As @lalitk, I totally agree with your statement on , "while we may disagree with other's opinions', we can't disagree with their experience". This is the approach we all need to take. Instead of using logic on paper, let us try actually using some of this different componentry to achieve better sound. This is what is driving the industry now and I think it has significantly pushed digital in a good direction.
Network optimization for serious streamers
In my ongoing experiments, now going on seven years, with network optimization for streaming I've discovered a number of optimizations that should work with any ethernet ISP.
I've tried a variety of ethernet cables, modems, routers, switches, FMC, ethernet filters, the following is what I've found to be most effective optimizations.
I'll start with ISP quality and speed. Recently I discovered 500mbps to be preferable to 300mbps. Along with upgrade in speed, modem capable of 1gb service replaced 600mbps, both have Broadcom chips and powered by same lps. Can't say which more responsible for improvement, speed or modem, presume speed has at least some role in ping time. As for ISP, there is importance in ISP server geographic location to you, shorter distances means lower ping time. For information as to how ping time affects jitter-https://www.fusionconnect.com/speed-test-plus/ping-jitter-test
Now for modems, modem close to audio system is most favorable, extending coax cable preferable to long ethernet cable. Coax more resistant to rfi and closer positioning to system means one can more easily afford top quality ethernet cable for modem to router connection. The modem should use Broadcom chipset vs. inferior Intel Puma, Broadcom chipset has lower jitter vs the Intel. Modem should be powered via external lps using quality DC and AC cables, lps to power conditioner for ultimate performance.
Following close positioning of modem to audio system, router should also be placed near modem in service of same advantage of making highest quality ethernet cable more affordable, in this case, modem to router and router to switches, streamers and NAS. Router should be powered with lps, this lps should be able to provide more amps than router requires in service of providing greater reliability, having lps with reserves of amperage means lps runs cooler, heat is enemy of reliability, longevity. As with modem, quality dc, ac cables and connection to power conditioner.
The next finding is new to me, provides very meaningful upgrade to streaming sound quality. Noise from wifi, injected both internally to router and externally with routers sitting close to audio systems has long been a concern to me. I have quality Trifield meter which measures rfi, router with operational wifi manufacture obscenely high levels of rfi, rfi is noise, noise is enemy of streaming at level we're talking about here. And its very likely the more wifi devices one has in home the higher the levels of rfi produced. This noise is then injected into following cables and streaming equipment. One may convince themselves FMC totally isolates this noise, and while correct, it doesn't mitigate the noise and masking going on within router. The only way to eliminate this noise is turning off wifi. And then, how to provide wifi for the many wifi devices we have at home? The answer is to connect a second router to the primary router. The primary router will only provide ethernet for streamers, switches and/or NAS in audio system, also for the second router. Second router provides wifi for the home, this scheme keeps vast majority of rfi out of audio system streaming chain. My own measurements find rfi significantly diminished in primary router, more than mulitiples of ten times lower vs wifi enabled. This was seamless install with the Netgear routers I'm using. There may also be value in provisioning higher quality routers. My new primary router, Netgear XR1000 is marketed as a gamer router, claims of lower ping time, latency, jitter vs other routers. Since my old router, Netgear RS7000 didn't have means to monitor ping time I can't provide evidence of this claim. Whatever the case, my XR1000 ping time test measurements are as follows, 25.35ms highest, 16.50ms lowest, this is A+ measurements against objective criteria. Ping time under load is download 25.93ms, upload 37.34ms, idle 17.31ms, this rates as A. My speed of 565gbps rates B grade, likely need 1gb service to get A here. At to how this all pertains to sound quality, adding up the upgrade in ISP speed and the off loading of wifi is without a doubt one of the most substantial, if not most substantial network upgrades I've experienced. While I long considered my setup as having a vanishing low noise floor, with this setup I heard a new level of vanishing if such a thing is possible. Even more astounding was a more analog like presentation, while I wasn't aware of even the slightest digital presentation prior, this upgrade certainly exposed it was indeed there. It seems logical to conclude there has been some lowering of jitter here.
And then we come to the ethernet filter. I suppose audiophile switches can be considered as one, then we have actual filters such as Network Acoustics Muon, my JCAT Net XE and others. I continue to believe these necessary even with the all measures above.
Optical conversion is also valid approach post router. While I found generic FMC somewhat effective, at this point I prefer ethernet. On the other hand I've not yet tried optimizing a fiber solution, for example two Sonore OpticalModules, both powered by lps, further upgraded with Finisar optical transceivers.
Assuming one has high resolving audio and streaming systems the above network optimizations should provide for substantial sound quality improvements. In my system, perception of performers in room has been taken to a new level of intimacy, meaning a more emotional connection to the performers and performance.
At this point, I consider network has been fully optimized, the only upgrade I'm aware of would be ISP upgrade to 1gb.
Showing 15 responses by pokey77
So true. Enjoying this thread for the multitude of experiential sharing. Just ignore what is not profitable and let's keep the thread moving.
With the amount of recent threads on Networking here on the 'Gon, it is obvious that there is significant interest in optimizing Networks as users find ways to get better sound. Lovin' it. |
I've read that the ER will run cooler with 12v over on the AS website. I use a Paul Hynes SR4T LPS now and it is a lot better than the stock wall wart. I use an AC Infinity fan to cool the ER when it is warmer in the house. I unplugged it a few weeks ago because it was not needed now. I discovered this trick over on the AS website as well - they can be bought on Amazon. |
"3. Extrapolating on this experience, I now KNOW I have to replace the SMPS with LPS on the ONT and router from my ISP. A jump in performance awaits me. I have picked out the models and I am searching searching for a good price. Patience, patience." -This is where I am at now too. What LPS are you going to use? Are you going to get a dual rail LPS or two single rail? Of use one single rail with a Yspliter to power both? Thanks for sharing. |
I am also on ATT fiber with apparently the same two devices, Router + ONT. I had been thinking the iFi Elite would be a good choice but was also thinking about a 2-rail LPS and the Keces was also on my radar (along with the Uptone JS2 twin-rail LPS). Tom over on "Toms Corner" forum on WBF recommended the Keces LPS and likes them a lot. They are also reasonably priced. About 20 days ago, I changed out the stock ATT-provided Network cable from the ONT to the Router with a 1M Supra Cat8+ I had in a box in the garage and I think I'm liking it better. But I'm also wondering if I lost a bit of resolution. I just need to make myself switch back to the ATT Network cable and listen to see what I like best. Keep me updated on what you do with your ATT ONT/Router. My next step has been to start researching what people are doing as far as LPS for this part of the system, so great that I found you are currently working on that as well. You can look at my sig for the other items I've changed in my network. |
You and I have the same internet provider and the same ONT and Router. On 1/28/23 I substituted the stock ATT Network cable between the ONT and Router with Supra Cat8+ and initially it sounded louder and maybe slightly better. But it took a week to start coming around and really didn't seem to settle until 2/8 or 2/9. Results were that it seemed to be quieter, exhibit less distortion, but also seemed to have less resolution. I have hoped that the resolution would return, but I'm not sure it has. So, today I reversed the direction of the Supra 8+ on the ONT/Router. Sounds fairly the same so far after listening for maybe two hours. I'm gonna give it a week and if the resolution still does not return, I'm going to put the stock ATT cable back in. This has taken way too long, but hopefully in one to two weeks I'll know the answer. BTW, I'm a total believer in Network cables, I've tried a few different cables and this cable, Amazon.com: LINKUP - [GHMT & DSX8000 Certified Cat8 Ethernet Patch Cable S/FTP 22AWG Double Shielded Solid Cable | 2000MHz 2GHz 40Gbps | 5th-Gen Ethernet LAN Network 40G Structure Wires |Yellow| 1 M (3.3ft) : Electronics, is a good bit better than the Supra Cat8+ and is also a little cheaper too! I was waiting until I had finally figured this out, but decided to provide an interim report of my findings. |
I know another person who bought a 50' run of the Linkup 8 and so far they really like it. All of my Linkup 8 are 3'. I have not moved forward with buying an LPS as of yet. Really need to do a bit more research. You mentioned that you have a Y connector for running from the iFi Elite to the ONT and Router. Would you provide me a link to that? |
So after reading your comments on Network cable and the ATT Router/ONT cable, I decided to use a spare Supra Cat8+ between the ONT and Router. Once the 8+ was in, the sound was always, but only, a little better than the stock ATT-supplied Network cable. After a few weeks, it didn't seem like it was doing all it should, or to say I didn't really like the sound. So, I reversed the direction of the 8+, and it became more natural and over the course of a week everything sounded as it should be - the sound opened up and the resolution was much greater being extended more on both the bottom and the top, a more realistic presentation. So I have duplicated your experience in the same ATT fiber network location and I'm glad you wrote about it. I've discovered I have a LinkUp 8 cable I can try in that position, but will wait until I'm needing a change, for now I just want to listen to music. BTW, I found that LinkUp 8 needs a couple of weeks to burn in and settle. Even the Supra Cat8+ I wrote about above took a week to fully settle in once placed in the correct direction, and it already had thousands of hours on it (but had been in a box of cables for a year or two). So you may want to consider trying it again for an extended period. Anyway, enjoy and thanks! |
Well then, I guess we both stumbled onto the directionality thing by sheer chance. I'm glad I read this thread. System update. It is sounding sublime - and now the audiophile terms. The noise floor has dropped considerably and so you can really hear things not just more clearly, but more fully. There is better separation of the instruments and the background. With the reduced noise, there are significantly greater dynamics and a more complete and holographic sound. I was fairly sure that changing the cable that connects the AT&T ONT to the router would bring a decent change, but wow, it is a very substantial change indeed, and I'm loving it. I'm kind of wary about any more changes for a while as I've been through some weeks now with subpar sound quality. I'm so glad to be at this point now and when I think of my system, it makes me happy rather than stressed because it is not sounding its best. |
Fantastic summation of your 4-year journey. I've got to read this again for sure. You mentioned the Gigafoil. I'm not understanding if you tried it and if you did, is it still in the system or did you find that it was better without it? I'm sure I'll have more questions once I reread this post and hope to continue optimizing my Network as well. BTW, I also found that reversing the direction of the Network cable on my ATT ONT to Router connection brought about a very nice improvement; it was quite clear it needed to be swapped. I too hear the stage open up, really just hear much more resolution with decreased noise floor and resulting greater dynamics and ease. I used Supra Cat8+ but found I have a spare LinkUp 8 that I can try. Will leave the 8+ in for now as I'm really enjoying just how good it all sounds now. |
Hey Will, The recommendations you are getting from @lalitk are solid. I realize you are functionally blind, but if possible, take a look at lalitk's system. It is very dialed in and thought out. Network cables are certainly important in a system. I use the cable he recommended above throughout my system for over a year now, from ONT (optical network terminal) all the way to my N10 streamer. It made the most difference for me from the wall to streamer and from the ONT to the Router. I've not used or demoed any of the $500+ Network cables, but the four sub $100 cables that I've tried including Supra Cat8+, a known hi-value Network cable, were all easily trumped by the LinkUp 8. The LinkUp 8 is of very high quality components and excellent build quality. They make a very significant difference in my system; I've tried them individually at all places in my system, and as they were added you could hear the SQ improve with significantly reduced noise floor, improved dynamics, and increased frequency response top to bottom. At their price point, they are a very good option and a good place to start. I know you mentioned elsewhere that you purchased the Muon Pro system and that Network Acoustics will have a Switch out in June. I've been very tempted to go that route as the Muon Pro is passive (doesn't need a power supply) and I know @grannyring uses this setup. He also has the discontinued NA Rubicon switch and loves the combo. I will be waiting to see what Network Acoustics releases; not sure if it will have the name Rubicon or otherwise. Seems lots of people like the products they manufacture. I am also curious to see what Uptone Audio releases around June as well, having been using their EtherRegen for years. BTW, thanks for the comments on the LDMS server, much appreciated. |
Very interesting read, thanks. BTW, you can find me over on WBF too, I spend a lot more time over there but post little. You can see my system in my sig on WBF if interested. As to the LinkUp 8 cables, I'd work backwards from the Muon Pro cable. I did find that I got the biggest SQ increase from the ONT (optical network terminal - where the fiber enters your house) to the router, and from the streamer back to the wall connection. But for $37 each, I have them in the entire signal path, starting at ONT going to router, then router to A side of an ER, out the B side of the ER to the wall, and then from the wall in the audio room to my N10 streamer. They work great for TV as well. I've been slowly learning about the network side of the equation for some time now and I think this is an exploding part of the industry where big leaps are being made in the digital world. I know my system has made great strides with the changes I've made in cables, Uptone Audio EtherRegen + Paul Hynes LPS, etc. -I will be interested to read about your Muon Pro system and the switch when you get it. I've been deliberating going Hijiri as well. Just need to get a couple other things done first. Lalit speaks highly of them and so does grannyring, and really many others on the Hijiri thread here on Agon. If you've not seen that thread, please go look it up and comment on your experience, I'd appreciate it. Finally, will also be very interested to read about Aries Cerat. |
Thanks for sharing! Very interesting stuff. I understand you spoke about the 'silver plated wire' in anonymity, but I'm not sure who sells Network cables that have this topology, except I am assuming Nordost does. Do you mind sharing what others you found? And I'm also curious how you determined that silver plated wire was better or different than say copper wire or solid silver wire. I believe the different Network cables I've used are copper. Regards |