Network Switches
Another digital question from an analogue guy.
I am currently running an Electrocompanient EDM MKII ( Streamer DAC) and a Small Green Computer Sonic transporter. Both run off of a Trendnet ( unmanaged) basic switch.
Would an upgraded switch have any sonic impact?
If so what switches in the 500 dollar range would be recommended?
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Synergistic Research has one of the best Ethernet hubs and cables. SR makes a Router and a Switch. What's the difference? What does an audiophile Router do that a Switch does not? Is it similar to two switches? Is the order Modem, Router then Switch? What goes into the Router, just the Modem and Switch? |
antigrunge2:On what physical medium are these bits that are accompanied by ground level noise? Similarly, please localize the "analog transmitted signal of the sine wave." Which sine wave is this in reference to? |
@fthompson251 Well good luck and enjoy. |
@foggyus91 I have and I am aware. Brad makes some very fine cables regardless. This last one is a used one I snagged off USAM. But I bought the other 2 directly from Brad. |
@fthompson251 a few folks are not impressed with the RAL company. Search the threads. |
@audphile1 @lalitk @sns it is all system dependent. |
@lalitk you are correct I only tried the original Eno streaming system. |
“Network Acoustics products found them to compress dynamics in his system” That was not the case in my system when I tried ENO…it was a definite improvement vs not using any filters. The key here is to try..ENO is now on 2nd generation..ENO2. I don’t think @audphile1 tried their ENO2 (I could be mistaken in assuming that)! |
@sns good post. |
I'm not one to say switches don't affect sonics, but just like this entire thread shows results highly variable. I've tried both generic and a $1500 audiophile switch, both changed the sound and not for the better. The various filters I've tried over the years are more effective, yet they may also change the sound quality in ways not appreciated, again we see this in this thread. Bottom line there is not a single best way or network component that will be best for everyone.
My streaming chain is so entirely unique that specific recommendations are difficult, most of my knowledge comes from the 'experts' over at audiophilestyle forum. Based on that and my own experience, no wifi on audio network, every hard wired cable short as possible, this includes modem and router, this means ISP feed in listening room, clocking extremely important this includes network, so network devices like switches/filters should have quality clocks and power supplies to those clocks, filters are effective, optical is nice, quality of all cables makes a difference, this includes all DC and AC cables, quality dedicated and conditioned AC for all streaming components. So that's just for the network, a high quality dac, streamer and audio system is by far the priority, this all icing on the cake. Good test for quality streaming setup is stream sound quality should equal cd rips on local network or cd player/transport, I have over 3k rips to compare with. |
have you read my response? It’s exactly what I mentioned |
I have found that iFi is entry level at best. Save your money and dive in head first. |
I am quite impressed with the extent of responses my question has stimulated. Drilling down a bit it looks like perhaps an optical power isolator may be the most cost efficient way to go. Again, in my analogue brain it looks like the iFi Silent Power 2 is a similar device, in theory, to the effe isolator. Any chance anyone has had a experience with both? Also, a respected dealer/ friend who used to sell Network Acoustics products found them to compress dynamics in his system. As much as he enjoyed working with them he ultimately stopped carrying their products. Has anyone had a similar experience? |
“what is the effe - 01” Both ENO and effe -01 offers 30 days money back guarantee. If we’re in your shoes, i would order both and compare them side by side. That’s the only way to know for sure that these devices offers any audible benefits in your system. |
Apologies FOR not reading all of the responses (arguments). A good network switch, placed before your streamer, IMHO, makes a considerable improvement in digital sound. Those that refute this, IMHO, either have not heard it, can not hear it, or do not want to believe it. As said, a $500 unit (I have had both Ether Regen and EE Bonn 8, makes a modest improvement. A unit like the Network Acoustics Switch, the Telegartner (JCAT), or the GTT DeJitterit, makes a significant improvement. I have tried all three and own both the GTT and the JCAT Gold. Ignore naysayers if you want the best sound. Buy a switch you can return to try. NA makes this easy. Also power supplies do really matter, and any good switch needs a good LPS. Additionally, the last network cable entering your steamer matters. Try a good one, or even better, use a Network Acoustics Muon or Eno Ethernet filter between your switch and steamer, which includes a great streaming cable. |
Mswale-I agree with you. I was doing enterprise networks in 1990, doing token ring, Ethernet, and AppleTalk. I learned and mastered the Network General’s Sniffer where I could look at what was going on in each network. I could see the whole IP packet with all the associated metadata. 1 more thing, there is nothing to a switch, it forwards packets to a destination which can be another switch, router, or a device. Do a trace route to see how many hops you go thru getting to tidal/qobuz/google. All the work happens on both ends of the route, not the switch itself. My switch is more of an enterprise switch where it doesn’t use a wall wart, and I’m using a few hundred $$ power cable into the switch I also agree with the poster that i2s is the best interface. My streamers job is to change the signal path from Ethernet coming in to i2s going out. |
Not sure how expensive a system it would take to notice differences in Ethernet switches. I have a $30 gigabit switch on a Bluesound 2I and it sounds great. I have about a 10k system. I have heard much more expensive systems that are on better steamers and better Internet but not worth to me a lot of dollars more with a slight improvement. If you have the $$$ go for it and enjoy. |
https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/2810806 Thanks very much @deep_333 ! I found what i hope are equivalent devices on Amazon (bowing to tax, shipping and return issues). I’m going to try this out. I’m also tempted to do this for the reason @erik_squires mentions. I could build two “moats”: one between modem and router and then one just before the M33. good listening, everyone! |
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Effe-01 is an optical network isolator. Not exactly a switch but you are not asking about a switch because you need to branch out to many devices. You’re asking for something that can improve your network. There are many ways to skin this CAT. |
I tried the copper to fiber two box solution using a $65 set from amazon. I tested these with 3 different streamers and I did not like the effect. Yes it seems to produce a more silent background but it imparts a certain flavor to the presentation especially obvious in the mids that renders it unnatural. I made several attempts and each time yanked it out and went back to straight copper cable between eero and streamer. Streamers used: Lumin U1 Mini, Bricasti M3 DAC network renderer, Aurender N200. As to effe-01….I’d love to try it but trying something shipped from Europe is not very appealing to me as the return shipping is a pain in the 🫏 You guys can try it and let me know. I’ll be patiently waiting. |
Looks like the the iFi LAN ipurifier pro and the effe unit both run the signal through a transmitter, a receiver, and a short length of fiber. This works well, and it is essentially the exact same setup @deep_333 described in one of his posts above, except all components are integrated in a single box, which is more convenient and less unwieldy. It also costs $299 instead of $40ish. Also, discrete components let you have any length fiber run you need, handy if you keep your Internet gear in a separate room. |
@lalitk yep you and I discussed this in the past. It makes sense although these lower priced devices won’t compete with your telegartner. I have my eye on the iFi LAN ipurifier pro which is similar to effe in what it does (I gather based on a wuick look). Just can’t get around to trying it. Was tangled up in USB cables comparison and upgrade and it eventually rippled into a DAC upgrade 🤦♂️ But it’s on my list https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1828212-REG/ifi_audio_0306068_lan_ipurifier_pro.html |
Hope you didn't fall for this foolery....no breakthrough here from Cen gra d It is essentially reading to me as.....plug a nvme data drive directly into the motherboard...lol. Any half way decent gaming PC in the past 5 years will be running NVME drives. (facepalm)... If you want, I can tell you how to build a top notch "streamer" at home by yourself for less than 2k....make it sound better than a 100k streamer from Switzerland or sonething! what do you think? Here's a secret..it will be a custom PC in a console type case...you can call it a "streamer" though.
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Is there anything to what Cen. Grand has with their GLD1.0? They say that all the hardware one throws at a better sounding set up won't get you the results you want as most servers still use USB data transmission internally and that's where the degradation of the sound comes from. Data errors occur at the rate of 1 error per 12.5TB for consumer grade, 1 per 125TB for enterprise grade and 1 per 1.25PB for SSD so the problem has to lie in data transmission. Eschewing internal USB transmission, they use their own proprietary way of transmission and got a patent for it (for what that's worth). Here's the preview of a review from 6moons and here's the companies spiel on their streamer. Analysis from those of sharper minds would be appreciated. All the best, |
Thank you for referencing effe-01. The price point makes it a very attractive alternative to conventional fiber optic modules and conversion Ethernet switches + wall wart power supplies. I am using a very similar device albeit a very high price point. @audphile1 …please check it out. |
A FMC Fiber coupling pair will not just protect your gear, prevent it frying from extraneous power anomalies (lightning, etc), it will also serve as a effective noise mitigation solution for hifi. This is how the chain would flow a) Ethernet port on wall ------->
b) FMC#1 + Transciever (plug the transceiver into your FMC) -------> https://www.optcore.net/product/101001000base-t-sfp-fiber-media-converter/?attribute_pa_plug-type=us https://www.optcore.net/product/msa-1g-sfp-sx-multimode-transceiver/
c) Patch cable (for decoupling) ------------> https://www.optcore.net/product/25348/?attribute_pa_cable-length=1m
d) FMC#2 ----------------------------> If you only have a single streamer, use the same model as FMC#1 +transceiver to complete the FMC pair. If you have multiple sources/streamers in the same room requiring an ethernet input use this multiport model that takes your patch cable. https://www.optcore.net/product/mc-gsa28-l/?attribute_pa_plug-type=us Power FMC#2 with a decent linear power supply as you are concerned about the quality of everything in the chain from FMC#2 onwards (after the fiber decoupling occured).
e) High quality Ethernet cable now running from FMC#2 to any of your streamers....such as a Audioquest Cinnamon, Vodka, etc depending on what your budget is ---------->
f) You can plug that high quality ethernet cable directly into a streamer....or use additional filtering...ie. you can plug that cable into a isilencer ifi , which in turn plugs into the streamer. Here’s maybe a different alternative to the ifi isilencer.. https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/DXE-ISO-PLUS-2 There are many such ethernet filters out there (mileage may vary)....
Don’t get too crazy ocd with the quality of your transceiver, filter etc though...Getting a big bold better speaker and treating your room with some diaphragmatic absorption, QRD diffusers, etc would bear a lot more fruit.
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I added the effe isolator - Dawn Technology Limited in front of the Grimm. This adds optical fiber in the network feed to the streamer. A Sablon network cable feeds my Grimm MU1. A Sablon digital XLR feeds the Mola Mola Tambaqui. All other network cables are inakustik CAT 6 Ethernet cables.
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IME, LPS are overkill for mass produced network switches and/or router modem. Aforementioned iFI wall wart is more than adequate for them. You would position ENO between your switch or router and ECM. In order words, ENO should be the last device before Ethernet signal enters your ECM. And thank you for your feedback and referral on ECM. It does aligns with what I’ve been reading online. |
I love the ECM. Its very natural sounding, perhaps a touch warm ( which I like ). Vocals are so lifelike ; its a bit spooky at times. It does need a good 50- 100 hours break in. I had several prior DACs including Bricasti and Linn; and this is much more natural and organic sounding. Its definitely a keeper. Rob at Audio Art sells them now and he is great to work with.
Couple of questions for you regarding your post. Would I be better served with an LPS for the network switch or my router/modem? And where would the Network Acoustics ENO be positioned? |
“None of these options would break the bank” If you haven’t already, upgrade the wall-wart power supply of your Trendnet switch, something like the iFi SilentPower iPower2 for a noticeable impact. In my experience, LAN silencer-type devices don’t do much. I’d recommend saving that money and putting it toward a Network Acoustics ENO or ENO2 passive filter upstream of your EDM MKII. Those bring genuine gains in clarity and ease without adding artificial smoothness. ENO2 comes with money back guarantee, send it back if you don’t hear noticeable improvement. I might add, around $1K, the ENO is probably the best tweak you can try out. BTW, how do you like your EDM MKII? I am looking for one box solution for my 2nd system…it’s native compatibility with JPLAY app make it even more appealing. +1, @audphile1 on addressing “room acoustics, component quality and power distribution” |
I use fiber conversion but only to air-gap my cable modem from my router. This is mostly to deny lightning this path to all my expensive electronics in the house. It comes at a cost however in that I now have 2 additional power supplies to deal with. In the data closet that’s fine, but I would only use this at the audio side if my streamer took fiber directly. Otherwise I’m just creating more problems than necessary. For Ethernet isolation, again, my biggest concern is lightning. The twisted pair strands in the Ethernet cable are inherently galvanically isolated. They have to be or you’d have high currents running from switch to switch in some buildings. However at the end of long runs (30' or so) I use medical grade Ethernet isolators (UL 60-601) instead of audio grade. The reason is medical-grade isolators are tested for 4kV isolation and can deny a voltage surge another path. Avoid any network surge protector with a ground wire. |
The iFi does no harm in my system. I can’t hear any difference with it in. It provides electrical isolation and protection against transient voltage surges. I am totally cool with the fact that I don’t hear any difference with it. As opposed to Network Acoustics Eno Streaming System that I used to own and that killed the dynamics, to me this ifi gadget is a winner. Others reported improvements in sound with the ifi and that is possible but highly dependent on streamer and environment your system lives in - rfi, emi, etc. People love playing with network tweaks. It’s a low hanging fruit. Address room acoustics, component quality and power distribution that all make a much bigger impact than adding crap to remediate non-existent issues in network. That’s my $0.05 |
I do wonder if the incremental improvements would keep up with the exponential cost increases. On the lower end of the cost spectrum the LAN silencers might be worth a try ( as long as they can be returned ). Has anyone compared the IFI Lan Silencer to the Stack Audio or even the Pink Faun Lan Silencer. None of these options would break the bank. |
yep. None of this is necessary. I tried a few tweaks and removed them all. Good Ethernet cable going into high quality streamer feeding a high quality dac is all you need. Dumping $ into Ethernet tweaks (except a good cable) is a waste of money that could be directed to real improvements such as component upgrades stepping up to a better DAC. Or a better streamer, amplifier, speakers, etc |
Starting 4 years ago I built up a switch adding things that improved the sound of streaming. EtherRegen +Afterdark clock to re-time the ER, then two Farad linear power supplies then all the afterdark cables. Each added something better at the time. It was almost 4K of switch components. I lent the entire rig to my friend who said it deadened the sound. I did a full switch system to no extra switch gear and found I had gone too far as well. I sold it all off. Last year when After Dark came out with their Netone switch which I bought. The Netone includes fiber or ethernet in, a fiber bridge if you can't feed it fiber. I ordered mine with the built in linear power supply (LPS), and of course it has a clock built in at well. The Afterdark Netone made a vey nice, but not huge sonic improvement with no sonic downside I could hear. My streamer used to drop out overnight before I had the Netone. Now it never drops Qobuz. So you get a switch, fiber bridge, LPS and a clock in one box on sale for 600 bucks from time to time. I recommend you try it. |
So much misinformation on how networking works. TCP/IP packets are 100% digital, there is no place for noise, if there is any noise, it is not part of the packet. In networks, you want as few hops as possible. A hop is going from one device to another. Generally, anything you remove from the source - destination is best. Streaming can happen without any faults on a 10mb network, anything over 100mb is just not required. Next you want the shortest path you can get, unless you are running fiber, fiber doesn't care about distance as much. On that note, fiber has 0 interference, unless you bend the fiber cable, never bend a fiber cable, but you can loop it. Almost all cheap consumer switches are junk. There are a few good ones out there, but most are super cheap, crap. Get a name brand made for commercial use. Yeah, a good power supply will help, but the switch quality is more important. No idea on the filters, really have no idea how they work, or what they really do. Cables are important, pin out is important, get certified cables, it's what's being used to get the packets to you, so it's good enough for you. |
Certainly, like analog interconnects, network cabling, power supplies have an influence. I just use a Netgear GS105 at the music-server direct to an EtherRegen (MK1). The ER is powered from a Lumin U1 PSU, the GS105 from a Chinese 5A 12V linear supply. By adding SilentPower lan ipurifier pro and knock off Odin CAT8 cables, that harshness seemed to be tamed. Not a big deal, but enough to keep the gear in place. |
Fiber conversion also comes in various qualities, I've been through generic, moved up to Sonore OpticalModule and OpticalRendu. Using AfterDark Clay X Fiber cables with Finisar 1475 transceivers. So, fiber conversion quality can extend from cheap generic to Sonore equipment, and then we have power supplies to these devices to think about, DC cables and transceivers also make a sonic difference
What dac interface to use also a consideration, usb should not and is not the de facto best. I've found I2S superior to even quality usb implementation in three different dacs, one of those dacs having one of the best usb implementations I've come across. Whatever interface is chosen, optimal implementation always key.
Bottom line on streaming is, sound quality can be incredibly variable, took 10 years of experimentation with every single facet of the streaming chain to complete my setup. First thing to attend to in any streaming chain is dac and streamer, all these other optimizations are marginal gains vs having top quality dac and streamer. So first place to spend money is dac and streamer, I'd never spend $1500 or even $500 on some audiophile switch with a $10k dac, let alone much less expensive dac. The Sonore OpticalRendu is a really good investment for reasonable money, you get fiber conversion, optimization of usb interface and streamer capability via Roon Endpoint in one package. This is first place I'd spend my money if trying to improve a middling streaming setup. Adding some fancy switch is money poorly spent in comparison to this.
Finally, not saying all audiophile switches of no value, I'm considering replacing my audio or 'clean' network router with a managed switch, specifically the Dejitter Swtich X. Now I would suggest even a generic managed switch could be a nice upgrade for many. With the managed switches you have the ability to assign IP addresses along with all the same features of all switches. The managed switch replaces the router entirely, the single noisiest component in streaming chain, this due to EMI-RFI contamination, self generated noise, network congestion. Using the managed switch one assigns IP address to a whole house router, your run LAN cable to whole house router, voila, no more RFI contamination, less self generated noise and network congestion. The Dejitter swtich is simply a highly modified managed switch, the advantages of this switch are manifestly clear based on my research. |
Agree with @sns as a good first step prior to diving into FMCs and switches.
Also agree with @erik_squires as which tracks with SNS’ prior comment. Personally, I was skeptical of FMCs until I had a positive experience with SGC FMC bundle to avoid compatibility issues when starting out. I’ve since progressed to a better FMC and more LPS throughout. Bringing it back full circle, I was surprised how much of an impact an LPS had on my generic switch, usage of iFi LAN iSilencer on other accessories, and separate power conditioner. Nonetheless, I was just as skeptical as some in this thread, but experience can offer positive surprises for those that are willing to experiment - not always, but sometimes. |
I agree with antigrunge2 about the etherRegen (eR) between a standard switch and the streamer. After doing this, I added another eR in series. Now my network: standard switch thru cat6 to eR thru fiber optic to another eR through my best cat6 cable into streamer (an HQPlayer NAA in my case). The SMPS that comes with eR is good. A linear PS can make an additional, subtle, improvement. Without the eR in the chain, a linear power supply on the std switch made a big difference. With the eR in place this improvement is subtle. |
Following discussions like this is the reason I have stuck with my CD transport and not gone into streaming yet. Just don't have it in me to tackle another audio project after having gone through all the somewhat simpler considerations that were bought to bear on setting up the system I have arrived at after years of fiddling. |
“If you want to eliminate any noise into your streamer or dac, convert the Ethernet to fiber then back to Ethernet at the streamer/dac.” @rbstehno , @deep_333 and anybody else who knows, I’ve been thinking about trying this, as an empirical experiment. In my case, I’ve got a cable modem capable of 2.5Gb speed, but my ISP tops out at 1.3Gb, going into an eero 7 which then connects to a standard unmanaged ZYXEL switch, which itself is connected only to a Roon Nucleus One and my streamer/dac (all integrated into my NAD M33), which has an iFi silencer in its port. So, as i don't have or need 10Gb capability, do i need anything beyond 2 media converters and a length of 1000 BASE-LX or SX fiber cable? And is LX (single mode) necessary —or better - when the run will be less than 1 meter? Assuming SX is fine, do these converters fit the bill? https://www.cablesandkits.com/cabling/fiber/media-converters/mcmmsc-1gb/pro-4528/ Anybody have recommendations for fiber? will this do the trick? https://www.cablesandkits.com/mc/om3-lc-lc/fam-531/fp-3818/ thanks! |
Why anybody would convert Ethernet to usb into a dac/streamer is nuts, going backwards in sound quality. Ethernet into the dac will always sound better than usb, anything sounds better than usb! I wouldn’t use any switch with a wall wart power source going to my dac or streamer. I go out of my mesh router into a switch that has the power source built in, use an Soundstring power cable into the switch, and then into the streamer using a cat 7 Audioquest Vodka cable, then using a Revelation Audio $700 i2s cable from the streamer into the dac. At an audio show, a dealer was doing a a/b comparison between an expensive $2000 audiophile switch and a typical switch and I thought the system sounded better with the cheap switch.
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