If I had fiber ISP I'd at least try optimized fiber setup pre streamer vs ethernet conversion, who knows what my new Finisar transceivers bring to the table.
@bruce19 Missed your post on ambient noise levels. And yes, this has long been concern of mine, even started thread on this some time ago. I only listen evenings when ambient noise levels lower vs day, besides I have other activities for daytime. Anyway, daytime ambient noise levels are typically in 40 to 50db, at night they more typically in 30's, can drop down as low as high 20's. I turn off most noise makers in house, including refrigerator, kitchen adjoins listening room, storm windows down in winter, little traffic or wind noise outside is prime. So yeah, ambient noise level is absolutely critical for detecting lowest noise floors from our audio systems!
Also, for those attempting the two router setup, my original router which became my secondary router was already set up for network access, therefore, when used as secondary or whole house wifi router, all my wifi devices still saw that network connection point, manually clicked on it, voila, instant internet access. Believe I had to reboot some devices. Also to eliminate IP address conflicts I reserved/assigned IP addresses to my audio network devices, therefore, streamer, NAS and Sonore OpticalRendu, also this for my RS7000 or secondary router.
I understand there has been some conversation about jitter and it's impact on networks and/or our ability to hear it. I will have to admit that some part of what I'm hearing as more analog presentation may be due in part to burn in of various devices and parts more recently installed. This includes Duelund Cast coupling caps in 300B amps, JCAT Optimo S ATX linear power supply for custom streamer, tons of parts to burn in for 3 rail, 30amp capable power supply, and perhaps to lesser extent, the OpticalModule. No doubt some of the blooming lends itself to perception of more analog like presentation. Still, I hear and have heard improvements in flow and timing over the years with network upgrades, so this implies jitter may impact sound quality.
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@ghdprentice I agree streamer is most important component in streaming chain. But all of our audio systems are built from a chain of components, weak links are weak links, a magical amp can't repair the wounds of a lesser preamp, source, listening room, AC. In order to reach full potential of any link further downstream, all links upstream must be optimal. Streaming works in exactly same manner.
Besides, vast majority of these upgrades cost far, far less than quality streamer. Hell, I've spent more just on power supply for my streamer than all my upgrades pre streamer. It seems totally illogical to me to assume a quality streamer will somehow get back information lost in miasma of noise produced by network components, cabling upstream. I've gone back and forth on network upgrades in past, therefore, remove the upgrade in order to go back to previous setup, testing new variable, all upgrades I listed were heard as increased resolution. My new streamer added JCAT Net XE ethernet filter, clock, JCAT Femto Net and network feed direct to motherboard ethernet port not nearly as good. This illustrates that network upgrades can still affect high end streamers. In fact I'd posit, these network upgrades will more greatly affect the highest resolving top end streamers.
There is nothing other than the network ports in any streamer that has any affect on networks. Network issues need to be addressed by network equipment. Now, if one believes networks have no affect on streaming performance this is all blathering. I'd only suggest one experience some of these upgrades before writing them off as worthless.
I've also been contemplating the impact of ISP quality itself in relation to streaming sound quality. My upgrade from 300mg to 500mg partially tested for this, required modem upgrade somewhat blunted full value of testing for this. So, was improvement I heard due to modem change, speed change or a litttle of both? I'd also make an analogy to AC delivery to our homes. Some claim we can't do anything about AC quality as 99% of the path AC takes is beyond our control, outside the house. Yet it seems AC power cords, conditioners, receptacles, fuses, blah, blah, blah make a difference, this all seems commonly accepted. How does the same not apply to our networks? I understand one may not believe in any of this, AC or network, sad, but at least consistent.
By the way, I agree with grannyring, fuses change sound quality to some extent. But then I hear differences in capacitors, resistors and other parts. I know we're both parts modders so very attuned to these things in sense we have experience listening for small changes.
Again, no attempts to sell big buck items here, I'm not advocating for audiophile network switches, although not writing them off as contributor for upgrading networks, plenty claims for their effectiveness. I'm one of those people who give benefit of doubt to those who claim benefits from all sorts of devices, whether I'm going to go out and purchase is another thing. I don't write anything off until I've tried and found it of no benefit. Even then I may just write it off as not being compatible with my particular setup. Keeping open mind in regard to all things audio has worked well for me, sure there's snake oil, and emotions may lead to hyperbole, one learns to read between the lines over time. Theoreticals are one thing, experience another, sometimes the two don't correlate. There's been any number of suggestions for upgrades on the upgrades I've suggested here, I"m totally open to them, probably try at some point.
In listening to many individuals over many years, things like upgrades, tweaks are one man's burden another man's chance to experiment. I'm in latter camp.
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I doubt very much that hardware compatibility issue, like to see what ISP they're using. With 500mb speed, actually typically around 550 at router absolutely no issues. At some point I may decide to experiment with 1gb, see what that brings to table.
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If jitter didn't exist on networks,it wouldn't be detectable by measuring devices. The question is at what level is jitter heard, some may theorize there is a certain level.
Jitter is extremely important for precision manufacturing with computers, for various measurement devices where precision needed, gaming, and music streaming it seems. Manufacturing and measuring industries are leading on addressing jitter and latency over networks. Music streaming way behind in concern for this, many assume any old network fine as long as no drop outs.
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@j_andrews You need to connect router to modem, routers supply needed IP addresses for network components, switches don't supply IP addresses. What many do is have switch connected to router, switch connects to the audio streaming components. Most do this as they have need to connect more ethernet devices than available ethernet ports on router. Some also use audiophile switches to act as a filter and clocking device for their audio streaming components. This doesn't negate the contamination of router further up chain.
In nearly all cases one would need second router in order to supply IP addresses and/or the needed wifi signal to all other network devices in house.
There exist managed routers without wifi capability that can then be connected to wifi capable router, these require much deeper knowledge of networking to configure in this manner.
Bottom line is any router in chain of audio network needs optimization referred to in OP. The second router feeding house doesn't need any optimization.
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One thing I neglected to mention. Some claim telephony creates noise in modems, in other words phone service connected to modem results in diminished sound quality. I have phone plan with my Spectrum service, did not activate phone service in new modem, can't say if this has any bearing on my sound quality. ISP supposedly offer phone only modems if one needs the phone service.
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In my case coax cable was already long enough to bring close to audio setup. Assume there would be some losses via coupler, enough to discern in regard to sound quality?
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For the naysayers. the whole point of this is the listening! Why I started post with serious streamers, if streaming only for convenience or background who cares. If, on the other hand you want streaming sound quality to be your one and only reference quality source and/or compete with best vinyl setups this all matters.
Go over to audiophilestyle and whatsbest forums and you'll find streamers taking far more extensive measures to minimize noise, jitter. Some of these streamers have best of best setups, including Taiko Extremes, Wadax, not to mention their extreme high end non streaming portions. These are valid experiences vs those with NO experience with network optimizations.
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@arafiq Since I'm well acquainted with Netgear interface and already have 12V lps Netgear XR1000 was my choice. The second router feeding house wifi can be any old cheap thing, in my case already had Netgear RS7000 which serves the purpose.
In any case, these are relatively cheap streaming upgrades, some totally free or less costly than what one may be using at present. For instance, @mournbladeiv mentioned issue of coax vs ethernet, lengthening my coax, minimizing ethernet was extremely effective in lowering noise floor in my setup.
I've tried a number of far more expensive 'upgrades' further downstream, none made as much difference as getting modem, router issues squared away. Linn philosophy of first link in chain being the most important, in this case makes total sense since many using really noisy solutions early in chain.
Still waiting for my idea of choice solution for routing. This would be managed router with plug n play instructions for integrating into audio systems and off loading wifi for rest of house. This router would also have first rate power supplies, filtering and clocking. Why one hasn't been developed is beyond me. Perhaps no market up to now as people assume present early chain setups sufficient.
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@yyzsantabarbara I've never used the Etherregen so have no opinion. I will soon be experimenting with Finisar FTLX1475D33BTL optical transceivers in OpticalModule and Optical Rendu. Again, measure lower in jitter vs garden variety transceivers. These seem hard to get these days, most outlets have no stock. The few that do are charging arm and leg, I've seen $300 apiece . I came by these and custom build Owens Corning optical cable at After Dark. I'll be experimenting with these downstream side of my custom build streamer. Based on research I've undertaken, these transceivers will work with SGC equipment. Seem to remember someone trying with EtherRegen, can't recall outcome, also questionable if it would work with your dac.
In general terms I can't say improvements I'm hearing are mostly jitter or lower noise floor. Most noticeable improvement has been lower noise floor with these optimizations. I'm assuming jitter is issue based on more analog like sound quality I've attained. Ed Meitner of EMM claims jitter heard as smaller sound stage and more nervous quality, or what most interpret as digititus. A large measure of improvement in digital components has been due to ever increasing immunity to jitter. The question is at what level does jitter cease to be perceived by humans. Are excellent or A+ grades for ping time as good as its gets, or are there perceptible differences within these grading levels?
@classdstreamer I'm aware of the Ubiquity products, some claim using them in series provides even greater benefits. I do have an enterprise level router sans wifi in house, MikroTik CCR1036=8G-2S. integrating this into system will come in time.
No doubt fiber may be good solution, I've preferred ethernet over fiber pre server, fiber post streamer. This preference has continued, whether this is due to superiority of usb rendering via OpticalRendu vs motherboard usb in streamer is the question. When I install JCAT usb XE in streamer I'll determine whether any optical remains in my setup.
Again, all the above upgrades can be done with little financial outlay vs. the huge amount some of us spend on streamers, dacs, rest of system. People can determine for themselves whether these upgrades effective or not. The consumer grade products are both less costly and simpler for those without great knowledge of networking, good place to start.
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@steakster That defeats the whole purpose of eliminating the wifi,rfi noise. I don't see why you'd have issues with swapping as long as you don't have conflicting ip addresses, this shouldn't affect the firmware unless you manually make changes to it. The other issue I see with your setup is modem and router are in laundry room, unless your audio system is in laundry room you're running long ethernet cable to system, not good!
For everyone, the only issue is one has to have internet access setup on both machines. I did this by having original router as access point, when I changed it to secondary router, this original access point was available to all devices connected to it. I had to manually connect first time, set for auto connect, no issues at all.
The primary router will see secondary router as unidentified device, doesn't know its router. I reserved/assigned IP address to this router so there would continue to be static or consistent communication between that router and wifi or ethernet connected devices. What this does is mirror image of primary routers, for instance primary router always assigned 192.168.1.1 by ISP, for instance one could assign 192.168.1.10 or some other last number in sequence as long as that address doesn't conflict with another reserved or dynamically assigned IP address. I like all my audio devices and secondary router connected to primary router to have reserved IP address, the secondary router can assign dynamically.
@fthompson251 I predict you can do much better, I see no benefit of two cheap switches, or even a single switch vs optimized router direct into streamer. I tried a $1K audiophile switch, nice lps and oxco clock, result was diminished sound vs optimized router. Cheap routers only have lousy power supply, lots of noise, poor clocking, jitter, at least an audiophile switch improves greatly on this. I do see a possible benefit with audiphile switch used as ethernet filter, still, I'd get only the filter, lets say Network Acoustics Muon and forget about the switch. Yours is another setup that would benefit greatly from much shorter ethernet cable.
@agirard I don't see having an issue with that router. My routers both Netgear, assume different brand routers would work together, don't see why not. Again, the only possible issue I can see is having devices connected to secondary router not seeing it as internet access point if it wasn't used as access point previously. Doubt it would show up in list of possible internet access points, not hundred percent sure about this, but I didn't see any new access point that would conform to secondary router, the original named access point was on list.
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@dinov I've tried this both pre and post server, continue to use post server with OpticalModule and OpticalRendu. Pre server found optical conversion inferior to ethernet, this with generic FMC, both powered via lps. No doubt low noise floor with the FMC, but slightly thinner, less analog like sound quality vs present ethernet setup. With two OpticalModule with stock or upgraded Finisar transceivers the equation may change. Its likely I'll try this at some point, but certainly possible to achieve very nice outcome with FMC pre streamer. The other possibility is router with optical out capability with a single OpticalModule.
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@singingg This limitation is known, any number of manufacturers offer usb without the 5v power cable. The other method for regular usb is to tape over the 5v power leg within the connector. Some dacs require the 5v power, some need it for handshake, for the rest tape or purchase usb cable minus the power leg.
The wifi is absolutely creating noise, whole point of isolating wifi to second router. As pointed out in an earlier post, another scheme being used is the managed router, popular move is the Ubiquity router. If one really wants to get into weeds on going down this path, whatsbestforum has in depth threads speaking to this. Keep in mind managed routers not exactly for the novice, requires some knowledge of how networks operate.
The issue with quality ethernet cable is not so much with the cable itself, assuming one is using CAT7, rather it is the connectors where RFI enters. Rich Truss of Network Acoustics, John Swenson of Uptone are just two of many experts who've reported on this. This leakage is why users of optical devices and cables and/or ethernet filters such as the NA Muon report positive results.
The issue with filters and such is you're ONLY CLEANING up corruption/noise further up chain. Point of this entire thread is to try to AVOID the need to CLEAN up that noise, this is only band aid covering up the wound. YOU CAN'T GET BACK WHATS BEEN LOST PRIOR IN CHAIN! Any noise corrupting the signal is lost information/resolution. Assuming one's system and streaming is sufficiently resolving I guarantee these optimizations will lower one's noise floor to level easily heard. I began with a number of these upgrades years ago when my streaming setup was far more modest. I was using modified Mac Minis, variety of usb filters and Auralic Vega when I moved modem close to audio system, replacing 25' of ethernet with coax. I was amazed by the lowered noise floor even with this more modest system, another great benefit is cost of this virtually nothing.
The fact is add all these upgrades together, you'll never find a greater bargain in high end audio, this is like crossing all the T's, dotting all the I's, tidy up your network! Spending thousands, tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands and having crap network is absolutely ridiculous. People spend so much time researching equipment, can't understand so little attention paid to network.
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@wvbossfan Some good info here, will have to check into this!
@singingg I believe running that 50' of cat 8 less than optimal on a number of counts. One is there is possible loss of signal with that long of run of ethernet. two, I believe Cat 8 grounded at both ends (cat 7 best for shielding), any noise riding on grounds is riding directly into next component in chain, three, part of the improvement from moving modem near system is it makes higher quality ethernet cabling affordable. I know some don't believe ethernet cabling doesn't make a difference, I and many others beg to differ. I've used generic cat 6,7, Supra, and a number of varieties of AudioQuest. Presently use AQ Vodka, made a sound qualitative difference for me, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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An easy way to test with wifi disabled is to have music player control or remote app on laptop, get usb to ethernet adapter, now have hard wired laptop. Vast majority of Android devices won't work with ethernet as most Android OS don't support ethernet.
I had also heard many cat 7 ethernet cables manufactured with ground connected at only one end, assumed this for all cat 7. Seems this not true. In any case the purpose of minimizing noise at every single link in streaming chain remains critical. Any noise, whether internally generated or picked up by ethernet cable needs to be minimized, to think we can eliminate it entirely is a fools errand. Extending coax vs long ethernet takes care of the noise issue at that point in chain, very important step.
In regard to comparing ethernet vs wifi vs optical. Noise equation comes down to wifi and optical total galvanic isolation, obviously no noise transferred component to component, ethernet may or may not transfer via grounds, and then rfi entering via connectors. So ethernet may lose a bit here, but think about self generated noise, wifi certainly high noise, you've lost some resolution at very first link in chain. Sure, wifi signal may be strong enough for no drop outs, but noise is loss of resolution no matter where generated. Plus likely there may be advantages via ISP, ethernet service may be inherently lower noise vs wifi. Ethernet vs optical advantages may be more difficult to discern, optical devices may or may not generate more self noise than ethernet, obviously optical cables less noisy than ethernet. Still far more ethernet equipment available, switches, filters, clocking to maximize ethernet jitter, noise performance. The only optical upgrades I"m aware of is the Sonore equipment, specifically the OpticalModule with it's superior power supply, filtering, clocking, which can then further be upgraded with the Finisar and/or Cisco optical transceivers. I'd like to see a fully optimized ethernet network faceoff against the optical. I'm not far off here, just need to acquire two more OpticalModules and Finisar transceivers.
@yyzsantabarbara USB vs SPDIF superiority is totally conditional on both streamer and dac optimization of these ports. Theoretically, best rendering scheme would be optimized port on streamer going to optimized port on dac. Very few streamers and dacs provide optimized usb, assume it most difficult rendering scheme to optimize since it has greatest inherent liabilities. Not difficult to determine optimized rendering ports in streamers and dacs, manufacturer will state something to the effect of dedicated power supply, filtering and clocking for the rendering port, in dacs this will generally be XMOS or Amanero usb boards, in streamers proprietary boards. Lacking optimized ports in many streamers and dacs finding preferred port is crap shoot. Generally, not as difficult to find optimized ports in dacs, our 005 usb ports being one example, finding optimized usb rendering in streamers far more rare, usually one of the SPDIF ports or possibly I2S will be best port to use. Whatever the case, certainly may be worthwhile to experiment with all ports.
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As a followup to importance of these upgrade and impact in my setup. I'd put extending coax vs long ethernet to modem, and lps on router as the big two. These two easily made the greatest impact, and were easily heard even when entire audio system was less resolving. All other upgrades were more incremental in nature, taking them all together was certainly large upgrade, but taking each individually not as impressive as the two biggies. Still all are worthwhile even if one has less resolving system at present. They should positively impact any system and as one upgrades overall system, you can have assurance network is up to snuff.
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Great to see the variety of network schemes working well for people, keep them coming!
Jitter induced by or passed through networks seems to be somewhat contentious issue, some claim ping time only consideration beyond what streamers, dacs can affect.
It seems logical any shielded ethernet cable would be grounded at both ends. In any case ethernet more susceptible to noise than optical yet optical not always favored, points to other factors involved here, I really need to experiment with the two OpticalModules with Finisar transceivers route or the optical capable router with a single OpticalModule route. The one issue is transceiver would have to be removable and compatible with the Finisar in router, no guarantee for compatibility except for the Sonore equipment, reportedly works, we'll see when I install the Finisars this week.
Back to contentious issue of jitter and network equipment. There is individual over on whatsbestforum who's measured jitter on various modems, not all the same. Jitter measurements for various optical transceivers is also published can't quite remember where, perhaps audiophilestyle, Finisar or Afterdark websites, again variable measurements.
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So, deniers and skeptics enter here, to be expected. I can only say,everyone needs to experience sound quality different network optimizations bring to the table. I'm no network expert, only collated knowledge and experience from other individuals who've found these techniques/equipment to be of positive benefit, I experienced that same positive benefit.
The so called 'experts' don't all agree on what network optimizations work or don't work, so don't let a few naysayers affect you're willingness to experiment. Everyone should do their own due diligence, plenty of info out there on Audiostyle and whatsbest forums if one needs 'expert' advice. LISTENING is also part of that due diligence! Man, if I believed what naysayers spoke I'd still be listening with all generic cabling, no AC mods, only stock footers, components on carpet or bricks or whatever, streaming direct off general purpose computer, and blah, blah, blah.
Someone really needs to offer audiophiles double blind test with exact same lineup of major equipment, one modded and tuned, other with no optimization. Which system wins this shootout? All I know is that I've benefit tested much equipment/variables over the years, new variable goes in and out, try to test one variable at a time. Benefit of new variables is either positive, negative or just different.
To write off experiential learning as victim of delusion, expectation bias, in other words, faulty because human senses are faulty is truly sad. Carrying that attitude or baggage seems counter to enjoyment. Personally, I don't give a damn that I'm judged, guess I"m one happy delusional audiophile. I also own plenty of material items that many could find fault with, ie. not objectively best in that particular category, guess I shouldn't be enjoying them. One can either think for themselves, read trusting in their own sense of enjoyment, or they can choose to rely on other's seal of approval before enjoyment allowed.
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He likely brought it up since I mentioned John and some white paper a while back. He finds fault with this white paper, then infers John is not to be trusted as expert. I haven't mentioned a single Uptone product in this thread, so how he came into it is beyond me.
Actually, I'm having hard time finding the charlatans here. Is it the modem, router, ethernet cable, FMC, Optical transceivers, clock, lps, IPS, etc. manufacturers? Is it anyone investigating network optimization? Are there no more known unknowns existent in regard to networks?
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Well, we were going along fine until the usual suspects entered picture. @fredrik222 you continue to mention only John in your attacks, try out Ed Meitner for some elucidation on jitter and clocks.
And so we have the usual, usual argument that what many of us hear is delusional, don't trust your senses, all is snake oil comments. What these people are saying is experiential learning, knowledge is not to be trusted. Their arguments are based on pedantic/reductionist/totalitarian logic, the idea there is this set of 'biblical' facts that are simply irrefutable. There are no more known unknowns, every single fact has been investigated, no point to further investigation, the truth has been arrived at, PERIOD, END OF DISCUSSION. This being the case, we are now considered fools, tools of high end audio industry, and worse, we are now considered heretics. Always notice they love to use the word, 'educate', yes they are the high priests of truth, we need to be educated, or perhaps whipped and bullied into compliance.
And so here we are at Audiogon forum, along with whatsbest and audiophilestyle forums, all homes to those who still believe in experiential learning. We are individuals that HEAR differences, good, bad and indifferent with all kinds of audio equipment. Some of us want to know why we hear those differences and others just enjoy the ride. It is curious why the 'truthbearers' visit these forums. Is it to provoke, laugh, deride, oh forgot, educate.
Now, to give the 'truthbearer' the benefit of the doubt. I can think of three reasons for their 'beliefs'. First is they never heard a system capable of delivering sense of real, live performers in room, their own systems compete with or beat the best they've heard so assumption is this is best one can do. Second is they have heard systems superior to their own, but simply live in denial this is so. Denial would come from having heard a system that was tweaked and tuned, since these tweaks and tunes CAN'T work they DON'T work. Third reason would be physically based, the idea not all of our listening senses are equal, the brain/ear complex may be less acute in some people, they can't hear the differences we hear with audio systems. I can relate to this as my visual/brain complex must not be as advanced or acute as some in that I can't differentiate between many of these high end televisions. I've been though a number of them, I can't see much of difference between many models, price tiers, they all kind of look the same to me. I also read these articles that explain how to calibrate for best picture, my choices never correlate to these calibrations! So many more tweaks available, stands, power cords, etc. I have tried any number and can't really see difference.
In any case this is my last post in retort to what I suppose we call 'objectivists'. I quit the cable, power, etc arguments some time ago, this is last for network.
I'm not trying to 'educate' or enlighten anyone, simply suggestions for improving network that may or may not work for people. Others here doing the same thing. We all don't expect everyone's going to find our particular network paths to be supreme, the open minded discover for themselves best path forward. This doesn't bother me in the least, I'm not some guru, I learn far more than I teach. I've done the NO TWEAK, NO TUNE thing, didn't work for me, seems to bother those with need to be the head supremo.
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Ed Meitner is principle at EMM Labs, one of the earliest investigators into jitter and it's affects on sound quality. You'll find his views on EMM Labs website, he also contributes to various forums at times, perhaps you could also communicate via email. He is real believer in clocks and having those clocks situated closest to circuits they're affecting.
Based on Ed and other's, jitter greatly affects both timing/flow and sound staging, Sense of digititus or differentation between analog and digital comes from human's acute sensitivity to jitter, ever vanishing jitter levels are greatly responsible for rather recent experience of digital competing with very highest vinyl setups. Sound staging also major contributor to sense of ease, being able to perceive actual performers in room, hearing deep into recording. More organized and enlarged sound staging much further separates individual performers, allowing us to hear their individual contribution to the whole, much more lifelike! All I can say is after having heard any number of world class vinyl setups from mid 70's-around 2010's, this at audio shows and dealers, I know what top flight vinyl sounds like. To keep it simple world class vinyl reproduction sounds like performers in room, streaming digital is capable of same! Streaming can now be your one and only reference quality source, physical media no longer needed. Just like any reference source care must be taken in setup.
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@jji666 I like the conversation. The only thing I'd add is many of us advocating simply experiential learning and/or enjoyment, not advocating for a certain product or scheme. The idea is simply try it, you may or may not like result, that's perfectly ok. The ideas being propagated here aren't costly or meant to extract money from people, so whats the major harms being done here. Even in cases where individuals promote costly products, I leave it to individuals to provide due diligence in making their choices, plenty of opinions out there, they have free will to choose, doesn't bother me they choose different path, product from me. Whether I believe it waste of money is of no consequence.
Question is why do the experiential learners HAVE to provide evidence/proof for what we hear. We're not advocating for some overarching truth, only providing experiential evidence of what given product/scheme brings to table. We aren't necessarily playing by KNOWN scientific/measurement rules, perhaps the proofs will follow the observations at some later point in time. This is certainly the case with much of scientific inquiry. Many of us are not scientists nor pose as one, we simply want to enjoy high quality sound from our audio systems, its for others to provide the evidence, and again that may not be available in present. Is this reason for us NOT to experiment and/or enjoy what we hear. Are you guys here to tell me I shouldn't enjoy or believe what I'm hearing because I can't provide scientific evidence for why I hear what I hear? Nah, I think I'll just enjoy what I'm hearing from my tweaked and tuned system, performers flying in and/or resurrected from dead to play in my room, WOW!
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@agisthos Yes, this is the common explanation by the knowledgeable, is logical explanation and also explains why many of these products provide benefit. And yes, noise and jitter can and is produced at each link along chain, certainly band aids after the fact can BLOCK that noise from continuing down chain, has done nothing to address that noise, jitter at point of creation, some information permanently lost, some level of jitter affecting flow/timing and sound stage has been permanently introduced. Dacs and streamers with great filtering, clocking can only work with what they've been given, I prefer giving them clean water vs sewer water,
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In general terms I can only say all my consideration/obsessiveness in optimizing network, and previous same level of attention to shelving, footers, AC delivery, room, capacitors, resistors, voltage regulators, internal wiring, inductors, etc. within components, cables, dedicated room treatments and some things I'm sure I'm forgetting has finally resulted in quality of sound I dreamed of attaining since first hearing high end audio in 1970's! Keeping to my overarching mantra that every link in chain is critically important in every single subsystem within the entire audio system is what's gotten me here. No one will ever convince me tuning and tweaking NOT vital to sound quality of the whole. It may sound stupid, but I could make audio system to human body analogy, all subsystems of both need to be healthy for the whole to be healthy, think holistically.
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@fredrik222 You've made your point, until you have new information we understand where you're coming from. Lets no get into repetition of same old, same old. Individuals are now well informed as to your opinions, up to those reading this thread to choose who to believe.
As things stand, I'm interested in the various network solutions others employ and their evaluation of sound quality.
@thieliste So this is evidence the Finisar modules will work with the Sonore equipment. Also, what are your impressions in regard to sound qualities via these transceivers? I've heard Finisar more toward precision, Cisco towards warmth. How do the Finisars differ from one another? I'm going to install the Finisar 1475's this week between OM v2 and OR, also have the AfterDark Ref optical cable for connection between the two. This is the AfterDark Project ClayX Constellation Ref package. One can read about it here, https://www.adark.co/products/copy-of-afterdark-project-clayx-constellation-sfp-module-for-audiophile
This package could also be used between two OpticalModules feeding streamers, I'd consider this to be most extreme optimized optical scheme. Other Finisar or Cisco could also excel.
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@thieliste Does sound change over time with these, in other words is burn in issue? How do all these compare to stock transciever in OM? Like to know what to expect and how sound quality may change over time. Just feel I'm in perfectly neutral position at this point, may not want to deviate too much here. Per usual, I understand won't know until I try.
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Why I mentioned previously, no longer engage in cable arguments.
Intention is at issue, simply presenting experiential evidence or having need for people to agree with you. One exposes psychological processes usurping free and open discussion.
Eventually, this kind of back and forth exhausts people, I've seen any number of valued members leave this site for this very reason. Its fine to argue, its the repetition that's exhausting, make your point once or twice, we get it!
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When threads become bogged down in arguments and are no longer productive they die, people quit following them.
This is intentional act by the provocateur, have need to deny full and open discussion. People want to read threads that constantly and consistently present new information, repetitious and circular arguments don't present new info. These threads replicate what I see in political threads, repeat, repeat, repeat. This thread ruined!
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I should add one could start with HDPlex internal ps allied to external LPS and save substantially over $6K JCAT I went with. The HDPlex route is very nice for a much more reasonable cost. say $1-3K depending on which HDPlex and LPS one chooses. So now talking around $6k or so for very nice build.
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Hope we're back on track! @singingg Thanks for sharing.
I seem to recall reading on some forums that various boutique LAN cables not running ground on both ends, why I mentioned in previous post Cat 7 not always grounded both ends. Even thought that was case with the AQ Vodka?
Back to optical possibilities, I've installed the upgraded Finisar transceivers and AfterDark optical cable between first streamer using in server mode only, to OpticalRendu dedicated streamer. This with Sonore OM as first FMC. Burning in at present, listening later in week. Setup with two Sonore OM with the Finisar installed could also be an optimized optical feed in front of any streamer. This would be rather expensive solution, $1k for two OM, plus lps for both, pair of Finisar 1475 running aprox. min. $200-$300 each these days. This may give even best ethernet setups run for money, or perhaps be superior. I may have to try someday. A router with optical out could work in place of one OM, issue is router may not have removable transceiver and/or operate with Finisar 1475.
The Telegartner optical isolator looks interesting, could be challenger to two box OM solution, don't see price for this.
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@jerryg123 You found good price, no stock at $100 price suppliers. I suspect there was run on these based on some of these audiophile forums.
Just posted the following on another thread. For those who have ethernet ISP and go optical conversion route. So, we have to convert ethernet to optical back to ethernet. For optimum, perhaps supreme scheme, here is following nuts setup, router or switch optimized via LPS, cables, etc> ethernet optimized via something like Acoustic Network Muon> FMC's-two opticalmodules with Finisar or Telegartner unit Latik mentioned ( quality cabling, LPS on both)>ethernet, optimized again via NA Muon>streamer. Crazy! Now, how about two box setup, two streamers, first is server only, second streamer only, the above fully optimized setup on both sides of streamer, now we're really going crazy. Question is would it all be worth it?
I've actually seen individuals doing daisy chain stuff like this over WB and audiophilestyle forums. Claims of being worth it.
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Meant to say 3% on the cores.
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@lalitk I can only say the two prior owners of my streamer, builder and subsequent owner compared my streamer to many of the best plug n play streamers on market, one of the last and best compared to was Aurender W20SE, both preferred this build to that, last comparison was to Taiko Extreme, both purchased Taiko Extrerme. At the time of these comparisons, my streamer was using HDPLex internal swps with a variety of external LPS. Since my purchase I eliminated HDPlex replaced with JCAT Optimo S ATX, this at entire different level vs the HDPLex with any LPS. I've also added JCAT NetXE for ethernet optimization. Both individuals were also using my build with somewhat upgraded Intel motherboard based usb rendering with the Euphony version 4 OS and full proprietary Stylus music player, this player gets high marks from users, preferred to Roon. So, I've compared my streamer in this configuration with the upgraded JCAT power supply to the two box solution with the Sonore equipment running Roon, I greatly prefer the Sonore with Roon to all Stylus, Roon with Stylus endpoint, any HQPlayer configuration I've tried. Now, I still have yet to try optimized usb rendering with custom build via Pink Faun or JCAT USB XE, this could tip balance in favor of custom build running Stylus, all Sonore out of system.
In any case, I'd not deride Sonore equipment, if price is sole determiner of quality, this may not correlate with expectations. There have been a number of reviews of Sonore equipment allied to best streamers on market, the Sonore has competed and/or exceeded these streamers in sq. Michael Lavorgnia of Twittering Machines is one who's found Sonore Signature Rendu a compliment to some of top streamers out there. Sig Rendu is opticalRendu with integrated power supply, I'm running opticalrendu off Uptone JS2, a choke based power supply which may have advantages over any cap based PS. JS2 also powering JCAT NET XE.
In any case, while direct comparisons of my build in my system to top echelon plug n play hasn't been done, I'd put my custom build up against any of the top echelon based on these two individual's comparisons with lesser power supply and usb rendering at time they compared. Towards that end, I will soon compare to one of most extreme custom build streamers, this uses best of best components, every single T crossed, I dotted, this will give greater idea of where my setup stands. And I should explore my nearby audio emporiums for possible demo of top echelon for curiosities sake.
I understand my custom build has no comparative evaluation against top echeon plug n play other than these two individuals, so my testimony as to sound quality is only one man's opinion. This doesn't mean it should be discounted, I do know highest quality sound reproduction via audio systems from listening to audiophile systems since 1970's, some many multiples of $100K.
As for anyone contemplating custom builds based on Windows platform and long and winding road leading to my custom build, audiophilestyle forum is the place. Thread that involves my exact build is contained within a thread with heading starting with ''A Massive Way To Improve'. Thread is probably over 800 pages at this point, path to this build started in 2017.
I understand this forum not much for diy, especially in computer/streamer realm. People in the know are on audiophilestyle and whatsbest forums. There are individuals on these forums driving the entire industry, have much more knowledge than any of us! These are my reference points for computer audio.
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@thieliste That's somewhat worrisome, although could be caused by any number of things. I do have 500gb service with modem/router close to audio system, high quality LAN cables, little or no processing going on with Roon, generally running at less than 35 on only two cores of I9 Intel processor, server barely idling.
Drop outs could be due to many factors, I'll fire up Roon tonight and see if any dropouts. I'm thinking not likely to be Sonore issue since it works at all, likely to be that 1475 requires more precision/optimization from network if network is indeed the issue. It could be your drop out issue more related to OS, music player, processing needs? Perhaps try less processing with music player?
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@cowhorn I went from 300 to 500gb. Yes, I did hear improvement, whether this due to increased speed alone or due to required move to 1gb capable modem in combo I can't say.
@grannyring $3k for internal parts, case and passive cooling packages prices all over the place, $800 for JCAT Net XE, $6k for JCAT Optimo S ATX, also requires another external lps dedicated to JCAT Net board, I'm using Uptone JS2, around $1k. . Each JCAT or Pink Faun PCIE board will cost $800-$1000 each, this includes choice of usb, AES/EBU, I2S. Then you'll need OS, variable price, I went with Euphony, Stylus included, also purchased Roon and HQPlayer. So starting price can be $11k or so, goes up from there. While this build is pretty high end, one can go further these days, innovations come fast and furious with these custom streamer builds, spending limits virtually anything imaginable.
Add to this labor time procuring parts, sometimes difficult to find in stock these days. Choosing which parts to purchase can also be a long slog with a multitude of items like motherboards, RAM, processors, etc, ti choose from. Add assembly and getting OS, music players operational. One wins on parts cost, this level of parts does not exist in any streamer other than Wadax and Taiko, labor hours really add up! If you like building things and enjoy steep learning curves diy custom build right up one's alley. While I didn't build this particular streamer, already planning new build with some of the newer innovations out there. I've been building all my general service tower computers for years, this no more difficult except in procuring some of these boutique parts and determining optimal configurations of multiple things like OS, music players, BIOS.
Getting back to original topic, the more resolving the streamer, the more network upgrades pay off. Every upgrade is magnified, no server above the need for network optimization, in fact just the opposite.
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You're very welcome, would like to see these custom builds get some traction at this forum. Worst part of these builds is procuring the parts, assembling is fun!
@thieliste and others. I've had Finisar 1475's and new optical cable burning in for several hours, all streaming tracks, no local files off NAS purposely, playing for several hours, not a single drop out I've detected. I'm burning in without listening so if there's micro second drop outs may not detecting, but second counter on Roon is showing absolutely no hiccups. Simple plug n play with my Sonore and network, everything exactly as before. Listening for later in week.
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As far as clocks and networks go, clocking in routers and switches, clocks in streamers, clocks in dac. I have upgraded OXCO clocks in everything but router. I don't believe one needs external separate clock if good clocks are contained within the above components. I believe one the reasons some prefer switches to routers or as add ons to networks is the less than optimum clocks in routers. So, I assume clock in new Netgear is not of highest quality, but then measuring ping time with it jitter is non issue, but then this is on input, output jitter unknown. So, in fact this could be weakest jitter link in my entire chain. But then I tried audiophile router in order to bypass this limitation in my other Netgear router, sound quality diminished with addition of this switch with it's superior OXCO clock! And I'm not the only one who's found audiophile switches or any switch to NOT be of any benefit. Reason I now keep it simple, router direct to streamer and NAS. I'd like to try a router with an OXCO clock, this would retain my direct route, add top flight clock. This would tell me if optimized clocks in routers of any benefit.
I'll also reiterate I presume top flight clocking critically important in streamers. The JCAT Net XE board in my streamer goes to great lengths to provide first class network filtering, clocking and maintain dynamics, assuming power supplies on these boards impact dynamics. While I haven't tried the Femto clock version of these boards, the OXCO clock on XE board, based on many reviewers, is far superior to Femto clock version. For non Windows based motherboard streamers, one will have to decipher from manufacturers literature how optimized ethernet port is. I assume vast majority connect directly to motherboard relying on mb power supply and clocking, not optimal way to go. Assume this is why so many derive great benefit from external filters, clocks on LAN lines into streamers.
All the Sonore equipment also attentive to clocking, superior clocking in both OM and OR, no need for external clocking. I did have SOTM SMS 200Neo, this without external clock provision, recall individuals claiming version with external clock provision when used with external clock superior to my version.
For myself, think I prefer optimized clocking within each component. This because it makes more tidy network, and Ed Meitner's contention that external clocking is a joke, effective clocking attained through clocks being placed closest position possible to circuit it's affecting. I believe one can find his thoughts on this on EMM Labs website, or perhaps I read it on audiophilestyle forum?
Can't wait to hear effect of 1475 in Sonore, not sure what to expect, everything so fine tuned now, curious if this upsets apple cart. I wouldn't want voicing to be changed one iota, if things remain neutral while adding resolution/transparency I'll be happy camper. Over the entirety of 16/44 sampling rates it continues to amaze how much the lowly cd quality has to give, would never have believed this much info available from where this started in 1980's. I recall just absolutely terrible sound quality from early digital, just amazing what we've come to! I couldn't care less about up and over sampled streaming or cd rips. Perhaps the 1475 will prove cd quality amazing all over again.
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By the way, @lalitk I've not come to final conclusion as to whether Roon best in two streamer or one streamer setup. My issue has always been less that optimal usb rendering via my primary streamer, someday I'll install JCAT or Pink Faun usb board, I then might prefer a one box setup with Roon. The issue isn't that Roon requires two box setup, rather its MY PARTICULAR setups have preferred it. This is one of the reasons I continue to dwell on usb rendering, or any rendering scheme, I hear greatly diminished sound quality using less than optimized rendering. Rendering is one of the most important functions of streamers, I want every link in chain to be optimized.
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@nonoise Just because you stream doesn't mean you can't purchase music, I still purchase via downloads and/or cd's to rip to NAS.
Streaming doesn't have to be complex, things being done on this thread are for the serious streamer or those with OCD tendencies :) One has to enjoy processes if they expect OCD attention to detail to be worthwhile endeavor, otherwise all this will be perceived as a burden. By the way, streaming has potential to sound much better than playing cd's. I heard this potential way back in day when I was running Mark Levinson ML37, Phillps pro transport with proprietary mounting ol laser mechanism and very nice power supply. Gave up on cd's after far too many laser failures, paying big money for disposable component burned me too many times.
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@nonoise No offense. I still have over 3500 cd's and about that many vinyl album lying all over my house, entire closets used for storage. I continue to maintain vinyl setup, enjoy the unique pleasures of physical media.
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Not sure all aware, but Sonore offers upgraded Finisar on both Sonore and Small Green Computer websites, haven't determined part number.
@jerryg123 Cool, so we'll have two more impressions of these, mine still burning in silently, still no drop outs I can detect.
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@singingg Cool, Charles Ives was part of last weeks listening session, Ives is genius! I've never heard of router with built in lps, assuming they are indeed lps, doubt they're quality lps.
Network upgrades can seem never ending at times. With the insertion of the Finisar 1475 I'm done with the network, even my OCD side can't think of a single thing I can upgrade at this point, this assumes 1475 works out. The only single nit I can think of is better clock and further noise suppression via a fantasy router.
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Don't recall if I mentioned previously, but for gear left on 24/7 I always get lps that can supply more amps than component requires,runs cooler, ensures reliability, longevity. LPS I have on router and NAS have been going 24/7 for years, had one single problem with IEC plastic connector in one getting brittle, a pin became loose, replaced with better quality, no issues since.
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Really, the only 'quality' FMC out there is the OpticalRendu, quality voltage regulation, filtering, clocking. Runs warm, not hot so reliability should be good, hot is enemy of longevity, I'd send back any component that runs hot 24/7, won't last. I do recall conversation about running Uptone and other network devices from lower voltage lps, lets say device can run on anything from 7v-12v, run on 7v for cooler running, max reliability. But then I also recall some claiming these devices sound best when running max voltages. I've run network devices on a variety of voltages, can't say I've heard any noticeable difference in SQ.
So, first listening session with Finisar 1475 in OpticalModule, OpticalRendu, also AfterDark Ref 2m optical cable. First of all absolutely no glitches, drop outs, nothing out of ordinary. On to SQ, sorry if I sound like I'm blathering, but I can only say, WOW! Talk about revealing/resolving/transparency, this set far surpassed my expectations! The lowest level details are now resolved, and the higher level info in mix is more nuanced in that performers have become even more real, breath for singers, technique for all the other instrument, things like use of bow on violins, fingering on guitars, it all becomes more real. Sound stage has even greater precision, size, more organized and individualized performers, greater image dimensionality, each performer within a bubble of 3D air, so natural integration with rest of performers, in other words, no cookie cutter images which is something I've heard with some other network upgrades tried in past. Some think precisely drawn images is a good thing, and symptomatic of best quality clocking. I totally disagree, live performers don't have tightly drawn images, don't want my system reproducing hifi pyrotechnics, I'll take natural sound stage and images any day. Bottom line this level of resolution/transparency is both addicting and revelatory!
Now I come to another important aspect of performance I desire from my source, whether analog or digital, this being timing and/or flow. Analog does this well, digital has a harder time, jitter being the culprit. First few listening hours felt things a bit uptight, not terrible, but not what I had been experiencing with stock transceivers. Also things felt a little closed in, not quite as much spaciousness as before. Over the hours spaciousness was first to come back, by last couple hours greater sense of ease imparted. Presume this burn in issue, symptoms typical of lack of burn in. 24 hours, beginning of session, 30 by end. Final judgment awaits with more burn in, also still in final stages of Duelund Cast coupling capacitors burn in in 300B amps.
Bottom line on these upgrades. This is far more than incremental improvement, rather its meaningful, profound, one of the greatest improvements I've experienced from network upgrades, could turn out to be number one. I also have to take into account this result after having fully optimized every single link in streaming chain, already had extreme level of resolution/transparency, thus, this change magnified by what had come before. Now, on a possible downside, I could see this upgrade as possibly too revealing for systems with ANY prior defect. If one has some undesired coloration this will expose it without mercy. Keep in mind, I'm not fully burned in so I may detect more forgiving nature in time, but I expect this more forgiving nature will come from the flow/timing thing. I don't expect there's any flavor with this upgrade, no warmth added, just purely revealing, not unforgiving, not forgiving, just is.
@thieliste has more experience with various transceivers, perhaps he can offer advice for those who may suspect 1475 may be excessively revealing for their current setup, perhaps the 1318 is better fit. I can only say these modules are like having an entirely new streamer, seems much of OpticalRendu performance hinges on these transceivers!
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@lollipopguild You may be correct, I just seem to recall reading somewhere these devices throw off the unneeded voltage as heat.
I just should also contextualize my impressions of the 1475 as not being used exclusively as network device in my setup, use in streamer may impact sound differently vs use in network only devices. I also have the AffterDark optical cable which undoubtedly has it's own impact.
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@cowhorn Unless your ISP service has capability of offering more than one IP address you can't do this. For most of us we have only one address assigned as 192.168.1.1, can't have two routers assigned this address.
I had forgotten about the fan thing, use them underneath my 845SET amp chassis, 845 tubes are space heaters. Still, seems to me any component that runs hot enough to impact reliability is not correctly engineered. I no longer settle for this as there are plenty of good network devices that don't have this heat issue.
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@cowhorn You pretty much got it. I used to experiment with various rfi shielding materials placed around the router, but with wifi off makes much less sense, not sure it was doing anything other than retaining rfi in router in any case. Also nice to have router that's ping test capable, I know it can be done with computer as stated in some previous post, but for most of us with dedicated music streamers this not possible. The ping test allows one to determine quality of ISP. One may want to upgrade or change ISP if ping test results poor. Much depends on geographic distance to ISP servers, closer is better. Finally, router close to modem, modem and router close to audio system.
Now if some router manufacturer would come out with router with optimized clocking, LPS and wifi off does job of noise suppression.
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@jerryg123 I'd like to see direct face off with this type FMC vs OpticalModule. OM does have both optimized power supply and clocking. I'd also like to see a data base of optical devices these transceivers work or not work with.
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