New electrical wiring specifications

I'm glad someone asked this question.  I'd like to know how this has worked out for the members that have gone down this road.  

@digitaljoseph, see here

@rick_n, It has worked out great for me! Money well spent.

Mike

I went down the 10/3 Romex route, std 15amp breakers. You can get special audio grade wire, which I am sure gets expensive quick. I did two circuits (I am using a stereo amp). This made a very significant improvement, very cost effective at around $1.5K. Later I upgraded from the hospital grade receptacles to Isotek and got another very cost effective improvement (~$400). 

I would think this would be a basic approach. If your system is or will be very good and you can afford it, it would be justified in going further. 

Regarding receptacles about a year ago I bought some Voodoo cryoed receptacles. Previously I've owned Oyaide and Furutech. Prefer the Voodoo.

Put your earth spike under an a/c drain, if you have a/c.

This stops drying out in the summer.

I would PM @jea48,

He is one of the best members on things electrical, IMO

Bob

I have done several rooms in different houses over the years- 10 gauge from the local sub panel, 20 amp receptacles. The receptacles can be a subject of debate- there are some pretty spendy ones that use different coatings on the contacts- the Porter Ports I use currently (and have used in previous installations are uncoated brass but) were made to special order and Albert has no more. I'm not sure what other folks are using as a good, neutral receptacle- you'll see all kinds of references to "hospital grade" but if you run a search of the threads here, you'll be able to see pretty quickly that people use receptacles in the same way they might choose cables or roll tubes--to create a certain sound that is simpatico with their objective. I never bothered with the high priced ones- not b/c I think they are voodoo, but never saw the need.

There are some parameters on distance which forum member @Jea48 might be able to chime in on. My main panel is a fair distance from the listening room, so the sub panel is fed by 4 gauge wire, through a very large iso transformer, which outputs via 4 gauge and terminates at the listening room sub panel. 

I also had the back up generator people wire my whole house generator in such a way that the hi-fi electrical is fed before any power is sent downstream to another box- which is where the Automatic Transfer Switch is located. The ATS has a 24 breaker panel in the same box, so only the appliances wired directly to the ATS box are energized by the generator. I did this partly because of Fremer's reports a few years ago that he could hear the negative effects of the ATS even when on grid power. Apparently, there were a lot of other issues with his home wiring that needed to be cleaned up. If you look at my posts here on the subject, I always recommend that an "audit" be done, starting at the meter, which can be pulled by the power company for inspection. (Other of my posts go into greater detail on the value of such an audit). You are supplying power to an audio system that shares load and ground with a whole bunch of noise making devices so the goal is to minimize the effect of those. The notion of a dedicated circuit may be misleading in this respect- it is essentially a "home run" line from the service panel or sub panel to the point of use with no other "shared" appliances on it. But that line is still part of your household electrical system and can be affected by it. 

Bill

Y’all need to run dedicated silver wire service from the substation to your distribution panel. Special silver circuit breakers. Enough circuit breakers for each component. And hard wire, with the silver audio wire, from each circuit breaker to each component. 
And buy a 6’ solid silver grounding round. Locate it outside near the service panel. Then run a nice silver grounding strap from the service panel to the grounding rod. 

Me I ran a couple 12 gauge lines from my distribution panel to some hospital grade connectors. Done.
Last week a fellow destroyed the electric pole which had an old transformer. So now there is a new transformer hanging on the pole next to my house. Made no difference. 

Tell him to put all 3 circuits on the same phase.  This avoids subwoofer ground loop hum.

Pretty much like the others mentioned, I did three 10awg Romex, 20 amp breakers, same phase, combo of PorterPorts and Oyaide R1 receptacles,  new grounding rod.. I use one line exclusively for amps and subs, never use power conditioner with these, another for rest of system, this has power conditioner, third line is mostly excess for me, although running one of my streamers off it at present.

All else aside, make sure it's all done to code.

Don't forget to use two 9' copper earth ground rods wired in series with #6 solid core ground wire to the panel ground landing. 

Interestingly, the rods need to be 9' earth covered but not necessarily driven vertically. what you want is grounding to damp soil. If you are lucky and have an iron well casing that is the ideal earth ground.

HI All, 

I'm going to throw this out there as I'm at baffled with this issue. I too just completed a new home build with a dedicated audio room. The power is fed via underground conduit to the panel. I ran 3 #10 circuits all on the same phase to the room, 1 for my tube mono block amps, 1 for my subs and 1 for the rest of the equipment. The big disappointment is a nasty 60 cycle hum. It's not just limited to that room it's in every outlet in the house! I had a master electrician here 3 times now to no avail. We installed a second earth ground rod on the panel which he claimed should fix it, it did nothing. I also have a Seimens whole house surge protector but have the breaker turned off for it as when it's on the the hum doubles in volume.

At the suggestion from another user I bought the little red Amazon plug in circuit tester. It's showing me I have 7 milliamps going  to ground, Google says this is quite bad. I turned off the all the breakers and that didn't change anything it's still 7ma. It's so bad that when I turn the whole house surge on you can hear the toaster buzz!

At this point I have all three systems (different rooms) plugged into Emotive DC noise units just to be able to use them. Solid state amps can't be used at all that's how bad the buzz is. With the Emotive the buzz is still there just quieter. I know this can't be good long term for the equipment and definitely not for my nerves!

Any suggestions on a next step?

Thanks,

K 

Get a different electrician. 
Start turning off one circuit breaker at a time. 
 

@skyy92677,

Maybe a cable TV line, a ground loop isolator might fix that! See here

Mike

Personally at the distance you almost should consider a new 60 Amp subpanel in your listening room and very short runs to the receptacles.  I haven’t done the math in a while but I did ages ago for a workshop.  The 4 gauge wiring required for the 60A subpanel will outperform 10 gauge at higher loads, plus this way your ground and neutrals join together much more closely and are unable to develop a higher potential like you could with long, separate runs. 

@skyy92677  

At the suggestion from another user I bought the little red Amazon plug in circuit tester. It’s showing me I have 7 milliamps going  to ground, Google says this is quite bad. I turned off the all the breakers and that didn’t change anything it’s still 7ma. It’s so bad that when I turn the whole house surge on you can hear the toaster buzz!

That might have been me, but you are misreading that 7mA!! That’s the GFCI test level.  That is, if you are testing a GFCI protected outlet, and you press the TEST button you can expect 7mA to flow.  That’s very little, but any more and you can stop a heart. 

The important part of that test is to look at the AC and the N-E voltage.

Having said this, if you have  this hum occuring no matter where the gear is you may have DC.  If it’s happening only in the listening room the advice to disconnect any other copper wires like coax and Ethernet is valid.  

@skyy92677 Hum always occurs at the powerline frequency 50 or 60 Hz, depending on your national standard. Ground hum is always the result of an imperfect ground causing a resistance, and thus a current to flow. Induced hum is also due to an imbalanced induction of AC onto an otherwise unconnected wire pair.

This is why balanced inputs tend to be quieter - noise induced on both lines is cancelled by the inverting input. This is known as CMRR - Common Mode Rejection Ratio. Common mode rejection ratio is the measure of a device’s ability to reject the signal common to both the positive and negative device inputs, specifically, a differential op-amp. Fun Fact: The differential op-amp was invented 20 years before the transistor for use as a long distance telephony signal repeater. The patent was rejected for 10 years because the patent clerk didn't get how they could work, but was finally granted in 1938. 

So, now you know what you're looking for - either a grounding issue or an induced hum possibly by a wire pair closely adjacent to an AC line. Adding more grounding points is likely to cause more hum not less, and is a code violation. Double grounding, or grounding at multiple points in a system, can be hazardous and lead to safety issues. It can create parallel current paths, potentially leading to electrical shock hazards, fire risks, and damage to equipment due to circulating ground currents. I agree: find yourself a new electrician.

Honestly y'all oughta leave electricity to electricians 🥱😴

@skyy92677

You probably have too many circuits on a neutral leg.  This most often happens when amateurs remodel, or modify their wiring. An electrician can identify and correct, probably will require pulling some new wire. Neutral is not a ground in your distribution that can be shared.

If I was going to spend the money, I would seek out Electricians that specialize in audiophile installations, or high end computer installations, Micheal Fremmer has a You Tube on his rewire...

@llg98ljk: "All else aside, make sure it's all done to code."

 

@devinplombier:" "Honestly y'all oughta leave electricity to electricians"

@puptent: "If I was going to spend the money, I would seek out Electricians that specialize in audiophile installations, or high end computer installations, Micheal Fremmer has a You Tube on his rewire...".

 

All of these are true in my experience. Code is a minimum, I prefer working with commercial electricians who will do residential work because of their experience and you can pull in somebody like Rex, who consulted on Fremer's problems when he installed a Generac. I also work with the local Code inspector who has jurisdiction in advance. I'm usually going beyond Code, but that generator wiring scheme was developed in combination with all of these folks. 

@skyy92677 said:

I too just completed a new home build with a dedicated audio room.

New house.

I had a master electrician here 3 times now to no avail. We installed a second earth ground rod on the panel which he claimed should fix it, it did nothing.

Was it your idea to add an additional ground rod to the two that are already there? Adding the additional ground rod wouldn’t have solved your problem. It may have given you a lower soil resistance for the grounding electrode  system for the Earth connection of the electrical service. The main purpose for the connection to Earth is for lightning protection.

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I also have a Siemens whole house surge protector but have the breaker turned off for it as when it’s on the the hum doubles in volume.

It’s so bad that when I turn the whole house surge on you can hear the toaster buzz!

What did the Master Electrician say about the two quotes above problem?

I can not visualize any way the Siemens Type 2 SPD could cause such an event as you have described. The electrical panel should be full of 120V single pole 15 and 20 amp AFCI, (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter), branch circuit outlet breakers.  An AFCI breaker has a built-in micro processor that senses a series or parallel arcing fault event.  I would think the Siemens SPD would drive the electronics in the AFCI breakers nuts, causing them to trip open on a false arc fault event. 

FWIW, my understanding, for one of the reasons for NEC requiring surge protection at the main electrical equipment panel, was to help protect the AFCI breaker’s internal electronics from high voltage transient surges. If you have the breaker turned off the electronics in the AFCI breakers are not protected.

You said the house was just recently built. I don’t know about your State but my State requires the builder to stand behind any defects, I believe for one year. I suggest you call the builder and tell him you have a serious electrical problem. Ask him if he will have the Electrical Contractor send out a troubleshooting  Service Electrician to look at and fix the problem. 

Before addressing the hum/buzzing issues with your audio system zero in on the Siemens SPD at the electrical panel and the toaster buzzing, (when being used), when the SPD  breaker is closed, (connecting the SPD to the electrical bus) of the panel. Then you can tell the electrician the problem with your audio system. 

Not that it should matter, I assume the toaster uses a 2 wire cord and plug. No safety equipment ground is used.

Just curious, does any of the Links provided below  sound like the buzzing sound you are hearing?

CAUTION, turn down the volume before listening to the examples. Especially the last example. 

This is a standard 60Hz ground loop hum. 

1) 60Hz hum

2) 60Hz audio buzz example

  Or maybe this.

3) 120Hz 

Or maybe this.

4) 120Hz buzz   (Make sure volume is turned down first)

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120Hz could indicate a high level of harmonic distortion on the AC mains. You said you tuned off all the breakers in the panel at one point. Including the Siemens SPD breaker. Only having one breaker on that fed your audio system. Doing so didn’t make any difference. Hum was still present. But not as loud when the Siemens SPD breaker was turned on. I still am shaking my head on that one. Makes no sense what so ever... That’s the first thing the Service Electrician will want you to show him. I would want to see and hear that first hand using the toaster. 

 

How about any neighbors that are fed from the same Utility Power Transformer as your house.  Any solar panels on the roof(s)?   

Are any of the neighbors experiencing electrical problems like you are having?

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To live a happy life, electricity has to be understood and treated with respect. Just like your wife.

 

EDIT to my above post.

For some reason #4 Web link no longer works

4) 120Hz buzz   (Make sure volume is turned down first)

Here is the Link. (Turn down your volume first.)

120 Hz Ground Hum SOUND

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I found a spool of 125 feet of 8-gauge on C/L so rewired the house with a dedicated 20 amp breaker just for the entertainment center.

The plug in the entertainment center is a locking 20/30 amp piece that feeds an industrial surge protector.  Outside of the entertainment center there are two high grade, 20 amp hospital plugs for my tube amp and any other aux equipment I may want to use/try. 

The line runs continuous, first to the 30 amp plug, then the hospital plugs with NO SPLICES anywhere.  There is also a big ferrite bead where the wire comes out of the electrical panel.

I noted a difference on my Yamaha SACD in that it cleaned up some of the "grunge" whereas I didn’t really notice a difference on my Oppo-95, which has a better power supply.

 

@digitaljoseph Wrote:

I have installed a new electrical panel and am going to run 3 dedicated circuits to my audio wall. (40 feet).  2 monoblocks and other components Would like recommendations as to specifications for the electrician as to wire size and type, grounding, receptacles , etc etc etc.   thanks

Dedicated audio lines I would go with Type MC Galvanized Steel Metal Clad Cable 10/2 with insulated ground. It has better EMI and EF shielding versus Non Metallic cable. Receptacles Hubbell see here. 

For what it’s worth category, I would run four dedicated branch circuits for audio only. One for each mono amp, one for analog and one for digital.

Mike

@ditusa Said:

Dedicated audio lines I would go with Type MC Galvanized Steel Metal Clad Cable 10/2 with insulated ground. It has better EMI and EF shielding versus Non Metallic cable

I agree on the use of MC (Metal Clad) armored cable. I’m just not a fan of the galvanized steel armored MC cable. I personally would use aluminum  armored  MC cable. 

From my listening experience, as well from that of other audiophiles, galvanized ferrous magnetic steel can add grain as well slightly restrict the openness, air, of the musical presentation.  

Page 12

Metal Clad (MC) is manufactured in both steel and aluminum with twisted conductors that help reduce AC magnetic fields. Although the steel jacket helps reduce AC magnetic fields, the twisting of conductors has the greatest effect on reducing these fields.

Another benefit is the constant symmetry of the phase conductors with respect to the grounding conductor which greatly reduces voltage induction on the grounding wire.

The highlighted text is of the greatest importance.

Though NM sheathed cable, (Romex), is good and widely used, I think 2 wire with insulated ground MC cable is better. (Solid copper wire.)

 

To all that may be reading this post, MC armored cable. NOT AC / BX armored cable. Make sure the Electrician buys and installs MC cable.

Example of MC cable: (For purposes of showing the three insulated conductors are twisted together. I am NOT recommending the manufacturer.)

2 conductor with insulated ground MC armored cable  

Note the photo shows solid copper conductors. Ad is for stranded. 

For audio branch circuit wiring solid copper conductors is recommended.

Southwire is a very good cable manufacturer

FYI, though Anti Short bushings are not required by NEC code for MC cable, I highly recommend you tell the electrician you want them installed anyway. If if he says you don’t need them. Tell him, you want them anyway. They are cheap and it will take the electrician about 15 seconds to install one. 

Example:

Pretty simple to install.

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*** AC / BX Armored Cable ***

Make 100% sure the electrician installs MC and not AC / BX armored cable. Big difference between the two.

Southwire Armorlite 125-ft 10 / 2 Solid Aluminum BX/AC Armored Cable

Look closely at the picture of the section of the cable. Note the two insulated copper Line conductors and the bare 16awg aluminum safety equipment grounding/bonding conductor.

 Southwire Website 

10/2 AWG THHN/THWN Insulated Singles Wrapped in moisture-Resistant, Flame-Retardant Paper. 16 AWG Aluminum Bond  Wire. UL Listed. 600 Volts. Rated VW-1. Lightweight Aluminum Interlocked Armor.

"An armor assembly (combination of the interlocked armor & bonding strip) that is recognized as an equipment grounding/bonding conductor per NEC 250.118(8)."

You don’t want this...

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My next project is to run a new circuit to my music room.  I have 12/2 now and am going to move the receptacle to a better location and change to 10/2.  I watched a video with Michael Fremer a few years ago and he said all his equipment was on one circuit and that was recommended.  I don't know what the right answer is nor if amps should go into the power conditioner or directly into the wall.  Suppose the only way to know if try and compare.  

Standard 20A circuits with 12/2 wiring.

Wow a lot of you guys are way out of control. Especially the multi ground rod people you’re only supposed to have one ground rod per meter. I keep hearing the song from the Talking Heads in the background about burning down the house

20amp wire and any of the highend outlets. Thay are all good.  I use Cardas. But allmof them are very good.

Especially the multi ground rod people you’re only supposed to have one ground rod per meter.

@raysmtb1 

Actually that’s not true. Code allows multiple supplementary rods as long as they’re connected to the main rod which is itself bonded to the panel. Rod-to-rod connections are prescribed by code.

What you cannot have is a ground rod that is not bonded to the panel. For instance, running a dedicated 20A circuit to one’s listening room, and that circuit’s ground is not returning to the panel; instead, it is connected to its own ground rod. That is expressly forbidden, not to mention it’s absolute sheer idiocy.

That Talking Heads song, 😂🤣

 

 

@dhite71, I would run the Audio Research REF 160M mono amps with each one on a dedicated 20 amp branch circuit and 10 AWG wire. With the amps plugged directly into the wall. 

 

Mike

@dhite71 said:

My next project is to run a new circuit to my music room.  I have 12/2 now and am going to move the receptacle to a better location and change to 10/2.  I watched a video with Michael Fremer a few years ago and he said all his equipment was on one circuit and that was recommended.  

That’s not what  Fremer has now. 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/dedicated-power-circuits

Read my post on 02-23-2023 at 04:06pm

I see five 120V branch circuits connected to circuit breakers installed on the same Leg, Line, in the Sub Panel. Read my comments I posted for Fremer’s sub panel.

(Note: The the wiring on the left side of the bottom of the panel. I’m not sure but I think there is a Type 2 SPD, (Surge Protection Device), mounted to the bottom of the panel.)  

 

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