New speakers for a new start?

The sheer cost of MBLs' makes my foray into diy Walsh drivers look like tilting windmills with a toothpick, but overall I'm pleased with what I'm creating.

Since speakers are the last and most important item in your personal formula for audio nirvana...

....'audition' what you can, 'best guess' what you can't, and be steeled for freight returns...

...and Remember:

'Breaking In' is as much You as the component....👍🤞

@devinplombier wrote:

"I love planar speakers for their speed and transparency, but the fact that I can't sit still in their minuscule sweet spot for very long..."

So if I understand correctly, you would like a wide sweet spot area.

Let me suggest three possible approaches to getting an enjoyable soundstage across a fairly wide listening area.  First, a bit of background:

The ear localizes sound by ARRIVAL TIME and INTENSITY.  When you are sitting in the center sweet spot, the arrival time and intensity are the same from both speakers for a vocalist in the center of the soundstage.  When you move off to one side, the near speaker normally WINS both "arrival time" (because it is closer) AND "intensity" (because it is louder, especially if you are now more on-axis of the near speaker and more off-axis of the far speaker).  Normally the location of the center vocalists shifts further than YOU do:  If you move one foot to the left, the center vocalist may move two feet to the left, because the left speaker is "winning" BOTH arrival time and intensity.  If  you move too far to the left, the vocalist seems to be located at the left speaker.

Okay the first approach that gives you an unusually wide sweet spot is to use omnidirectional speakers.  The near speaker will still "win" arrival time of course, but it will "win" intensity by only a small margin, so the image shift towards the near speaker is not as severe.

The second approach that gives you an unusually wide sweet spot is to use line-source-approximating speakers that have a fairly wide and exceptionally uniform radiation pattern.  Sound pressure level falls off more gradually with distance from a line source than from a point source, so the difference in intensity (loudness) betwen the near and far speakers is often even less than with omnidirectional speakers.

The third approach is to use speakers with exceptionally uniform but not very wide radiation patterns (maybe 90 degrees wide), and toe them in aggressively such that the patterns criss-cross IN FRONT OF the main listening area.  So what happens is, as you move off to one side you are moving off-axis of the near speaker but on-axis of the far speaker.  So the far speaker is actually LOUDER, and this somewhat offsets the earlier arrival time of the near speaker!  This is called "time-intensity trading".  In order for it to work well, the output of the near speaker must fall off SMOOTHLY and RAPIDLY as you move off-axis.

This is a big subject and I've only addressed one aspect of it here. I can go into more detail if you'd like.

Duke

dealer/manufacturer

Couple thoughts 

Given that you are building from scratch, I agree vehemently in starting with speakers first.  Speakers are frequently the worst component in terms of resale  and visually the most prominent combined with being heavy, easily damaged and hard to handle.  

You mention "I love planar speakers for their speed and transparency, but the fact that I can't sit still in their minuscule sweet spot for very long, coupled with their general lack of bass probably makes them a less than ideal choice for me."

This is more of a view of one particular brand rather than all Planars.  There are others that behave very differently.  Take a look at Diptyque.  These have MUCH better bass response and overall are an exciting speaker that works quite well and have a broader sweetspot. 

For that same sort of immersive experience you could look at speakers beyond Legacy which is a nice product.  Brands to consider:

1. Borreson which is a hot at the moment is an interesting product as is.  These are tough to place in-room but if they work in your space they are amazing

2. Raidho/Scansonic which is Borreson's former company. Same issue as Borreson, hard to place but have a broader range of pricing.

3. Audiovector as it delivers a similar experience, is easier to place and is far more reasonably priced. That said, they aren't as novel as Borreson at the moment.

There are a million other speakers around that are great.  Everything from Martin Logan, Vivid, Wilson Benesch, Wilson, Magico, Rockport, Marten, etc...  You need to find ones that you want to look at and deliver the experience you want.  

Full disclosure, I am a Diptyque, Audiovector, Raidho and Wilson Benesch dealer.  I have no affiliation with any of the other brands mentioned.  

I also love the sound of electrostatics, but having massive 6 foot tall panels anywhere in my house is a definite no go.

One possibly surprising, fairly mainstream choice are Monitor Audio speakers. They are surprisingly fast in sound and are well controlled. Whereas something like B&W speakers definitely fall on the analytical and harsh side, I’ve found that the MA speakers are just on the fine line between warm and analytical in sound.

The Silver series is good. The Gold series is better. I haven’t heard their Platinum series of speakers. A friend is running his 6G Silver 500s (current MSRP of $3200 for a pair) with a Modwright preamp and Pass power amp and it sounds delightful. They seem fairly easy to drive from an amplification standpoint.The speakers have kept up with every improvement in amplification that he has made in the last several years.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/monitor-audio-silver-500-7g-loudspeaker

The sheer cost of MBLs’ makes my foray into diy Walsh drivers look like tilting windmills with a toothpick

@asvjerry I used to own a pair of Ohm Walsh - can’t remember which ones. I didn’t keep them very long but they were wonderful speakers when paired with the type of listening they were intended for. I googled Ohm Walsh and I was surprised to find out Ohm is not only very much alive but supporting their old speakers. Kudos for making your own!

’Breaking In’ is as much You as the component....👍🤞

Truer words were rarely spoken :)

I think I would lean towards speakers that handle the reproduction of octave 0 "in-house", so to speak; as opposed to subcontracting it to a pair of subs.

Now that ought to narrow down the field.

I’m not a huge fan of subs, though I have a 12" velodyne in my home theater and everyone loves it, myself included. But conceptually I feel that HT and 2-channel belong in different realms that shouldn’t intersect: different gear, separate rooms. What’s good for 2-ch isn’t good for HT, and vice versa (at least that’s how I look at it). Punchy, forward, bright, bombastic antics are OK with HT, desirable even. But even so, I set my sub’s low pass at 50 Hz which is a bit above where my front towers roll off. The idea being to let the towers do their job and let the sub shake the couch. I tried playing with higher crossover points and it was not enthused.

Now, I’m not suggesting that subwoofers may not be gracefully integrated in a high-quality 2-ch system, but I’m afraid that without active crossovers and DSP I would lack the expertise (and the patience) to do so successfully.

Then another vote for JBLs. 12 inch woofers move a lot of air. No sub needed.

Here is your end all choice in speakers

Revival top model is $5K

Revival Audio - Atalante 5 Speakers

Best sound I have heard in a very long time especial at this price.

Do you research on who designs them.

Happy Listening.

@devinplombier ...Re: 'breaking in' as a recurrent 'event'....I find when I've been away out of town for a substantial time in the past, it's taken a day or so to 'reboot' ears and gray gook to to recall my impressions of what I'm used to hearing....

Given what I may have been subject to in the intervening time, I've resorted to chalking it off to 'alien influences', none of which I'd been exposed to if, for example, your audio centricities.... ;) ....some of which may not obvious to me.

You are what you hear.

Kinda goes for all of us; amazing that enough agree to agree that they've noticed the same sonic detailed language that many here agree is 'a bit florid, overused, or (my current fav among excuses) composed by an AI while being, in theory, coached by....?

Having DSP & an active xover is a definitive plus, and a lot of amps @ ones' dispersement ....so to speak...*S*

Anyway....here,  something very different...

I have a similar setup and would recommend locating a dealer or user of the mid to larger Martin Logan ESL models with powered bass cabinets, (i.e. Ethos, Montis, etc). No lack of bass and at your listening distance not completely locked into a position.

I did a quick scan of the responses and was amazed at the variety of suggestions. You didn't specify if you would accept a vintage design or not, but if you want great transient response and a sound stage that emulates a real performance in a startling way, one choice would be a pair of Ohm Fs. Terrific omnidirectional speaker that has very good overall frequency response with great coherency and a faultless soundstage. Another consideration would be the currently made Ohm F5s that give truly full range response 16-20k with an integrated 15" sub in the bottom of each enclosure. I personally have not yet heard the F5s, but I have heard the Ohm As and they remain the finest speakers I have ever heard, the Ohm Fs were a bit smaller but had the same sonic signature. Ohm offers 120 day trial period that would give you plenty of time to audition it thoroughly. If you find you don't like them you can send em back for a refund. Seems like a very limited risk with a possible really good upside. Really a home audition is the ONLY way you should evaluate speakers in my opinion. I'll be very curious to know what you choose.

Monitor Audio Gold 200

Luxeman amp solid state or tube

I join everyone who recommends Vandersteen. They fill with great airy sound whole apartment so you can listen to them even from the kitchen. And I can tell you, that I listen to death and black metal, also hardcore and this music is not a problem for them, they are fast enough. And this was my only junior model for a small room. I'm afraid to imagine what the older ones are doing!

I auditioned a pair of the new generation Wilson Watt Puppy (wierd name) last weekend. I was shocked. Holographic, literally perfect bass and a lovely room filling warm sound.   I am biased against Wilson because of the name brand Hos that tout them. However they were magic.   
 

i also listened to a set of Alexx V.  I was disappointed as they are tripple the Watt Puppus but sounded only 15% better to me. In my personal opinion they are not “pretty” furniture speakers but the quality of the aound made a believer of me.  

There are so many speakers on the market, that I am inclined to recommend an approach. I would start by reviewing the Recommended Components issues of Stereophile, the Absolute Sound and HiFi+. This will give you a short list of highly reviewed brands to look at. In the reviews you will get a flavor for the tastes of the reviewers and requirements to power them. This approach is likely to net you a better short list than from here. Once you have a firm short list… go listen to as many as possible. Then maybe run it by here.

@yesiam_a_pirate I share your bias against Wilsons. Same reasoning.

I happened to hear a pair of them today - not sure what model but probably not high in their lineup. It was in a shop, I walked into a listening room looking for someone, and the Wilsons were playing. My snapshot impression, admittedly based only on a 10-second clip of polite audiophile music heard standing up, was that they seemed to do a number of things very well, but in a check-the-boxes kind of way that felt uninspiring and that didn’t compel me to sit and take a better listen. And boy, they were not pretty.

I have a couple of auditions set up next week and I will be reporting :)

Arendal has great sound and build quality for not a lot of money.  And there is no middleman markup.

...and I'm pleased that omnis', of whatever means, are 'still ah playyah...'

:)

Volti Razz

Pure Audio Project Trio

Goldenear Triton

KEF R Series

Get into a Linkwitz LX521 multi-amplified system.  $100k sound for a price we mere mortals can afford.  Really.  You can build the kit from scratch, for as little as $6k,  or you can just buy a turn-key system for about $21k, which is actually a bargain.

The only other system Iʻd consider to be a comparable value is the Dutch & Dutch 8c ($15k).  Extraordinary technology, imaging, natural quality.  Especially good for low-level listening, great dynamic range and able to play at higher levels as well.

Speakers are the most subjective component in your system. Make an effort to audition speakers at brick and mortar stores, hi-fi shows, friends, etc. Reviews can lead you, but let your ears decide. Hopefully you can get a trial period for testing. My current speakers were under 5K, and punch way above their weight. It would be pointless (mostly braggadocio) to recommend (tell you what I think you should...). With a new, and return to system, I would suggest a reputable dealer that spells out their trade in and trade up policy (customer for life philosophy), and can help with compatibility and setup, which is surprisingly important. For most of the people pursuing quality sound reproduction, perfection in their first (second, third, forever) system is not expected, but an ability to advance is. The stand-mount segment (formerly "Book Shelf" has exploded with technology, innovation and truly amazing performance since you were hear last (btw).

I know they are out of business, but designs are still being made by new company.. I am referring to Consensus Audio. If you ever get a chance to see/hear them, do it. The sound is clear, clean and magical… Bob

You have a big room. You need a big room speaker. Most of the recommendations here are for medium sized rooms at best, or way over your #5K limit.  I would definitely check out the new SVS Ultra evolution Pinnacles. With 4-8" woofers (2 high front and rear 2 low, front and rear) per cabinet, bass extension, dynamic range, 'speed' and control are assured. The d'Appolito mid-tweet-mid helps control vertical dispersion, a big help in large, high-ceiling rooms that helps soundstage and imaging. And nobody does value better than SVS - at $5000 per pair new, they are one of the great deals in audio.

I would also check around and see if you can find a pair of JBL 4349. These are not your father's shrieking, boomy JBLs. These are superbly executed, very high performance loudspeakers of exceptional sound and build quality. New, at $8250/pr, they are beyond you budget, but if you can locate a good used pair, you might be able to pull them into your range.  At 91+dB sensitivity, the also need about half the power of most of their competition, but can handle just about any amp you're likely to try. The single 12" woofer has slam. Kick drum and bass are easily among the most accurately rendered I've heard in pitch definition and dynamics. The unique 2-way horn/tweeter has a nominal 90X40 degree pattern, again, helping control unwanted room reflections, and it simply doesn't ever honk or shriek. It's just there - clear and dynamic.

The Linkwitz LX521s came up in dipole speakers discussions and they look really, really good, but €27000 is far more than in willing to spend at this point. The kit option is interesting, but the lower price is misleading since no electronics are included so, unless you purchase the Linkwitz dedicated electronics, you'll never get the system or sound that Linkwitz intended. 

Madisound sells the Linkwitz "enclosures" in kdk form for not much money, so that you could theoretically put together a similarly functional system with a dbx DSP unit and a couple of Crown XLSs for oomph. Which, by the way, are NCore-based just like the Linkwitz if I'm not mistaken.

I don't know, kits are by and large the surest way to lose money, at least in the short term. But if I were to allow myself to spend $30K on a pair of speakers right now, I would definitely look at these.

I recently bought the ceramic mini monitors and the BMR monitors from https://philharmonicaudio.com I prefer the minis even though they don’t go as low on bass as the BMR because of the smooth wide distribution of the ceramic tweeter. Both are well made and a great value for the money.

Steve Huff raves about the OGY from https://www.closeracoustics.com/post/introducing-ogy-our-first-bookshelf-loudspeaker

https://youtu.be/G_xSbQylt50?si=54LFO5qRJ13kzbjA

PS audio also has a new monitor https://youtu.be/lVM8oynxy4s?si=1gUnR7jWLAd1bviy

Vandersteen are great too, especially if you love bass.

The Dutch & Dutch 8cs have impressive specs, especially for their size. I mean, 30 Hz at -1.5 dB in a bookshelf speaker?

They get rare praise from both ASR and Erin’s Corner, who usually don't like anything. Tons of other rave reviews too.

And they look good, if you fork over the extra $2000 over the Pro version, which has identical specs but looks like a $119 Monoprice speaker.

One more exhibit in the case that active crossover + DSP dedicated electronics rule.

I may go audition them.

all pf these speakers sound very different with different components attached.

You didn't specify if you would accept a vintage design

@livinon2wheels Vintage, yes, to an extent. 90s and aughts? Definitely. 80s? Maybe, depends. 70s and older? Probably not, although there are exceptional older speakers out there, but they tend to be best paired with music and listening styles they were designed for.

So, Infinity IRS? Would love a set. Big Apogees? Big Thiels? Absolutely. 

+1 for the JBL 4349s. They're on my future list. 4367s even more but that's more of a wish list. 

@devinplombier I have the Dutch & Dutch 8c's in a rather difficult room for bass, asymmetric and uneven. I place them 30cm from the front wall, use their built-in adjustments, and the bass is the best I've every had in this room, flat to 20hz. Perhaps a swarm would be better, which I've had in another home, but not by much. I also use Theoretica Applied Physics Bacch and Optimal Room Correction (ORC), so their response/target curve is very easily tuned ideally for my taste. I now have some fantastic gear sitting in my rack with the power off since these do everything you need. I can't recommend the 8c's highly enough, awesome speakers.

I’d go for Ohm Walsh 5000s or similar:

if you can find a pair or afford new ones and drive them with a high power newer Class D amplification, 100 watts minimum or as high as you can go. I’d recommend Hypex or Purifi based like those from Vtv, Orchard, or Deer Creek or maybe one of the newer GaN based Class D amps. Peachtree Corina GaN would be an easy choice. PASCAL based like D Sonic for example or Benchmark amplification using their AHB2 amp is another option if a more clinical pro audio type sound is what you like. Once settled look at options for streaming and applying DSP to best enable fine tuning system to room and listening preferences.

I auditioned a set of Sanders 10e speakers driven by a pair of Sanders Magtech monoblocks and a dbx active crossover and DSP unit.

Yes, I know they are the exact opposite of some of the things I’ve said I wanted. Their sweet spot is strictly one-person wide. No "social" listening here, although those dire move-your-head-one-inch-to-the-left-and-all-is-lost comments you read around forums are, let’s say hyperbolic. While the range of lateral motion the listener is allowed is definitely limited, vertical departure from the listening axis is worse. When I stood from the listening chair, the drastic deterioration in sound quality was shocking. It was literally as though a motorcycle helmet had been dropped on my head. I was not expecting that, but then again I am tall so my ear level was above the top of the panels.

In my book that’s not a total, complete, 100% showstopper - a person seldom listens to music standing up, after all - but it’s definitely a suboptimal attribute.

I’ll close the negative section with a passing mention that these speakers, while not offensively ugly like some, are no fashion statement either. They may look like Maggies propped up against large wood-clad air duct elbows, but I could live with them in my home. Again, no showstopper here.

Now on to the good part - they sounded totally fantastic. Not only do they have all the detail, speed, transparency, and lack of distortion coloration one expects from good panels, but the bass was really pretty amazing. Fast, deep, assertive and coherent, with good extension into the lowest octave.

I have certainly never heard hybrid electrostatics with such great bass integration before.

Only once did the 10" woofers hint that they do have limits, with a song whose truly grotesque amount of bass was better suited to a parking lot car-sub showdown (not sure who the artist was, it was not from the music I brought with me).

A pair of brand new Wilson Watt Puppies was also set up in the listening room. As a point of comparison, I listened to some of my music on them. They were paired with high quality electronics (better than the Sanders), as they were driven by massive Class A monoblocks. The Puppies sounded competent and had surprisingly good bass, but to my ears they felt uninvolving and dim. Even if they were not broken in, it was still probably a little unfair to audition them next to the Sanders, but it provided a good reference point.

The Sanders can play LOUD. Sanders say that their panels cannot arc and have virtually no power limit, so unlike most electrostatics a person can crank them without fear of doom.

I usually believe that less is more, so initially I felt unsure about the signal undergoing analog-to-digital-to-analog conversions in the DSP unit. But the result is what counts, and the Sanders sounded wonderful.

In summary - during this session I discovered amazingly good speakers, and I also managed to confuse myself further. Am I willing to live with the Sanders’ cramped, selfish listening spot? It’s not a definite no. Are there even speakers out there that rival the Sanders but without its stark limitations? I do want to audition Dutch & Dutch 8c (someone local is willing to oblige for a $200 fee, which is creditable to the purchase if I do decide to ,order a pair).

I am attracted towards DSP-based active speakers like the 8c and Legacy Focus XD, which are basically what the Sanders are, packaged.

Since the last post I have auditioned Dutch & Dutch 8c. Honestly they sounded amazing, but I had a lot of questions regarding features and usability that I couldn't find answers for in D&D's vaguely written website. Some got answered in this thread, including by Dutch & Dutch's owner:

Internally, we've referred to our vision as "high-end Sonos"

The above quote makes as good an executive summary as any for anyone not wishing to read the entire thread.