Network optimization for serious streamers

@sns ​

Shielding :

Cat 7 introduces foil wrap over twisted pairs.

Cat 8 introduces wire mesh over the foil shield over more intensely twisted pairs. This is obviously superior shielding to Cat 6, 6A, 7.

Both cables are grounded at both ends.

@agisthos

So, what are our choices?

1. Unshielded ethernet wire with possible RFI/EMI contamination

2. Shielded ethernet wire with contiguous grounds needing filtering

3. Wifi with potential dropouts

4. Most use a combination : 2) for the music signal, and 3) for playback control, getting the best reliability and convenience.

I am not a technician. This is just my layman’s understanding of what I have been trying to implement in my system.

My current understanding allies with the two camps:

A. We need to get all the "packets" delivered into the buffer to be fed to the DAC. Industry network standards seem to have this well covered.

B. We need to lower the noise floor (because this is where we hear the AUDIBLE GAINS) with multiple routers, optical filters, high quality cables, power supplies, power cables, resonance control and who knows what else.

C. It seems a lot of people have not been able to see these camps as two legs serving the same torso. And the disagreements arise when camp-two-implementations are seen as having no possible effects on camp-one-science. The question ultimately boils down to having your packets delivered pristinely or smeared with mud.

LORD, Bess this post!

@singingg +1. Good post!

On #3, WiFi:

Wifi with potential dropouts

You forgot the potential electric noise the WiFi antenna / transmitter built in the unit may introduce to the unit itself.

This is conundrum that leads to choice of optical. Some info on ethernet cabling-https://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Intro/SQ/GalvanicIsolationEthernet.htm

@singingg Its not a choice between shielded vs unshielded cables. Its whether the ground is contiguous. Some of the cable manufacturers are floating the shields, floating at one end, not using metal RJ45 connectors, e.t.c

Of course doing these things means they are not meeting Cat7/8 spec, but they claim its results in better network audio streaming performance.

@singingg Last night, I was listening to my Benchmark DAC3B with my uber revealing RAAL CA-1a headphones on the RAAL VM-1a tube amp. I normally stream fibre from a Sonore OpticalRendu to the USB of the DAC3B. However, last night I was short of a long fibre cable, so I did something different. I used some fibre to go into my Lumin X1 DAC then stream out by SPDIF to the Benchmark DAC3B SPDIF. I used a WyWire SPDIF cable and that connection from the X1 to the DAC3B seemed to be better sounding than the USB input of the DAC3B with the oR. The USB was also WyWire.

Now I am not convinced that the X1 steaming is better than the opticalRendu. More testing is needed, but past tests had me leaning towards the oR as being a tiny bit more refined.

I am questioning whether the Benchmark DAC3B SPDIF is better sounding than the USB. Need to test this some more.

I prefer the X1 in almost all situations over the DAC3B, except with the VM-1a tube amp (not 100% certain but it does not matter, since DAC3B needs to stay put).

@agisthos I am here to learn. I just finished looking at all the marketing blurbs for ethernet cables at Thecableco.com. Not one boasted floating the shielding and thus reinventing the  Cat specs. One boasted they do not have to twist their pairs, and another boasted that their materials were so above the norm they could not call there cables Cat Ethernet (sigh). Could you please list some cables that float their shields? Thanks

@yyzsantabarbara I think Benchmark would say that all there inputs sound the same. You should call them. They are very gracious about your questions and experiences. My thought revolves back to my discovery of the impact of a separate power wire in the Pangea  USB design. 30 day refund available.

@singingg Drain ground wire only on one end, so as not to pass noise. Melco Audio specialise in audiophile switches, so have hardware experience in this.

There are a few manufacturers who now eschew the use of metal housed RJ45 connectors as used on many high end ethernet cables (such as Nordost), claiming the metal connector touches the ground, and this then exposes the external jacketing to a high frequency skin effect, reducing performance.

Its all black magic but there may be something to this.

@sns I got all setup to do a subjective A-B test to see how much gain there is to be had disabling wireless on the modem router.

When I sat down to do the 2nd half I found I could not connect to my Lindemann streamer with my iPhone app. Cos wireless was disabled. Idiot. =)).

As suggested here I will try the TP-Link Omada as a router with separate wireless access point.

An easy way to test with wifi disabled is to have music player control or remote app on laptop, get usb to ethernet adapter, now have hard wired laptop. Vast majority of Android devices won't work with ethernet as most Android OS don't support ethernet.

I had also heard many cat 7 ethernet cables manufactured with ground connected at only one end, assumed this for all cat 7. Seems this not true. In any case the purpose of minimizing noise at every single link in streaming chain remains critical. Any noise, whether internally generated or picked up by ethernet cable needs to be minimized, to think we can eliminate it entirely is a fools errand. Extending coax vs long ethernet takes care of the noise issue at that point in chain, very important step.

In regard to comparing ethernet vs wifi vs optical. Noise equation comes down to wifi and optical total galvanic isolation, obviously no noise transferred component to component, ethernet may or may not transfer via grounds, and then rfi entering via connectors. So ethernet may lose a bit here, but think about self generated noise, wifi  certainly high noise, you've lost some resolution at very first link in chain. Sure, wifi signal may be strong enough for no drop outs, but noise is loss of resolution no matter where generated. Plus likely there may be advantages via ISP, ethernet service may be inherently lower noise vs wifi. Ethernet vs optical advantages may be more difficult to discern, optical devices may or may not generate more self noise than ethernet, obviously optical cables less noisy than ethernet. Still far more ethernet equipment available, switches, filters, clocking to maximize ethernet jitter, noise performance. The only optical upgrades I"m aware of is the Sonore equipment, specifically the OpticalModule with it's superior power supply, filtering, clocking, which can then further be upgraded with the Finisar and/or Cisco optical transceivers. I'd like to see a fully optimized ethernet network faceoff against the optical. I'm not far off here, just need to acquire two more OpticalModules and Finisar transceivers.

@yyzsantabarbara  USB vs SPDIF superiority is totally conditional on both streamer and dac optimization of these ports. Theoretically, best rendering scheme would be optimized port on streamer going to optimized port on dac. Very few streamers and dacs provide optimized usb, assume it most difficult rendering scheme to optimize since it has greatest inherent liabilities. Not difficult to determine optimized rendering ports in streamers and dacs, manufacturer will state something to the effect of dedicated power supply, filtering and clocking for the rendering port, in dacs this will generally be XMOS or Amanero usb boards, in streamers proprietary boards. Lacking optimized ports in many streamers and dacs finding preferred port is crap shoot. Generally, not as difficult to find optimized ports in dacs, our 005 usb ports being one example, finding optimized usb rendering in streamers far more rare, usually one of the SPDIF ports or possibly I2S will be best port to use. Whatever the case, certainly may be worthwhile to experiment with all ports.

As a followup to importance of these upgrade and impact in my setup. I'd put extending coax vs long ethernet to modem, and lps on router as the big two. These two easily made the greatest impact, and were easily heard even when entire audio system was less resolving. All other upgrades were more incremental in nature, taking them all together was certainly large upgrade, but taking each individually not as impressive as the two biggies. Still all are worthwhile even if one has less resolving system at present. They should positively impact any system and as one upgrades overall system, you can have assurance network is up to snuff.

I wish a manufacturer designed an in house wireless streamer. With the air gap it could theoretically solve all these network noise problems.

But because the only choice is off the shelf wireless solutions they all sound worse than hard wired.

@sns I am going to go with the SPDIF on the Benchmark DAC3B to RAAL VM-1a tube amp. It sounds a bit better to me, and that is what matters.

I am currently testing the i2s on the Musetec 005. I can really do a nice apples-to-apples comparison with GROUPED ROON streams. I think the i2s could be as good as the USB on the 005. The i2s cable is cheap and brand new so it is likely breaking-in.

Last night, I realized that with my 3 existing Sonore OpticalRendu’s and the new Lumin X1 and the Sonore UltraDigital (with SPDIF and i2s). I have 6 ways to stream with fibre as a part of the stream. I think I am going to sell 2 of my OpticaRendu’s if the i2s is good or close to the Musetec 005 USB.

BTW - the Musetec 005 vs Lumin X1 DAC sections come down to a matter of preference. The X1 streamer is excellent. Like the opticalRendu. I am keeping 1 005 and may sell the 2nd 005.

When I was helping a friend setup ROON streaming in his workshop I ordered a 100-foot fibre optical cable from Sonore. The person at Sonore told me that longer cables are actually better for fibre optical. I was asking him if such a long length would degrade performance.

For people requiring such long lengths but still needing Ethernet, why not run the distance in fibre and at the last little bit convert to Ethernet?

I have done quite a bit to optimize my network, but I have to share one tweak that really raised the sonic performance of my streaming and system.   Some have done this and it deserves more attention.  I upgraded the fuses in my Innuos Zenith 3 and LPS powering my switch and modem to SR Purple.  I was not prepared for the level of sonic improvement realized. Easily the best upgrade I have experienced for the money.  Easily.  Stunning is an understatement in my particular system. I cannot think of any single network upgrade, cable, footer etc…. that was as impactful.  Before anyone decides to upgrade a server, please try these Purple fuses.  They do take 24 hours to sound great.  The first 24 hours are no indication of the final result.  
 

Some other network strategies as an option (albeit more adv).  Consider some/all of the network setup similar to components:

- Use a dedicated router for just that purpose and not an all in one (router, switch, wifi etc..)

- use a managed or semi managed switch to setup indiv broadcast networks (VLAN's for IoT, music etc).  These also have fiber capability and thus you can run fiber to listening room.

- use AP's in diff parts of you home for wifi (working in conjunction with the switches)

- Rack all of this into your util room.

I went through this about a yr ago and though a fair amount of work, the benefits were significant.

I have been thinking about how to approach this question for a while. I try to say stuff that is helpful and brings folks together… not start religious wars. But I feel I need to say something.

I think the answer to the question is to buy a great streamer. The issue of getting high quality sound from streaming can effectively be approached two ways. Get a high quality streamer or a low quality streamer and improve the incoming signal.

I know using logic is very hazardous in high end audio, but I have a lot of experience in streaming over the last twenty years… but the biggest increases in sound quality have come from streamer upgrades… but also while I have done EtherRegen… I have not done fancy audiophile grade switches.

Having said that. I would hope any decent streamer (mine do) would cashe incoming files. So, they are basically file transfer and conversion devices. They capture and store a file. This means the speed / latency is not an issue ( it sure isn’t for me. I use Aurender streamers and the work without a hitch, when I can’t get my iPad to refresh a web site). So, optimizing the pipe isn’t what is required. I use wall wart wifi extenders and streaming sound quality is the same as my really good vinyl end). So, the issue is isolation of noise and conversion / retransmission. This is where PCs are not good. The power supplies and internal environment, extrainious activities on the processor, physical vibration.. etc.

So, this is why / where dedicated streamers shine. They put effort and money into power supplies, isolation and conversion. Why quit the entire pipeline when the streamer can do that. Anyway, my experience with streaming points to the most cost effective method of improving streaming is to put your money into the streamer. Not that you cannot ultimately achieve somewhat similar sound quality by fiddling with every aspect of the incoming signal. If fiddling with technology turns you on great (I have been in IT for over 35 years).

Especially since conversion from incoming IP protocol to digital out is a key function… I chose to put my investment in a great streamer. My wall wart wifi extender does produce world class sound.

Some folks l

@ghdprentice Have you considered trying a mesh system instead of an extender? Several people here seem to think it sounds better.  Just thinking could be something to try, and if there’s any improvement it’d be a very cheap upgrade.  Love to hear your thoughts if you ever give it a go. 

I ordered a LHY SW-8 the other day, so will hopefully have another opinion to add soon. It will feed a Lumin U1 with X1 PSU so it should be interesting to see the impact with a higher end streamer already in place. 

Just about everything in here is "audiophile fear mongering"

digital to digital transference is solved.   Gear either works 100% or is broken.   There is no room for subtle quality differences.   You don't need "high quality ethernet cable" - you just need any correct cable.

There is literally no room for subtle improvments in digital to digital transfers.   There is no such thing as an "audiophile network switch" or even an audiophile usb cable.  

@xaxxon perhaps you would benefit from more open minded experiences with gear and tweaks. Audio is a great big world of potential, learning and possibilities.

digital to digital transference is solved.   Gear either works 100% or is broken.

LOL!!!!

@agisthos You have tweaked my interest in trying the Melco C100 cable as the last cable coming out of my second FO converter into my Sonore ultraRendu. When I inserted the Pangea SE here it made the most dramatic difference. This would be the place to test the broken ground shield effectiveness.

I was unable to find one online review of this cable. Have you personally tried it?

I have been unable to find a US distributor after a morning searching. Any leads?

@ghdprentice I agree streamer is most important component in streaming chain. But all of our audio systems are built from a chain of components, weak links are weak links, a magical amp can't repair the wounds of a lesser preamp, source, listening room, AC. In order to reach full potential of any link further downstream, all links upstream must be optimal. Streaming works in exactly same manner.

Besides, vast majority of these upgrades cost far, far less than quality streamer. Hell, I've spent more just on power supply for my streamer than all my upgrades pre streamer. It seems totally illogical to me to assume a quality streamer will somehow get back information lost in miasma of noise produced by network components, cabling upstream. I've gone back and forth on network upgrades in past, therefore, remove the upgrade in order to go back to previous setup, testing new variable, all upgrades I listed were heard as increased resolution. My new streamer added JCAT Net XE ethernet filter, clock, JCAT Femto Net and network feed direct to motherboard ethernet port not nearly as good.  This illustrates that network upgrades can still affect high end streamers. In fact I'd posit, these network upgrades will more greatly affect the highest resolving top end streamers.

There is nothing other than the network ports in any streamer that has any affect on networks. Network issues need to be addressed by network equipment. Now, if one believes networks have no affect on streaming performance this is all blathering. I'd only suggest one experience some of these upgrades before writing them off as worthless.

I've also been contemplating the impact of ISP quality itself in relation to streaming sound quality. My upgrade from 300mg to 500mg partially tested for this, required modem upgrade somewhat blunted full value of testing for this. So, was improvement I heard due to modem change, speed change or a litttle of both? I'd also make an analogy to AC delivery to our homes. Some claim we can't do anything about AC quality as 99% of the path AC takes is beyond our control, outside the house. Yet it seems AC power cords, conditioners, receptacles, fuses, blah, blah, blah make a difference, this all seems commonly accepted. How does the same not apply to our networks? I understand one may not believe in any of this, AC or network, sad, but at least consistent.

By the way, I agree with grannyring, fuses change sound quality to some extent. But then I hear differences in capacitors, resistors and other parts. I know we're both parts modders so very attuned to these things in sense we have experience listening for small changes.

Again, no attempts to sell big buck items here, I'm not advocating for audiophile network switches, although not writing them off as contributor for upgrading networks, plenty claims for their effectiveness. I'm one of those people who give benefit of doubt to those who claim benefits from all sorts of devices, whether I'm going to go out and purchase is another thing. I don't write anything off until I've tried and found it of no benefit. Even then I may just write it off as not being compatible with my particular setup. Keeping open mind in regard to all things audio has worked well for me, sure there's snake oil, and emotions may lead to hyperbole, one learns to read between the lines over time. Theoreticals are one thing, experience another, sometimes the two don't correlate. There's been any number of suggestions for upgrades on the upgrades I've suggested here, I"m totally open to them, probably try at some point.

In listening to many individuals over many years, things like upgrades, tweaks are one man's burden another man's chance to experiment. I'm in latter camp.

Underwoodhifi.com  is a Melco retailer. Give Walt a call he may be able to get you the C100 cable

@singingg I think its so new there is no distribution yet. Melco does have an older model cable that does the same thing. But remember this is just an entry level product.

There is now a huge number of boutique ethernet cable builders doing weird and wonderful things like this to kill noise, with prices into the stratosphere.

@agisthos  Thanks, a boatload, of which I have been able to find not one product after hours of searching. Please list a couple that you have tried. Thanks.

Using a separate modem, and router is a liability ,one less Ethernet cable and power cord, BTW I use Only LPS from my Motorola 8702, which uses Docsis3.1 

I will be upgrading to next technologies within the next year. But by using a decent LPS with uograded fuse not top but decent and a decent Pangea sig14 mk2 power cord ,Everything makes a difference , then 2 sonoreMedia converters Ethernet to fiber optic ,to a Sonore Deluxe  to a Excellent Linear Audio Technologies LPS 

which I have listened to many including Sonore,uptone and several more very well known brands by far the best sounding and 2-3x the capacitance 125k

and a huge 100 Va transformer up to 8 amps for $700 with a very respectable DC cable. Many  people refuse to spend the extra $$ of LPS , and good quality usb ,and Ethernet cables are essential $300 does not cut it  

Not enough.

@sns  I did a little research :

 Cat 7 & Cat 8 require that all equipment and hardware in the system support a contiguous ground, or there will be no performance benefit to Cat 7/Cat 8 over previous standards such as Cat 6.

It is the opinion at Deer Creek Audio that the receiving streaming equipment plays the biggest role in improving the quality of the received digital music stream.

The two primary elements that can make a notable impact are the digital receiver chip and the amount of buffering that occurs in RAM before streaming on to the I2S bus.

In the case of the miniDSP SHD, the first element is the xCORE-200 digital receiver. The xCORE-200 massively over-samples all incoming digital streams and transfers them on to the I2S bus with absolute jitter free certainty. This technology prepares the bitstream for digital signal processing and digital-to-analog conversion.

When streaming from the miniDSP SHD using Volumio, Tidal, etc., the buffer depth and buffer times can be adjusted. We’ve found that generally longer is better.

Please see: https://deercreekaudio.com/tech-blog/f/how-can-something-that-costs-so-little-sound-so-great

Deer Creek Audio is an authorized miniDSP dealer

Ok I got a TP-Link wireless access point today. My setup is a Lindemann Limetree Bridge II streamer - spdif out into Teddy Pardo DAC (with alps blue velvet volume control option).

When turning the wireless off in the modem/router there was a noticeable jump in performance. Previously when just using the normal modem/router, hard wired ethernet into the Lindemann was better but it was subtle- I could live with the wireless connection and not have a 30 foot cable snaking down my hallway (in-wall wiring is coming soon tho). But now with the wireless turned off in the modem, and a wireless access point used instead, I cannot go back.

Kudos to @sns for working this one. I must have read a hundred pages of audiophile switch investigations, with these guys spending 5-10k on switch/clock setups, and I cannot think of a single instance where any attention was paid to the upstream cable modem. Sure put an LPS on it, but that’s about it. The wireless has a bad effect.

And all this just using a standard residential TP-Link modem/router. I have a TP-Link Omada wired router (ER605) on order. Wonder if this will be better.

Great CAT8 and I only have Wi-Fi for computing purposes. Separate network for Audio, All Supra Cat8 through my home with additional RFI/EMI protective loom.

Supra Network Ethernet Cable (madisoundspeakerstore.com)

@agisthos  Exciting thread. Thanks for jumping in first to try this. I shall be doing this soon.

@sns 

Thanks for the sharing all of the information you have accumulated.  My system is digital only and I will be taking your advice.  Fortunately while my music room was torn apart down to the studs and being rewired I ran coax cable as well as ethernet.

So, after I digest your post several more times, I'll be moving in that direction.

Regards,

barts

nosualc commented that they didn't see why jitter would be a problem if the streamer is buffering. I would agree IF the DAC is inside the streamer and using the internal I2S bus. If you are using a separate DAC, particularly with AES/SPDIF, then jitter can again arise between the two boxes.

@grannyring I don't need to be open minded, I understand how it works.

But sigh, it seems there are a LOT of people here who LOVE their snake oil so I'll just leave you guys be.

so I'll just leave you guys be.

Fantastic decision! Thank you

Thank you for coming here to set us ignorant Aphiles straight.  Thank you! 

i go the grandmother route and order those bits and bytes to straighten up and fly right

xaxxon

I don't need to be open minded, I understand how it works.

That would actually be rather amusing if it weren't so sad.

@christianb5s4 I just hooked my LHY-SW8 this morning. So far it hasn’t changed the sound at all but I’ve been told that it can take a few hundred hours of burn in for the ocxo to sound its best. One thing I can say is that this little switch is built like a tank

I have heard some excellent arguments for WiFi due to all the possibilities for noise introduction through Ethernet. Routers and switches are very noisy devices…so if you’re not going to obsess over audiophile Ethernet cable, switches, and routers…WiFi could be a great option…obviously you need a strong signal for this to work. 
 

I also encourage people to have someone else switch between WiFi and Ethernet while you are blindfolded…this can be eye opening 😉

There are some things useful and others not dependent on your setup of course. Length of ethernet is one that matters IMHO. I’ve run a fiber set up in my big monoblocks amp system and it was a nice improvement.

When I recently put in the Wiim Pro, it sounded great too. Then I tested it without the fiber cable, sounded great if not a tad better. So, I removed it and use two short ethernet cables. They are double-shielded and are doing a great job with the Wiim Pro.

Also, I replaced my cable router-modem with an inexpensive Motorola 7550 I got off eBay featuring the Broadcom chip. Have it on LPS and that helps. What helps most in the current update is the Wiim Pro which is also attached to a 5v LPS. The optical fiber is packed up.

My connection tested out great so there’s not much more to add here.

Great to see the variety of network schemes working well for people, keep them coming!

Jitter induced by or passed through  networks seems to be somewhat contentious issue, some claim ping time only consideration beyond what streamers, dacs can affect.

It seems logical any shielded ethernet cable would be grounded at both ends. In any case ethernet more susceptible to  noise than optical yet optical not always favored, points to other factors involved here, I really need to experiment with the two OpticalModules with Finisar transceivers route or the optical capable router with a single OpticalModule route. The one issue is transceiver would have to be removable and compatible with the Finisar in router, no guarantee for compatibility except for the Sonore equipment, reportedly works, we'll see when I install the Finisars this week.

Back to contentious issue of jitter and network equipment. There is individual over on whatsbestforum who's measured jitter on various modems, not all the same. Jitter measurements for various optical transceivers is also published can't quite remember where, perhaps audiophilestyle, Finisar or Afterdark websites, again variable measurements.

@som Always good to go into it with reasonable/rational expectations. I'm not expecting significant improvements, however it can't hurt particularly as the U1 is currently being fed by a cheap, generic router my ISP installed several years ago.

As with many things in this hobby, it'll come down to trying it out!

@xaxxon  the voltage for the 1's and 0's (high voltage low voltage) are analog, the interpretation is digital so noise can cause problems.

@soix

Yes, I have considered mesh… and someday will probably do it. A friend of mine had all sorts of problems with mesh… I don’t want problems. But I have fiddled with different cables and the etherregen into my Aurender W20SE streamer and, in general found no difference. One of the reasons I have concluded it is mostly about the streamer.

Since my really great vinyl system and my streamer sounds the same, I am really happy to take a break from just trying stuff. Typically I reach a plateau and stay there for a number of years. I am there. I think I am correct on my thinking on streamers / vs fiddling with the incoming signal. But, I am just going to enjoy my system for now.

Maybe, I’ll try and prove my theory later. BTW, most of the time I have these partially tested theories, I am correct. Not trying to be egotistical, but having been a scientist since shorty after being born… through really being one through my twenties, and absolutely dedicated to highly ambiguous problem solving through work after grad school for forty years… I feel like I am right on this. But, I have not done all the work required to prove it.

@xaxxon bye bye.

But sigh, it seems there are a LOT of people here who LOVE their snake oil so I'll just leave you guys be.