Picking Speakers 20k-30k

Thanks @ronboco 

I was hoping to replace my 11 year Wilson Benesch Vectors with something American (thus saving on extra cost to import) in the $20-30k range, but the prices are rising so fast that something in that price range is a side step.

With your equipment? Fink Team Kim or Fink Team Borg. For your hard earned money spent, you will know that you have a speaker designed and built by a competent and widely respected engineer. Measures superb, highly flexible, and easy to drive. And the AMT tweeters built by Mundorf to Fink’s design sound amazing.

OP… “But it’s a super-resolving system and lesser recordings have their warts on full display”.

 

This is one of the major themes of high end audio. I struggled with this off and on for thirty years… of my fifty year history in high end audio. This exact issue. Say on one end (1) you have a warm emotional system with poor detail and on the other end you have an ear bleeding - scrape every detail from recordings system. I’m guessing yours is 7 or 8.

 

The biggest determinant is typically the speakers… but in no way the only component… every component contributes. I have nudged this relationship at every stage of upgrading my system. The good news is you can have both.

Having both requires work and money certainly helps. In general everything gets better at larger levels of investment. However some folks love systems that sound like 1 or 2 and some love systems at the opposite end of the spectrum. While lots of money makes equipment quieter, less harsh and more musical… there is still its intended audience.

 

I was into highly revealing planar speakers and high quality solid state equipment which frequently put me too far into the detailed 8 - 9 range.. where all but the best recordings did not sound great. Ultimately i changed directions and I purchased my first set of Sonus Faber speakers which I have been upgrading for the last fifteen years… then I have added all tube electronics. All very carefully curated to move me to say 4 and then with better and better components maintaining that balance. Often you can look at this continuum to be musicality versus detail. My system is detailed and very musical. The product of decades of learning and investment to nail this perfectly for me. All but the very worst recording sound great… detailed, but musical and forgiven.

 

So, you bring up a really central question when building a system. My only recommendation is to go listen to some Sonus Faber speakers (preferably powered by good tube electronics)…. Well beyond your budget is fine. You want to find your target. If that is it… then scale down the speakers to ones you can afford, and over time support them with electronics that nail the balance you want.

I have the KEF Reference 5’s and really like them.  The Reference 5 Meta’s are supposedly better and cost $23,000.

I find the paradigm persona very bright and edgy with the beryllium tweeter and mid-range go listen to the monitor audio platinum 200 or 300 G3 far superior to the paradigm persona much more three-dimensional and enveloping sound stage and way more natural and warm sounding.

@brewerslaw If you are still pondering the idea of DIY. Troels Graveson will be a very good place to see where options for a build can be assessed.

Troels Website has plenty of projects and quite accurate description of the sonic being created.

 I have listened to a Troels Design and class it as the Best Cabinet Design Speaker I have heard in a system used in a home environment. As a ESL user and having heard ESL's as other models as well, the Cabinet Speaker produced to Troels Design was invisible and perceived as being as Transparent as an ESL. 

There is a general consensus about Troels Gravesen Designs, that strongly suggests, a built model for approx' $7-10K will be a Speaker to hold its own in comparisons to Commercial Models using similar drivers, with a Purchase value of $30K and rising, as a five fold outlay is regular seen as the outlay required to surpass a Troels Designed Speaker.  

PMC MB2SE, if you can get a listen you won’t search further.

 

 

Buy higher sensitivity speakers so you can use larger tube amplifiers that will not heat the room up.

It sucks buying lower sensitive speakers which then require massive tube Power to optimize performance.

Spend more money if you can

 

YG Acoustics Summit in their peaks series is the best speaker in the world in the price range you want full stop!

You don't write which type of music you listen to or what type of sound you prefer.

Some brands that have impressed me at shows or dealers and have offerings in the given price range:

Boenicke

Focal

Marten

Devore

Fyne 

Borresen 

After all said and done, I'm with nitrobob, I  would go and listen to Legacy Audio and then write them a check....I have 3 of their systems and love them all. I have the Focus SE in my family room, a pair of Studio HDs in the master bedroom,  and a set of Studio HDs in my lobby at work...Wife loves them, both in looks and sound. Bill is a super guy and will give you great advice.....

If I had to choose B&W 801 D4 Walnut finish. The design and look does it for me. If not those, 2nd option is JBL K2 S9900.  

I'll toss in the usual Verity Audio plug. Nice pair for sale on the Mart right now.

I would give a pair of Audiovector R6 Aretté a serious listen. Or check out a pair of TAD Labs CE1-TX.

Try to audition https://www.linkwitz.com/lx521

Best speaker you'll ever hear at any price. They are not polished pieces of furniture but will disappear when working.

Fink Team Borg or the new Borg Episode 2.

Fyne Vintage 12

Verity Audio Florestan

 

Can’t you hire a home theatre installer to setup your room? Here we’re just talking over text. But there are so many parameters to consider and it starts with a blueprint of the room. There are plenty of speakers under $30k, but they may as well sound like $5k speakers if they’re not setup properly in your room. 

I would recommend listening to 30.7 Maggie’s.  It is all about what you like and the only way to know is to hear them.  If you are open to planars they should at least be on the list to check out.  Everyone has different ideas about what is best for them, if I had the $$$ to move up to your price point I would enjoy the journey and check out the many choices.

Maggies sound good and are a very decent bargain at each model’s respective price level.  However, the OP had some location restrictions that may not suit Maggies (close to the back wall).  I’ve heard them sound quite good when placed closer to the side wall than recommended, but, they do need space to the wall behind.

Don't forget your amplifier output....plus headroom power...

Full range type speakers aka Salon2s etc. need lots of power to create leading edge snap/punch.

This basic concept was given to me last weekend at the T.H.E. Show by a Pass Labs salesman.

"Scotty, I need more power"

"She canna take any more Captain...she's gunna blow"

@kokakolia my current room was set up with input from a dealer coupled with a room analysis from GIK when I added treatments. I believe the room is in decent shape. 

@headphonedreams I listen to a wide variety of music. Looking at my qobuz, the last few listening sessions are Sigur Ros, the National, Johnny Cash, Charles Mingus, Radiohead, Pink Floyd, Hindi Zahra, and Blur. That's pretty normal. Soundwise, I'm hoping for a big soundstage, instrument separation and clarity (probably like everyone here) but a little less clinical and a little more musical than I'm currently achieving. My current system is my first hifi and I was blown away at being able to hear Gilmour's guitar in ways that made me realize there were sections I'd been misplaying for twenty years. I hope to not lose that kind of clarity

@brewerslaw For approx' five years I have been invited to take part in offering  assistance through supplying a set of ears, allowing for a broadened range of assessments on a Bespoke Tonearm Design that I now own.

In the early days I took along owned Tonearms and Vinyl LP's that are inclusive of Pink Floyd's - 'Wish You Were Here' and Roger Water's - 'Amused to Death'.

The continued visits have lead to only needing to bring along the Vinyl LP's and the two above are consistent.

Over the past five years the System has changed Speakers on a few occasions, and one Speaker change that took place approx' a year ago really was capable of showing of the merits of using this particular TA Design in its evolved state.

Other changes to the system has been a Own design Pre-Amp' and Phonostage. Each in use have aided the presentation to take a further Step toward, how does this get surpassed.

Most recently the Troels Gravesen Speakers (Illuminator 7751) were purchased and in use at the time of my visit. I lest scratching my head, there were Cabinet Speakers in the Room, but they were invisible when it cam to attempting to trace the source of the produced Sound. For me there was nothing falling short in the Soundstages Depth, Width and Headroom. The details, micro-detail and macro-detail produced was superb. If I had one thought that was noticeable from recollections of other used Speakers strengths, was that the envelope of the note/vocal produced was a little less visualised in forming with these Speakers. The owner made it known the Drivers are needing quite a few hour before evaluating these types of strengths being perceived.

When I learnt these Speakers were produced with the most basic of the X over Options and that a Upgrade Xover is available I was feeling very confident not much is out there that I will encounter that will easily surpass these.

When I also learnt that at the time a Xover Upgrade is added, the internal Cabinet Wiring is to be exchanged for PC Triple C Wire. I was absolutely sure the road travelled to surpass these speakers is going to need stop off's where Speakers are found with a £30K + Price Tag, with £50K models most likely being the price where competitors show their capabilities, strengths and attraction. 

Listening to 'Wish you Were Here' (the Track on the Vinyl LP), on this system, as  most recent encounter has allowed. Is what I will state, as being most attractive I have experienced it when replayed through any demo'd Cabinet Speaker.

As a result of what was experienced, and the perception being, the presentation is very ESL like, it might be the most attractive I have ever heard this replayed, whilst having a long-term keen interest in audio equipment.       

@larryi You write, "Maggies ... sound quite good when placed closer to the side wall than recommended, but, they do need space to the wall behind."

Agreed, that’s where they sound best. But I put my Magnepan Tympani 1a’s, which were 6’ tall and 4’ wide, just 2’ from some windows. With the curtains drawn, they still sounded good - not as good, I grant - but still better than anything else (with the possible exception of stacked Quad 57’s).

Magicio 2

fritz von lange

YG totem

those 3 speakers, especially the FRITZ von Langes caught my ears at AXPONA this year. The von Langes plumbed the depths, were shockingly small and imaged like crazy. 

@ronboco There was no update to the speakers. It was a price increase only. I bought the Atria II @$26k it then went to $28 and then $38k. I truly think that $26- 28 is a good price range for the atria. The Avior was also a good price ice at $40k. They are too close in price now imo. If I was in the market the Avior would be my pick for $7k more. It is interesting as the Cygnus only went up $5k in the same time frame. Hopefully if the can scale production up a bit and optimize work flow they can get better pricing out there. They make top notch speakers. 

@creditingkarma 

Maybe the Atria and Avior were selling so good they thought they could bump the price way up and still have strong sales. I do love my Avior ii. 
 

Happy listening! 
 

 

@ronboco 

My understanding is that the difference in price to produce the two speakers was not too different.  It is possible they were not making enough on the atria compared to the rest of the line up. I do miss my Atria II. I do hope to one day own the Orion or Lyra. For now I am searching for my next speaker. 

Thanks all who have suggested speakers. I’ve given at least cursory looks at every suggestion posted and have just begun a process of elimination (although still open to additions). A few will need to be aesthetics-driven, a few will be based on lack of availability and the fact that i can’t travel to 20+ hifi shops nationally in the hopes of hearing them all.

@pennfootball71 I stopped at a local dealer yesterday in the hopes of hearing the YG Summit and he claimed that they aren’t shipping yet (or something about a HiFi store in Colorado was the only one who’d actually gotten their hands on a pair). I’m not sure if you heard them at an Expo or if the dealer was just making excuses for not having a pair. I was able to listen to a set of YG Tor bookshelf speakers and was impressed.

@creditingkarma Sounds like you’re on the same journey, anything on your shortlist for speakers?

Rockports. Either Atrias (new) or Aviors (used)

@brewerslaw 

 

i am not sure where you are located? The dealer was right on with the YG summit they are not shipping yet. I do know a dealer local to me that has a pair of Rockport Atria II on consignment right now. These would be awesome speakers in the price range that you are looking. 
I used to own a pair of Atria II and they are incredible speakers. You might want to look at the Magico A5 as well. I did have a pair of Rockport Cygnus for a brief while and they are incredible speakers. I am not sure you can find them used at the price point you are looking at. It is rare to see Rockports show up on the used market. 

@creditingkarma thanks for the suggestions.  I’m in Wisconsin

@brewerslaw 

I am down in the Chicago area. The Rockport dealer is here in Palatine. The shop is The Audio Experience. 

With Rockports, be prepared to have a 400 watt amp for good effect. 

@brewerslaw Call GTT Audio tell Bill that Don Haines sent you. He is the biggest YG dealer in the country. 
908.850.3092

Synergy...synergy....synergy.is more important than any individual piece. Aavik and Borresen have it in spades. The Borresen X-3's @ 11K compare to many $20- 30 K speakers in sound and fit and finish and when driven by Aavik gear...well, talk about a match made in Heaven......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Horns.  I think it gives lots of flexibility i.e amp size.  Fleetwood and Volti come to mind.

Magico A5, used Magico S5 mk2, Rockport Atria II. 

Marten Parker series. Pick one which suits the size of your room.

I attende Pacific Audiofest yesterday.

 

The most impressive is big Genesis which costt 250k$.

Triangular horn speaker and Songer field coil speakers are also impressive but beyond your budget.

 

Borrensen spekers sound most balanced with no  serious faults at all.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisb5773-borresen-acoustics-z5-reference-full-range-loudspeakers-black-finish-beautiful-full-range

I found one used listing at Audiogon but no relation to the listing.

 

Thomas

@brewerslaw sending you a PM as you are somewhat local. I'm in a similar boat and will be watching your search closely.  

I demoed the persona's for over a year and it wasn't until I heard the Pathos Logos mk2 that I fell in love with the speakers. Now I have a pair of mac mc 611's driving a pair of kef blades. but if you can borrow a pathos logos mk 2 b4 moving on from your speakers you may not want to.

I have SF Amati tradition and love them. There are a number of folks trading these in recently to get the newer G4 edition, so used Tradition models are out there for  under 30K... 

Gershman Acoustics 30th Anniversary Grand Avant Garde

Audio Bacon advocated and then purchased these speakers:

https://audiobacon.net/2021/05/24/video-worlds-best-high-end-speakers-2021/amp/
I’m currently at the Pacific Audio Show and demoed these speakers - they sounded fantastic and surprisingly imaged in the audio show conditions. Last year I purchased the Vimberg Mino D over the Magico A5 and Rockport Atria II. If I heard these speakers prior I would have purchased them and saved $.

I’d consider a set of Vandersteen Quatro CTs (and, depending on the size of your room, a pair of Sub 3s).

I don't think there is only one right speaker for each pair of ears.  I tend to like a lot of speakers and depending on my mood at the time, could select several winners. Unfortunately we can't hear the candidates in our listening room and with our electronics (the only way to make an informed decision) thus the final choice can be based on other factors.  I tend to narrow choices based on research and then see where I can get the best price (discount) and/or service.  I also want to know the brand will be around incase of future problems.