Power conditioner wire gauge? Serious issue

Elgar still makes those. I've not tried them to see how they compare to their older power conditioners. So I can speak to how well they will work, but I suspect they will work just fine. The ones I've seen allow you more output voltages and also variable line frequency.

Oops Dept.: the word 'can' as in 'So I can speak' was supposed to be 'can't'. Sorry about that.

@atmasphere ours will all cover 47-63Hz, and the 90-290V we need for validation and reliability testing.

is this Elgar thing you mention also called an AC power supply?

@thespeakerdude Elgar still makes those. I've not tried them to see how they compare to their older power conditioners. So I can speak to how well they will work, but I suspect they will work just fine. The ones I've seen allow you more output voltages and also variable line frequency.

Hi. Here we tried a normal 4 mm2 x3 (neutral, hot and Earth) ofc copperwire from the main fuse and 15 mtr to the system, works well. Main fuse is 16 A 250v  

Them we took the same wire and added 2 more runs of the same cable = 3x4mm2 = 12 mm2, nothing else changed and it was way better. 
 

Bigger more calm soundstage and more dynamic especial in the bas.

why? No idear but maybee the transients in the Music demands much more current 

in Pico second or the 12mm2 actually works as instans powerstore but it works.

regards

@atmasphere , is this Elgar thing you mention also called an AC power supply? I signed quite a few requisitions for AC power supplies for the EE lab and reliability lab. Keysight was one of the brands we bought. I cannot remember the other. We were lucky to pick up I think 5 nearly new from a company that was going under. We sell worldwide so we need to be able to generate any supply voltages our customers may use both for design, and reliability testing.

@atmasphere     Thank you for this detail.  You have the knowledge of these things and your posts are very informative.

I have gone the path of reconfiguring the power supply in my home and I am happy with the sound I get from a fairly upmarket system.  I sometimes wonder what improvement power conditioners might achieve, but at my age I might not hear it.

Besides, even PS conditioners would probably have trouble powering my Krell KRS200s, upgraded by Krell to 400w per side.  They draw power like room heaters.  But I won't be parted from them.

Elgar seems really cool, any comparable conditioners out there? It seems to be a well thought out device and most of the devices these days lack the ability to understand what the hell is going on inside them. They all sound so fancy but fail to really explain themselves very well. 

Since the action of conditioning the power must consume some of it, the conditioners of which you speak presumably have power supplies of their own to make good the loss.

@clearthinker

They do.

The PS Audio, if I understand correctly, employs a low distortion oscillator that gets amplified by the power amp inside and then drives a power transformer. To keep the power draw of the device down they are probably using a control transformer for this task.

In the Elgar, there is also a low distortion 60Hz oscillator. It is synchronously locked to the AC line. The AC power goes through an enormous isolation transformer. This transformer has a set of windings for the power supply of the built-in power amp. The main output of the transformer is compared to the oscillator. A difference voltage is thus created and amplified by the power amp. The output of the power amp is applied to a feedback winding on the transformer. In this way the output of the unit is kept low distortion (no harmonics, especially the 5th which is the most problematic). The output voltage of the power amplifier is also used to 'buck' the isolation transformer, providing boost or decrease as needed. In this way its also able to regulate the line voltage without current limiting. Pretty cool!

In both cases the active circuitry draws power of its own. Care is taken to minimize the power draw; regardlesst does not rob voltage from the output in either case.

We used a PSAudio 20Amp unit at AXPONA last year. The hotel line voltage got down to 110V or less at times but our voltage in our room was always at exactly 120V.

@jumia "It's about impedance along the way and no one seems to understand that"

I would add more functions such as removing odd/even mode harmonics, noise, and isolation as well. 

@atmaspheres30 

Thank you.  I know you have knowledge of these things.

Since the action of conditioning the power must consume some of it, the conditioners of which you speak presumably have power supplies of their own to make good the loss.

You speak of 'no voltage drop'/  Agreed, we don't want voltage drop, the power supply companies give us enough of that (entirely free of charge).  But neither do we want capacity drop that limits the watts the audio amp can draw.

All this can be easily accommodated if the power conditioner manufacturer publishes accurate measurements of the voltage and kW output for given inputs.

Buy a Kill-a-watt meter and put your mind at ease. You'll most likely find that you are pulling way less amps than the wire can handle and have a very high MoS.

Several years ago I measured my entire system through one of these and was just under 5 amps full tilt with mono amps and tube preamp, etc.

P3 P4400 Kill A Watt Electricity Usage Monitor (amazon.com)

All power conditioners steal power.

@clearthinker

This isn't entirely correct. A good power conditioner will do nothing of the sort.

Many 'conditioners' are passive devices and so probably do limit current (and so have a voltage drop) but if the conditioner is an actual bona fide conditioner, it will not only clean up the power but it will also insure that the output voltage does not sag and current (up the limit of the conditioner) will not be limited.

There are very few examples of actual power conditioners in high end audio. PS Audio probably makes one of the better ones out there.

There is a company called Elgar that made real power conditioners a long time ago (they got out of that market in the early 1980s). Their conditioners had guaranteed distortion specs and regulated the AC line voltage. They made some that could handle 28 Amps! This means your entire room could have clean power. If you run across an Elgar it will likely need refurbishment- new filter capacitors in its power supplies and so on. They are built for 24/7 service and use a sophisticated system to insure that the AC they produce is clean with no voltage drop.

@clearthinker 

Right on! Thanks for your response.

😀

@mastering92

Thank you.  You have answered your own question.  As you say, power conditioners need power to function and this power has to come from the wall, therefore reducing the power that is passed on to the audio power amplifiers.  Also as you say, the amount of power consumed by the conditioner will vary according to its design.  All I am saying is that the net power leaving the conditioner needs to be comfortably sufficient to power the amplifier.

We are in agreement.

It's not about the ability to allow the product to function.

It's about impedance along the way and no one seems to understand that.

@clearthinker

All power conditioners steal power.

Can you explain this?

Are you suggesting that power conditioners can degrade a specification - such as "power factor" ? Therefore, limiting power delivery to audio components?

Power conditioners can use quite a bit of power on their own just to function. Complex designs, large transformers and MOVs (Metal Oxide Varistor, old and cheap tech). Some on the market can use 20 watts plus. That’s enough for a stand-alone CD player.

The power conditioner I own only requires 1 Watt to do its job. Proprietary USA-made design. Over the years, I have found the following to be true:

Power conditioners that require a lot of electricity to work behave more like amplifiers, rather than power filters. Dynamics and overall system performance can be harmed by this.

@vthokie83   @jumia 

All power conditioners steal power.  You need to make absolutely sure that the power exiting the conditoner is still more than sufficient to drive your power amps.  This will be a particular issue with big amps that draw a lot of power -  1.6kW a side for my big old Krells.  The sound will be far more degraded if there is not enough power than if there is a bit of noise left on the line.

Vthokie83

I had a Panamax conditioner and found that it stole power from the amplifiers. Now using a new conditioner which doesn't restrict voltage.  If you plug directly into the wall with an amplifier there is always noise coming through if the amplifier can't get rid of it.  Plus using precious dedicated outlet spots for the gear is difficult to juggle unless you're willing to commit your wall to an outlet festival.

Lots of good outlet suggestions you have. up the road I can see furutech in my future. 

In my system, I have 2 12 guage dedicated lines (one for power and one for signal components). I do not condition the power amplifier, as it sounds MUCH more lively and transient not going the Panamax M5300 PM power conditioner.

I do HIGHLY suggest quality recepticles (not just hospital grade). Furutech GTX-D is what I am running right now, butt also had great sound from Oyaide R1 (NOT the SWO series), Cardas, and PS Audio...though the PS Audio is the worst of the lot, but still an improvement.

🙄

@jumia 

"variations in Sonic transmissions are the result of tiny changes in electrical impulses which perform so much better with the least amount of resistance"

Yet another example of unverified pseudoscience.

Take no notice.  There's so much of it here.

@allanblissett I just did the math.  I find 18 milliohms difference to be closer to accurate.  I think 31 mOhms would be the total R for 10' of 12 gauge. 

My math is based on this chart:

I recently upgraded my dedicated 20 amp line from my panel  to the outlet,  to 12 gauge from 14. Also changed the outlet from a hospital grade to a PS Audio. 

It was a good improvement,  but now I still have another 10 ' of 14 gauge power cord running from the outlet to my Brickwall conditioner,  so now you all have me wanting to change that leg to 12 gauge, to reduce my resistance by .0324 Ohms ?.

When will  it end, maybe I should  just bypass the tiny fuse wire also.

It's hard for me not to hear a difference. Just believe your ears and nothing else. Some sound better, some the same and some worse. It is fun to experiment, heck sometime I get my wife involved.

I I am truly amazed at the amount of people that think that a different power cord can make a difference. It saddens me that the people that make these power cords 

I am truly amazed how people with functioning ears in this hobby cannot hear a difference in power cords 🤷‍♂️. It’s either ears not functioning properly (I.e cannot hear), or never tried any power cord. My advice: abort abort abort 

Does anybody remember underwriters laboratories? The manufacturers have to send their consumer electronics to underwriters laboratories and have everything tested. Yes that would include power cords. There’s a UL stamp right on them. All these aftermarket cords are not approved by the UL. If your house burns down because of one of these chords, you’re out of luck. I contracted a bunch of construction work at a place that regulated gas appliances many years back. It’s just like the underwriters laboratories. They test stuff for every possible stupid thing that consumers can do to staff. I can only imagine the torture tests that they put these electronics through  Which would include things like but not limited to putting more electricity through them than they’re supposed to ever see. I I am truly amazed at the amount of people that think that a different power cord can make a difference. It saddens me that the people that make these power cords  Know this and take advantage of their fellow man may not have been in science class the day that we learned about electricity. As far as I’m concerned, the people that bother the manufacturers of these so-called power conditioners deserve to have their time wasted. It seems like a couple times a week , somebody post a thread like this. It’s been three years that I’ve been hanging around this forum and it just goes on and on and on. 

The thing we all need to remember is that it is about the music not about the (electrical) science. There are so many things that can’t be explained by science. The main one being how we hear improvements in sound quality. Can it really be measured? As has been said before, "maybe we do not have the proper scientific equipment to measure"?

Anyway, Jumia I go with what sounds the best to me. And to me, larger gauge wire running from the breaker box through the power cord, power conditioner and finally to our equipment has always sounded better to me.

Now as has been stated there are also many other factors to be considered in improving sound quality. But starting with the basics you are right on.

ozzy

If you have a hair dryer or food processor this makes sense but variations in Sonic transmissions are the result of tiny changes in electrical impulses which perform so much better with the least amount of resistance, or impedance for those who want to be technically correct.  

So anywhere along the food chain that you impede the electrical flow can be detrimental to what you hear if your system is good enough to allow you to perceive differences. And this is what's being evaluated herein

@clearthinker +100 to:"the wire gauge needs ONLY to be thick enough to carry the current being drawn by the component to which it is connected"

end load in the AC power line typically is a power transformer, which has primary and secondary winding (primary gauge is up 100m long with high gauge), anf total effective resistance limits max current of power delivery network for that particular load. amp/pre/etc have primary winding resistance in the range of 0.2..50Ohms, which is significantly higher than ANY power cabe’ discussed. power transformer's resistance sums with protection fuse and internal wiring, which adds resistance to the AC power line as well.

I was having kind of a shitteh day. So, I want to thank you guys for lifting my spirits with this udder (yes udder) BS.

Regards,

barts

And the wire gauge from the IEC inlet to the power supply is at most 14ga and is usually 16 or 18ga. Not to mention the fuse element is equivalent to a 20ga solid conductor.

I use 10/3 Romex for one reason only: the conductors are pre-twisted in the sheathing and that goes a long way into reducing common mode noise. I steer away from 2-wire Romex because the conductors are parallel and flat, making them a very efficient RFI antenna.

@erik_squires "I swear to my dark goddess, my last job was doing cloud IT architecture for government and the powers-that-be insisted we use caches."

Caches don’t make anything faster unless there are other bottlenecks in the system. And yes, I realize you know this.

 A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Most people know just enough to be absolutely, completely wrong. Particularly in the IT industry. Best of luck ;)

Perhaps before ripping out sheet-rock, drilling new holes, and imagining copper lugs in the fuse box are better than aluminum, rent a power-meter. plug in your amp(s) and see how much current it's actually pulling.  Go ahead, crank that volume up to 0.0 db and play Carmina Burana.

Then check if it's within the bounds of the wiring already in place.  If it is, then you're in good shape.   If your voltage varies a lot, perhaps a conditioner makes sense, but also consider a pure sine-wave UPS which guards expensive equipment against transient spikes and avoids replacing expensive equipment.  You can get a nice one that will work for almost any purpose for under $300.

The description of this being a serious issue, a huge problem with profound consequences is hyperbolic and overwrought.  I can assume that every other potential issue in your room and system have been thoroughly worked out?

@jumia 

Does your system sound better plugged into the wall, or through your power conditioner?  A thief breaks into my house by breaking down my front door, so I buy a much sturdier door and place a motion detector in the front room.  Next, the thief breaks into my house through my back door.  What I want is a secure house and while concentrating on one aspect of security, I ignore the other factors.  You don’t need to call the manufacturer of your power conditioner.  You just need to listen with and without the conditioner.  If next, you question if your conditioner, or another would be better in your system, then listen to both in your system.  Many dealers will loan with deposit, or sell with return privileges.  This isn’t rocket science and none of our opinions are relevant.  Your ears are all that you need.

This is another classic -- always fun to watch the back and forth.

This issue can be broken down into two separate areas.

1. House wiring safety. What size wiring needed is determined by the amperage of the circuit breaker used for that circuit in the panel. A 15 amp breaker needs 14 gauge wiring or bigger. A 20 amp breaker needs 12 gauge or bigger wire. Note that the electrical code contemplates that continuous use of the circuit (hours or more) won't draw more than 80% of the circuit's capacity. (That's why electric car charging circuits require a 40 amp circuit to power a 32 amp charger for example.) The code is mainly concerned about you not burning your house down or shocking someone.

2. The other issue is audibility. Many audiophiles suffer from the disorder that "if this much is good, more MUST be better." Combine that with our psychological ability to hear what we want to hear and some will not be happy until they have 4 gauge wire all the way to the socket on the back of their gear.

Kenjit by the numbers:

1 - Kenjit brings up non-issue

2 - Thoughtful helpful people waste their time writing thorough explanations why it’s not an issue.

3 - Kenjit pretends he can’t read

Is this a kenjit thread? 

Greetings on a (mostly) peaseful Sunday morning.

I’m going to jump in here as a highly enthusiastic premium power delivery supporter. This includes, but not limited to, beefy cables from the electrical panel, premium (audiophile) power cords, upgraded wall outlets, well-designed power conditioner/surge/distribution centers and, do I dare drop the "F-bomb" here??? ....... F-U-S-E-S!!! Yes, I’m guity of all the above. I even had the audacity to tear my power center apart, rip out all the OEM wiring and installed audiophile cables and audiophile outlets. Yes, admittedly, I even spent real money on the 7 audiophile fuses installed in my system. I’m hopeless.

So, it’s probably a good time to revisit the quote of the day:

"The most annoying thing about this forum is the volume of nonsense spouted."

Prepared to be annoyed.

To address the OP’s question directly, I would first access the quality of the power conditioner AND it’s attached power cable. It is not uncommon for those devices to ship with attached power cords that aren’t, uh, very good.

I would suggest, if possible, bypass your power center and plug your basic components directly into the wall outset. Depending on the complexity of your system and number of outlets available, this may not be possible. This is a good way to determine the effects (positive or negative) of the power center on the sonics of your system. I’d also suggest that you spend some time picking the right power cables. And, audition a power center with removable PC and install your newly-discovered favorite power cable from the wall outlet TO the power center. Of, if you love your power center, consider hacking the unit by internally wiring your (newly discovered) power cable.

Listening tests will determine the quality of the sum of ALL things used throughout your power delivery system. My guess is the importance of the gauge will become a non-factor. You ears will have pointed you in the right direction.

Mazian

ozzy

Kudos for understanding my concern.

It is true the devices will continue to work despite varying gauge wire but that's not the point here.

Will use of a 14 or 16 gauge wire within a power conditioner lessen the benefit when a 10 or 12 gauge wire is used elsewhere???

I think this issue has profound consequences and should be taken very seriously buy all those who install 10 gauge dedicated circuits in their systems.

This week I will be contacting the two Power conditioning companies that I own components from to find out exactly what they do and will share when I learn. 

I swear to my dark goddess, my last job was doing cloud IT architecture for government and the powers-that-be insisted we use caches. In these specific cases they didn’t do anything but take up 100’s of gigabytes of RAM which got paid to a cloud provider, but they were convinced they needed them. They were leftovers from when they were trying to fix other problems. Now they were just expensive holes soaking up taxpayer dollars, but they loved those caches.

What we need is a power conditioner with 4 gauge to compensate for all the low gauge wire used before. 

🤣

@carlsbad   Thank you for your opinion.  I will continue to post mine.

No doubt you will explain why it is necessary to spend money on larger power cords than are required to carry the specified current.

jumia,

Too me, because I am deep minded that the power feeding our systems is so very important, I would want heavier gauge wire inside the power conditioner. 16 gauge is pretty weak. Not sure what is customary but a power conditioner that handles power amps or large drawing current should have at least 12 gauge up front handling the incoming power.

Perhaps branching out from there to lesser power draw components like Dac's etc.  smaller gauge would be ok.

Now, I don't have any hi-tech education supporting this just my years of experience.

ozzy

Have a peaceful Sunday everybody.

I don’t think you have anything to worry about. 

@clearthinker This is America with free speech.  You are welcome to your opinion and you are welcome to state it as often as you wish. But your assessment of power cords is wrong and I hope you stick by what you said and make the above the last time you post it.    Jerry

Very

@carlsbad  you are  ery right in your assessment  of power conditioners