There’s no better value and no one as willing to make bespoke speakers out there than Fritz and these forums treat his speakers as if they cost $200K. They don’t. They are remarkably affordable and yet potential customers put him through the absolute ringer, asking for custom features, going through 2 or 3 models of home auditions and maybe not even buying any of them.
Look, you buy what you want to buy, but I think not enough credit is given to the man or his speakers in terms of the overall value proposition and I think this is a disservice overall. If you write a 5 page review, please keep this very much in mind that you are not reviewing Wilson or Focal's flagships. Maybe he doesn't deserve quite the same scrutiny.
Very good point Guppy , that was exactly what I was trying to convey the Xover being the heart or brain of all Loudspeakers That use a Xover to dictate in part it’s resolution and refinement and the Higher Quality selection of Xover parts is instrumental in the final outcome and a builder get parts at least 30% off retail since it is no extra cost in labor at time of build just same charge the retail price of the cost into the SE cost ,at minimum of 10-15% increase in resolution and fidelity. That is my point and All I have nothing to add to the conversation .
That is a very good suggestion Audioman 58, no need to check your self-awareness. If Fritz offered an optional special edition for $500. then it would only enhance them from a value standpoint. I think many potential customers who are spending $3500. for a pair of monitors that might be worth $5,000. or $6,000., would certainly spend an extra well spent $500. for monitors that would compete with monitors in the 10K range. In any event I believe Fritz will customize his speakers which is a great advantage of working with a very small company.
I've met Fritz at several audio shows. He is a very nice man. I enjoyed listening to his speakers. I would compare them to Harbeths (smaller ones). I am not in the market for mini-monitor type speakers but I can recommend them based on what I heard.
At the end of the day Fritz speakers will have to compete with other makes at similar price points. I'm sure that Fritz will be very aware of this. It's probably in his head morning noon and night.
My guess is that Fritz is no longer that worried. He has been in business, successful, with people still talking about and buying his speakers for, what, 30+ years? I'll be lucky if anyone talks about what I do 10 or 20 years from now, let alone 30.
FYI, the 7" ScanSpeak mid-woofer are in fact 6.5" and they are among the best in the world. Not only are they very good sounding in the bass to mids, they also have amazing extension in the right cabinet.
There’s a reason why they’ve appeared often in statement products. Also, in case anyone is trying to gauge them by the specs, the specs lie. The measured frequency response is actually better than spec, a fact I’ve confirmed with a couple of speaker makers with the ability to measure.
@b_limo fwiw, I like those particular 7" ScanSpeak mid-woofers quite a bit, used them another custom rebuild recently. Very musical sounding. The new owner of these custom built speakers really likes them a lot.
Agree, Fritz could charge more. The return comes from his customers and their regular referrals and great praise. Seems like it's a Win-Win as you well know - as good as anyone does. Thumbs up, cool setup u have. Keep us posted on the new Belles after 250hrs :)
Just for the record, that Ara kit is $1900 with the BE tweeter, not $1400. You’re also getting a 6” SB Scoustics driver vs a 7” Scan Speak Driver. I’d rather have an understated, rectangle box built and braced like a brick, with gorgeous Veneer on it than some trapezoidal, orange peeled Chinese cab. And then there’s Fritz’s crossovers, which are awesome, which you can’t build because your not awesome.... Fritz uses probably close to $100 in no rez for his 2 Cabs, that kit comes with cheapo filling.
Another thing to consider is resale. Fritz speakers don’t come up often but when they do, they hold there value really well. And have you ever punched a screwdriver through a driver screwing them in? Insta extra port! When you start damaging $400 tweeters during assembly your saving go right out the window.
Come to think of it, your right Kenjit, Fritz really should be charging more.
Did anyone have a chance to listen to both Fritz speakers and the new Philharmonic BMRs: http://philharmonicaudio.com It seems they are competing in the same class so it would be interesting to read how they compare.
The good news is, Fritz gets lots of praise and great respect by owners and reviewers abound. His try/buy offering helps solve a thousand questions. Good for him and it makes for many happy customers.
Apple might want us to believe that their phones are the best, but the data doesn't lie. Not a single Apple phone can make it through a full day without an emergency recharge trip.
And that's when they're new!
Yet people still queue up to buy them.
I understand your concerns about value and I believe that hierarchy goes along something like this.
Buy used Buy in kit form Buy at a show Buy direct Buy from a dealer.
Each has its pros and cons.
At the end of the day Fritz speakers will have to compete with other makes at similar price points. I'm sure that Fritz will be very aware of this. It's probably in his head morning noon and night.
Therefore I doubt whether he would deliberately jack up his prices for the sake of easy increased profits. The main result of that would be to put his designs up against stiffer competition.
As far as I know loudspeaker manufacturers are not in collusion trying to artificially maintain exorbitant prices.
Rather the opposite as recent designs from the likes of KEF, Adam, Q Acoustics, Tekton, Walsh etc seem to indicate.
Maybe Fritz is simply unable to offer them at a lower price, though I agree it's a bit much if he did claim they were the best in the world.
It's usually really tough in the business world and sentiment means very little.
Maybe we should count our blessings that we are on the consumer and not the retail side.
[@novice] "What good reason can you give to buy the fritz when you can buy better for a fraction of the cost?"
Got 5 good reasons. Experience matters.
Until a novice has -
1. Built them, 2. heard them, 3. compared sound, 4. in a group setting, 5. with experienced listeners...
...It’s all just talk until then.
Kinda like trying to convince oneself that frozen pizza with the same ingredients heated up at home is as good as a hot fresh pizza cooked in a really good pizza oven made at a real pizzeria. No comparison.
Right on Duke! Besides that, the cabinets on the Madisound speaker had cabinet walls only 18mm thick, and Fritz uses a special crossover. Customers pay for his thought and experimentation, and the results speak for themselves.
If you know of someone who buys parts and builds new quality speakers for FREE at no labor cost, please share their name and contact info.
You are completely missing the point. The point is I gave you an example of an alternative to the fritz speakers. The cabinets come preassembled. The labor involved is between 15 minutes to an hour depending on your experience. The speakers are just as high quality if not better. They use the highest quality parts and the finish is as good as a commercial product.
What good reason can you give to buy the fritz when you can buy better for a fraction of the cost?
Are you saying that audiophiles should pay someone an additional $2000 to assemble the kit, if they are not confident to do it themselves?
It doesnt matter if Fritz needs to cover his expenses. That is not our problem. Why pay more when you can get it for less?
Kenjit, You have never agreed with someone on a single thing. I feel you are a very difficult person to get along with on and off this forum. Its called capitalism bud. Even the smaller guys need to make a living. The parts to total cost ratio is pretty damn good. Why don't you buy that madisound kit, put it together once someone shows you how to use a tool and see if it's in the level of one of Fritz's designs. Pretty sure Fritz and a lot of these other guys are doing nothing more than making a descent living. Not gettin rich.. if they are more power to them.
Why don’t you build a kit from Madisound if you have not done so already? It can answer some of your recurring questions.
I’ve sourced parts from Madisound for 22 years and been designing and building my own speakers for 42 years. Came close to resurrecting and building a speaker company at one point. Decided its too costly to do really well in less than 2-3 years. Takes more like 5-10 years or more like you see with the better boutique builders.
You might be confused comparing hobbyists with business.
Hobbyists put no cost on their time and labor of love. Labor is free.
Businesses are in business to make profit, to evolve, and stay in business. There is a cost to doing business.
If you want to save money, buy good used speakers, recondition them. It’s cheaper, may be an option for you.
REQUEST: If you know of someone who buys parts and builds new quality speakers for FREE at no labor cost, please share their name and contact info.
These are a fraction of the cost of the fritz and use top end drivers. They are $1400.
The braced cabinet design is slanted and has an unusual faceted baffle. It looks much cleaner and professional than the fritz cabinet. The finish on the ARA speakers are high gloss and look very good.
If you arent concerned about the high gloss finish you could get cabinets made for less than the $700 Madisound charges you.
As you can see, Fritz speakers are overpriced when you consider the alternatives.
@decooney Your answer may be the best one I’ve ever read on this common question. It is exactly the kind of answer that makes me wish Audiogon could have a FAQ page in each category.
@decooney Great post. I am guessing that the margin is small. On top of all of those things, you get the occasional customer like a certain one that everyone here knows. You know, the nightmare customer that no one wants to have to deal with. The one that would make you question your sanity for doing something you love doing. Something you do far better than that customer could ever dream of doing.
I’d like to add that I’ve looked inside the Carreras and Carbon 6’s and they both use a good amount of no rez and the are braced really well. They are very solid and pass the knuckle test no problem.
Fritz explained that the cost of doing any rounded cabinets and the cost would go up substantially. He also said that he had experimented with various materials and cabinets that were completely inert and he felt that these cabinets had the best blend of being inert but still alive enough to impart the music with life.
Fritz’s speakers are fun to listen to. They are not overly bright but yet they have great detail. The Carreras are so special that listening becomes an occasion. I’m in hifi heaven with the Belles Aria and the DSP I have going on now. I could go on for days about how delicious these sound but I’d rather you just have Fritz build you a pair and then you can see for your self!
[@any-novice] "Total cost of drivers is $1300. Cost of speakers is $3500. So how much is he actually making? Can anybody answer that without insulting me?"
----------------------------------
Yes. Not making much.
Drivers are part of the cost equation, not the total cost.
Missing overall R&D research time on a build. For some it's years.
Missing the crossover design, parts for the "right" design.
Missing the labor time to build and test the crossovers.
Missing the cabinet R&D time and labor cost to design it right.
Missing the wood and veneer materials costs and storage costs.
Missing LABOR time to cut/assemble/build the pair of cabinets.
Missing the time to lay up veneer or other cosmetics for cabinets.
Missing the time to fix or redo something on the finish, it happens.
Missing stock of internal wiring, terminals, solder, costs, etc.
Missing wiring, terminals, soldering time for assembly of speakers
Missing costs of a facility to build and store materials, speakers
Missing costs of boxes, fillers, packaging materials and storage.
Missing the costs of electricity, cooling/heating of a facility.
Missing costs of tools, saws, blades, machinery, maintenance $
Missing shared property tax costs if you own the facility and land.
Missing time and labor $ for packing and shipping costs $.
Demos cost $. All sunk cost $. Who absorbs these return costs...
[Add] glue, and several things probably missed here, $
Missing the time-cost $ answering everyone's questions for FREE.
Time is $. Remember boutique builders, where respect is due.
Caution: Only brave souls with extra savings $ need try to build and sell quality "value" speakers for public consumers in a boutique setting. It takes a very special person to do this long term for the audio community.
>>Respect to those who do it well and stay in business<<. Go Fritz!
The problem with Fritz speakers is the wooden boxes they use are no better than a DIY job. If you want high end speakers surely the wooden box needs to be elevated in quality too? If you look at other high end speakers they do use more advanced boxes even if they are made of mdf.
I've had a pair of Fritz Rev 7 "SE's" for several years. They're just like the Rev 7 on the website but with a 4 ohm Scanspeak midbass driver that's the same model as the regular Rev-not sure if he made these again. I stream TIDAL through Roon or use stored flac files, running these through an Allo USBridge Signature into a Schiit BiFrost multibit dac then into an Acurus L10 linestage and then an Acurus A250 amp, both custom modified by Ken Ealey to change them into quite different amps than stock. The preamp is jfet/mosfet. The amp is all bjt's (but with a jfet front end to eliminate the blocking cap) and is dual mono with huge power caps and massive damping factor. Anticables for speakers, Blue Jean's for IC's. I think my choices show I ignore the prestige, cachet, and pageantry that some others get caught up in. Don't get me wrong, it'd be cool to be able to dabble in high end audio but I'm just not in that income bracket. So I've tried to choose wisely to come up with a system that can still produce music that moves me. My system sounds much better than most smaller systems I (used to) hear at audiofest, as well as some of the larger ones. I think the key is the Fritz speakers. I'll be experimenting with new amps again soon but the speakers will stay. I've never had a complaint with them. They take all the power I care to throw at them but have great delicacy and detail as well, even without a beryllium tweeter. They warm up my (currently pretty neutral) amplification very nicely, have a detailed soundstage, and in combo with the amp they always have people looking for the subwoofer. Not that the bass is bloated or anything, it's tighter than a...well never mind. I love to play music for my friends that have spent years rotating through tons of expensive gear and hear them tell me honestly that it sounds kick ass. And it always starts with "wow, Fritz sure does make some great speakers!" I've heard the Carreras at RMAF and they are spectacular. Maybe someday. I just wanted to verify for the skeptics that Fritz makes some amazing products, all giant killers, and is well worth checking out. Unless you're a giant lover, that is.
So, the point of this thread is how inexpensive Fritz speakers are, and how good they are an how others still unfairly compare them to speakers much more expensive. This post which I have partially quoted is the perfect example of the type of reviewer/audiophile who forgets what the prices are already. And by the way, there’s a lot here I would debate on the merits of good ideas if Fritz speakers cost 2x as much as they did, but they don’t so I’m just going to look in awe at this post and it’s complete lack of self awareness.
Fritz use top grade drivers ,my only complaint in the past say 4 years ago was the Xover parts were not what I considered = to the drivers ,and I am not speaking Duelund ,instead of a magnet over wire sledge hammer inductor use Jantzen open core they are not that much more ,mills resistors he uses are good
Fritz use top grade drivers ,my only complaint in the past say 4 years ago was the Xover parts were not what I considered = to the drivers ,and I am not speaking Duelund ,instead of a magnet over wire sledge hammer inductor use Jantzen open core they are not that much more ,mills resistors he uses are good ,and use at least say a clarity CSA,Cmr, or actually value for money the Polish Millflex copper oil paper mylar caps not that expensive and on par with Jupiter Copperfoil , and use wbt gold copper connectors retail less then $75 a speaker wholesale $50 add $ 500 to the speaker it is a substantial audio upgrade .I modded them and they sounded great , I traded them in when I bought a larger Sonus faber speaker , Fritz should offer a SE model ,with all premium parts as I mentioned below, the best resistors period are Path audio , less then $30 each vs $4 for caddock or Mills ,it’s funny most $50k+ speakers don’t even use them . just an observation myself and other audiophiles would pay a little extra to get a SE speaker maxed out .
Haven't had the pleasure of hearing his speakers but I can vouch that he's a great guy. I called him with a question and we spoke for hours about all things hi-fi. He struck me as a true artisan.
Fritz speakers are some of the best out there. I heard them at the California Audio Show. He uses the best components available and marries them to beautiful cabinetry. I had the honor of meeting Fritz at the show and he happened to be the nicest person. He asked me if I had listened to a lot of speakers at the show. Then invited me to come to their suite to listen to some real music. What a treat it was! No bull, these speakers speak for themselves.
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