Network optimization for serious streamers

@singingg 

I am also on ATT fiber with apparently the same two devices, Router + ONT. I had been thinking the iFi Elite would be a good choice but was also thinking about a 2-rail LPS and the Keces was also on my radar (along with the Uptone JS2 twin-rail LPS). Tom over on "Toms Corner" forum on WBF recommended the Keces LPS and likes them a lot. They are also reasonably priced.

About 20 days ago, I changed out the stock ATT-provided Network cable from the ONT to the Router with a 1M Supra Cat8+ I had in a box in the garage and I think I'm liking it better. But I'm also wondering if I lost a bit of resolution. I just need to make myself switch back to the ATT Network cable and listen to see what I like best.

Keep me updated on what you do with your ATT ONT/Router. My next step has been to start researching what people are doing as far as LPS for this part of the system, so great that I found you are currently working on that as well. You can look at my sig for the other items I've changed in my network.

@pokey77 I am glad to be in the loop. Let me know when someone moves forward and what they experienced. Today I tested my Y-splitter and it fit both the router and ONT perfectly. This is the last thing for me to explore in my system. Everything I have explored these last four years in every corner of my system has been a keeper, except for two :

1. I am sticking with my $15 ethernet switch after I upgraded it with the iFi iPower X

2. After the WIFI tweak I removed the optical filter because it was coloring the sound ever so subtly.

As usual I don't know what to expect, but I am pretty sure there will be no going back.

I actually found the cheap iFi X was better than the Uptone JS-2 on the modem/router/wifi hardware. For streamers it was the opposite, the JS-2 was better. This surprised me because a linear power supply always tends to improve things.

But I had never tried lps upgrades on network switch type hardware before.

The contiguous ground is what passes noise down the chain from one component to the next. For the purposes of audiophile streaming this is one ‘performance benefit’ you don’t want.

Truly. Ethernet does not need to be shielded to work thanks to the balanced and twisted cables.  However, shielding is good around audio gear to minimize the chances of other gear picking it up, via audio, digital or power cables. To get any shielding to work you have to have a switch/router designed for shielded cables. Not all are.

The best of both worlds is to use shielded Ethernet which connects upstream to a shielded port, and use an Ethernet isolator downstream. This way the entire cable is EMI/RFI shiielded (both ways) but noise doesn’t drain through your destination switch/device.

Wintry mix today. Let’s do some testing.

I can’t remember where I read this recently, maybe in this thread. No matter.

It was reported that the ethernet cable direction makes a difference. My findings : definitely!!!!!

Test piece : Qobuz stream 16/44.1 : Elliott Carter "Horn Concerto" which is a highly detailed and dramatic work sure to reveal any differences.

First, I reversed cat 8 between ONT and router and a veil was removed!!

Second, I reversed Pangea ethernet between switch and Sonore ultraRendu, and I had it right the first time.

Third, I reversed Pangea between switch and Transporter i5 resulting in severe sonic degradation. Back to the way it was originally.

I don’t have the courage to reverse the 50’ cat 8 running under my floor and suspended with cable ties, but extrapolating from what I heard, I think I got it right(grin).

Three out of four ain’t bad, but that one reversal has taken things to a new level of dynamic freedom and sonic clarity.

@singingg Interesting findings and I look forward to further reported results.

 

 

I'm demoing the Vertere Pulse HB LAN cable in my system right now.

This is the most insane Ethernet cable i've ever heard to date, it completely smoked both Pink Faun and FTA Metis LAN cables in my system.

We're talking a full component upgrade type of performance here.

You guys should take a look at this cable if you can afford it but beware there is no going back once you have heard it.

 

 

@singingg wrote: "It was reported that the ethernet cable direction makes a difference. My findings : definitely!!!!!"

Well thank God my LAN is all fiber optics then.  That would be a complete clusterf**k!  I could switch around the only two copper runs in my setup just for fun.  One is a 6" run from my NUC to a Sonore FMC and the other (1m WW cable) from my EtherRegen to my PS Audio DS DAC Bridge II card.  I would think the WW cable might - or could potentially sound different.

No cable on earth has to be more bi directional than Ethernet.

Data always flows both ways. 

 

I guess it is just human nature that when something new and unexpected gets reported anger, laziness, and opinions on why it cannot be true surface first. Yes ethernet signals flow both ways, but does that mean that one installation is not superior to another? Give that a think.

Take a deep breath and when you are sober, open minded, hearing acutely, bored/curious, walk over to your rack (flashlight recommended) and make one of the easiest changes you will ever make. Pick any convenient ethernet cable and reverse it. IF you hear a difference, work your way through the 2 or 3 other cables you are using one at a time. Yes, one of them may be long and cumbersome. Listen and report back so all may learn.

I am grateful for this new discovery because it gave me a foundation to explore ethernet cabling in my system. Initially I researched out an inexpensive Chinese brand of cat 8 that had excellent published specs and just went with it. When I substituted Pangea cables post switch (Every component in my system has to be best value for the dollar, systematically synergistic, and musical sounding. No budget busting or retirement account draining devices allowed!) I got a nice jump in clarity and left it at that. Now, when I had just removed the optical filter from my network, I had an extra Pangea and decided to try it between my ONT and router.

This involved some work as the cable was short necessitating me moving my router much closer to the ONT. I removed the Ethernet cable whose direction had been determined, with a cable whose direction was not determined. I had to try it both ways and then go back and forth between cables a couple of times, and the Pangea won. The Chinese cable sounds wonderful but just a little smooth and a little less open on the top. This is subtle but clear to me, and the more open cable leads to less fatigue in longer listening sessions.

This suggests that the remaining 50' Chinese cable MAY need to be replaced. I ordered a 20m Supra cat 8 which will arrive on Monday with a return option. As usual, I hope it does not improve my sound, but actually wish that it will. Who doesn't like better sound?

I invite the more perspicacious of this forum to report their findings.  

 

 

@singingg 

You and I have the same internet provider and the same ONT and Router. On 1/28/23 I substituted the stock ATT Network cable between the ONT and Router with Supra Cat8+ and initially it sounded louder and maybe slightly better. But it took a week to start coming around and really didn't seem to settle until 2/8 or 2/9. Results were that it seemed to be quieter, exhibit less distortion, but also seemed to have less resolution. I have hoped that the resolution would return, but I'm not sure it has. So, today I reversed the direction of the Supra 8+ on the ONT/Router. Sounds fairly the same so far after listening for maybe two hours. I'm gonna give it a week and if the resolution still does not return, I'm going to put the stock ATT cable back in. This has taken way too long, but hopefully in one to two weeks I'll know the answer. BTW, I'm a total believer in Network cables, I've tried a few different cables and this cable, Amazon.com: LINKUP - [GHMT & DSX8000 Certified Cat8 Ethernet Patch Cable S/FTP 22AWG Double Shielded Solid Cable | 2000MHz 2GHz 40Gbps | 5th-Gen Ethernet LAN Network 40G Structure Wires |Yellow| 1 M (3.3ft) : Electronics, is a good bit better than the Supra Cat8+ and is also a little cheaper too! I was waiting until I had finally figured this out, but decided to provide an interim report of my findings.

@pokey77 thanks for the input. I was hoping for a slam dunk with the supra. I am going from router to switch. Any forward motion with the power supplies? 

@pokey77  I just ordered the Linkup. I will have 3 cables to compare and return the other. Thanks again!

Early next week I will have results of an ethernet cable shootout. All four cables will be 15 to 20m. I am doing this because I have a sound problem that needs to be solved. Besides the inclination, I have the time to do this. More on that later.

What I would like to solicit, does anyone know of an ethernet cable 15m+ that has silver plated copper conductors? I imagine such a cable might solve my problem and I have not been able locate one. I hypothesize that my positive results with Pangea cables is because of the wire that they use. The longest cable they offer is 5m. I will contact them to see if they will make one to special order.

I will also be experimenting with ethernet cable direction to see how universal it is. In my research leading up to this task I discovered that all Audioquest ethernet cables have directional arrows on their connectors, for what that is worth. I will never buy their products because I do not want to fall victim to their price gouging strategy (IMHO).

@singingg 

I know another person who bought a 50' run of the Linkup 8 and so far they really like it. All of my Linkup 8 are 3'.

I have not moved forward with buying an LPS as of yet. Really need to do a bit more research.

You mentioned that you have a Y connector for running from the iFi Elite to the ONT and Router. Would you provide me a link to that?

@pokey77 I bought the DC Y adapter from Amazon 4 years ago. The link is not remembered. I searched a long time to get the heaviest AWG 18, 35cm. They are often used in surveillance.

Supra cat8 just arrived and it is still cold off the truck. It is definitely directional and blows my two other cables away. Linkup arriving Mon.

I don't have the iFi elite yet but I am leaning in that direction.

Skipping the out to lunch bits I have just re-read this entire thread and I’m greatful for this and others that have helped take my streaming set up from for lack of a better comparison from iPod like MP3 sound to it’s current no fatigue intoxicating bliss. There’s gold in these posts.. Gold, I tells yah.

Yesterday my wife complained that the whole house system (crud in ceiling that came with the joint) sounded poor and what could I do? That too was music to my ears!

Many know the path. Old mac lap top with a curd cable into an integrated… then a better integrated…then a Lumin T2 w/ an EtherRegen and clock (and that’s good stuff)….then upgraded PSU’s and then a Lumin X1 filtered with the Telegartner M12 SWITCH GOLD and JCat Optimo 3 Duo Power Supply. Then internet cleaned up. Next 18MB internet gone and then fast (but not always) StarLink in use.

I have a whole house stereo and that’s one of two Roon end points. The other being the real stereo. I’m beginning to think @lalitk is right the the SQ is better when not using roon and using the native Lumin App. Too bad the native Lumin app pales when compared to using Roon. Now when just in the listening room I tend not to use Roon.

Two weeks ago I took out my beloved tube integrated (Roger’s KWM-88 Integrated Amplifier modified to use KT170’s) and put in the Lumin amp. The SS (in my set up) was/is simply terrific.  Next to the M12 SWITCH switch that has been the most significant sonic upgrade. Now using fully balanced amp/streamer in dah house.

A lot of gear was picked up used (but new) on AGone which is a great example of synergy. The learning side nicely dovetails with the buying side. Who knew?

Ladies and Gentlemen : the results of

The Great Ethernet Cable Shootout

The contenders :

1. Pangea Premier SE .6m

2. Gigaware cat6 24awg 15m (Radio Shack)

3. Chinese No-name cat8 26awg 15m published specs (Amazon)

4. Linkup cat 8 22awg 15m published specs (Amazon)

5. Supra 8 26awg 20m audiophile claims published specs (ebay)

All cables were individually listening tested for directionality. It was conclusively unanimous, all of the ethernet cables sounded better one way than the other. When installed backwards the principal result was a shrinking of the soundstage. It seemed the longer the cable the more dramatic the effect. Since none of the cables had marked arrows, the chances of correct installation when testing a new cable was 50%, and that is what I achieved. With a little experience I could hear the narrow soundstage in less than a minute. These results are corroborated in Audio Quests ethernet cable literature :

 

Directionality

All audio cables are directional. The correct direction is determined by listening to every batch of metal conductors used in every AudioQuest audio cable. Arrows are clearly marked on the connectors to ensure superior sound quality. For best results, have the arrow pointing in the direction of the flow of music. For example, NAS to Router, Router to Network Player.

 

After I had corrected the reversed cable in my network, and replaced the short Chinese cat8 with Pangea, the sonic improvements led me to suspect the 15m Chinese cat8 as maybe still a remaining bottleneck in my network.

ONT > Pangea > router > WINNER of the Shootout > switch > Pangea > Sonore ultraRendu

A. I installed the Gigaware cat 6 that I used when I first started to experiment with streaming years ago. The sound was horrible. It reduced the sound of $$$$ equipment to the sound of $$ equipment.

B. The Chinese cat8 was good sounding and I could get Qobuz 24/96 tracks to sound like SACD. When after weeks of reading this thread and working on my network I listened to silver discs again, I found a subtle difference which I felt I needed to pursue, leading to this test.

C. The Linkup cat8 is an industrial strength cable, unusually thick and stiff. My initial impression is this is going to need significant break in time. After 24 hours it sounds better but in no way settled. My impression is that it is a system dependent cable. I am pretty sure it will never be the right fit for me.

D. The SLAM-DUNK WINNER is SUPRA 8. When I dropped this into my system the instincts leading to this test were completely justified. Indeed, the Chinese cable was holding the sound hostage. The soundstage opened to new unheard of width and depth. The dynamics were so free and the musicians were so present, I wondered why I could not smell their sweat. I did not think to look at my speakers because it was obvious there was no music was emanating from them!

Upon reflection there is a synergy between the Pangea and Supra, a perfect marriage. Each allow the other complete freedom to do its thing. Since I will never hear a complete loom of either Pangea or Supra, I cannot conjecture what they would sound like. I don’t care, because when you have found the love of your life, you will only confuse yourself or do harm by continuing to play the field.

There are so many other brands/models to choose from. Many of you have your favorites. For me the above setup is a cost effective value-for-performance solution that I have always searched for.

One last thought. It has become obvious that streaming is opening a new sonic frontier. I am hearing a new realism in my room that has exceeded analogue LPs and various iterations of silver discs. I have excellent front ends for each. I think this is due to dynamic freedom. I have limited opportunity to experience this rapidly developing technology. But I am happy to live out my days where I am now, which is where I could never have imagined I would be.

System Repercussion When I bought my Benchmark DAC3B I purchased a Pangea coaxial cable to connect my Esoteric DV50 universal player. This excellent sound was what made me search for the remaining unsolved network problem. The improvement achieved was so profound and truly stunning, when I went back to listen to a CD for enjoyment, I heard something unnatural in the flute obligato behind the baritone soloist. What could that be. There is a three position toggle switch on the face of the Esoteric for filter selection. When I first made the connection to the DAC3B I gave it a cursory flip through. I didn’t notice anything and gave it no more thought. With my hearing to a new place, I toggled from double over-sampling to the FIR filter. Suddenly all was sweet and beautiful. The "princess" had found another pea under the mattress.

In these forums I see discussions on which format sounds better. The true answer is they should all sound equally satisfying even while having their distinct sonic signature. If one format sounds inferior in your system, you have some work to do!

I still have not got a PS for my IPS ONT and router.

Excellent write-up.

The only thing you may want now is an engineer-grade CAT 8 cable.

They never fail. Are inflexible, and shield better than anything else.

@singingg

I may be wrong and way off base but somewhere I remember (or not) cat 6 is a better choice than cat 8?

Are you alone listening or are others sitting in?

@mastering92 @wsrrsw

The only thing I want is it to please myself with musical sound.

The only thing I know is what I heard. I recommend that all do their own due diligence as to what pleases them and works best in their system.

All the listening tests were done alone.

Uhmm.

CAT 8 ethernet cables are backwards compatible with older versions of CAT. Doesn't mean more bandwidth...that is dependent upon your ISP and network settings. Better shielding and never any drop outs unless disconnected from a port. Up to 40 GB/ps bandwidth so way over specced for audio...but why not?!  

I decided to try some upgraded Ethernet cables after reading some of the posts here.  I ordered 3 Pangea SE Ethernet cables to replace my $8 Ethernet cables that go from modem to router, then router to FMC 1 and from FMC 2 to my LHY SW-8 network switch.  I already have a higher level AQ Ethernet cable from the network switch to my music server and decided to leave it in place.  The Pangea SE cables are about 5X the cost of basic cables and are constructed with silver plated Cardas wire.  Why not?  I already have added the fiber optics, upgraded SFPs in the FMCs and bought the audiophile network switch.  So far, I have received just one of the three cables.  One cable came Monday but the other two will not arrive until tomorrow.  So I placed the first cable between the 2nd FMC and the network switch on Monday.

I had a chance at a first listen last night with the first Pangea SE Ethernet cable in place.  So it had about 36 hours of run in time.  First impression was not good.  The music was annoyingly bright.  I thought maybe it is the silver plated wire, perhaps? Not enough run in time?  Then I thought to reverse the cable.  BAM!  The annoying brightness was gone.  My system now sounds right again.  I listened and enjoyed several songs.  I have no conclusion yet if this cable beats the $8 basic Ethernet cable.  I will reserve that judgement until the entire chain consists of the Pangea SE cables.  But I can definitely say that these cables are directional.  

@singingg 

So after reading your comments on Network cable and the ATT Router/ONT cable, I decided to use a spare Supra Cat8+ between the ONT and Router. Once the 8+ was in, the sound was always, but only, a little better than the stock ATT-supplied Network cable. After a few weeks, it didn't seem like it was doing all it should, or to say I didn't really like the sound. So, I reversed the direction of the 8+, and it became more natural and over the course of a week everything sounded as it should be - the sound opened up and the resolution was much greater being extended more on both the bottom and the top, a more realistic presentation. So I have duplicated your experience in the same ATT fiber network location and I'm glad you wrote about it. I've discovered I have a LinkUp 8 cable I can try in that position, but will wait until I'm needing a change, for now I just want to listen to music.

BTW, I found that LinkUp 8 needs a couple of weeks to burn in and settle. Even the Supra Cat8+ I wrote about above took a week to fully settle in once placed in the correct direction, and it already had thousands of hours on it (but had been in a box of cables for a year or two). So you may want to consider trying it again for an extended period. Anyway, enjoy and thanks!

@pokey77 Cool. The directionality thing is just something I stumbled onto by sheer chance. Just one reversed cable and your whole network is off. I hope others are testing their cables.

The Supra 8 just settled into my system and immediately sounded like a million bucks. I have sent the Linkup back for a refund. I am done with cabling!

I will probably cave in and order the iFi elite PS this week. It is the absolute last thing to do in my system. I will report back and let everyone know how it sounds.

@singingg 

Well then, I guess we both stumbled onto the directionality thing by sheer chance. I'm glad I read this thread.

System update. It is sounding sublime - and now the audiophile terms. The noise floor has dropped considerably and so you can really hear things not just more clearly, but more fully. There is better separation of the instruments and the background. With the reduced noise, there are significantly greater dynamics and a more complete and holographic sound. I was fairly sure that changing the cable that connects the AT&T ONT to the router would bring a decent change, but wow, it is a very substantial change indeed, and I'm loving it. I'm kind of wary about any more changes for a while as I've been through some weeks now with subpar sound quality. I'm so glad to be at this point now and when I think of my system, it makes me happy rather than stressed because it is not sounding its best.

Sorry I jumped to the end here without reading everything - how can I improve (tidy) up my networking to improve sound quality in this context:

Now I have done ’some’ tidying up but where further do I go - with the caveat that I must use Wi-Fi but fortunately Wi-Fi is an OK connection for an Auralic G1 streamer?

So far this is my ’networking’ setup:

ISP router >> ASUS RT-AC86U router configured as an AP >> wireless to the Auralic G1.

Note I have turned off all wireless activity in the ISP router (something mentioned here to reduce noise) - so the ASUS is the wireless work-horse.

The ASUS RT-AC86U was a recommended router on Auralics website.

I have access to Cisco and Meraki equipment plus SFPs from work - but would it be necessary in the above config (it might be to clear and reclock the signal further downstream I don’t know).

Comments very welcome and of course relevant to this post.

Has anyone got any advice out there based on my system setup above ?

I recently bought 3 Pangea SE Ethernet cables to see how they would compare to the basic $8 CAT7 Ethernet cables that I had running from my Modem-Router-(FMC1-Optical Cable-FMC2)-LHY Network switch.  From the network switch to my music server I already have an AQ Cinnamon Ethernet cable and so I left it alone.

I ordered the 3 Pangea SE Ethernet cables at the same time but they arrived one at a time over a 10 day period.  The newest cable now has about a week of run in time so I am ready to make a conclusion.  You can see my system on my system page.  It is a very resolving system and my hearing is still very good.

After using all Pangea SE Ethernet cables (with the exception of the AQ cable to the music server) in my system for a week I find that they make a contribution to the sound by improving the clarity and resolution just a bit.  I detect no difference in tonal balance- once the Pangea cables were broken in, as compared to the basic $8 cables.  When I put one $8 Ethernet cable back in the system, I noticed the loss of clarity right away.  I played a few different songs and I am confident I would be able to identify the Pangea SE ethernet cable.  I know, this seems crazy what an Ethernet cable can do to the sound.  A couple of years ago I would never have believed it myself.

I found that the Pangea Ethernet cables sounded harsh- the highs were not good when first installed new into the system.  Direction didn't matter as they sounded harsh either way.  But after about 36 hours of run in the cables sounded good and I found correct orientation of the cable easily discernible to hear.  Beyond that 36 hours of run in time I could hear no additional changes in the sound of the cables.

Overall I feel the cables are a good purchase.  They are about 6X the cost of basic CAT 7 Ethernet cables but are a good value if they can make a difference in your system.

@singingg 

Fantastic summation of your 4-year journey. I've got to read this again for sure.

You mentioned the Gigafoil. I'm not understanding if you tried it and if you did, is it still in the system or did you find that it was better without it?

I'm sure I'll have more questions once I reread this post and hope to continue optimizing my Network as well.

BTW, I also found that reversing the direction of the Network cable on my ATT ONT to Router connection brought about a very nice improvement; it was quite clear it needed to be swapped. I too hear the stage open up, really just hear much more resolution with decreased noise floor and resulting greater dynamics and ease. I used Supra Cat8+ but found I have a spare LinkUp 8 that I can try. Will leave the 8+ in for now as I'm really enjoying just how good it all sounds now.

@tonywinga thanks for your sharing the results of your tests. Very helpful!

@pokey77  I never tried the GF as I was just starting out and wasn't ready to spend big bucks. Make sure to upgrade ONT and router PS!

@singingg 

You're research has been extremely helpful!

Is there a way to determine directionality with ethernet cables other than trial and error listening tests?

Thanks,

JD

 

@upshift  Trust the ears. Listening comprehension is a life-time journey. Eventually all manufacturers will do it for us. Don't hold your breath.

@thieliste Vertere HB is out of this world if you can get it to mesh with your analog cables. 

It does things no other ethernet cable I’ve tried can do.

@macdude My analog are all Cardas Clear Beyond.

I'm getting a Vertere Pulse HB LAN cable very soon.

“It does things no other ethernet cable I’ve tried can do.”
@macdude

Would you please elaborate on things you’ve heard through Vertere HB? What other ethernet cables you’ve tried in your system?

I want to share a network upgrade in sound quality that has me smiling. I have used the Network Acoustics streaming cables and filters since that were offered several years ago. Network Acoustics is really doing some great things for streaming audio sound quality. I just upgraded to their newer Muon Pro streaming cables and filter. I was not sure the sound quality improvement over the standard Muon would be worth it for me. I learned it is and here are some improvements I hear in my music streaming.

My wife and I immediately heard the music fill in much more between the speakers. I did not expect that, but it was easily heard. We also enjoyed even greater realism of voice and instrument. Voices were now connected with bodies increasing the realism of vocals wonderfully. More “stuff” was removed from the signal helping us hear further into recordings. Smearing or blurring of instruments seemed to vanish as we could hear separate instrumental lines previously masked or even hidden. Yes, resolution was improved nicely, but the tonality remained natural and not presented as hyper detailed. Nice!

I own the Innuos Zenith 3 and found this upgrade impacted sonics more than the PhoenixUSB Reclocker and Ideon 3R Master Time Black Star units I had and sold. I placed the Muon Pro filter before my Network Acoustics Rubicon switch finding this position ideal in my system. I had always placed the NA filters after the switch in the past, but this time before the switch was preferred a tad.

 

@lalitk I’ve tried many ethernet cables. Pink Faun, Audience Hidden Treasure, Shunyata Alpha, Entreq, Network Acoustics Muon, and others.

Vertere HB is a very analog sounding ethernet cable and is in a league of its own. It has less harshness/abrasiveness than other ethernet cables.

If you have transparent speaker cables, they will reveal any noise in your streaming setup. There is where I find Vertere HB to be superior to other ethernet cables.

So to answer your question, this cable allows you to relax and your shoulders to sag because of things you don't hear - mainly noise.

@macdude how can a ethernet cable be analog sounding and reveal any noise in the streaming setup at the same time ? Analog sounding cables tend to reduce noise in the system, whereas a transparent sounding cables tend to reveal weakness in the system.

 

@debjit_g To clarify, what you said is what I meant to say.

Vertere HB ethernet reduces noise and is analog sounding.

Very transparent speaker cables will reveal any noise in your system or streaming setup.

I personally find there are many places where noise can be injected in a streaming setup.