Network optimization for serious streamers

The thread has virtually collapsed.

Which is what I said once the Troll started posting. 
 

Which is essentially exactly their objective: destroy 

@agirard of course I am sure about it. Look at your comments and how Ethernet, TCP/IP, and streaming protocols work. Your comments are not anchored in reality, hence I asked you to post just one thing that supports your claim. That’s complete dishonesty. You either knew it was untrue, or you made it up on the fly.

as for my dishonesty, he literally said Cat7 cables from AQ and Nordost, if that is not audiophile companies, well, then tell me what is.

But like I also posted, in the end, there was a lot of audible issues, issues that was not attributed at all to Ethernet, which is the point. You can have a lot of noise in your system, but none can be attributed to Ethernet.

01-21-2023 at 10:52am

All he did was move those cables in the chain. Go re read the post. You have issues with reading comprehension and that was one particular streamer. He moved the AQ, WW and Nordost ahead of his switch. 
 

Point is you will twist the facts to fit your narrative. Now move along and go fishing elsewhere. 

When threads become bogged down in arguments and are no longer productive they die, people quit following them.

This is intentional act by the provocateur, have need to deny full and open discussion. People want to read threads that constantly and consistently present new information, repetitious and circular arguments don't present new info. These threads replicate what I see in political threads, repeat, repeat, repeat. This thread ruined!

This thread ruined!

Troll's mission accomplished!

I said it before and say it again…stop taking the bait from the likes of fredrik222. 

They will go away if you don’t engage them.  
 

Why I mentioned previously, no longer engage in cable arguments.

Intention is at issue, simply presenting experiential evidence or having need for people to agree with you. One exposes psychological processes usurping free and open discussion.

Eventually, this kind of back and forth exhausts people, I've seen any number of valued members leave this site for this very reason. Its fine to argue, its the repetition  that's exhausting, make your point once or twice, we get it!

Still a great thread. Getting some nice info and just ignoring those with no actual listening and comparing experience. I always appreciate actual listening experiences from audiophiles who have put in the time, effort and money and learned from actual listening experience. Keep it coming!

@grannyring 

So true. Enjoying this thread for the multitude of experiential sharing. Just ignore what is not profitable and let's keep the thread moving.

With the amount of recent threads on Networking here on the 'Gon, it is obvious that there is significant interest in optimizing Networks as users find ways to get better sound. Lovin' it.

@jerryg123 perhaps you should read again ?  
 

So, I benched all the Cat7-8 Wirewold/Nordost and Audioquest Diamond stuff and replaced them with high quality unshielded Cat 5 cables and got a nice upgrade in sound quality

Literally says he removed them. 

@lalitk 

I said it before and say it again…stop taking the bait from the likes of fredrik222. 

They will go away if you don’t engage them.  

I will personally go away when you stop saying everyone needs an Etherregen otherwise streaming sucks and your system isn’t resolving. Since that won’t happen, I guess we are stuck! 

@agisthos since you or someone else flagged my post, which I have no idea why.

He literally says he benched the audiophile cables and got an upgrade, so not acknowledging that is dishonest 

So, I benched all the Cat7-8 Wirewold/Nordost and Audioquest Diamond stuff and replaced them with high quality unshielded Cat 5 cables and got a nice upgrade in sound quality

@agisthos as for your experience and knowledge, your post that I have asked several times for some sort of reference, just shows the sad state of the IT profession.

Let me share my journey tweaking my streaming network that I built around a Small Green Computer bundle.

FO through wall > ONT > ethernet cat 8 > router > cat 8 > $15 switch > cat 8 > i5 Transporter.

Same switch > cat 8 > FMC > Fiber optic > FMC > cat 8 > ultraRendu with LPS > Pangea Audio Premier SE MKII USB Cable to Benchmark DAC3B.

I had completely solved all power problems in my system to achieve a superior black background. The above still had grunge :

1. I added a LPS with a Y adapter to power both FMC = better

2. I added a LPS to the Transporter = better

3. I replaced the LPS power chords with Pangea Audio AC-14SE MkII = better

4. I wrapped my fiber optical cable in bubble wrap. It seems they are sensitive to vibrations. = better

5. I replaced the 3 post switch cat 8 ethernet cables with Pangea Premier SE = way way way better, but STILL some remaining niggly grunge!

I had not bought into the $700-$2000+ ethernet switch mania. I had bought my $15 plastic covered switch from Home Depot. I did try a more expensive switch and sent it back because I could hear no improvement. I rewired post switch and removed the FMCs. LISTENED. Then I added the FMCs back in. They were definitely improving the sound, by a lot!

6. I ordered a iFi iPower X Ultra Low Noise AC/DC Power Supply for the switch. I took out the FMCs again and installed the new PS. WHAM!! The sound came into complete focus. I reinstalled the FMCs again and now a huge amount of grunge had disappeared.

7. The new Pangea Audio Premier XL MKII USB Cable came on the market, which separates out the 5v current wire from the signal wires. Because my Benchmark DAC was using the 5v current, I replaced my previous Pangea Audio Premier SE MKII USB Cable (same wire and connecters) and wiped another smear of noise from the window. This is the single biggest improvement of all these suggestions.

8. Shutting the WIFI off in my primary router and using a wireless access point to regain WIFI for the house. It has been less than 24 hours since I did this but the result seems principally in opening up the soundstage : width, depth, and clearer separation. It is too early, but this clarity is maybe revealing other flaws that somehow need to be creatively addressed!?!?! (Are the transients too rounded?)

This was a 3 1/2 year journey. I learned a ton along the way. I hope it is helpful to someone else.

@singingg 

Exactly the kind of knowledge sharing the great majority of us are looking for here. Thank you very much.

I am interested in trying the Melco C100 ethernet cable to see if the ground break in the shield offers any benefits. I found out it will not be available in the USA until late March.

@singingg : thank you very much for sharing your experience and the journey.

As it pertains to your subsequent post:

I am interested in trying the Melco C100 ethernet cable to see if the ground break in the shield offers any benefits

There are already affordable options available in the market that accomplish this. This is the one I own and I am familiar with: https://www.ghentaudio.com/pc/et11.html

For those who are interested learning on the concept:

@singingg

Thanks for sharing your journey. The Melco C100 Ethernet cable appears to offer a unique feature, will keep an eye on users direct experience with this cable.

“The opposite (non-grounded) end of the cable features an innovative ‘floating’ shield, which is not attached to the connector plug, meaning unwanted noise cannot transfer to connected audio devices downstream”.

I am also anxiously waiting for Telegartner Optical Isolator North America release. I personally prefer Ethernet cable over Optical Fiber so it will be interesting to learn how this device further enhances my listening pleasure :-) 

@thyname  With the ungrounded shield end, the Melco cable will not meet CAT specs, and will therefore be unique.

Hope we're back on track! @singingg Thanks for sharing.

I seem to recall reading on some forums that various boutique LAN cables not running ground on both ends, why I mentioned in previous post Cat 7 not always grounded both ends. Even thought that was case with the AQ Vodka?

Back to optical possibilities, I've installed  the upgraded Finisar transceivers and AfterDark optical cable between first streamer using in server mode only, to OpticalRendu dedicated streamer. This  with Sonore OM as first FMC. Burning in at present, listening later in week. Setup with two Sonore OM with the Finisar installed could also be an optimized optical feed in front of any streamer. This would be rather expensive solution, $1k for two OM, plus lps for both, pair of Finisar 1475 running aprox. min. $200-$300 each these days. This may give even best ethernet setups run for money, or perhaps be superior. I may have to try someday. A router with optical out could work in place of one OM, issue is router may not have removable transceiver and/or operate with Finisar 1475.

The Telegartner optical isolator looks interesting, could be challenger to two box OM solution, don't see price for this.

@sns I bought 2 Finisar 1475 from CDW for under $200.00 they are OTW to me as  I type. Trying them based on feedback at WBF. 
 

@jerryg123 You found good price, no stock at $100 price suppliers. I suspect there was run on these based on some of these audiophile forums.

Just posted the following on another thread. For those who have ethernet ISP and go optical conversion route. So, we have to convert ethernet to optical back to ethernet. For optimum, perhaps supreme scheme, here is following nuts setup, router or switch optimized via LPS, cables, etc> ethernet optimized via something like Acoustic Network Muon> FMC's-two opticalmodules with Finisar or Telegartner unit Latik mentioned ( quality cabling, LPS on both)>ethernet, optimized again via NA Muon>streamer. Crazy! Now, how about two box setup, two streamers, first is server only, second streamer only, the above fully optimized setup on both sides of streamer, now we're really going crazy. Question is would it all be worth it?

I've actually seen individuals doing daisy chain stuff like this over WB and audiophilestyle forums. Claims of being worth it.

Yes I have read those same posts at WB and find it very intriguing 🤔 

@sns Just to let you know i've had a lot of drop outs lately using the Finisar 1475 paired with the Sonore Optical module.

Since 1475 is SFP+ there might be incompatibility problems with Sonore optical gear ?

Anyway i went back to Finisar 1318 and everything works fine with this one and it's just as good as the 1475.

@thieliste That's somewhat worrisome, although could be caused by any number of things. I do have 500gb service with modem/router close to audio system, high quality LAN cables, little or no processing going on with Roon, generally running at less than 35 on only two cores of I9 Intel processor, server barely idling.

Drop outs could be due to many factors, I'll fire up Roon tonight and see if any dropouts. I'm thinking not likely to be Sonore issue since it works at all,  likely to be that 1475 requires more precision/optimization from network if network is indeed the issue. It could be your drop out issue more related to OS, music player, processing needs? Perhaps try less processing with music player?

Meant to say 3% on the cores.

“Now, how about two box setup, two streamers, first is server only, second streamer only, the above fully optimized setup on both sides of streamer”

@sns

Above reminds of some of the extreme analog setups, separate TT for stereo and mono recordings or TT with multiple tonearms to accommodate stereo, mono, MM or MC carts :-)

You always been an advocate for separate renderer and server, driven by your preference for ROON. For this reason alone, I commend Aurender vision and efforts to develop their very own robust app and hardware that is devoid of all the complexities, challenges and compromises accompanies ROON driven setups.

After spending two years with ROON, I believe most one or two box ROON solutions are somewhere between decent and good sound unless you step deep into Pink Faun, Taiko and WADAX territory. Outside this territory, ROON’s best sound fully realized when you run Core and Rendering separately over very high quality components designed for audio streaming with proper care given to everything linking these two components to your Modem and DAC.

@lalitk I can only say the two prior owners of my streamer, builder and subsequent owner compared my streamer to many of the best plug n play streamers on market, one of the last and best compared to was Aurender W20SE, both preferred this build to that, last comparison was to Taiko Extreme, both purchased Taiko Extrerme. At the time of these comparisons, my streamer was using HDPLex internal swps with a variety of external LPS. Since my purchase I eliminated HDPlex replaced with JCAT Optimo S ATX, this at entire different level vs the HDPLex with any LPS. I've also added JCAT NetXE for ethernet optimization. Both individuals were also using my build with somewhat upgraded Intel motherboard based usb rendering with the Euphony version 4 OS and full proprietary Stylus music player, this player gets high marks from users, preferred to Roon. So, I've compared my streamer in this configuration with the upgraded JCAT power supply to the two box solution with the Sonore equipment running Roon, I greatly prefer the Sonore with Roon to all Stylus, Roon with Stylus endpoint, any HQPlayer configuration I've tried. Now, I still have yet to try optimized usb rendering with custom build via Pink Faun or JCAT USB XE, this could tip balance in favor of custom build running Stylus, all Sonore out of system.

In any case, I'd not deride Sonore equipment, if price is sole determiner of quality, this may not correlate with expectations. There have been a number of reviews of Sonore equipment allied to best streamers on market, the Sonore has competed and/or exceeded these streamers in sq. Michael Lavorgnia  of Twittering Machines is one who's found Sonore Signature Rendu a compliment to some of top streamers out there. Sig Rendu is opticalRendu with integrated power supply, I'm running opticalrendu off Uptone JS2, a choke based power supply which may have advantages over any cap based PS. JS2 also powering JCAT NET XE.

In any case, while direct comparisons of my build in my system to top echelon plug n play hasn't been done, I'd put my custom build up against any of the top echelon based on these two individual's comparisons with lesser power supply and usb rendering at time they compared. Towards that end, I will soon compare to one of most extreme custom build streamers, this uses best of best components, every single T crossed, I dotted, this will give greater idea of where my setup stands. And I should explore my nearby audio emporiums for possible demo of top echelon for curiosities sake.

I understand my custom build has no comparative evaluation against top echeon plug n play other than these two individuals, so my testimony as to sound quality is only one man's opinion. This doesn't mean it should be discounted, I do know highest quality sound reproduction via audio systems from listening to audiophile systems since 1970's, some many multiples of $100K.

As for anyone contemplating custom builds based on Windows platform and long and winding road leading to my custom build, audiophilestyle forum is the place. Thread that involves my exact build is contained within a thread with heading starting with ''A Massive Way To Improve'. Thread is probably over 800 pages at this point, path to this build started in 2017.

I understand this forum not much for diy, especially in computer/streamer realm. People in the know are on audiophilestyle and whatsbest forums. There are individuals on these forums driving the entire industry, have much more knowledge than any of us! These are my reference points for computer audio.

OP,

Did you find any improvement in sound quality with the ISP speed at 1Gbps compared to 500 Mbps?

@sns

As your server is configured please give us a ballpark cost to build. This is a project I would find fun, but I think the cost could be my block. Thanks!

@cowhorn I went from 300 to 500gb. Yes, I did hear improvement, whether this due to increased speed alone or due to required move to 1gb capable modem in combo I can't say.

@grannyring $3k for internal parts, case and passive cooling packages prices all over the place, $800 for JCAT Net XE, $6k for JCAT Optimo S ATX, also requires another external lps dedicated to JCAT Net board, I'm using Uptone JS2, around $1k. . Each JCAT or Pink Faun PCIE board will cost $800-$1000 each, this includes  choice of usb, AES/EBU, I2S.  Then you'll need OS, variable price, I went with Euphony, Stylus included, also purchased Roon and HQPlayer. So starting price can be $11k or so, goes up from there. While this build is pretty high end, one can go further these days, innovations come fast and furious with these custom streamer builds, spending limits virtually anything imaginable. 

Add to this labor time procuring parts, sometimes difficult to find in stock these days. Choosing which parts to purchase can also be a long slog with a multitude of items like motherboards, RAM, processors, etc, ti choose from. Add assembly and getting OS, music players operational. One wins on parts cost, this level of parts does not exist in any streamer other than Wadax and Taiko, labor hours really add up! If you like building things and enjoy steep learning curves diy custom build right up one's alley. While I didn't build this particular streamer, already planning new build with some of the newer innovations out there. I've been building all my general service tower computers for years, this no more difficult  except in procuring some of these boutique parts and determining optimal configurations of multiple things like OS, music players, BIOS.

Getting back to original topic, the more resolving the streamer, the more network upgrades pay off. Every upgrade is magnified, no server above the need for network optimization, in fact just the opposite.

I should add one could start with HDPlex internal ps allied to external LPS and save substantially over $6K JCAT I went with. The HDPlex route is very nice for a much more reasonable cost. say $1-3K depending on which HDPlex and LPS one chooses. So now talking around $6k or so for very nice build.

Great information and much appreciated @sns.  Helps me better understand what costs and options are involved! 

Bill, 

DIY is simply part of your DNA. I’m surprised that you have resisted the temptation to tinker with your Tron Atlantis DAC. 😊

Charles

You're very welcome, would like to see these custom builds get some traction at this forum. Worst part of these builds is procuring the parts, assembling is fun!

@thieliste and others. I've had Finisar 1475's and new optical cable burning in for several hours, all streaming tracks, no local files off NAS purposely,  playing for several hours, not a single drop out I've detected. I'm burning in without listening so if there's micro second drop outs may not detecting, but second counter on Roon is showing absolutely no hiccups. Simple plug n play with my Sonore and network, everything exactly as before. Listening for later in week.

@sns I haven’t kept up with the novel that unfolded here. But I wanted to post Hans’ video as another possible consideration for upstream digital optimization. In this video, Hans reviews the SOtM sCLK OCX10 clock. He only uses it with the SOtM streamer in this review, but I’m seeing for the first time that clocks can be used with network switches too. It looks like SOtM and EtherRegen switches have inputs for 10MHz clocks. Do you know of components even farther upstream that accept clock inputs? Like servers?

I understand that high quality clocks are very important in pro audio gear (like audio interfaces) and in audiophile streamers and DACs. But I don’t understand how gear upstream from the stream could benefit from a higher quality clock. And I didn’t know there was even a market for external clocks for upstream gear until yesterday.

Yesterday been comparing Finisar 1421BTL, 1324BTL and 1318BTL.

I much prefer 1318 over the other 2, it is much more resolving, has more slam and a wider soundstage.

1318 is basically at the same level as 1475 IMO, 1318 can still be purchased new at Mouser.

My server is a fanless Roon Rock NUC powered by a Farad super 3 LPS going into my PP Quad Switch and off to Aqua LinQ streamer with HQPlayer core module.

As far as clocks and networks go, clocking in routers and switches, clocks in streamers, clocks in dac. I have upgraded OXCO clocks in everything but router. I don't believe one needs external separate clock if good clocks are contained within the above components. I believe one the reasons some prefer switches to routers or as add ons to networks is the less than optimum clocks in routers. So, I assume clock in new Netgear is not of highest quality, but then measuring ping time with it jitter is non issue, but then this is on input, output jitter unknown. So, in fact this could be weakest jitter link in my entire chain. But then I tried audiophile router in order to bypass this limitation in my other Netgear router, sound quality diminished with addition of this switch with it's superior OXCO clock! And I'm not the only one who's found audiophile switches or any switch to NOT be of any benefit. Reason I now keep it simple, router direct to streamer and NAS.  I'd like to try a router with an OXCO clock, this would retain my direct route, add top flight clock. This would tell me if optimized clocks in routers of any benefit.

I'll also reiterate I presume top flight clocking critically important in streamers. The JCAT Net XE board in my streamer goes to great lengths to provide first class network filtering, clocking and maintain dynamics, assuming power supplies on these boards impact dynamics. While I haven't tried the Femto clock version of these boards, the OXCO clock on XE board, based on many reviewers, is far superior to Femto clock version. For non Windows based motherboard streamers, one will have to decipher from manufacturers literature how optimized ethernet port is. I assume vast majority connect directly to motherboard relying on mb power supply and clocking, not optimal way to go. Assume this is why so many derive great benefit from external filters, clocks on LAN lines into streamers.

All the Sonore equipment also attentive to clocking, superior clocking in both OM and OR, no need for external clocking. I did have SOTM SMS 200Neo, this without external clock provision, recall individuals claiming version with external clock provision when used with external clock superior to my version.

For myself, think I prefer optimized clocking within each component. This because it makes more tidy network, and Ed Meitner's contention that external clocking is a joke, effective clocking attained through clocks being placed closest position possible to circuit it's affecting. I believe one can find his thoughts on this on EMM Labs website, or perhaps I read it on audiophilestyle forum?

Can't wait to hear effect of 1475 in Sonore, not sure what to expect, everything so fine tuned now, curious if this upsets apple cart. I wouldn't want voicing to be changed one iota, if things remain neutral while adding resolution/transparency I'll be happy camper. Over the entirety of 16/44 sampling rates it continues to amaze how much the lowly cd quality has to give, would never have believed this much info available from where this started in 1980's. I recall just absolutely terrible sound quality from early digital, just amazing what we've come to! I couldn't care less about up and over sampled streaming or cd rips. Perhaps the 1475 will prove cd quality amazing all over again.

By the way, @lalitk  I've not come to final conclusion as to whether Roon best in two streamer or one streamer setup. My issue has always been less that optimal usb rendering via my primary streamer, someday I'll install JCAT or Pink Faun usb board, I then might prefer a one box setup with Roon. The issue isn't that Roon requires two box setup, rather its MY PARTICULAR setups have preferred it. This is one of the reasons I continue to dwell on usb rendering, or any rendering scheme, I hear greatly diminished sound quality using less than optimized rendering. Rendering is one of the most important functions of streamers, I want every link in chain to be optimized. 

@sns 

Over the entirety of 16/44 sampling rates it continues to amaze how much the lowly cd quality has to give, would never have believed this much info available from where this started in 1980's. I recall just absolutely terrible sound quality from early digital, just amazing what we've come to! I couldn't care less about up and over sampled streaming or cd rips. Perhaps the 1475 will prove cd quality amazing all over again.

You aren’t the only hardcore DIY streamer to make this observation. It seems that those who have put considerable time, effort and experimentation into their digital systems have reach very similar conclusions with regard to 16/44.1 If one has well chosen high quality hardware, 16/44.1 gives up very little if “anything “ to high resolution alternatives. As always YMMV.

Charles

@charles1dad +1

@charles1dad 

I agree, the 16/44.1 resolution on CD or streaming can be just as good as any other high resolution file. I don’t buy the notion that high resolution is always going to sound better. To me, it’s the original master source that matters the most. This is one of the main reason, I am still buying and paying top dollars for CD’s that are mastered from original analog tapes. 

@lalitk

I don’t buy the notion that high resolution is always going to sound better. To me, it’s the original master source that matters the most.

As time passes I have become increasingly convinced that this is the truth. Original recording mastering quality is profoundly important.

Charles

16/44.1 is good enough. This has been gone over so many times it's like beating a dead horse. It's a numbers game, like with the horsepower wars back in the day. It's why I don't bother to stream. If they found a way to make you pay to listen to FM radio, they would. 

Having millions of songs at your fingertips is like having hundreds of cable TV channels you never, ever watch. The last thing I want to do is be a curator and custodian of music that I can never own. I know what music I like, buy it, and occasionally scour the internet to hear what catches my fancy, and that's enough for me.

From  all that I've read here on these threads about streaming, it would cost me practically the entirety of my present system, and the music may be as good as what I play in my CDP. No thanks. Knowing myself, that would drive me to the madhouse.

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise Just because you stream doesn't mean you can't purchase music, I still purchase via downloads and/or cd's to rip to NAS.

Streaming doesn't have to be complex, things being done on this thread are for the serious streamer or those with OCD tendencies :) One has to enjoy processes if they expect  OCD attention to detail to be worthwhile endeavor, otherwise all this will be perceived as a burden. By the way, streaming has potential to sound much better than playing cd's. I heard this potential way back in day when I was running Mark Levinson ML37, Phillps pro transport with proprietary mounting ol laser mechanism and very nice power supply. Gave up on cd's after far too many laser failures, paying big money for disposable component burned me too many times.

@sns I understand that part of it but hard drives always have to backed up by....hard drives. There will always be failures. I imagine more so than lasers going bad. I've been in this hobby since the '80s and have yet to have a CDP go bad on me. Once I had a drawer stick closed and it turned out to be a faulty micro switch. The only hassle was sending it back for repairs. 

I was just relating my limits and didn't mean to offend anyone who's really into this. Heck, I even defend those who do and the process they go through in getting what they want out of it. Anything to further this hobby is fine with me but this is not my cup of tea. I prefer good old coffee.

I only said what I said when it was brought up that Redbook is a pretty good read to go by, and when done right, hit's all the high notes.

All the best,
Nonoise