New expensive power cord for amp and no change in sound?
I bought new an expensive(for me) well known and reviewed power cord for my very good amp and plugged it directly onto the wall socket. After a couple of weeks of daily use I hear no change in the sound quality from a $500 cord. I don’t want to name it for fear of getting my thread deleted. You would know it or at least be aware of the company. Did I throw away several thousand dollars? Before I get the snake oil answer I want to let you know that I bought an upgraded cord for my pre as suggested by the pre’s manufacturer and am pleased with the results.
I guess for full disclosure the amp’s manufacturer said don’t bother. But I had had good luck with the pre so I thought it would be a good idea.
I made another 5 PCs listening video since my system sounds closer to the original music with more sound improvement and my ears noticeably changed to stronger (less sensitive, less ear ringing, etc.) and relaxed (less watery eyes, less brightness = less dilated pupils, etc).
The transition to natural sound ears/brain took 3~4 days with a minor headache and my ears felt like a cotton ball clogged my ear canals. So, I know many of you won't hear the sound difference between PCs' sounds. But for some serous listeners, check below comparison.
2) Make a small YT window (narrow & tall = right half screen) to see the video screen and time stamps in description).
3) Listen at least 1 minute each and repeat. To hear better, listen to the original music (link in description). Just relax and feel what comes to your ears when you click. Alex/WTA
- your comments seem to focus on money and sarcasm, remember this is an audio site. Just because you don’t or won’t hear differences only speaks for you and depletes the value of your contribution.
fusebox, 30ga thin wiring through house to outlet, and a 4gs cord will change water to wine? Nope.
even 10-12- self wired to stereo wall won’t do much.
I’ve tried, listened, seriously listened, retturn it, ether RCA connects, if not, return, buy ore music. Or demo new speakers?
are you lacking a specific tone, or, bass, or just experimenting with tweaks?
power cords will drive u nuts, rca’s inferential coppers, and silver will give you some higher cymbals rashes, a bit more hang time.
save your hairline, and pocket, Tweak rcas, or new cart, or CD player.
@roxy1927most $500 cables are kind of bare bones with no geometry yet and just twisted pair copper that’s 14-12 awg. That won’t work well on an amp and they need 10-8 awg or better. Try a few more from a lending library from a cable manufacturer or a dealer in the 800-1200 range. See if you hear anything.
I have noticed the most improvement on digital devices using better power cords. Noticed this primarily on friend's systems who have invested more in digital than I have in my systems. In fact one of the cables used in these comparisons was about a $ 3,000.00 Shunyata. Bettered the cord I brought over by a healthy margin. Of course my cord retailed for about $ 750.00 and I got it at dealer cost.
@roxy1927,I too have a Pass 250.8 and an ARC REF 6 pre. Switching from the stock ARC power cord to a Shunyata Alpha v2 yielded a definitely noticeable improvement in the sound. On the other hand, I first replaced my Pass stock power cord with an Audience Power Chord that I had. There was a definite improvement in the tightness of the bass, audible but not amazing. Then I replaced the Audience with another Shunyata Alpha v.2 and really didn’t notice any improvement, So I think that it depends on whether you are replacing a stock cable and where in the system you place it.
Most likely some sort of grounding issue. A thing you can try is get a 3 prong to 2 prong cheap adaptor which will remove the grounding pin at the wall outlet to see if this changes things. This is just to identify the problem this is not a permanent solution. FWIW.
I have 2 highly regarded power cords right now. They are both around 10ish years old. New equivalent models would be in the 4K range. Cord one causes a loud hum hooked up to tube integrated. Cord 2 everything is dead quiet. Neither made noise on another amp I had them hooked up to. Strange.
westcoast, I think I got you confused with another poster. So my somewhat aggressive stanch may have been directed at another person on this thread. Keep this in mind if you respond.
Somehow I doubt that. If this were true you should mention your experiment, give some details and say you heard no difference. All this other stuff is tribal. You go way past giving your opinion, ridicule others that dont share your opinion so that you are on record so you can find other like minded individuals which gives you comfort.
I am happy to give you a list of all the cables that I have used in the past 5 years. I can give you a list of power conditioners but I dont use these as any gains were offset by diminishments. Please share your experiences. Instead of smug remarks add something to this thread of substance.
Or you can just admit you dont buy into any of this at the theorectical level and be done with it. If you havent tried a bunch of cables no problem but dont get upset if some on this forum think this puts you in no position to comment.
Why do you guys care? If you believe that most of this stuff is snake oil then dont buy it. There always seems to be an undercurrent of smugness when you guys discuss how others spend their money in ways you deem inappropriate. I dont understand the thought process or the motivation. Seems like a circle jerk to me, albeit one with no clear purpose.
Expensive Cables, Wires, and Power Cords to make a huge difference on your wallet and that can affect your listening experience. Because you spent so much money you're going to hear things you never heard before. Like your brain telling you you should have never spent that much money on snake oil.
Very true!
Paul McGowen frequently uses the phrase snake oil. And he's a major seller of such.
That's why I don't watch his channel anymore and it (selling snake oil power cables conditioners) affects sales negatively.
Expensive Cables, Wires, and Power Cords to make a huge difference on your wallet and that can affect your listening experience. Because you spent so much money you're going to hear things you never heard before. Like your brain telling you you should have never spent that much money on snake oil. Joke joke joke. I don't put a lot of stock in it. I bought some great wires and cables etc and I've had some really cheap ones.. The problem with the cheap ones is the build quality. Of course you never go for the cheapest stuff ever. Put yourself a reasonable spending limit on them and spend within your budget. I mean you should really consider it when you're buying a system that you know you're going to need cables, wires and etc etc. These are just accessories and there's a difference between the good and the bed and the ugly. The good is half decent Brands at good price. The bad is the Rock bottom cheap ones that don't have the best wiring or connections. The ugly is the overpriced ones that try to sell you something that is snake oil. Be a smart, educated buyer. Just cuz you're eating a steak. Doesn't mean you need a gold fork.
Expensive Cables, Wires, and Power Cords to make a huge difference on your wallet and that can affect your listening experience. Because you spent so much money you're going to hear things you never heard before. Like your brain telling you you should have never spent that much money on snake oil. Joke joke joke. I don't put a lot of stock in it. I bought some great wires and cables etc and I've had some really cheap ones.. The problem with the cheap ones is the build quality. Of course you never go for the cheapest stuff ever. Put yourself a reasonable spending limit on them and spend within your budget. I mean you should really consider it when you're buying a system that you know you're going to need cables, wires and etc etc. These are just accessories and there's a difference between the good and the bed and the ugly. The good is half decent Brands at good price. The bad is the Rock bottom cheap ones that don't have the best wiring or connections. The ugly is the overpriced ones that try to sell you something that is snake oil. Be a smart, educated buyer. Just cuz you're eating a steak. Doesn't mean you need a gold fork.
I didn’t read all the post so if someone mentioned this. You stated in first post “after a couple weeks of daily use I hear no difference”. Does daily use mean you are not running cord 24/7? Even if you are running amp 24/7 300 hours may not be enough to burn in your cable. If it’s not run in it will sound thin.
I've read this thread and each poster has his/her reasons for buying in or not on the power cables. JMO but had an experience that confirmed for me, in my system, that they do matter.
Purchased some speakers, Evolution MM3s. Decided to get the Evolution power cords for the powered woofers. You know, recommended kit yada, yada. Had some Fusion Enchanters for my Monoblocks, ribbons. Well the Evolutions were 6' and the Fusions 5'. Basically had to switch as the run to the speakers was easily reached with the Fusions cords and needed the longer cables to reach the amps. So I flipped them. Significant difference. Didn't expect it, didn't want it to be so. Therefore no expectation bias. The difference was as plain as day.
KUDOS, for experimenting with your system's sound/trusting your ears & senses.
Supra follows some of the same basic science/construction as I've mentioned, if you've read their explanation, as to why their PCs sound better* than stock/common wire.
cables that, from my perspective, are priced absurdly high, make no sense.
I agree.
However: those more comfortably situated than I, with much higher end systems and larger/better listening environs, can afford and demand the very best the likes of Kimber, Analysis Plus and Synergistic have to offer.
Full disclosure, I make my own power cords using Supra wire and their connectors. These are relatively inexpensive and they certainly do a fine job whether the component is tube or solid-state. And while I've experienced merelt changes or an occasional "improvement" in SQ from wire to wire, cables that, from my perspective, are priced absurdly high, make no sense.
The purveyors of those high-priced wires will, of course, disagree.
"Unless there was something very wrong with your last power cord, or it was just a very poorly made one, you’re not going to here any differences other than those that occur within your own mind via confirmation bias."
- prove it
The scientific methodology that can found/support/refute theories works on disproof via hypothesis testing. Science doesn’t prove anything. Very common misunderstanding.
The crux of this thread’s OP is that an expensive power cord was compared to a more expensive power cord (albeit with the usual flaws that make an uncontrolled design) and no difference was detected. That is, quite literally, hypothesis testing for difference, and @roxy1927failed to reject the null (Ho = no difference).*
I understand why the deterministic claim of another poster you quoted might have bothered you, @dill- fine. But instead of picking at someone for typographical errors or for stating a strongly-toned difference of opinion, consider further study on how experimentation works. The info is out there and free. 😉
This thread posed something different from the paradigms of increasing sonic returns for money spent and being able to count on improvements using one’s own hearing (maybe). But it’s one uncontrolled (sighted, ill-timed, etc.) design that merely supports a camp of cables-can’t-be-audibly-different by way of failing to reject a null.
No big deal, really. If everyone chats about their experiences but no one’s controlling for their biases or setup, then it’s all different variants of apples and oranges - nothing that comparable when everything is confounded by incongruous variables, hey?
*in hypothesis testing, the investigator(s) will not “accept” a hypothesis any more than they’ll prove something. They reject, or fail to reject. That may look like semantics in print, but it’s a very important discrepancy in practice.
No one can tell you whether/how your system, room and/or ears will respond to some new addition. There are simply too many variables.
LIKEWISE: no one can possibly know whether a new addition (ie: some kind of disc, crystal, fuse, interconnect, speaker cable, etc) will make a difference, in their system and room, with their media and to their ears, without trying them for themselves.
Some companies offer a 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee, so- those that are actually interested, have absolutely nothing to lose by trying (experimenting with) such.
Anyone that knows anything about the sciences, realizes that something like 96% of what makes up this universe, remains a mystery.
For centuries; humanity’s seen, heard, felt and otherwise witnessed phenomena, that none of the best minds could explain, UNTIL they developed a science or measurement, that could explain it.
The Naysayer Church wants you to trust their antiquated science (1800’s electrical theory) and faith-based, religious doctrine, BLINDLY (their credo: "Trust ME!").
Theories have never proven or disproven anything. It’s INVARIABLY testing and experimentation that proves or disproves theories/hypotheses.
IF you’re interested in the possibility of improving your system’s presentation, have a shred of confidence in your capacity for perceiving reality and trust your own senses: actually TRY whatever whets your aural appetite, FOR YOURSELF.
often, if it sounds "different" it will sound better to some and not to others...and yes, many here have done blind tests, but to decide for ourselves, no need to "prove" to others...no one here really wants to spend money and get nothing in return...though some seem to think many here do and are not able to make reasonable decisions for themselves...
@dill - Shouldn’t you want to "prove it"? What experiment or test do you propose that will allow for a fair evaluation? There’s no "better", there’s just different. Beyond a certain level of build or materials quality, more money gets you nothing except that warm and cozy feeling of certainty that comes with confirmation bias. Take away the labels, do a blind test, and you will never be able to discern good, better, or best. To paraphrase Pete Townsend, "Is it in my head?". You bet it is.
►Definite improvement from $10 stock cord to $100 level after market cord on every component. Usually heard in elimination of background ’noise’. or just improved power delivery
►Once a system is built that is close to one’s ideal (say a 7-8 out of 10), then power cords can make another medium/large step toward that ideal (to reach that 8.5-9 out of ten level). At times, I’ve noticed connectors can contribute significantly (almost as much as the cable) in some cords (think Furutech, Oyaide, etc.)
►Cable size, geometry, materials (copper, silver, carbon, air dialectric), and cryogenic or ’cooking’ treatment can definitely contribute to achieving that ’last mile or two’ of performance/preference.
► After starting with Bob Crump’s (TG Audio) cords over 25 years ago, I’ve probably tried 30-40 different power cords over the years, with mixed results. I’m currently using a large diameter silver power cord (Tek-Line) on an amp, smaller diameter diameter cord on transport (Acrolink 7N4020III w/Oyaide 004 connectors), and Argento Flow Master on DAC. Electraglide or other ribbon cord(s) on things tubed, especially preamp. YMMV.
►Like most of us, I have quite the collection of power cords, interconnects, speaker cables in the [big] boxes in the closet. And I must say, most I actually liked at the time; just moved on to 'better(?)' 😊
"Unless there was something very wrong with your last power cord, or it was just a very poorly made one, you're not going to here any differences other than those that occur within your own mind via confirmation bias."
Unless there was something very wrong with your last power cord, or it was just a very poorly made one, you're not going to here any differences other than those that occur within your own mind via confirmation bias.
And (again):
Anyone that feels compelled to harp on not hearing any differences, is obviously too obtuse to understand the term "variables" (as frequently mentioned) and worthy of disregard.
The claims made by so many ultra-high-end cable companies are pure sci-fi fantasy-- and they have the non-science to back them up! Just go for quality made cables that use quality materials, especially the connectors, and you'll be fine. Don't drive yourself mad buying into voodoo claims made by companies that make obscene profits by trying to differentiate their products with sci-fi lullabies.
Another rerun, since so many of you are a waste of keystrokes:
Cargo cults are religious practices that have appeared in many traditional tribal societies in the wake of interaction with technologically advanced cultures.
Do a bit of research and you'll learn those primitives were limited in their understanding of what they saw with their eyes, based on their prior experience, education and BIASES.
A rewind:
It isn't that the Denyin'tologists are ignorant.
It's they're knowing* so much, that's WRONG.
*heart of the Dunning-Kruger Effect
OR, two:
The Church of the Naysayer Doctrine (like every other faith-based, religious cult) has as many dopes as it does Popes.
Bring up anything resembling SCIENCE/PHYSICS, dated later than the 1800’s and they become apoplectic, not having the formal education to comprehend the concepts, or- possible ramifications. THAT would be hilarious, were it not so pathetic!
Gimme That Old Time Religion, Gimme That Old Time Religion, etc.
At the very first mention of something as simple as Wave Function (a BASIC tenet of Quantum Mechanics), the Cargo Cult will label you a KOOK.
But remember: they can only view/understand you, based on their limited experience, education and BIASES.
They have overlooked the fact that, if not for the hypotheses/theories and experimentation, regarding Quantum Mechanics: a plethora of modern conveniences, medical devices and the gear they so love, would not exist.
Had scientists, chemists and inventors shared the doctrines of the Cargo Cult (Denyin'tologists), there would be no semiconductors, computer chips, LASERs, or Magnetic Resonance Imaging devices (MRIs).
Solid State amps?
OOPS (back to tubes)!
Your Smart Phone?
FA'GET ABOUT IT!
Your car's GPS?
NOPE!
Then too: some may be willfully ignorant and just enjoy being contentious.
Others: obtuse, uneducated*, misinformed?
*Typically, from what's been exhibited here: H.S. STEM, if that, would be a safe inference.
Either way: the result, when the Cult begins its rhetoric, is a classic demo of the Dunning- Kruger Effect.
But, I digress:
Bring up those pesky details, regarding the likes of QED, Dielectric Absorption, Poynting's theorem and possible application/effects, relative to frequency, that our musical signals are carried via photon or wave, outside the conductor and you're a KOOK?
Again: the Cargo Cult can only understand anyone with an actual background, experience and education in Physics/QED, based on THEIR own beliefs, education, experience and biases
Remember this?.
One anecdote that some may find interesting: their walks in the woods and how his father would encourage him to look beyond the fact that something in nature exists, into why and how.
It saddened him that while attending college, during a visit home and one of their walks: his dad asked what he was learning in college.
At that moment, Feynman realized: if he tried to explain what he was learning, there was no way his dad could understand.
Einstein got that last one wrong (Quantum Entanglement), BUT- I still wish he'd been alive, when the Hubble Telescope proved, what he considered his, "greatest blunder" (his inability to bring symmetry to his field equation, without lambda).
Unless there was something very wrong with your last power cord, or it was just a very poorly made one, you're not going to here any differences other than those that occur within your own mind via confirmation bias. This has been tested to death. BTW, no one will ever be able to rank a set of well made power cords by quality based upon what they cost. So spending stupid money on cords would be far better spent on room treatments or better gear IMO. I liken these kinds of gimmicks to the nutraceutical industries claims about their pills and potions-- they (almost) never EVER stand up to any kind of real scientific inquiry. The placebo effect however is very real and in almost all cases, the products never test better than the placebo control group. The claims made by so many ultra-high-end cable companies are pure sci-fi fantasy-- and they have the non-science to back them up! Just go for quality made cables that use quality materials, especially the connectors, and you'll be fine. Don't drive yourself mad buying into voodoo claims made by companies that make obscene profits by trying to differentiate their products with sci-fi lullabies.
Not buying it. The voltage drop across a few feet of power cable can't be more than a volt. This is insignificant compared to the normal variability of the supply fluctuations between 114 and 126 VAC.
@noromanceI've measured over 2 Volts, but that was on a class A triode amp that made 140 Watts... or it did if the AC was right. When the spec line Voltage was at 120V the amp only made 100 Watts. The measured AC line Voltage at the IEC connection was closer to 117V as opposed to the Voltage at the outlet. A 40 Watt loss is not only very measurable but also audible.
As I said earlier, the power draw from the line is an important aspect of what you can hear and measure. Internal power supply regulation as well as feedback to allow the amp (or preamp) to reject effects of AC line Voltage have an effect as well. So some people will hear things and others will not.
This also explains why many people report better sound at night (which the AC line Voltage tends to be higher).
Trust your ears. There are many PC review videos. Don’t trust reviewer’s ears. Listen to the recording of the actual PC. Comparison videos are better. Microphones don’t lie. Human ears are biased always and they trick us. If I like A sound better than B sound in a comparison video, I like A sound better in real life too. Alex/WTA
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
