Luxman or Rogue work really well.
Integrated amplifier for Fritz Speakers
Hi All,
I started a discussion about "Monitors for 14 x 20 Room" back last November. There was a lot of good advice and Fritz Speakers kept being positively mentioned.
At the time, I thought WAF would be low for a larger sized monitor. Now I think I have the stage set for Fritz speakers and am thinking either new Carreras or Carbons.
I would prefer an integrated amp because it is one less piece of equipment io place in in a constrained space.
I would also prefer solid state to solid state, in order to have this system as problem free as possible.
Your ideas and suggestions, please
Dsper
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Also , how well treated or not your room is may influence which Fritz speaker to get… the Carrera or the Carbon. my room is just a tiny bit smaller than yours but with pretty high ceilings … no traditional damping installed but lots of diffusion from objects and probably some absorption from couch, wool rugs, curtains etc. I went with the Carbon 7’s powered by an AVA Set120 and it’s been a superb pairing. I realize that’s not an integrated …though AVA does make a version with a built-in passive attenuator and multiple inputs. Others have had success with the Pass Int-25. |
Thanks for the ideas! @ soix probably $1500 give or take. Thought maybe I could find a good used piece. I was wondering about Parasound or possibly Anthem. Maybe a class D? @ j_andrews can you share how you judge the sound differences between the Carbons and Carrera I would have the same setup as your room but with 8 foot ceilings @jeffrey125 would love to go with tubes but don't want any hassle in a location that is far from my stash. I have a pair of Quicksilver horn monos that would probably work. But also figured an integrated would take up less space.
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i haven’t heard the Carreras so I can’t actually comment on them. However , others have said the Be tweeter can be very energetic even though Fritz’s implementation is also said to keep things natural and relaxed . So, I would recommend calling John and speaking to him about your room and what music you’ll be playing and how loud, etc. He’s a super guy and will help you sort things out without giving you a hard sell. My room is 13x18x9 with big openings on 2 of the walls. I also agree with @chayro … you can pair them pretty effectively with a lot of amps. They are easy to drive so you could start with what you have and then upgrade the amp later. My Carbons also sound very good with a $380 Vista Audio Spark. At your budget, I would at least take a look at the Alstine SET120 Control amp.
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I owned Carrera BE's for over three years and have owned speakers with the same drivers as the Carbons. Which speaker model you chose will determine the best amp for you as their voicings are not the same. As was recommended several times just call John(Fritz} and ask his advice. He has personally owned and used integrated amps from Belles, Kinki, Van Alstine and others for SS but he does seem to prefer tubes with the Carrera's in his own system. |
The Belles Aria integrated would be high on my list in your price range used. Here’s one, but he’s the second owner so I’d make him pay shipping/fees at his asking price. |
fritz’s speakers come with a very high end be tweeter or a more forgiving (but less resolving) cloth dome tweeter the carrera be and its ilk are best used with uber smooth refined solid state, such as hegel, pass, ayre, primare i-30, and so on the lesser models such as carbon et al can be used with more typical solid state -- belles a/b, marantz, rotel, bryston and that ilk |
Lots of good advice here. Thanks everyone!
@jjss49 and @j_andrews I appreciate the sound characterization of the Fritz speakers. This was the sort of info I was hoping to obtain. I had a pair of Tyler Speakers with cloth dome tweeters and they were a bit too laid back for my tastes. I might find the same situation with the Carbons... This is going to be work! I appreciate everyone's advice to think this through a bit. For example, my First Watt F7 amp paired with Klipsch Forte iv's resulted in an enjoyable listen but the "I am here" presence of the Forte's is lost. I certainly should speak with Fritz again. He and I talked last fall when I was inquiring whether he still built any towers (he does not). And we have not even discussed the source yet. Due to space constraints, I need to think CD player and not separate DAC and transport, so another opportunity... Thanks, again!
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I'm glad someone with a lot more experience and higher post count mentioned it before me (soix), but I have yet to find a speaker that the humble 75W Belles Aria couldn't drive. In fact I demoed the Fritz Carbon 7 with the Belles and it was a great pairing. In speaking with Fritz, it was apparent that he also loves David Belles' products. |
My experience with Fritz speakers is that he, like me, makes mellow and laid back speakers, especially in the mid-treble regions. I like it a lot and find it very natural and easy to listen to for long periods of time. The challenge however is a dark to mellow amp may be too dark, and that's kind of where I hear a lot of Parasound amps, and ICEpower Class D, both of which I've owned and have a positive impression of. I guess it's , yes Parasound is very good but is there an inexpensive amp that will give you a little more color? |
@erik_squires - That's interesting to hear! In my space with my gear, they're quite the opposite. Those Carrera's rock in my acoustically dead living room, and with the right source and gear, they will shake the floor even at moderate volume. I drive them through an MSB S-200 power amp. |
@larsman Fritz have plenty of bass, especially for the size. That's definitely not my concern. The mid and treble is so smooth though that some might find them too laid back, more middle to back of the hall. I worry that a warm sounding amp will go the wrong way, and I do think Parasound is pretty warm. |
Van Alstine 120 Control Amp Review I highly recommend the Van Alstine Set 120 Control Amp. Thirty-day satisfaction guarantee
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i have found the david belles amps to be slightly on the bright side of neutral (this is true even for his wonderful sa30 class a unit, which i have kept), a consistent trait/voicing of his products relative to other serious solid state amps such as ayre, pass, hegel, gryphon, boulder the aria in particular has a certain fine grain and sizzle to the treble... which can be a boon for certain types of speakers with laid back tweeters that overly smooth out the sound |
Just for the hell of it I decided to pair my Fritz Carbons today with a vintage solid state integrated … my 1977 Yamaha CA-2010z, 120 Watts into 8 Ω. Even though I’ve had this amp I haven’t hooked the two up together before . Surprisingly smooth and controlled… despite a relatively low damping factor …and still, lots of presence. If the lovely VU meters are to be trusted , I’m outputting less than 1 watt at more than moderate listening levels (75 dB from my seat) Fun to get a different presentation from my daily (Alstine SET120)
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The specs for the Fritz Carbon state they are 87 dB sensitive, meaning that one watt to one speaker will play at that volume with the measuring microphone 1 meter in front of the speaker in an anechoic chamber. So, not surprising that's what your meters show for the listening volume you reported. All that extra power is for when you listen a lot louder or play music with big dynamic peaks over the average level. |
Yes that’s how it works ! fyi, while the 70’s Yamaha sounded great (and fun), I took it out and put the Van Alstine back in. There’s just a whole order of magnitude of resolution between the two. I know people have had success with Pass xa25 or int-25, though I wonder… would those be maybe too soft for Carbons and better suited to the Carreras? But , my goodness, these speakers really create quite the presentation despite what powers them. So happy with my purchase from Fritz.
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I have Vandersteen VLR CT and the AVA SET 120 control amplifier in my den system (with Naim Uniti Atom preamp/DAC/streamer), which is a great pairing. Really brought those smooth carbon tweeters alive. If you go with the beryllium tweeter, Belles Aria would have great synergy I think. I had a Belles Aria, upgraded to Aria Signature which is in main system currently, paired with Focal 1007 Be standmounts with a beryllium tweeter. I think surprisingly I preferred the $1500 AVA SET 120 over the $4400 Belles Aria Signature with the Vandersteen VLR CT. |
@dsper just re-read your comment about your F7 and Forte IV’s … so surprised to hear that. Are you generally happy with the First Watt F7 otherwise?
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@j_andrews Mixed feelings to be very honest. It controlled the Forte 12 inch woofer but just made the highs too polite. Very smooth sound, but not what i would characterize as liquid. The Forte's can boogie and put you in the room when paired with Don Sachs preamp and amp. YMMV!
also made the tew |
Just wanted everyone to know I appreciated the discerning responses in this thread. I have reread it a couple of times and something new sticks in my brain each time. AVA has been mentioned by several of you. I had spoken with Frank in February and he suggested that I wait a couple of months as they were implementing a change to reduce noise. He was more descriptive than that, but I do not recall the exact terminology, sorry. He also confirmed that there are only silver face plates. Of course, when asked, my wife stated it needed to be a black faceplate. I forgot the "it is easier to beg forgiveness" rule! I have a call into Fritz. I think I generally prefer as much detail as possible from a tweeter. My experience with soft domes is I feel like they are a bit laid back and I am missing something. We'll see what Fritz suggests.
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Hi All, I spoke with Fritz and described my set-up and what speakers I have enjoyed listening to in the in the past. He suggested the Carbons versus the Carreras. A new pair of Carbons arrived today and have been playing for about four CD's worth of music. I simply placed them where a pair of Zu Audio Soul Sixes were running and have not fiddled with placement. About three feet from front wall, ten feet apart, and about eight and a half feet front my ears. In this setup, there is about twenty feet behind me. Using a First Watt F7 amp and Don Sachs preamp. PS Audio MWT and Mojo Audio B4B DAC. Initial thoughts are quite positive. Very easy to listen to. Good bass and detail. They seem a bit fleshier than the Soul Sixes but not quite as warm. Fiddles sound sweet. There is good nuance to the mid range and power to the music. Soundstage is between and behind the speakers. The ten foot span between the speakers is full. I think the treble is a bit muddy at the furthest most extension, just a hint of sibilance. Break in time needed I am sure. This will help dynamics as well, I expect. Their final location will be in a smaller room (20 X 15) and should be able to really fill that space. Will be fun to hear them break in and play with my tube amps as well. In the meantime, my initial opinion is that these are very good speakers. Again, thanks for the advice.
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If the speakers are 10’ apart I’m not sure why you’d sit only 8.5’ from the speakers — that’s even closer than would be considered nearfield listening (i.e. an equilateral triangle). I’d experiment with moving the speakers closer together or your listening seat further back and see what happens. Hey, it’s free so why not? |
@dsper - if those Carbons are new and anything like the Carrerra's I have, in a few hundred hours they will sound nothing like they do now. Mine were pretty ratty sounding with the various frequency ranges sounding unacquainted with each other for well over a month - but eventually they get to where they should be and you've got magic! |
You are correct about the sound changing. I am at about 50 hours and it seems like the treble has suddenly gotten more forward and accentuated...less laid back. |
@dsper - Indeed - when they are performing at the level they will get to, 'laid back' will not be the first phrase that enters your mind. 😁 Enjoy the break-in process - you'll get to that 'Eureka!' moment... |
FWIW, I am finding that higher efficiency, easier to drive speakers are a lot of fun. One is not obsessed with high power amps required to run inefficient speakers, so you can concentrate on the overall sound. For example, I had read about First Watt products and decided to try one. I picked the F7 because I was persuaded that the damping factor of the amp would do a good job driving the Forte iv woofer. It did that but also veiled the presence of the horns in the Fortes. The law of unintended consequences. But the real learning for me is that I am starting to truly listen to what I am hearing. Anyway, the F7 is currently a good match with the Carbons. Interestingly, I can tell when the F7 gets warmed up after being shut off overnight. The sound changes for the better quite dramatically to my ears. I have heard that sort of things with tubes but not so much with solid state. |
Not sure if OP is still looking into getting the Fritz speakers (or anyone else who may be considering) but he just posted a sale on the Carrera’s for $2800...they are typically $3500. $2800 is only $200 more than he’s charging for the Carbon 7’s these days I paid $2600 for my Carbon 7 SE mk ii’s including shipping exactly a year ago.
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Okay Everyone, I need your assistance! The Fritz Carbons are in their final resting place at my wife's inherited home. The front wall is15 feet wide and the side walls are 20 feet long, with a six foot opening on one side. The backs of the speakers are about one foot from the front wall. They are about eight feet apart on either side of a cabinet/electric fireplace that is about twenty inches deep. The speakers are about ten feet from the listening seat. I cannot adjust these logistics. The boss is surprisingly comfortable with the setup as it is...so I will not start a regional conflict. Using a Azur 640 CD player (15 years old), Axiom II passive, and a garage sale Niles 275 amp. Detail is there, bass is there, soundstage is there, and no treble nasties. BUT it sounds sterile. I inserted a Soekris 1421 DAC. No real improvement. Maybe the Azur is not that bad...? What are your suggestions? Is it the source or the amp? Right now, I am listening to my main rig: Zu Audio Soul Sixes (as I argue with myself about Forte iv's {still a bit too "hot"}), 12 gauge copper wire, via PS Audio PMT, Mojo Audio B4B, Don Sachs pre, and First Watt F7. Ice Age interconnects. Sounds great, liquid, and violins are sweet. Nothing fancy. It makes me listen all of the time. Please and thanks! Dsper
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