 and avoid all MC cartridges with a rising top-end. If the sound of live music is your goal, why would you want to hear a sound which is not only untrue to its source but also is something you are "seldom conscious of live".
**** P.S. I bought all the cartridges from that TAS article and they are all amazing! As I said I like LOMC cartridges too and I have many of them, but I can always recommend an exceptional MM for lower prices than my favorite LOMC cartridges (FR-7fz or FR-7f, Miyabi MCA or Miyabi Standard, Miyajima Kansui ... they are all very expensive). Cheap cartridges like Denon 103 or 103r can’t compete even with cheaper MM, you have to invest another $500-800 to a conical DL103 (and it will be completely refurbished) to make it listenable.
Justin you might want to talk to Jeff at audiomod. I built the 1st or 2nd kit he had years ago. He made head shell weights for the the arms for the 103. Ask him about rock and roll and jazz with the denon 103. I pretty sure he has used or heard them. Also you might google 103 and 103r and see what the of the world has to say. I always find this statement humorous. Well it did not do this or that but boy was it musical. Also if you use 103 or 103r experiment with the loading. I can use any loading in 1 ohm increments and have found lower than 1 to 10 Golden rule to be better with denons.
Chakster how many master tapes do you own. What groups are they and and which albums. What equipment where these tapes made on and what equipment did they play them back on to finalize the finished product. Also what play back equipment did you use in your home to ,play the master tapes back and what equipment did you use to play your album on to know your choices in cartridges sound the same?
Also on your reference system at home does a Decca, grado, ortofon, AT, grace, denon, sound like the master tape. How about your room at your house same condition as the studio. I am assuming you have the same speakers/ headphones as tape studio and equipment. That just reminded me all the studios did not use same equipment so I assume you have list of the studios equipment which produced the master tapes you own, so you can set up the right equipment to AB to the cartridge which is identical to the master tape.
Are you using your 2 stage 2a3 SET amp to make these comparisons. For the record I had a grace f9e for over 20 years a nice polite cartridge. For rock and roll the denon will wipe the floor over the F9E. A grado sonata will beat up a F9e in rock and roll and was never design for that. But maybe you do not own a master tape with rock and roll on it.
Enjoy the ride Tom
PS I forgot to ask about the pressing facilities and their equipment. I have 3 different labels for some of my favorite albums . Quess what they all sound different. Do not know which one sounded like the master , but I do have preferences in my system.
You could get a cartridge like the Ortofon 2m Bronze and then upgrade the stylus to a 2m black down the road. If I recall, you can do the same thing with some lines of AT MM cartridges that share the same body.
Better value is MM or MI with user replaceable stylus, mid or high compliance, advanced stylus profile and the sound like a master tape with any genre of music including rock. Some nice MM cost no more than $700, but what is your budget? I like Grace cartridges (for example).
With any cheap MC you have only 600 hrs - this is more or less a life span of the elliptical tip (and you can’t replace the stylus yourself, so add re-tippers service fee, you already know it's time consuming process, in the end even "cheap" MC is not cheap, so many limitations). I like MC cartridges, but mine are expensive. There are no direct preferences when I compare some of the best MC and some of the best MM/MI. It's better to have both types!
The real question is how do I stay an audiophile while going through a divorce and no longer have the budget I once had. Some days I wish I picked a cheap hobby
@chakster what would you recommend for rock? Want to keep it an MC cartridge.
Better value is MM or MI with user replaceable stylus, mid or high compliance, advanced stylus profile and the sound like a master tape with any genre of music including rock. Some nice MM cost no more than $700, but what is your budget? I like Grace cartridges (for example).
With any cheap MC you have only 600 hrs - this is more or less a life span of the elliptical tip (and you can’t replace the stylus yourself, so add re-tippers service fee, you already know it's time consuming process, in the end even "cheap" MC is not cheap, so many limitations). I like MC cartridges, but mine are expensive. There are no direct preferences when I compare some of the best MC and some of the best MM/MI. It's better to have both types!
So if I understand this correctly you have had this 103 and played it long enough to wear it out. If this is the case what did you like and what did you dislike. What kind of rock are talking about Steely Dan or Metallica or maybe some punk. A lot of rock albums are lean. A stock 103 can help bring them alive. When you retip with the so called up graded cantilever and or stylus you give up some full body sound of the midrange for some detail. So depending on gear, and tastes only you can make that decision. For the record I have 4 dl 103 and 2 103r. 2 retiped and 1 wood body.
Not quite I was able to grab a 103 with a broken stylus for a steal (just the tip of the needed broken off) So I have a broken on I was going to get boron/mr work on with an ebony body which should only cost be about $560 when its all done $80 for the cart, $80 for the body, and $400 for the boron/mr work. Not looking for the Denon sound (although now I am wondering) just looking for a great MC cart that will make me happy with rock and jazz until I can afford something a bit more expensive.
So if I understand this correctly you have had this 103 and played it long enough to wear it out. If this is the case what did you like and what did you dislike. What kind of rock are talking about Steely Dan or Metallica or maybe some punk. A lot of rock albums are lean. A stock 103 can help bring them alive. When you retip with the so called up graded cantilever and or stylus you give up some full body sound of the midrange for some detail. So depending on gear, and tastes only you can make that decision. For the record I have 4 dl 103 and 2 103r. 2 retiped and 1 wood body.
I was scared to death about sending my Clearaudio to Andy. After his amazing service, I would send him another without hesitation. Andy likes to discuss what he is doing and won't just take your money unless he is sure he will help. I did upgrade the canteliver and tip to better quality than originally on there and it was worth it. The fast turnaround is just an added bonus.
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