In a room that size definitely go with monitors and a sub as it’ll be much easier to manage the bass and you’ll get bass down to a true 20Hz that you won’t get with floorstanders.
I've been happy with the soun bar for years and I tend to not like loud sub noises anywyas
You’re in a whole different world with a good 3.1 setup versus a sound bar — not even close. If you’re equating subs with loud you haven’t heard a properly integrated subwoofer. Ideally you don’t hear a sub at all, but you can certainly feel it. What many people don’t know is that subs not only greatly improve bass but also have enormous effects on improving overall soundstage, imaging, and detail. IME the two most important speakers for maximum HT enjoyment/involvement are the center speaker and the sub(s). Get those right and you’re all but assured a great HT experience if they’re set up properly.
As for speakers the Emotivas look fine, but I’d recommend taking a look at SVS. They do nothing but speakers and offer a 45-day completely risk-free trial including shipping both ways, which is rare and really nice. And their speakers and subs get excellent reviews and offer great value as they sell direct. I’d recommend their Prime monitors and center speaker (which is outstanding BTW) and their SB1000 Pro sub that, very importantly, has its own integration software that will make it much easier to achieve excellent and well-balanced sound in your challenging room (square rooms are awful for sound, particularly with bass issues). Plus, their customer service is absolutely top notch, which is nice to have especially if you’re new at this as the devil is in the details in achieving the best possible sound out of your expensive equipment. Ok, that’s all I got. Hope this helps, and best of luck in building a great HT system.
https://www.svsound.com/
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A 12 X 12 room is awfully small! Adding a sub to a room that size is useless! To get 20hz you need 56 feet. For 50hz you need 22 feet each along two walls. You can't cheat physics, even if you had a pair of 18" subs!
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The above is for a calculation of a full wave. Using a reflected wave a dimension of 28 feet will work for 20hz. For 50hz you need 11 feet. Therefore your 12 X 12 room will be good for a bit lower than 50hz. Physics doesn't lie!
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I’m using the Denon 1 step below yours with a set of floor standers and no sub. I put one in for a while and it sounded amazing on movies, but I really didn’t have the room for it, so it went back to my 2 channel setup.
All the Best.
JD
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@jasonbourne52
Jason is correct, you’ll never get to 20hz, 50hz or so is about it as he stated, so I’d either go with bookshelves or towers that can get you to 50 and skip the sub, put the money into better overall speakers.
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I use KEF LS50 Meta and KEF KC62 sub. It is the perfect combo for my similar sized room. The KEF sub is for audio not so much for HT.
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Don’t listen to the anti-sub club. The room size matters not — it’s all in how you set up the sub. A good sub makes all the difference in any room. Once you’ve got it dialed in you won’t want to listen without it.
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Hi,
New to the forum but wanted to forward my recent experience with something similar. My room is 14x26 and a bit irregular... plus 10 ft cielings. I just went from bookshelves + sub to floorstanders and both were really good. I would say for music the floorstanders' is 99% as good as the 2+1 (better actually in some ways as it's quicker) and 95% as good for movies. The walls rattle a bit, but the whole house doesn't shake.
BTW, regarding not being able to get below 50hz in a small room... I ran my bookshelves that go down to 50hz 3db without a sub and then with... and it's a VERY noticeable difference in music and movies but I only ran the sub for movies as it was a bit muddy. So while you may not get 20hz I don't recommend doing without the low end even in a smallish room as you do get something (maybe someone can chime in as to what?). Then again I'm new here. Multiple grains of salt needed.
Have fun
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I find a sub more useful than a center channel.
- So I would go 2.2 before I went 3.1 or 3.1
- And even 4.2 before 5.01 or 5.1.
But in a small room, if people are off to the sides, then a center may be more useful. Just not for 1 or 2 people close to the middle they aren’t.
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The size of the room has no bearing on whether a speaker can reach a certain Hz. A speaker, of any variety, puts out certain frequencies regardless of whether they're in a bathroom or a 6 car garage. In a room that size, one sub will be fine and if properly adjusted, will get down to it's stated frequency, as long as the manufacturer is accurate with their measurements.
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May I ask, you want to listen music as well with your system?
Then you better organise a 2nd pair of old but big speakers + simple dsp device such minidsp2x4hd and use this combo for ADD'L music bass reproduction only. Subs can never achieve this (even expensive ones such REL since drivers are too slowly).
SQ of your 2.0 system stays extremely superb then.
Greatings
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Jason's talking about the room resonance, which reinforces bass output. Of course, almost all speakers will roll off below that room effect. That is the whole reason why DSP is particularly useful for low frequencies. It's not that the speakers are that bad at producing bass, it's their inevitable interaction with the room.
Of course, there are always trade-offs. It does add cost & complexity, and DSP requires that analog signals be digitized, if you use any. That may be more trouble than it's worth, given that you're not that interested in the bass effects.
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I've tried a bunch of things in my HT, and the best is a Magnepan system (current). I use MMG-W mid-treble units for everything but the centre, which is a Quad, but the MMG-W would work for that too. Add a DWM woofer for L and R channel (as I do), and you have Nirvana. Bryston power is perfect.
YMMV.
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1000-1500 dollars?
For speakers?
at that price point please save your money until you have a few thousand.
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Or get something used…Or better yet try a DIY speaker from GR research and you will get something that is hi fi and cut out the dealer and distributor.
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@mrskeptic : room size has everything to do with bass! As I explained above small rooms will not support bass below, say, 50hz. I used the reflected wave in my second example because it corresponds to real room conditions, assuming the back wall is reflective. This is just simple physics! Which I guess some of the above posters don't grasp!
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@deadhead1000 +1! You get it! Adding subs to a room is not a panacea for bass! The results can be downright awful because of the excitation of room resonances, which no DSP can cure.
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I have a small room I use for HT. Not that small, but small. You need a sub. It’s about pressure, not sound - especially for HT. I’m not familiar with your Denon but many HT receivers cannot output the sub to the mains. To @jasonbourne52 ’s point, it is not going to be an easy road to tow. Reflection points are going to go crazy and room measuring will keep telling you to turn it down. You’ll settle somewhere in the middle between the pressure you need to feel and the articulation. Just my opinion, but a cheap sub is definitely worth the test. Not all of us can give up and move. Life is compromise.
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Emotiva just came out with the B2+ which is getting good reviews, I’m considering picking up a pair just to be able to change up my sound.
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A room that size, all you need is SONOS Bar on wall and SONOS Sub. Why clutter the space with bulky speakers/electronics. I have been using a SONOS soundbar / sub (3.1) for 10 plus years in a similar space for movies and music. Never felt the need to upgrade or anything else. Sonos Truplay software optimizes the sound to the nth degree. A well integrated sub makes all the difference, bass to music is like meat on the bones. Once you got it dialed in you won’t be able localize the bass.
SONOS is not cheap but everything else in their price range or lower pales in comparison.
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Subs can never achieve this (even expensive ones such REL since drivers are too slowly).
@kiterlux what does ^this^ mean?
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>this< means: ....achieve
1st: the bass reproduction a 2nd and eventually (as I have it) 3rd pair of speakers only can do...and
2nd: bass reproduction in time/in line with the stereo pair
both in conjunction with the processor Denon S760H.
This 2nd bass reproduction system is mainly for music, not for HT. But you can use it as well for it. Brings in both cases the beef to the sound.
You need to manage that 2nd bass reproduction system entirely by center channel signal which needs to be send by Y-cable to two dedicated amps. The HT-amp is switched off while listening music in the 3-channel stereo mode of processor. While watching HT all is normal, signal routing as usual using the other amp.
Delay requirements of that 2nd bass reproduction system you manage by minidsp2x4HD.
Cheers
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RedonKawa,
For the money, I would look at the following.....and you should be able to test drive all of them without much trouble. Pricing is per pair.
(1) Polk Audio Reserve line (R200, R500, R600, and R700)
(2) Triangle Borea line (BR02 $600, BR03a $800, and BR08 $1,200)
(3) Elac line (DB 2.0 B63 $800, DB 2.0 B63 F6.2 $1.150)
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Sorry, left out the pricing for the Polk speakers....pricing is per pair:
Polk Audio Reserve line (R200 $600, R500 $1,000, R600 $1,300, and R700 $1,700)
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I'd like to chime in... :)
How about a used Pass Labs X0.2 preamp. I have one of these I bought new some 20 years ago. This is a 3 box arrangement, and it has that lovely midrange bloom that tube lovers like, but this is not slow or overly romantic. In fact, the transient response is fast, not Halcro fast, but satisfyingly good. These can be found for about $3,000 dollars on U.S. Audio Mart and here on A-Gon. VTL, as in used gear also sounds lovely. In any case, happy hunting.
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I agree that at this budget and room dimensions, a sub may be superf. In general however subs are useful for more than just loud explosions. A sub will even benefit a solo flute, for example, by improving the sense of space around it. And by relieving the lowest end duties from the main speakers they tend to sound better. A lot of the music that I listen to has low end percussion used subtly. One usually appreciates it during live performances because it always seems to be missing in two channel, but a good sub will musically reveal it.
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Wharfedale Evo 4.2 now on sale for $999. Highly raved over the internet reviewers, reliable ones. For a small room like yours, you probably do not need sub. Room gain will help on low end extension.
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On the topic of small rooms:
I owned an A/V operation and enjoyed offering "creative solutions." After one-too-many customers stating: "My room’s not big enough for Home Theater", we decided to take a little action.
I ordered a 30" x 30" British phone booth (replica) and installed a 7.1 system in it. The design goal was when someone stated the familiar: "My room’s not big enough for Home Theater", we’d be ready with: "Is it bigger than 30 by 30 inches?" We built a custom baffle in the ceiling, took the "guts" out of B&W mini monitors, raised the floor 4", and installed a pair of low-profile JLAudio subs in the floor. Amplification was outboard and we used a vintage pay phone as a keypad to control basic functions. A 26" Sharp monitor completed the system. It played VERY loud and, yes, the bass POUNDED!! We calculated that it was the equiviant of having 4 kilowatts of power and 150" screen in an "average sized" room. It was alot of fun. Especially the day when a couple of female college students crammed themselves in it together, and we had to "assist" getting them out.
I also think it’s worth mentioning that we were very involved in competition car audio. We won a national title -- back in the day when sound quality mattered. In the car environment we were producing (and, measuring) ruler-flat response down to 32hz, and 130db+ SPLs were routine in vehicles exiting our shop. I guess we didn’t know it couldn’t be done.
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@waytoomuchstuff
+1 Great story.
One of the most amazing systems I heard long ago was a tube system set up in what I would call a medium sized walk in closet by a dealer that understood how to position and tweak for sound. it was natural, musical, mesmerizing at all volumes… even loud.
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@ghdprentice The closet system checks all the boxes for the elements of an impactful, yet highly detailed system. Wish I could have heard it.
We often overlooked just how good "high end" car audio systems could sound, when done "right". Although not the perfect listening environment, there is something to be said for near-field listening, and having unlimited dynamic headroom on tap. Building a system that could hurt you before you could hurt it, required a little discipline and restraint.
Thanks for the positive comments on my story.
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@waytoomuchstuff
Honestly, the issue is talent. It takes talent as well as experience, and dedication to get the skills to do this well. I have met only three or four individuals with this ability. I have met many dozens of competent audiophiles… but not all have had the gift, even if experienced. But what a real talented guy can do is truly incredible.
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I've done a bunch of research on this sub and others and am starting to solidify my first real stereo system. I've used a 60 inch TV and very basic soundbar for years now and I'm moving to a 120" X3000i projector and real sound system. Room setup is 12x12, closed basement room. Going to mainly utilize the projector for movies/shows with some gaming thrown in there off a PC.
I've already purchased the Denon S760H since it seems to be able to do most things that I'll need and has some nice features and everyone loves it.
Currently debating between bookshelves/sub and towers/no sub, specifically between Airmotiv B1+ and a Speedwoofer sub or Airmotiv T1+ towers without sub. I've been happy with the soun bar for years and I tend to not like loud sub noises anywyas (spent enough time in Iraq and Afghanistan around loud noises), so I feel like I may not miss it? Room is also relatively small so a lot of power isn't needed. Either way I would go with the Airmotiv C1+ for center channel as well. Will probably stay at a 3.0 or 3.1 system for now and upgrade later.
https://tutuappx.com/ https://tweakbox.mobi/
Curious on everyone's thoughts here about the bookshelf/sub, towers/no sub decision and choices of equipment as well. Trying to stay around the 1000-1500 total budget range. Thanks for the help!
I got this,...
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IME subs are instrumental to truly good home theater. Get a pair of SVS SB1000 Pro subs for $1150 — they’re relatively small, will get you down to 20Hz, and come with software that will make them easy to integrate and tune for your personal tastes. Best of luck.
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