am in the market for a great two channel music system. They will be set up in a dedicated listening room that is 12'x17'x9'. The room is carpeted but not treated.
My budget is around $15k-$20k for speakers, wires, amp+preamp (or integrated).
I prefer towers as I like the full range and have had bad luck with integrating a sub. I started my search with B&W 805's and Sonus Faber Olympica I's (which are still on my short list)
My problem is that most of the dealers in my area do not carry very many brands, so it is hard to compare. I cannot even find one that carries the KEF reference.
I am leaning right now to the Sonus Faber Olympica III's but also really like the B&W 803 D3. I wish I could hear them side by side. The dealer with the SF's is great and has let me do home testing with several speakers and he is recommending the Olympica's.
I read a lot online about auditioning several different speakers but cannot find any place in central Florida that has most of the lines they are suggesting. I know if I pick the SF Olympica's I will be very happy, but I have not even heard the III's! I am just a little frustrated that the consistent advice is to listen to a lot of others, but I can't.
I would 2nd Gooses recommendation of going to Suncoast Audio in Sarasota. Mike the owner, has just opened his new store and it is filled with fantastic audio components. He is very easy to deal with and is very knowledgeable about audio products. He only sells 2 channel. You would be hard pressed to find a better place to audition items. His store should be a easy drive for you. Give him a call and tell him what you are interested in. He only does auditions by appointment. He is also the owner of the Audio Shark website.
I have had good friends come to my house that were a lot stranger then anyone who has come by to listen. Stranger then strange. Of course I am in Washington state where MJ is legal which might explain my friends.
@mobiusmu Too bad you're not close to me, otherwise you could hear my 802d3 and Olympica 3.. I agree it is difficult to demo everything that you're interested in. Been there and done that.
soundsrealaudio and gdhal - exactly. That's why this forum can be so valuable, theoretically. Also, people should be able to write well to describe their impressions in details.
No matter how many dealerships you visit, how many audio "festivals" you attend and how ever much time you spend doing it, in all likelihood you wouldn’t be able to audition even half of what the market has to offer. Moreover, many dealership rooms are setup like crap and may not have in use the other gear in your system. So even if you do have an opportunity to audition the speakers on your short list, you should only give so much credence to it.
As the Grateful Dead would say, you just have to make sure you leave no left turn unstoned.
Get in touch with John at AudioConnection in NJ....He sells everything and is very willing to give advice. Look up his phone number and give him a call...you won't regret it.
Mobius, I hope you come out of Irma OK. There are problems and then there are PROBLEMS. God bless. Certain speaker brands are known for mating well with a wide range of amps and being easier to drive. Canton, Pro-Ac, and Vandersteen are among them, I think. Also Primare amps and integrateds are not sensitive to speaker loads. I doubt that you'll find a place to audition Cantons, though.
I'd say I don't need home auditioning for relatively inexpensive set-up, I would not expect much anyway. If dealer's room is good enough I will hear whatever there is to hear. But $20k speakers - yes, definitely home audition unless the dealer's room is very close to mine, which would not be very likely. As an additional note, I think building great speaker is very challenging so no wonder that those with excellent hearing and high expectations reject most of them.
Sadly, speaker auditioning is a challenge everywhere now. We're continually told by reviewers to go hear for ourself before buying, without any acknowledgement that going to hear a pair of high end speakers is no simple matter. I ended up going to RMAF but never did get to hear some of the speakers I really wanted to listen to as potential purchases. Hello Revel? Quad? Where were you? Not there when I paid for a flight and hotel to audition your products.
I understand the problems of sustaining a dealer network but the industry keeps acting as if $20-30k speaker purchasers are everywhere and don't need to be enabled and supported in their decisions. Imagine the car industry making it that difficult to test drive. If the industry cannot make home auditions easier and more affordable for many, I don't see how many people can be encouraged to experience high end sound.
There are pressing issues with climate change, the unregulated financial system, the vast amount of inequality in they USA. ( " if only those people would " work hard and play by the rules they would be rich" ) Politicians pissed away 3 trillion dollars in Iraq and Afghanistan, that is my money, my son's money, and my grandsons' money and now the politicians are on TV telling us to send money to the victims.
I can remember when I opened my shop. We didn't have the RMAF at that time so I went to the CES in Vegas. Did all my research and read the reviews of the speakers that were of interest. I was truly amazed. Remember how I went to visit room after room with high expectations. Many of those rooms all I did was walk in and do a U turn. You don't have to eat the whole egg to know it is rotten.
I dropped my expectations and visited rooms with brands I knew nothing about. No expectations. I found a few speakers that appealed to me, but not as many as I thought.
That is perfectly understandable. A dealer or speaker manufacturer at a show is there to show the product in the best light possible. It's a show to benefit the manufacturer/dealer, not set up for attendees to do their shopping.
Of course, ideally attendees do get an idea of how a range of different speakers can perform. And it is certainly nice if someone is allowed to play their own CD. That's a perk. But I had paid money, and went to all the effort of transportation, set up etc, to display a speaker I'd want that speaker sounding good as much of the time, and crappy as little of the time, as possible.
I had a room at the RMAF for about 10 years. When the room was not that busy I was happy to play a cut off of a guests CD. In general I preferred to play music that I knew would show just how good my system was, with high degree of transparency, great sound stage and very natural sound. As an example:
" Nothing I heard at RMAF.. could touch this rig for sheer midrange purity, detail, three-dimensionality." Chris Martens The Absolute Sound
The problem with playing music that someone brings in my room is that it may sound very ordinary.
I would not recommend just walking out of a room that won't play your CD for you. I would suggest that you first listen to the setup and if you like it, stay for a while and if you are still interested speak with the exhibitor and express your interest, tell him you really like the sound and wonder if he would mind play a track for you.
I’ve owned the Sonus Faber Olympica III. Based on your room dimensions of 12 x 17, I don’t think that will be enough room for the III’s. I was in a regular rectangular room that was 22 x16 and they worked well. They need about 2-3 from the back wall and around 2 feet from the side wall. If they are spaced too close together, you definitely lose a lot image focus and soundstage and a lot of what the Olympica IIIs can do. Maybe the the II’s or the I’s. Just one man’s opinion whose owned the Olympicas though. I don’t have any dealers either. Speakers are by far the hardest to demo and even if you can get a demo, you can’t tell how much of the sound is contributing to other components (which will more than likely be completely different than what you have) and an entire different room layout. All this can lead to the speakers sounding completely different in your home than what you heard at shows or at dealers. It is a very frustrating process. Best of luck and hope you find a pair that suits everything you are looking for.
Audio Video Therapy in Nashua are great guys to deal with....great headphone room, which is my next purchase .....good selection of gear to listen to also
My recommendation would be to listen to Boenicke W11's. Very open and naturally balanced speakers. Extremely well made, exclusive mid range driver made from wood veneers, imho they look stunning machined from solid wood staves in either ash, oak, walnut or cherry. They come in various tuning option grades.
@actolexI I bought my speakers and amps from Audiogon members who not only allowed me to pick up the items, but allowed me to listen to them before I bought. There are a lot of generous people out there. Like anything, it pays to be cautious. PM through Agon, talk to potential buyers on the phone beforehand, have a friend with you - should you need some moral support, and check feedback/references. I never thought I would allow strangers in my house, but I now feel comfortable, as audiophiles have better things to do than steal or do you harm. B
+1 willgolf. There are 4 Wilson dealers in Florida (see their website). The Sabrinas are truly special, and would consume a large part of your budget. But paired with a used Audio Research integrated amplifier, a slice of heaven. You could upgrade the electronics later. They may also have used speakers in the store from customers that have upgraded.
"You should not expect much from a $10,000 pair of speakers and that they will be a modest level of performance"
First off, be sure to ignore this nugget of BS! There are splendid loudspeakers available for $5K retail.
That said, I'd take a hard look at used speakers. Next to cables, they are the most heavily discounted piece of audio gear....I see superb, late model speakers for sale here on AG regularly for 50-60% off retail. You'll be able to put yourself in a whole different class of performance given your budget. Going with an integrated is another good idea. Lets you avoid another set on interconnects, power cable, etc. The Dartzeel CTH-8550, Gryphon Diablo come straight to mind, also the Pass 60 INT or 250 INT depending on what speakers you end up with.
Consider finding loudspeakers that are somewhat sensitive, this opens up many more possibilities for amplification.
Do consider traveling to a dealer...someone has already suggested Suncoast...they have a great selection of gear.
If you are not opposed to buying used, there are several SF Olympica iiis for sale on this site, including one for $5800. They are both rated 10/10. For that money, you could relist if you weren't happy with them, without a loss.
I have never had a show exhibitor refuse to play a CD I have asked them to play, unless they can't because they do not have the facility to play one. You are correct if they can and won't. Walk.
With your ample budget, and based on your desire to own towers ... if it were me, and I wanted to buy new, based on reviews and a desire to get the biggest bang for the buck, I would spend $5700 for a Hegel 360 integrated (which is also a streamer), and devote 8-12 grand on a pair of speakers. GoldenEar Triton Reference would be on my short list of towers to audition. My $.02
I have a pair of Wilson Audio Duette 2's for sale in Audiogon. If there are any Wilson dealers you should take a listen. Super speakers. Absolute Worse case try You tube.
I suppose it does become relative to the investment and long-term goals as to traveling for research. My 1000 mile round trip cost me no more than $250 (fuel, food, and an overnight stay). What I learn from the trips I have taken for two long-term speakers was a wealth of knowledge and an ultimate listening experience which have been priceless.
If you attend RMAF in Denver and extend your stay or arrive early you will find a town full of two channel quality dealers.....possibly one of the best selections in the country. Colorado Springs, Boulder, Ft. Collins and surrounding areas all contribute with some options. You don't have to buy there but the goal being to listen and seek information.
My goal was to buy my last speaker and finish the ride. Now I find the shows much less interesting confirming my ride has finished.
One of the difficulties is that most dealers carry the major brands that are heavily advertised, that is what drives business. Their are many passionate companies who don't get much shelf space. Very sad.
I agree.....but here's a little different angle to auditioning speakers.
What if you're selling a set and a potential out of town buyer that you don't even know wants to come to your house to audition/inspect the speakers. I'm not just talking about the inspection but as the seller, the safety of having a stranger in your home. I know this is a little off topic, but important, IMO.
If it's not important enough to drive across state lines or go to an audio show, buy what's nearby. Or, build your own criteria to filter results on unheard speakers and buy one.
If it's important enough to you, you will spend some money and time on it. If not, so be it.
gwalt, a 500 mile drive; impressive. You know how to get it done. But, then again, that's a case where the cost of the speaker justifies more investigative costs.
It's though for guys on a budget (I know, I was a lower cost audiophile for many years) with perhaps a couple thousand to spend. Does it merit spending the better part of a grand to shop at a show? That's tough to justify when it could hit the quality of the speaker price point. In such a case - and I did many, many times - I became a detective and scoured for info on the product, then bought unheard. It worked out well 90%+ of the time.
Hear a different technology, i..e horn or panel. Sometimes the positive reaction is so strong to a newly heard technology that it's like the buyer was hooked on crack; it almost doesn't matter the absolute quality, the experience is riveting to them. I have to laugh when proponents of certain speaker technologies make declarations of absolute sound superiority. We're talking some very deluded people there... But, that is often a key to finding the best fit for a speaker.
Anyway, listen carefully; learn your ABC's of speakers first. i.e. what the impact of Impedance and Sensitivity mean to speakers, and what different driver sizes will do. Read my article Audiophile Law: Thou Shalt Not Accept Worthless Specs at Dagogo.com to help you avoid some pitfalls. Less experienced speaker buyers seem to ignore or not interpret correctly such things, and they are determinative of the outcome.
It helps to forget the idea that you are after the "best" or "state of the art" sound. No one sells speakers based on the premise that they will give you average sound; they all claim their speakers will give you miraculous sound. Most won't. Just work to make it pleasing to you.
After the hurricane passes - the Lord willing not taking any more lives! - you may or may not be aware that Bruce Thigpen's Eminent Technology speaker company is in Florida. He puts out one of the most value oriented, truly good sounding hybrid panel speakers this side of Mars. I owned and reviewed them, so read up on them, too. In that situation do not let the lower cost fool you, as they are quite good performers. There is a case where technology could have an edge in your ears' opinion. I have a vintage set of LFT VI in my office with a pair of HSU Subs. Not pushing the boundaries, but sufficient.
I bought my pair of Gamut RS7i's from Kyomi Audio in Chicago after a visit to George's in home demo site. This was a 500 mile drive out and back for me but the only way to go IMO. George understands quality sound (as a World renowned Concert Pianist) and recently had an in home demo day for Gamut and another for potential Vivid speaker buyers. The Absolute Sound was at the demos so it was a win for the dealer and potential buyer. Wished there were more quality dealers out there of the same interest but there is not. Use the shows potential TO SEE/HEAR if available but I would always plan on some dollars spent going on some trips to seek out the finalist on your list. I would certainly build that into your budget and take all into account if your investment is going to be long term.
Clearly we need a Tupperware/Mary Kay-like audio business. Drive around in a van and provide an in-home audition party for the audio geek community…"So Clem, these Spendors look GREAT with your stuffed owl collection…let's turn these babies UP. Now…who's ordering the D'Agostinos? Free carpet spikes everybody!"
If you are ever in South Mississippi you are welcome to stop by and listen to my setups. I have a pair of B&W 805D3's. For your comparison I have a pair of custom built Accuton/Raal speakers, which I consider to be the best sounding speakers I've heard by a good margin. Both can be auditioned in a treated room on a Classe amplifier.
I understand your predicament. You are welcome to contact me if interested.
If shows and dealers are not doable, accepting others offers to come and listen is a great idea. And you just may make a great new friend in the process.
@mobius, I would take 333jeffrey up on his offer. There is nothing like auditioning in someone's home. You'll get to see his setup and get some ideas on what you like sound and equipment-wise. I was lucky to have been in NYC in the '80s and got to visit many dealers. I got to see those that shared my interest, those who only wanted a quick sale, and those who thought their recommendations were the final answer. If you do get to visit, give them an advanced warning that you are coming and would like to audition. The good ones will accommodate you and let you listen to your hearts' desire. So, what did I eventually decide upon? Well, it took 30+ years, but I finally got my Vandersteen Treo's with subs and a pair of Atma-Sphere amps and MP-3 preamp. I use the Bluesound Node with an Ayre Codex to stream music from Spotify. I haven't used my extensive CD collection since I went digital-there is so much out there, that I don't need to listen to them anymore. Practically all my equipment is used, most bought here on Audiogon. I have to say this is a great place to meet fellow audionuts. Feel free to PM me. Bob
I feel your pain, it took me about a year, driving all over the place, to find a pair of speakers that hit "the sweet spot".
One thing about the postings here, and the reviews you'll read is that they are all "opinions", and each and every one of us hears differently, has different tastes and so I'd say, the only opinion that matters is yours!
I would recommend you listen to the speakers for a reasonable amount of time. In my opinion, spending some "quality time" with an individual speaker makes a lot of sense, as in my search, a speaker that "knocked my socks off" at my first listening turned out to have a slight "edginess" which made me unable to enjoy them for very long at a sitting.
As for integrating subwoofers, I suggest you read up on the Vandersteen 2Wq subwoofer at the Vandersteen site. IMHO, this is the easiest sub to integrate with any mains that extend down to 40Hz.
As for the demo issue, it's a tough one. For me, personally, it is no contest. I find SF speakers much better sounding than B&W speakers, and I have heard the newest 803 several times. But, speakers are like food, there is no one "best" for everyone. Like you said, though, I can't imagine you being dissappointed with the SFs. Buyer's remorse is a difficult thing. There are many examples of a person buying what they thought was the best speaker, DAC, amp or whatever that they could afford, only to discover something better, and maybe even cheaper, shortly after. The key is getting the best performance out of the gear you choose, and just enjoying listening to music.
In Washington DC we are lucky to have several very good shops - DejaVu Audio (especially), CommandAV, and others. Plus Capitol Audiofest (CAF) is the first weekend in November, attracts a decent number of exhibitors, and is often not too crowded. The other option is to order direct from manufacturers that allow a liberal return policy.
One thing I would strongly recommend is for you to get involved in a local audio club / group. I know there are a couple of options in the central FL area. Great way to experience other members' systems. Members tend to be very knowledgable with lots of experience. There is a very large and active club on the west coast in Tampa and a more informal group on the east central FL coast that has a number of members from the Orlando area.
I'm having the same problem. Sorta fortunately, the system I'm almost settled on, NAD M32 and Focal Aria 936 speakers, are both sold and demo'd by a dealer (Upscale Audio - great people) in the LA area (I live in Las Vegas), so I've been able to go down there (270 miles one way, but I love to drive and crank up the music) to listen. Unfortunately, they didn't have the 926s, which I also considering, when I was there, so I'm going back now that they have both speakers. As the Wicked Witch of the West said, "What a world." :-)
The OP has a budget. I can relate. Here's how to winnow the chaff from the wheat, which ultimately is His Call. If you show up looking like a 'mark', you'll get treated as such. If you appear Serious, it'll at least put them on their toes. If it doesn't and they feed you 'tude, they're a waste of your time and $, because IMHO that's how they view you.
Be as serious as a heart attack. It puts a whole different spin on the experience.
Just trying to help the man out...don't intend to ruffle feathers here. Just been there, did that, burnt the t-shirt, and moved on....;)
*L* Then bring all 3...that immediately marks you as 'serious' as opposed to being just another 'lookie Lou'....if the sound muffs didn't make them pause in the first place....
They charge admission to these things. Well, why not 'charge' them back for your time and attention? It's your money that they're after. Why discount yourself from the get-go?
Besides, you can carry a snack in your parcel. None of these venues seem to have such that isn't priced like 'ball park grub'. Unless you enjoy paying major $ for a f'n hot dog...
'Libations' is a whole other issue...you're kinda stuck there...;)
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