I just got the Sony Signature dac/pre/headphone amp for around $2K the, TA-Z1HES and highly recommend it. It has features that are proprietary to Sony and you can use a streamer of your choice as a transport. I have tried a Sony SACD/CD/blueray player as a transport, a bluesound node and an Onkyo DAP as a streamer. I would not spend much on a streamer which you will be essentially using as a transport, I would budget more for the dac and get that first. This review of the Sony will give you a good idea of the features and SQ:
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I’d go for a new streamer, like the N200, it’s an excellent choice,
but if you decide to go up the Denifrips ladder, I might be interested in the Venus ll.
😁
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@fthompson251
I would definitely buy Aurender N200 first, ahead of your Venus II and later step up to Terminator II when funds permits. You’ve already optimized ethernet by way of ENO in your system so that’s one less thing you need to worry :-)
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Streamer first, whichever one does what you want and makes you happy. .Just remember that you give up any chance of Roon with Aurender.
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I am retired as well. The value in my audio system has increased so much because I have time to listen to it each day.
I think if I were you I would upgrade your streamer. Each will make a difference but I think it very likely your streamer will make a much larger impact. The N200 would be a great choice. I own two Aurender streamers after owning a Aurlic Aries G2 and cannot praise them too much. The source is really important… Aurender are great sounding streamers.
DACs are important as well… but yours is pretty good. So I would make this your second upgrade.
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just a suggestion:
SGC Sonic Transport
ROON
Optical Rendu into the Hermes
SGC
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I recently got an Aurender N200. It’s an awesome machine. I’m using it with a LAB 12 DAC 1 Reference and it is a great sounding combo. Has none of the nasties often associated with digital playback.
I bought the DAC after a short demo. It sounded great on the store and even better in my rig.
I bought the Aurender sight unseen. I traded a piece of gear toward it and it was a transaction that was easy on the wallet. My piece plus $850. It was a no brainer since I stream so much.
Build quality of Aurender products is off the chart. They are well built and the suppprt is excellent.
I bought the LAB 12 with the option to trade up within a year but it sounds so good I’m not sure I want to spend double. Not right now anyway
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@fthompson251
Could you clarify ? Do you need a full function “music server “ or a streamer “network player” ? Obviously the Aurender N200 is the former. If all you need is a network player consider the new Pluse series of network players from Innuos. There are 3 different models/price points.Excellent streaming capability for less money than the music servers.
Charles
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@charles1dad
I don’t intend to use Roon. I may in the future want to rip CD’s to a SS drive I can add one to the N200. From what I understand it (N200) has great SQ. How would the Innuos better it? In what way? More bang for the buck in that is will sound the same as the N200 for less money? I use Qobuz primarily, what’s the difference between these Pluse units and the Aurender? Don’t the Aurenders cache the stream into RAM and then play it back? Thank you for your feedback. I will take a look at them. I should add that I am seeking my end game streamer. (As funny as that may seem in this crazy rabbit hole hobby)
I am honestly surprised by the feedback as I expected the DAC to be the priority, and get the best DAC you can afford in an all digital playback system first. That would be the Terminator for me as I like the "house sound" I have so far.
Interesting bit of information that may or may not cause a stir. I today concluded that the CXN may be my bottle neck because when I tried different Power cords in it I really didn’t hear much change. However when I added the newer power cord to my DAC it was immediate that it improved, the same result when I added the same one to my CD transport although the DAc was affected more. (The power cord that is new to the system is the Wireworld Silver Electra 7 of which I now have two) My perspective on this is that the streamer isn’t of high enough resolution to to distinguish this or that PC’s make little impact on it. It is currently powered by a Shunyata Black mamba from years gone by. I have 4 of them, but have retired 2 of them to my LHY network switch and my LHY linear power supply. I have a Synergistic Reference Master Coupler due in Friday to try on my Preamp to see how it compares to the Shunyata. @ghdprentice YES, being retired offers many hours of music listening during the cold days of winter and fussing with the sound of the system. You are one that through your feed back on many threads have helped convince me to look into Aurender, since streamers are all they do. Secondly when I see sophisticated systems featured online the Aurender units are featured rather frequently.
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There is a lot more to be gained in a DAC. Until you have a flagship dac of your dreams, you can get by on a $300 streamer.
In other words the differnce between a $1000 and a $10000 dac is huge but the differnce between a $300 and a $5000 streamer is much less.
Jerry
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@fthompson251
I'm surprised so many people like a bundled streaming solution too. You can get an iStream or a Bluesound Node to be used simply as a transport for less than $500. You can even use a mac or a PC as a transport. Then you can use the rest of your budget on the best dac with the features you really want. There are so many outstanding values on dacs and there are more choices at different price points.
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There is a lot more to be gained in a DAC. Until you have a flagship dac of your dreams, you can get by on a $300 streamer.
In other words the differnce between a $1000 and a $10000 dac is huge but the differnce between a $300 and a $5000 streamer is much less.
Jerry
I understand everyone has their own opinions and perspectives. I have to say that I patently disagree with this take. The quality of the digital source is very crucial to the overall sound quality of a digital front end. Yes, without question the DAC is an important component but it does not over ride the source component either.
A mediocre source will impede a good DAC. The “bits is bits” attitude is trite and superficial. A better quality streamer/music server will clearly make its contribution very apparent. In the OP’s scenario I recommend upgrading the streamer source first. I believe that the current DAC is of higher quality than the current streamer/server in use.
Charles
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@kota1 My streamer I have is better than a Node already. I am not sure you are following what level I am at already. My current DAC is no joke, it's really good.
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@kota1
The OP is aiming at his end game digital front end. Your suggestions so far suggests an entry level streamer options which is clearly opposite OP’s goal.
+1, @charles1dad “A mediocre source will impede a good DAC”.
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Trying to put myself in you shoes: if I had said that I thought my streamer was the bottleneck, and I had purchased a DAC prior to the streamer - I would probably be wondering about how much of a bottleneck my Cambridge is while listening to my new Terminator. Curious if that bottleneck would become even more pronounced with a better DAC?
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@fthompson251 , thanks, I was simply illustrating a point that the backend is a better value IMO than the front end. Streaming is what it is, convenient, but on a high resolution system it generally won’t deliver what you can get from ripped files. I would rather spend the majority of my budget on the dac. In my system I use my Onkyo DP-X1 DAP via USB to stream. It can convert ripped files to DSD/DOP then pass it off to the Sony where it "remasters" it in DSD. When you get used to DSD quality from ripped files the streamed versions lose a step if you know what I mean.
This is from TAS:
Sony’s new “DSD Remastering Engine,” which according to Sony “combines a high-performance DSP (digital signal processing) and FPGA (field-programmable gate array) to convert any signal (my emphasis) into DSD128 signals. It was designed based on the know-how garnered from Sony’s 8-times oversampling and Extended SBM (Super Bit Mapping) technology for professional recorders.” Yes, you read that right: the remastering engine can convert any and all PCM music files into DSD128 format, regardless of their original sample-or bit-rate.
@toro3 , on a highly resolving system the "bottleneck" starts with the network. Any noise on the network is passed downstream to the streamer and the DAC.
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Recently I attended a Linn presentation of their newest DAC/Streamer
$45K? not sure. As they outlined all the new improvements I asked
which part improves the SQ most? Immediate reply-the DAC.
For your situation Aurender is good but pricey. The Innuos
Zen 3 I have Streams/Rips and stores. I paid $2,200 new and I think
they up about $1k today. Love the thing.
You should still be about $2k ahead if you go with Innuos
and that gets your new Terminator as well.
Yeah you owe me now fella!!
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@fthompson251 I am an Aurender dealer, but audiophile first, so take this with a grain of salt. I used to own a Modwright-modded CXN V2, the one with a tube stage, in a second system. While the upgraded DAC section was quite good, the streamer was quite lackluster. I once put it into my primary system a few years back, where I had a NAD M50.2 dedicated server/streamer going into the the CXN. The NAD did a good job of cleaning up the sound. I've since become an Aurender dealer and moved away from the NAD. In September, I had a customer come by with his Modwright CXN V2, and he asked me to connect an Aurender N200 into it. I did so, and the difference was outstanding - much higher than the older M50.2 I had hooked up a year or so prior. It only took about 10-20 seconds of listening for the customer to tell me he was sold on the N200.
I was in a similar dilemma as you when I had the NAD M50.2 hooked up to a PS Audio DirectStream DAC. Both were good components, but I was missing something, so I went on a DAC hunt. I moved through a number of DACs, including a Lampizator Baltic 3 with over $1K of tubes, but ended up returning it. When I decided down the other path and added an Aurender to the chain, it made a much bigger difference than continuing to upgrade my DAC.
The CXN is absolutely the weak link of the two. Feel free to contact me directly if you'd like to talk about the N200 or any other products Aurender has to offer.
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@blisshifi
I was in a similar dilemma as you when I had the NAD M50.2 hooked up to a PS Audio DirectStream DAC. Both were good components, but I was missing something, so I went on a DAC hunt. I moved through a number of DACs, including a Lampizator Baltic 3 with over $1K of tubes, but ended up returning it. When I decided down the other path and added an Aurender to the chain, it made a much bigger difference than continuing to upgrade
A clear example of a lower quality streamer mitigating the performance of a good quality DAC. This is why placing over emphasis on the DAC and relegating the streamer/source component to 2nd class status is a bad idea. A compelling case could be presented that in a good/high resolving audio system the source and DAC have equal sonic influence. Lower resolution systems will very likely obscure the impact.
Charles
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“Curious if that bottleneck would become even more pronounced with a better DAC? ”
@toro3
A better DAC will be more revealing of any shortcomings of components (source) upstream. Since OP owns a very good DAC and already optimized the Ethernet connection by adding ENO, the next logical step to take is; upgrade the streamer.
@jeffseight
No doubt Innuos is good but another most important thing to consider when choosing a streamer is the control app you will be using to manage your music library and browsing music from cloud based streaming services. The Aurender’s conductor app is by far the best app in terms of simplicity, robustness and SQ. This is a critical part of the experience with streamers and usually the difference maker once you get past the hardware implementation. Yes, you pay a bit more upfront with Aurender but you’re getting a lot more in return. The outstanding build quality, excellent customer support and an app interface that’s easy to navigate without impacting the sound quality unlike ROON which we all know, not the best sounding software.
PS: Have you compared ROON with Sense App, what do you think?
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Latik,
I tried Innuos Sense briefly when first out and I had issues with functionality
so I went back to Roon where my libraries reside.
I have heard respected makers state the reason they do not incorporate
Roon is the SQ degradation they found. What they do not say is how they
must expose everything and change formats to accommodate Roon.
And likely pay Roon something. So it is not an exciting prospect to some.
Recently I heard Linn folks say they worked out "an accomodation" with
Roon that they could live with hence are now Roon Ready.
So there is a question of bias by makers and using SQ as their defense.
Is there any result of blind testing of Sense vs Roon ? Love to hear it.
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I believe both Innuos and Aurender are well-established high-quality products. Aurender is a complete music server component. Innuos "ZEN" series are complete music servers. Innuos "Pulse" series are streamer/network players. If one does not need or want full music server then a network player is fine and generally speaking less expensive. Both companies have their happy and loyal supporters.
Charles
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“Is there any result of blind testing of Sense vs Roon ? Love to hear it.”
@jeffseight
I don’t believe in blind tests. Fortunately, my system is resolving enough to collaborate differences between hardwares/ softwares and how well they are executed with my hearing. I am a lifetime ROON subscriber and longtime Conductor user. On surface, ROON is good and its SQ greatly varies on hardware implementation. In contrast, Conductor app remained consistent in terms of SQ due to its robust tightly controlled in-house integration with the equally complimentary hardware.
Once you get to experience Sense glitch free, you will relate to what I’m trying to convey. Whether you can hear or appreciate the differences between ROON or Sense will entirely contingent upon your listening environment, system and your hearing.
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I believe it all starts at the top of the chain. I think spending money on a great preamp is one of the best moves you can make. I think the source is equally important.
I bought the N200 knowing it won’t be the potential bottleneck if I upgrade my DAC.
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More impact with a-quality dac for sure everything starts with the dac good or bad .
I own desfrid gear and heard them all, dont overlook the Excellent
T&A dac 200 for $6900 a great piece of technology with HQ player built into the design when used with Roon which was built into Roons programming .
a great addition .
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I’ve learned not to underestimate the value of a really good streamer. I started with a Node 2i then worked my way up to an Aurender n100sc and now a Aurender n10. Each jump was an significant improvement over the last. Not to mention that Aurender is a fantastic manufacturer.
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This year I upgraded my entire system. The source used to be the same Cambridge as yours, and is now Innuos. As I've also bought new speakers, amp and DAC, plus cabling, it's impossible for me to accurately state where the improvements begin and end. Needless to say though that the SQ is 100x better.
My point is that everything between the ethernet port of your router/switch and the input of your DAC matters a hell of a lot. To state it's only 1s and 0s is to frame it in too binary a statement. You need to understand the digital signal is actually an analogue representation of a digital signal, along with noise and jitter issues.
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When I started done this path I was also thinking of the solution as streamer and DAC. As I learned more I added in a separate music server (hardware). I think it is important if you have a large music library (> 2TB+) and use Roon. In the end I moved from a Mac book PS Audio direct stream DAC w/ bridge (streamer) to a Small Green Computer i5 w/ 4TB SSD (music server), Bricasti M3 (DAC), w/ network card (streamer). Integration with my library and Qobuz is seamless, system response time is near realtime and most important sound quality is great at least with my setup in my room. Any streaming issues experienced before went away(ie - interruptions, search delays, etc. Bottom line don't underestimate the value of a physical music server if using Roon.
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When I started done this path I was also thinking of the solution as streamer and DAC. As I learned more I added in a separate music server (hardware). I think it is important if you have a large music library (> 2TB+) and use Roon. In the end I moved from a Mac book PS Audio direct stream DAC w/ bridge (streamer) to a Small Green Computer i5 w/ 4TB SSD (music server), Bricasti M3 (DAC), w/ network card (streamer). Integration with my library and Qobuz is seamless, system response time is near realtime and most important sound quality is great at least with my setup in my room. Any streaming issues experienced before went away(ie - interruptions, search delays, etc. Bottom line don't underestimate the value of a physical music server if using Roon.
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@lollipopguild
My point is that everything between the ethernet port of your router/switch and the input of your DAC matters a hell of a lot. To state it's only 1s and 0s is to frame it in too binary a statement. You need to understand the digital signal is actually an analogue representation of a digital signal, along with noise and jitter issues.
Well stated .
You own the Zenith music server and I’m contemplating buying an Innuos Pulse network player. What is your opinion of Innuos “Sense “ sound quality and user interface compared with the Roon alternative? I’m just seeking online streaming usage (Internet radio/Tidal/Qobuz). I’d appreciate any feedback.
Charles
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Hi @charles1dad
Good questions. I bought the Zenith Mk3 a few months ago, but effectively don't use the internal hard drive. 99% of my listening is new stuff, so I stream Qobuz. It's also the case that many of my CDs have since been remastered and rereleased to Qobuz, so sound better streamed than ripped. So, if I had to buy again now the Pulse series would be my preference.
I also added a 2nd hand PhoenixUSB (with great success), so I would look seriously at the Pulsar, which reportedly bundles a USB reclocker. You'll need a good USB cable though.
I recently trialled Roon. Basically, Sense 2.x sounds better than Roon - many would agree with this. The only thing I miss about Roon is their rich DSP feature. We all need a form of tone control occasionally.
Interestingly, one of the biggest gains I made was only a couple of weeks ago. I replaced my 25 year-old entry-level mains conditioner with an Isotek Gemini to feed my Innuos boxes. Was only £300, but brought about huge gains. Innuos put huge emphasis on the quality of their internal PSUs, but it seems to me that they're still very sensitive to mains noise. A decent-ish shielded mains cable will also help. Belden 83803 is very affordable.
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@lollipopguild
Thanks for your reply. I like things that are straightforward and simple. Does this apply to the Innuos Sense app/OS or is there a considerable learning curve involved? They do seem to seriously address power supply quality and that’s important to me. I use a very high quality AC balanced isolation transformer that has served my audio system well.
Charles
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@charles1dad . Roon is more fully featured, but Sense is simpler and more than enough for me. At least Sense is free, and enabling the Roon trial is also easy. Give it a few months for it all to settle before trying it though.
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@lollipopguild
Roon is more fully featured, but Sense is simpler and more than enough for me. At least Sense is free, and enabling the Roon trial is also easy. Give it a few months for it all to settle before trying it though.
Thanks, I’m not in a hurry and will sort this out.
Charles
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@fthompson251
Just to be clear I haven't heard the Innuos or the Aurender yet but they're on the radar. I have been receiving from a few folks feedback that's been quite favorable toward Aurender units. I need to explore more.
Charles
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@charles1dad
I own the Innuos Zenith 3 and can tell you that Sense sounds far better than Roon on an Innuos player. Roon sounds flat and dull compared to Sense. Sense is more open sounding with better inner detail retrieval and improved realism. Roon’s bass is thicker and has less articulation compared to Sense.
The Sense program is miles ahead of where it was when it was first introduced. I must say Roon is a slightly better interface in terms of available artist info, lyrics, navigation and such. It just is. Roon radio is a very nice feature not offered in Sense. It plays artists similar to the ones you know and love and is a great way to learn of artists you may come to really enjoy. As much as I like the Roon interface I simply can no longer listen to it after hearing Sense! This coming from a Roon lifetime member 😬
I highly recommend getting the Network Acoustics Muon filter package with your streamer. It really improves the streaming experience by improving the realism and your connection to the music. It peels away noise that disrupts engagement. Wonderful piece with a trial period.
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I have found that the better the dac the MORE important the server/streamer and other network tweaks become. You need a great server/streamer to hear all your dac has to offer. Upgrades like ethernet filters, ethernet cables, and linear power supplies on your modem/router and switch become more important with a better dac. That’s if you want to hear all your new and more expensive dac can deliver.
A less resolving dac with lower fidelity will not benefit as much from a high quality streamer/server and the various network upgrades.
Also, our playback systems are comprised of more than digital front ends so our amplification and speakers must also be up to the task. Oh my it never ends!
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@grannyring
Hi Bill, I appreciate your insight and observations very much. I getting my feet wet with regard to audio streaming. Plenty for me to learn and process. I’m determined to get it right with this venture. My new DAC will be shipped from the Ukraine very soon as construction is completed.
I have a splendid CD transport waiting for its arrival. I’d like to also pair it with a high quality streamer/server. So I’ll take my time.😊
Charles
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If it were me, I’d live with what I have until I saved up enough to upgrade both the streamer and the DAC at the same time.
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Streamer. Sonore has great products. Another route: the new Wiim Pro plus the fiber with FMCs and LPS. Inexpensive, great software and great sound.
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“I have found that the better the dac the MORE important the server/streamer and other network tweaks become. You need a great server/streamer to hear all your dac has to offer. Upgrades like ethernet filters, ethernet cables, and linear power supplies on your modem/router and switch become more important with a better dac. That’s if you want to hear all your new and more expensive dac can deliver.”
+1, @grannyring …everything matters!
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Charles, I am eager to hear your comments on the new dac!
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Charles, I am eager to hear your comments on the new dac
Bill I hope to have it within the next couple of weeks. It’s shipping from Ukraine so hopefully no custom snags.
Charles
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@charles1dad
It appears, 2023 is going to be much more merrier with revamped digital front end :-)
Happy Holidays 🎄
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@lalitk
Thanks and Happy holidays to you and your family. I’m looking forward to what this different DAC design brings to the table.I’ve had my current DAC for over 12 years and still enjoy it very much.
Charles
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I agree with others that streamer is most important, but then with upgraded streamer the dac or network will become weak link, and around and around it goes.
In the end so many choices, I can't say with large measure of assurance what is best for any other individual. As for myself I can't live without Roon, the interface is just so seamless, and such great utility with multiple configurations in my unique streaming setup. One can also mix and match equipment from various manufacturers, result is sound quality will be extremely variable dependent on entire streaming chain. I don't believe ultimate sound quality with Roon is an issue, I prefer it thus far to the Stylus proprietary music player I have, a player that has a great many positive reviews. One can also use the embedded HQPlayer within Roon for an amazing journey into dsp!. One can over and up sample PCM and DSD, convolution filters aplenty, ability to add individual equalization. Finally, I believe I'm hearing a qualitative difference with the network adapter chosen for a two machine streaming setup,NAA, SqueezeLite, and RoonReady the three I've experimented with.
Adding up the versatility, utility and sound quality I'm getting from Roon makes it an absolute necessity for my streaming. I will say this level of versatility and sound quality requires a fair amount of fiddling and streamer with relatively high power processor, think Intel I7 minimum for HQPlayer. An OS optimized for Roon also required for optimal sound quality, OS optimized for the proprietary players mentioned above probably plays large role in their reported sound quality edge.
Bottom line is I don't believe Roon is inherently inferior music player. I doubt Taiko would be using Roon in their Extreme streamers if they thought it had some inherent sonic liabilities.
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Roon is inferior sound quality wise on Innuos gear and certainly not in general. I am sure Roon sounds wonderful on other server/streamers. Innuos processing power is purposefully designed to be lower so as to minimize noise. That is one reason they sound so organic and natural. If one owns an Innuos server they have not really heard what it is capable of until they run Sense. Roon certainly sounds good on my Innuos, but falls pretty short sonically to Sense.
One must know their goals and desires with streaming when deciding on a server/streamer. I don’t care about DSD or DSP and really like the linear power supplies and lower processing power design goals of Innuos. This keeps noise to a minimum. I have heard more detailed servers than my Zenith 3, but it’s hard to beat the natural tone and musicality on my Innuos for the money.
I still run Roon for background music only as I use Roon radio to learn about new artists.
If one wants to use DSP heavily and cannot do without some of Roon’s features, then Innuos would perhaps not be the best choice
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