Streaming brought in about 75% of revenues for the record labels last year. So it will be around for a while.
Streaming gives you access to millions of albums. You can buy the ones you really want a copy of that no one can take away.
Streaming is good for people who like to try new (to them) music. I listen to all kinds of stuff I never would buy. Some I like a lot, some I don’t. Thanks to streaming I don’t have piles of CDs or Lps that I don’t want. |
What, pay some outfit crazy dollars to stream audio rather than using your own media via Vinyl or cd?
I spend way more on vinyl every month than I do for streaming services. With vinyl (and CDs) I'm limited to the media I have. With streaming I have almost everything I could ever want to listen to at my fingertips. Now that I think about it, why do I keep buying vinyl? |
I don’t get the obsession with streaming. What, pay some outfit crazy dollars to stream audio rather than using your own media via Vinyl or cd? No, it’s not happening. Is this streaming thing a fad, or do these outfits exist because they’re supported by non audiophiles? I think the latter. Vinyl rules. Still |
Try wired connection directly off the router should give you a gigabit speed. Wireless bandwidth is limited. Especially of running wireless video to receiver boxes in other areas of the house.
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to itsjustme,
Sometimes streaming does sound better through my Schiit Multibit DAC, but most often my Cyrus CD transport sounds better though the same DAC. |
Hey I'm in I.T., I resemble that...
Besides it wasn't the technology it was PEBCAK
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Laltik
”care to enlighten us with steps involved with cueing up vinyl”
Not sure where you are going with some latent snarkiness here, but my point was that when getting started with streaming, the frustrations can be so great for the average person, that even getting started with an analog system can be easier.
I am not a vinyl guy. Sold off my vinyl rig five years ago, got rid of the lps, and haven’t looked back. However, this entire thread is filled with people listing their myriad difficulties getting streaming right, going through multiple changes in streamers, WiFi routers,changing Ethernet connections, etc, getting components to recognize each other, etc. Advertisers try to make it sound simple, just plug and play, and that can make the purchaser feel like a nitwit if they encounter all the IT issues that routinely plague the work place and keep IT support people happily employed.
My offhand comment about vinyl (I dislike vinyl so much that I cannot believe I am writing something positive about it here) was that for a newbie it may be easier to initiate than streaming. Turntables can have cartridges pre mounted, and technically, that is the biggest obstacle. Keep in mind I am referring to starter turntables here, not some $50,000 bit of esoterica. Pop the platter on, the Matt, set the antiskate, make the connections with the preamp, perhaps adjust a cartridge setting on the preamp. I won’t get into the record cleaning, static, hum issues, etc...Again, the point being that even this cumbersome process can be easier than initiating streaming.
Newcomers to streaming should be aware that sometimes it works out of the box, and sometimes it can be a soul testing trial. If the person is really proficient in IT, that is a plus. For the rest of us, I would start with a dealer or company that has really good support. The normal progression, at least for me, when exploring a new technology is to start with an inexpensive component to familiarize myself with the technology, and then upgrade over time. With streaming this can backfire, as the cheaper equipment may not be well supported. Bluesound used to have good support, now, as they have gotten bigger, not so much. Dealers, particularly older ones who are used to dealing with traditional audio components, may not be very helpful either, and they can be loath to admit this. If purchasing from a bricks and mortar store, make sure they have some IT savvy people on site
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Sorry to hear about the caps but that makes more sense as the likely cause of distortion than network issues which again can result in delays if insufficient bandwidth but not aware of that ever being the cause of distortion, especially with a WiFi connection. |
I share your frustration; I spent almost a year testing different options. I tried the famous brands: Auralic, Naim, Lumin, etc.
Probably almost sounds as good now as your CD source once did that was binned. Would have been even better if that kind of effort was put into it also Cheers George |
Hi, I share your frustration; I spent almost a year testing different options. I tried the famous brands: Auralic, Naim, Lumin, etc. Streaming is a great option if you have all working properly. You need to have a good streamer. I recommend trying this combo: https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/audio-server/products/premier-server-player-combo-sonictransporter-i5-ultrarendu-7v-linear-power-supply?variant=12400215719970My system: 1. PrimaLuna Dialogue Integrated HP 2. Sonic Transporter i5 and Ultra Rendu 3. Mutec REF 10 External Clock 4. Mutec MC3+ USB 5. Esoteric D-05 DAC 6. Nordost Qkore6 for grounding 7. Nordost: QB8 (1), QX2 (1) e QX4 (1) 8. Focal Utopia Headphones 9. Sonus Faber Cremona Speakers 10. Pair of REL S/5 SHO Now, after using I5+Ultra Rendu in mys system, I found my nirvana. You'll need to buy also a better Ethernet Switch and better Ethernet cables (you'll find people saying that switches and cables would make no difference. Don't listen to them! They are wrong. I don't care that digital signals are 0s and 1s only, but sonically speaking there is a big difference when you have better Ethernet switch and cable. Don't just listen to me! Test and compare as I did). Good luck |
@ OP: As others have stated, digital data packages are not precisely controlled in the time domain. I had a similar problem with an Apple airport extreme WiFi router (airport express 'satellites' have no internal clock). The best explanation in my case was a clock locking issue at the DAC level. The DAC uses a digital buffer/minimal delay to sort out the time domain precisely. This buffer can be overwhelmed.
I transitioned to a mesh WiFi router (Lynksis) and never looked back. Works well with airplay, Chromecast, and perfectly with ROON even when multiple clients are active on the WiFi network. Specifically, transmitting using ROON via WiFi from a MacBook pro to an OPPO UDP 205 is slightly superior to Toslink or USB. USB introduces minimal noise.
Don't give up on streaming yet! Good luck! |
I use Amazon HD and download the songs to my pc. This way, I can play hi-res tracks with no internet at all. I still have access to the vast library, I just download a song/album when I find one I like. |
@sgreg1, if you and your neighbors are not getting the contracted speed from your ISP, it is time to take it to the NEXT LEVEL. Please check to see who is responsible for your ISP’s legal contract in your city. In my city, it was the City Attorney. Several years ago. I had similar ISP related problems in our neighborhood. I called the City Attorney’s Office and explained the situation. He asked me to document the facts and send him the information. I put together a very detailed package that documented our problems, what we did, the ISP’s lack response, etc. I included additional comments from my other neighbors. I was very factual and provided all the necessary supporting material. His department began an investigation to see what was going on. It took time, he asked for more information and eventually, our ISP problem was FIXED. As a result of the investigation, the City decided to contract for additional ISP’s to provide its citizens additional ISP service choices. For me, the best news, was that I dropped the bad ISP and switched to another ISP Service.
Obviously, this is not a short-term fix. It will require lots of work, patience and extra efforts to get it done. I was very lucky since my City Attorney understood the problem and was extremely helpful in working to get it solved. I had also contacted other City Officials, explained the issues I was having with the ISP and what I was doing about. They also reported they had ISP issues and that really helped my case. There is no question in my mind that they contacted the City Attorney and that helped put the pressure on.
I encourage you to take this next step. It will take time and patience, but it is well worth it. As noted, you should work with your City Attorney (or another department), and other City officials, to get this issue resolved. I suggest you start gathering the facts, include detailed documentation including comments from your neighbors and present your case. I hope this helps.
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I stream through spectrum and don’t have your issue but do have issues. I have run multiple speed tests at different times of the day and get results anywhere from 32 to 225. It is not just me but our entire neighborhood. We have had them out here many times and the only answer is we have an issue but they do not know how to fix it. You have to look at how US companies operate. They use outdated systems outdated equipment tell us and market and advertise it as the latest and greatest so they can charge us a higher price than we should have to pay for a system that is 10 years behind the rest of the world. This is the same and worse for your cell phone. Just look at the benchmark speeds that are published for other countries. It is not your modem it is not your router it is the system we have and nothing we can do about it.
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OK, thank you everyone for the help. We can end the discussion, it appears to be caps in my amp. It started happening this morning, I switched to CD and it continued. Frustrating, but now I know its not the streaming.
@gosta you're welcome. Listen to her other albums, very talented mandolin player as well as an incredible voice. Found her because I listen to a lot of Alison Krauss |
Sierra Hull. Thanks for a fine artist and very nice recording. Streaming of course. Requires about 2 Mb/s bandwith. |
@ jmphotography I too have Asus AC3100 (AWESOME router!) and NAD C388 w/BluOS2i MDC module (essentially same as Node 2i) connected by WiFi. Whatever Ethernet cable (Cat 5e/6/7/8/etc.) proponents say about improved SQ is BS. WiFi with the specific units mentioned above works AWESOME! Notice I said SQ. I’ve never had bad SQ from the WiFi connection. However, I have had music stop playing due to poor WiFi connection - read more about Roaming Block List below. The bandwidth you mentioned is way more than necessary. We have 100MB service, and simultaneously doing the following without any issues: - 2x kids playing Xbox1S’s MMO’s with VOIP service running on top (for headset banter)
- Streaming Netflix Ultra (4k with HDR and surround) in the HT system on another Xbox1S.
- Me streaming Amazon UltraHD with BluOS
Another member mentioned adjusting the router to prioritize audio... Yes, this is possible. Once logged-in to the Asus AC3100, on the left side menu click "Adaptive QoS". There will be 3 tabs in the main screen, "Bandwidth Monitor", "QoS", "Web History" - click "QoS". Enable QoS = Yes QoS Type = Adaptive QoS Bandwidth Setting = Automatic Select = Media Streaming Click Apply (router will do its thing, and setting will be in effect) The above is quick & dirty way to do it. Way more trickery is possible with more advanced setting adjustments. If you have a marginally weak WiFi signal, music stream may suddenly pause - then spontaneously restart. If you have a fully-weak WiFi signal, music may pause and not come back. Think of this as similar to having a partially or fully damaged Cat cable - results are expected. Notice there is never static or noise... music just stops (same as it would with damaged cable). My wireless network consists of additional routers. As you may know, AC3100 is MESH-capable. I have the AC3100 as primary, with two Asus AC1900 routers in AiMesh mode to seamlessly (for mobile devices) cover more ground (4,000 sqft house on 1 acre). These routers also allow capability to specify devices stay on a particular router in the mesh network (for devices that aren’t mobile), which can be handy, since mesh will move devices around to load-balance. I have the BluOS2i (NAD MDC module) locked to the closest router (and only router not located in the basement). This feature is called "Roaming Block List" - find it in left-side menu Advanced Settings/Wireless/Roaming Block List. Hope this helps - Good luck! If you need more help with router settings PM me - happy to help. |
I used to do corporate networks starting 30 years ago and their could be a few things that you should look at:
1) you indicated that xfinity saw some errors. What were they? Could they fix them or did they mask them by upping your speed? Speed isn’t the problem, it’s the quality of your connection.
2) something simple to look at 1st on your side is you could have a bad Ethernet patch cable. We used to certify every cable that we made to ensure it was built right. Invest in a cheap network cable analyzer like the Tripp-lite network cable tester for $40 and check each of your cables. You would be surprised how many cables have issues
2) Router configuration. How many routers are you using? Do you have a bridged network or a mesh network? If you are using a few routers, are they attached by an Ethernet cable or from WiFi? Big difference in performance, you don’t want to use WiFi unless you have to.
3) you want to use a 1G internal network which requires cat5e cables or higher. I use a cat7 audioquest Ethernet cable from my wall socket to my dac, much better termination which equals better sq.
I have been streaming (to me streaming is accessing music on a disk drive or internet) for over a dozen years without any issues. My music server is a Mac mini running Roon from a different room than my audio equipment. I have been thru many years using pure music/Audirvana software or a dedicated music server Auralic Aries. Roon replaced all of that.
Network wise, I have a 1G private network and my house is all wired using cat6 cablIng. My internet is a 1G fiber network. My last house I had 1G fiber using cat5e cables without any issues. Even with my home wired in every room going to a 1G switch, I use 3 routers all connected together with cat6 cabling. All 3 routers are setup in a bridged configuration. Any Mac that is attached to any router will see 950Mb upload and download speeds with 3 or 4 ms latency. Tidal MQA is every bit as good and usually much better sound quality than ripped or purchased hires files as well as vinyl. |
I am running a brand new Asus AC3100 router and it has a few ports
One thing I would do (if you haven't already) is check for firmware updates to your Asus. New wireless routers are shipped all the time with immature firmware which eventually gets fixed. New firmware has fixed network latency issues (and more serious issues) in the past. Whether this fixes your issue or not it's a good idea to check from a security standpoint. |
to RVpiano - i play both back to back and on my system vastly prefer streaming to physical CDs - typically from my server but also from Tidal/etc. I rip all my CDs ALAC and play on either Mac with Bitperfect and upsampling, or ROON on dedicated 4-core ROCK.G
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There are so many half thoughts and disconnected opinions here as to confuse anyone. A fw comments:
1. if your wifi sounds better than Ethernet, you have a problem2. A high res video stream is 3-10 mbps; streaming FLAC music is ~ 0.7 mbps. so 230 mbps is crazy overkill.3. But what raet are you getting from the music servers? They are affected by many network issues, principal among them peering (dont ask, its techo-legal)4. first trouble isolate. Does it exist with CD? Phono? Etc.5. If its streaming only, ping TIDAL or ??? and get some data6. opinions and raw "on the tin" numbers w/r/t network performance are so much gibberish. Your internet can be fast, yet a server or intermediate point congested. if so tho, the situation should vary from good to bad day by day7. No magic box will fix. Either you have a misbehaving component that needs repair, or a system problem that needs troubleshooting.
I have never had overt distortion from a streaming service whether low res or high.
Should you discover that you have inconsistent networking, and if you can set your buggers as large as possible.
Good luck. Be step by step logical.
G
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So happy to read this post. I thought nearly everyone had gone to streaming.
Its good to read so many see (or hear) that CDs are still most often better sounding.
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The bandwidth requirement for streaming media, either TV or music, are surprisingly small. If you read the linked page mentioned here earlier, the highest quality stream, 24 bit/192 khz, only required 10 mbs of bandwidth and you've got well over 200 mbs.
The problem you describe isn't something in your router or home network. Do a bandwidth test from any of the various bandwidth testing sites. Chances are you'll see your expected 200+ mbs speed.
The data you're trying to stream isn't even coming directly from Tidal or whoever. All of the Internet companies now use a planet wide caching service call Akamai. So the network problems you're experiencing are something that is between your internet provider and Akamai, and you have no control over that.
I ripped all of my CDs to flac format to a hard drive. I play everything from a laptop, connected to a USB DAC, to my preamp. I also run my CD player through the DAC, but rarely use it as all of my stuff is on the hard drive. I have all of my music data copied to two other machines in the house as well as an off-site backup service. I have far more music than I have time to listen to, so I don't bother with streaming services. |
“Streaming is much harder to get right than popping in a CD or even cueing up vinyl.”
@mahler123,
Care to enlighten us on steps involved with a Vinyl setup (starting with unboxing a turntable) leading upto cueing Vinyl? |
Have you tried using your phones as a hotspot to troubleshoot your problem? Just a thought...
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New to thread. In the fist post, the OP opines”I’m getting frustrated and it’s not suppose to be like this”. Wanna bet? Streaming is much harder to get right than popping in a CD or even cueing up vinyl. Listen to some of the stories in this thread, people using multiple routers, etc. streaming can be great, but those of us who are not IT experts, and even some who are, will hit many a bump in the road |
@ajcrocker1 Awesome, thank you, so its not just me and my caps aren't going on my amp! Glad you heard the same thing.
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I sent this posting link along with some other tracks to Qobuz to look into |
I have noticed that some tracks on Qobuz are recorded "hot". Meaning that they exceed the normal 6dB headroom. Qobuz when accessed from the computer has a volume slider that can be adjusted. If the data is sent over at too high of a volume level, the USB DAC will clip. This creates the sound like you are describing.
I looked at the Escape track and got this distortion you mentioned at 47 seconds in. I adjusted the volume down and it was gone. |
I have a node 2i...sound is great, but I only stream my library over my household network; none of the subscription services. My internet speed is 100mpbs and I have no problem streaming video on two larger tvs |
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Here is a link from QoBuz and chart from Netflix describing the resources needed for streaming various content. You are well within the range needed to power multiple 4K TV’s and Tidal or QoBuz. You probably could do 8k content if you wanted to without any ill effects. You can spend your money to increase to 400 mbps but it shouldn’t make any difference in your result. QoBuz https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/info/hi-fi/bancs-d-essai/will-my-internet-bandwidth-be179216NETFLIX These are the recommended internet connection speeds to stream movies and TV shows on Netflix: - 0.5 Mb/s to view standard definition movies on a laptop computer. While you can stream Netflix at speeds of 0.5 Mb/s, the quality is grainy on a large screen, much like watching an old VHS movie. Netflix recommends at least 1.5 Mb/s.
- 3.0 Mb/s to view standard definition video (480p) on a TV.
- 4.0 Mb/s to view high definition video (720p, 1080p).
- 5.0 Mb/s or more for the best 1080p experience.
- 15 Mb/s to stream 4K (but 25 Mb/s is preferred). Also recommended is a 4K Ultra TV with an HEVC decoder.
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My background is as a senior VP in high-tech in Silicon Valley in the networking industry, now retired early. I’d be very surprised if your distortion description was due to your internet feed from Xfinity. At least not from your description of the way the sound changed.
It literally sounds more like a hardware issue such as a cap, bad cable, or something else that is injecting an analog, not a digital component, causing the distortion. If it was in the internet stream such as dropped packets, it would be more likely exhibit itself as delays, dropouts, etc. BTW... your downstream speed in the 200+ mbps is far beyond what you need to stream music and Netflix. Again, if your audio and TV were competing for bandwidth, it would be more in the way of delays and dropped packets, again not giving the kind of audible distortion you’re describing.
I would try my best to swap out hardware as a test to get the internet out of the equation first. You’ve got enough “moving parts” in the chain that I feel you should get it down to a simple setup with your CD player, preamp, amp and speakers. Run that for awhile and see if you hear any distortion. If you do, then get your gear diagnosed, especially the old amp which may have leaked a capacitor or two in it’s 20 years of loyal service to you.
Best of luck
Gary
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If any volume controls are in play with any of the sources, would suggest lowering them and see if that helps. If the node device has an explicit setting for line level only (volume control bypassed) use that and set volume with pre-amp only.
Two high a voltage to the input of the pre-amp can result using source devices with volume controls and that WILL produce distortion if too high.
I’ve experienced it connecting a Chord Mojo DAC to pre-amp with volume control in play. That device has an explicit setting to bypass the volume control and output proper line level voltage only.
Probably no option like that using a laptop or other home computer. In that case just lower the volume enough at the source so no distortion is heard. |
@taww - no it was not the Bluesound, I also plugged my MacBook in and was streaming Tidal and Qobuz and it was doing the same so that rules out the Bluesound
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Why does poor digital audio signal cause dropouts and poor digital video signal cause pixelization but no dropouts?
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FWIW I have been using either hard drive media or streaming for the last few years and left my CDs in storage since moving over a year ago. I started with my own rips and FLACs and still prefer those to streaming when possible, but the majority of my listening is streaming. First couple years were Tidal because Qobuz was horribly unreliable for me here in the States but it's been better lately. I still subscribe to both services as well as Spotify for convenience/catalog and since it's a relatively small price to pay for so much music (plus I hope it helps artists even with the pittance of royalties). Dropouts and noise are exceedingly rare for me and I never get any weird distortion - that sounds more like a potential software/hardware issue with the Bluesound? I'm interested in getting a Powernode (just got one for my brother) so I hope they are reliable.
I usually have my streaming DACs/endpoints wired with Ethernet but have used a WiFi bridge without issue. My network is admittedly pretty solid with Ubiquiti gear and usually gigabit broadband but I've operated fine with lower service levels. 100mbps is more than sufficient unless you are simultaneously streaming 4k UHD or have tons of clients (e.g. kids as someone pointed out). |
Get a second cable hookup and use it just for streaming. |
Get an ifi SPDIF PURIFIER 2 when you get an external DAC...beyond words what this can do for your streaming! Also, if you can find an MIT Magnum digital cable for the connection to your Node 2, get it...streaming will sound more like vinyl without the drawbacks!! |
bobby1945I get distortion on specific streams also when streaming from TIDAL via ROON. I have come to the conclusion it is embedded distortion as a result of DRC. What is DRC?
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Another +vote for physical media.
Happy Listening! |
Is not the speed is Comcast
whenever you’re signing up they ask you how many Devices are you going to use for example if you say 2 then they’re going to prioritize Those two that’s it Or if you say 5 then they’re going to recommend different speed
kind of bs but it’s what it’s
my speed is 200mb i can stream MQA and wife watching movies Son watching tv shows on Apple TV 4K Whiteout any issues |
I’ve been streaming with several streamers since 2008. I’ve never experienced distortion or dropouts. I’ve always found wired Ethernet sounds better than WiFi, by some distance. I’ve been researching improving sound quality for wired Ethernet and eliminating RFI and unwanted noise picked up in the cables. This works really well and in my opinion an essential bit of gear to put between your streamer and Ethernet wire. Www.networkacoustics.com |
Been streaming for 5+ years (still have CDs but don't use much now) and zero issues - but, I have been obsessive/compulsive over my setup top to bottom. I even invested in a custom ethernet switch with internal clock and separate power supply. IMHO all the components in the digital string must be regularly optimized. So the convenience of streaming comes at a cost in O/C behavior, but then that's no different really than the analog-only folks who do the same thing with their rigs.
Except I have MILLIONS of high rez files at my fingertips - and thus never a day passes that I don't stumble on some hidden auditory diamonds. |
As a post script check out Bruce Springsteen TRACKS.
Disc 4 Track- Over The Rise.
I detect zero distortion. |
I get distortion on specific streams also when streaming from TIDAL via ROON.
I have come to the conclusion it is embedded distortion as a result of DRC.
Most recordings have been compressed so much during mastering that distortion is inherent in just about every recording.
CD's are not the solution , they are part of the problem. So are digital downloads .
First pressings of vinyl seems the best consistent SQ |
Or, you can buy a Google Chromecast for $35 and plug it into an HDMI port and "cast" through Wifi whatever you want. It will only be 16/44.1 though.
I've read hints that Google will be coming out with an updated Chromecast that will support 24/96 like their old Chromecast Audio did. But you'd have to use Qobuz as TIDL(which I use) will not cast beyond "HiFi" due to MQA licensing b.s...
But, I do have a home theater processor that has HDMI ports so maybe it's different.
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@mwinkc I am running the Node 2i plugged into a wall jack. The wall jack is Cat 5e which I installed myself 8 years ago when our home was being built and it runs maybe 40 ft up to the closet one floor above where my router and modem are located. I don’t use a switch, I am running a brand new Asus AC3100 router and it has a few ports, but I am only using 2, one for the Node and one for my work computer. My modem is also brand new, Motorola MB7621.
The other night when was happening I plugged my MacBook Pro and streamed from it and experienced the same issue, so we can rule out the Node. I did not have the CD player hooked up at the time otherwise I would have tested using a CD. After I sent a refresh signal to my modem it went away.
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Can we assume your Node 2i is plugged directly into the router with a good cat7 cable? Or, if you are going through a switch, is it a good quality gigabyte switch and cat7 cables all the way?
I would play analog sources for a while to see if the problem returns, to rule out the preamp & amp. Also, upon hearing the issue when streaming, switch to a in-progress analog source quickly to see if the issue carries on or stops.
I have seen a few gigabyte switches do unexplainable, weird stuff...could try swapping out the router or switch.
Do you have a way to stream that doesn't involve the Node 2i? If you can stream from a phone or laptop via Bluetooth, USB or even a 3.5mm stereo cable...try some extended listening to see if it eventually deteriorates too. Try it with your Qobuz, Tidal and even Youtube...to eliminate the 2i's streaming functionality or to pin the issue on it. |
Speed probably isn't the issue (it all depends on how much you are using the network/internet in your household, streaming music/movies/on demand stuff/YouTube, but to find out, run a network speed test and capture the ms it takes to ping as well as speed), its the quality of your connection. If you have a lot of packet drops, your data packet will have to be resent, and when this happens, the timing can be off or you will get dropouts. Next time it occurs, check your network stats and get your ISP to run a trace, catch it while you are having issues.
Once you get your network working on a consistent basis, look for a dac with a built in ethernet connection which can also be used as a Roon endpoint. You do this, you won't need your node2 any longer. Run Roon on a computer with all your ripped music and/or Qobuz/tidal access, and a network dac and you are done |
