of course I know, there's always an option. never try never know. enjoy music.
New DAC or New Streamer?
This should be fun. After I pay to get my amp upgraded at VAC next month I plan to either upgrade my DAC or Streamer next. I should have enough for that by late spring/early summer. I'm retired so I save some each month until I have what I need. My system is in my user profile. But to keep this simple my current DAC is the Dinafrips Venus II I got a year ago. (I also have the Hermes DDC)
My streamer is the Cambridge CXN V2 via coax to the Hermes-> I2s -> DAC which is also 1 year old. I was just getting into streaming then and knew little about it. I have learned a lot this past year, a whole lot.
I think the bottle neck is leaning more toward the streamer. It seems the DAC is pretty good, I know there are much better DAC's out there but it holds it own I think. Maybe not? I cannot afford the likes of DCS, Lampizator, etc.
The next planned upgrades are a Terminator II DAC and Aurender N200 Streamer. Both are $5000-$6000. (Unless I go for the Terminator + DAC that is $7500 but I am not sure it is $2500 better than the Terminator II)
So, since both will get upgraded a year apart, which should I go for first? Which would provide the biggest upgrade?
Thanks. Happy holidays to all.
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I just had to make this choice but was a level behind you. I had the Bluesound Node 2i and the Denafrips Ares II. I knew I wanted to upgrade both. I assumed the streamer would be the best choice because the DAC was amazing so very pleased and want more Denafrips in the future. It also came down to getting a super deal on a DEMO unit one generation back. I bought an Auralic Aries G1. The G1.1s are about $3,500, I got mine for $2,200 free shipping and full warranty. I chose Auralic because it would stream the big three natively: Amazon, Qobuz, and Tidal and the reviews of the App were great the other big two streamers Lumin and Aurrender do not stream Amazon and I hear of App issues. Going one generation back was not an issue. One major change was only cosmetic and the other had to do with playing Apple music. Now I have done the AMP, Speakers, DAC, and Streamer. One more time on the DAC. Let me know if you want to part with the Venus. |
@lalitk @charles1dad Thank you. It is going to be a while before I acquire the new unit as I am away from home and the listening room until early April. I will not abandon this thread, I will get back to it after I get into the system and give it a listen. |
Hi and congratulations! Please let us know your listening impressions. Charles |
Mr Thompson you can start with a 432evo standard 3500 and you can upgrade to a higher end model easily as the servers are modular you pay the difference in price plus 25% to cover labor plus shipping costs
you can upgrade all the way to a master even from our starter servers so yes you can afford an EVO
Dave and Troy Audio Intellect nj us importers 432evo |
@charles1dad,You are welcome, and the Aeon is the real deal. I have heard some good servers, and it is one of the best. The next comparison I am very interested in is one between the Aeon and Master versions, and then, Master vs. Taiko. What I also like about the 432 Evo units is that they use external PSUs; the SBooster is a good PSU, but there are high-end linear power supplies that can cost as much as the Aeon itself, so I assume that 432 Evo units’ performance can be taken even further by upgrading from the dual SBoosters. I also expect the Master to obliterate the N20 given that half its cost is the PSU. Alexey |
@thyname , 😂 , you seem to know both of them well! |
@fthompson251, I think that upgrading the streamer is a great long-term investment that will pay off immediately and form a solid foundation for whatever DAC you use now or move to in the future. It took me a while to realize the importance of a high quality streamer, but now I view it as important as the DAC, amplifier, or speakers. I’d had a few Auralic Aries models (Dual Femto, G1, G2, G2.1) and was very happy with my G2.1 until at some point I visited a friend who had a Taiko Extreme. When we went from the Taiko to the G2.1, the Taiko made the G2.1 sound not just bad—broken! It sounded very digital, strained, processed, unnatural, edgy and grainy, in comparison. It was not a subtle difference in any way. The G2.1 was sold immediately and replaced with an Aurender N20. When I first plugged the N20 in place of the G2.1, my jaw was on the floor. The sound quality improvement was on par of upgrading the DAC to a model costing several times more. I have to admit that my Auralics all sounded pretty much the same to me, but G2.1 vs N20 was night and day, as were G2.1 vs Taiko. The N20 sounded so effortless and analog that I could not tear myself away from the music. There was no glare or edginess that I could pick up on, and there was no loss of detail. I listened for hours without skipping a single track on my playlist. It all just sounded like music, and not a digital representation. I was totally blown away, and now a firm believer in the importance of streaming. Fast forward to December, I had the pleasure of meeting Dave/@audiotroy and doing the Aurender shootout he mentioned above. We put a 432 Evo Aeon Mk 2 (which was not even the latest version—the latest is is the Mk 3) against my Aurender N20 in the same setup. Despite the Aeon’s much lower price point ($7,800 vs $12,000,) and to my surprise, I heard what Dave heard—the Aeon came out ahead. It did not make the N20 sound broken—it held its own—but it did make it sound flat and lifeless in comparison. The soundstage on the Aeon, the spatial cues, and the dimensionality were dramatically better. The only thing I think the N20 did a bit better in was the slightly deeper and tighter bass. Overall, however, going from the N20 to the Aeon felt like an upgrade; going the other way felt like a downgrade. I did not miss the slight loss in low end extension when listening to the Aeon. With the N20, however, I did miss the Aeon’s soundstage and imaging. I am not affiliated with Dave's company, do not get anything from posting this, and am only sharing what is my honest impression of the Aeon. The only reason why I have not sold the N20 is because I also want to hear the Master version of the Evo; once I do, the N20 will be for sale. Hope this helps! |
@audiotroy What model EVO and in what way was it better than the Aurender? The only one I could afford would be the EVO High End model. |
Yesterday I was comparing the Sonore OpticalRendu streamer with the streamer inside the Lumin X1 DAC. I was using fibre on both, and the fibre came out of my Ubiquiti Network switch or on the second test, an EtherRegen B > A. The sound was relatively the same, except that the X1 was bit louder. After adjusting for volume, I preferred the OpticalRendu by just a bit because I thought the sound was a bit more refined. Overall, the X1 is a killer package. I wish I had 2 of them for simplicity and great sound. Both are excellent streamers, the Optical Rendu is relatively cheap, and I think can compete with most streaming competitors. I have fibre optic streaming using ROON to 3 rooms in the house and 4 DACs, using 3 OpticalRendu’s and 1 Lumin X1. These are all talking to a ROON Core running on a tiny cheap PC hidden behind a door in an office. The streams are all excellent. Fibre is the key to this setup. ********************* As a side note on the Lumin X1 connected direct to amp and using the LEEDH volume control and external Lumin remote control. I am testing this out now to see if I can forgo a preamp. The key for me for a DAC driving an amp is how does it sound at low volume. The LEEDH is the best sounding DAC direct to amp I have heard though the Benchmark LA4 preamp connected to the X1 seems a bit better. However, I will use the X1 connected directly to the amp because it is excellent, not the best I have, but excellent, nevertheless. It has a built-in streamer that is almost my best, and the DAC is my fav, over a Musetec 005 and Benchmark DAC3B. I have now eliminated quite a few boxes by going with the X1 for my Livingroom system.
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So late to this…I’m a budget guy so buying a $6,300 Aurender N200 is out of the question, and will continue to plug a DAC directly into my MacBook Pro (which was a gift). With the $$, my path leads me instead to upgrade to a Mytek Liberty ii (replacing an IFI Zen DAC 1) and add 2 REL S510 subs. My hope is these other purchases will provide better bang/buck. |
Thank you very much for your input and recommendations. Yes, I’m going to get the new DAC into my system and develop a degree of familiarity. Once achieved I’ll tackle the server /streamer component. More than likely I will just get a high quality LAN cable initially. I’m looking forward to this new listening venture. Charles |
I know you are in information gathering phase and probably won’t pull the trigger on a streamer until your DAC arrives. While you await, I wanted to reiterate the importance of LAN cables. My experience with fiber optics kit was not great, as they tend to rob the dynamics and make the sound thin and lifeless; they do however effective in lowering the noise. That’s why I remained focused on lowering the noise by way of employing a high quality Ethernet switch / filter and use the best possible LAN cables. I have tinkered with wide variety of LAN cables over the years and found hybrid LAN cables with high purity silver and copper renders well balanced sound. Knowing your discerning taste in music and gear, I would start off with LAN cable that uses PC-OCC copper and silver, like Audio Sensibility Signature LAN. Reasonably priced under $300. I am thinking of ordering a pair as well for my upcoming experiment with SOtM switch and filters. There are other favorites like Network Acoustics, Sablon, JCAT and SOtM (for crazy money). Supra CAT 8 is a good starter cable but you will end up walking away this once you hear cables from aforementioned brands. |
@charles1dad : for a few hundred dollars (which is nothing in the grand scheme of things, what we spend on audio components alone) you can hire someone to install Ethernet everywhere in the house, every single room, every floor. Try common household service apps, like Thumbtack or Home Advisor. It will be of great benefit, and not just for audio. Then, for your audio room, pick a switch of your choice, fiber, etc etc |
@lalitk , Thanks, I’ve been advised that modem directly connected to streamer unit could introduce noise issue, quality mesh is potentially a better alternative. Learning the ends and outs of audio streaming. Charles |
Thanks, I have a two-story home and also a finished basement where my audio system resides. My cable modem is currently in a first floor library. I was going to use a mesh router in my listening room with close proximity to the streamer connected by a LAN cable. I hadn’t thought about modem in listening room LAN connection to the streamer. It seems that either would work fine. Mesh router near streamer appealed to me. Charles |
My cable modem is from Xifinity (formerly Comcast). Since my modem is about 30’ away from my dedicated room, I use a pair of Apple Extreme routers in a mesh network configuration to feed my Telegartner M12 Switch Gold. If you would like to see my network configuration, please visit my ’Digital’ system page and click on Picture # 22. You can avoid mesh network if you place your cable modem in the same room as your audio system. This would mean, running a short LAN cable from modem to your choice of streamer. I am going to be soon comparing another network switch in my system. It will be interesting to see how this switch compares to my existing switch. |
@lalitk It does appear your local library is neatly organized. Perhaps my issue is cd rips are on NAS, and Euphony OS/Stylus imports files from NAS differently than drives within streamer or usb drive, maybe a direct connection vs. going through network may help the situation. Stylus does fine with my Qobuz, Tidal libraries, play lists. Just don't get it, Roon imports NAS files just fine. In any case, this issue means I have to continue to use Roon for the NAS music. I'll have to do some experimentation, try the usb drive I use for NAS music library backups direct connection to streamer. |
Smart thinking on holding off to Roon lifetime subscription. Is there a reason why you’re not using Sense App? I subscribed to Roon lifetime membership 2 years ago, barely used it due to inconsistencies with SQ. No issues with Conductor app managing my library. The playback is seamless streaming from my library or Qobuz/Tidal. If you wanna see how everything neatly curated, take a peak at my ‘Digital’ system - Pic 19 & 20. |
My long term thoughts are I'll keep Roon even if I find my proprietary music player to have superior sound quality at some point. Roon SQ good enough to be totally engaging and even more important, the great interface has turned me on to so much great music and artists new to me. Qobuz and Tidal also offer this, but Roon far superior, Roon radio is simply awesome with it's analytics, graphics suggestions same awesomeness. Finally, I don't know how well the other proprietary players organize local libraries, but my Stylus players completely destroys organization of local library on NAS, makes library unusable. Perhaps it would do better with streamer internal drives?
Bottom line for me is Roon cost so little it would always provide more than commensurate benefit. Being able to transfer it to nearly any brand or custom build streamer is another added benefit. |
@soix Yes I’ve read lots of great reviews of Townshend for sure, although people complain of the price. I did read a few odd accounts where folks said they didn’t like the “tonal tuning” of Townshends, but that was just a few and every system and individual is different. Same deal with Herbie’s; lots of accounts of people relaying their OMG moments. If anything like my experience you will get to experience that with your speakers. Most likely with the Townshends too. But as I mentioned Herbie’s has the advantage of being able to position the feet anywhere under each device, which unbelievably makes a big difference. Took a good deal of experimenting before I arrived at the best footer positions for my ears. With Townshends you are stuck with only one position. That said, chances are you will be happy. Just listen carefully after adding to each component, and don’t do what I did with my amp. I assumed Herbie’s would have the same positive impact as it did on the rest of my gear, and for months I wasn’t happy with my sound not realizing what the issue was! Oh, I also added 4 Herbie’s Giant Fat Dots under my wooden shelf and this produced a noticeable bump in performance as well. Lastly @soix when you seat your speaker spikes into the Herbie’s gliders (assuming you are getting the spike decouplers) don’t make the same mistake I made. One of my 180 pound B&W 802’s wasn’t quite seated in the divot. Speaker went toppling over just with the slightest unevenness! Miraculously I had multiple camping foam mats stacked right where it crashed (was using them to help adjust spikes while speakers were on their sides) and no harm was done. Other than waking up the family with my shouting/screaming….
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@lalitk thank you for the insight really appreciate it. |
Learned a lot here as I’m still in relative diapers when it comes to streaming, but even at this relatively early stage it’s so clear how much everything matters, and matters ALOT. Those who choose to say this or that component is more important are just kidding themselves. As with most things in audio, my experience is ultimately the chain is only as strong as the weakest link, so to think the DAC is most important is just silly to me because everything before and after it matters. What really amazed me was how much better my streaming sound got when I upgraded to a better streamer.
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Among the few I’ve auditioned, my recommendation would be to try Network Acoustics ENO or MUON (for higher performance). The market is flooded with noise filtering devices but ENO and MUON passive filters does more than addressing the noise, they excel at enhancing your musical engagement. I used ENO first with Aurender N10, and later with N20; both of these streamers benefited from ENO + ENO Ag LAN cables. |
Latik so correct on network optimization! I'd trust the knowledgeable steamers in their recommendation of Acoustic Network Muon for top grade filter. My own situation is different as my streamer uses Windows based motherboard, so JCAT Net XE serves as my ethernet optimizer/filter, sure it contributes to my preference for the Sonore bundle vs new streamer straight into dac via less than optimized usb in streamer.
One of the more value oriented propositions some have tried is optical conversion via two generic FMC. I didn't find this to be entirely satisfactory in my setup. |
@nyev Isolation is key. I have damping weights on all of my equipment. |
It’s not the topic of this thread but I thought it may be useful to relay that I have found my Innuos gear to be so, so sensitive to vibration control. I have a ZENith Mk 3, a PhoenixUSB, and a PhoenixNET. While my 3 Innuos boxes have elaborate dampening footers, simply resting any one of my three Innuos boxes on top of Herbie’s Tenderfeet (Tall version in order to clear the stock feet), which are quite economical as far as HiFi stuff goes, really transforms the sound and not in a subtle way. I was really not expecting that type of difference. The difference is so large that in a different system with a different rack I could see some maybe not liking the change. But in my system the Tenderfeet added a large scope and scale to the sound - every frequency is presented much larger, with a more expansive soundstage. Really stunned how you can hear this just adding to one Innuos component in isolation. The best I can describe it is that there is more of a sense of drama, with improved dynamics too. I only have experience with Herbie’s vibration control, but here is the thing you can do with Tenderfeet that you can’t do with other products intended to replace stock feet: you can experiment with placement of the Tenderfeet that the component is resting on. Which brings me to the next point - it actually matters! For example I like the smoother sound of one Tenderfoot at the front of my PhoenixUSB and two at the rear, rather than the other way around which producers sharper and overly precise male vocals. Even slightly better is using 4 Tenderfeet under the PhoenixUSB even though the PhoenixUSB has only 3 stock feet. It’s not all good with Herbie’s though. Tenderfeet under my amp ruined my sound for months, and I just recently realized the Tenderfeet were to blame. So as everyone says, you may get different results in your system. But I thought it would be worth mentioning how incredibly sensitive the Innuos gear is to vibration control. You really have a massively flexible tool to adjust the sound presentation to your liking with Herbie’s + Innuos. |
@lalitk I am wondering what filtering devices you recommend. I would love to hear your thoughts also @sns @charles1dad .
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I have a Cambridge Evo 150 all-in-one. This thing is like a Swiss army knife. Many ways to stream and DAC integrated in. Do they all sound exactly the same? No. Most sound very close though. Chromecast can be a straggler sometimes. Nature of the source material is the biggest variable by far. However I hear more in most recordings of decent or better quality than ever before. I think for many who want to simply cut to the chase for top notch sound streaming an integrated device like this is the ticket. This is a future-fi trend and I expect many other new and similar devices to be coming the consumers way in the near future.
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l know that there are many happy owners of the Blue Sound streamer components. I could begin here but reading comments like yours,sns, Lalit and other experienced streamers I may as well go a step (Or two) beyond. One thing I’ve vowed to do is avoid multiple boxes and cables.😊 Charles |
I agree with Charlesdad…. If you stream a lot , the Streamer is very important as it is akin to a CD transport. Can you imagine pairing a $5000 DAC with a Coby DVD player as your transport? It will work but you just inserted a major bottle neck into the digital chain. I also have a Bluesound Vault 2i and it’s been great. It has so many things going for it , including convenience When I turn my TV on the Vault senses this , puts its input to Video and I now have. Control of the volume for TV and movies Tons of free content. On and on. But when I really want quality over convenience I power up my Aurender and Stream Qobuz or Tidal Those streams sound good on the Vault but the Aurender is noticeably better in every metric. |
Well said! I will go one step further…without network optimization, you’re not hearing full potential of your streamer or server. It is so vital to clean up the Ethernet signal from your modem or router before it enters your streamer/server. Even if your streamer/ server is galvanically isolated or use superior noise rejection circuitry, using some kind of noise filtering device is proven to be helpful in cleaning up the grunge. The degree of improvement from noise filtering devices may vary in each setup but they are generally effective. Please don’t go gadget crazy…IME, one or two high quality noise filtering devices are more than adequate, atleast that’s been true in my system. Everything matters, starting with network optimization, high quality LAN cables, streamer/server and DAC. One other thing that is not often mentioned here is Grounding - passive or active. Grounding your components appropriately can have very profound effects on overall sound of your system by way of lowering the noise floor. |
If you are using an Innuos streamer or server using the Sense app is superior to Roon software. They also are very consistent with upgrades. This is my opinion and many here are of the same opinion. I was an early adapter of the Roon Ecosystem and bought the lifetime package. Sure glad my kids are using it. |
Well stated and I appreciate your insight and perspective. My domain has been CD media which I enjoy immensely and will continue to do so. I am going to take my first step into audio streaming and am really looking forward to it. I’ll take shipment of a new DAC soon. Once that settles into the system, next will be the streaming. Regardless if discussing CD transport or server/ network player, both are digital sources that matter significantly. There’s a definite hierarchy of quality amongst CD transports and common sense dictates the same for digital streaming components. I have read many posts from experienced listeners who stream and overwhelmingly they cite the quality of the streamer as crucially important. They have heard substantial sound quality differences within this genre. This comes as no surprise. Charles |
