Network optimization for serious streamers

@jerryg123 of course you think that. He puts up facts that doesn’t work with your world view. But that is a you problem.

no, clocking on Ethernet makes no difference. That thread you just posted was someone testing an Ethernet cable as if it was analog interconnect. 0 relevance to real world. 

@lalitk 

I said it before and say it again…stop taking the bait from the likes of fredrik222. 

They will go away if you don’t engage them.  

I will personally go away when you stop saying everyone needs an Etherregen otherwise streaming sucks and your system isn’t resolving. Since that won’t happen, I guess we are stuck! 

@agisthos as for your experience and knowledge, your post that I have asked several times for some sort of reference, just shows the sad state of the IT profession.

@agirard of course I am sure about it. Look at your comments and how Ethernet, TCP/IP, and streaming protocols work. Your comments are not anchored in reality, hence I asked you to post just one thing that supports your claim. That’s complete dishonesty. You either knew it was untrue, or you made it up on the fly.

as for my dishonesty, he literally said Cat7 cables from AQ and Nordost, if that is not audiophile companies, well, then tell me what is.

But like I also posted, in the end, there was a lot of audible issues, issues that was not attributed at all to Ethernet, which is the point. You can have a lot of noise in your system, but none can be attributed to Ethernet.

@agisthos what’s the difference between your post and mine? People post that exact same statement over and over again, no matter how wrong it is. and it 100% false, which is a difference from my post…

And you are absolutely wrong, it is not my opinion, they are facts, easily measurable too. But this is where it is goes, every time “I can’t defend my statements, so I am going to attack the person”. And then you call people like me trolls.

@thyname from a factual point of view, almost every post except my posts are just pollution, so there is that. But facts are not relevant, right!

@mournbladeiv you need to explain to these non technical people why you need shielding to a certain point or they will go crazy like they always do. 
 

And of course, keep in mind that streaming services is not a continuous stream, is burst traffic downloading the song you want to play and typically the next as fast as possible to a buffer, so jitter isn’t particularly relevant. 

@sns 

do elaborate on this comment, please, especially the last part and how that matters for streaming.

If jitter didn't exist on networks,it wouldn't be detectable by measuring devices. The question is at what level is jitter heard, some may theorize there is a certain level.

 

Jitter is extremely important for precision manufacturing with computers,  for various measurement devices where precision needed, gaming, and music streaming it seems. Manufacturing and measuring industries are leading on addressing jitter and latency over networks. Music streaming way behind in concern for this, many assume any old network fine as long as no drop outs.

@richtruss except, it is not a real thing in home applications. So there is that. 

It is absolutely amazing how much time people can put into a subject and come out on the other knowing less than when they started. Keep calm, stay snake oil.

@sns there is a lot everywhere on the Internet, but I did find a thread on audiophile style where John Swenson of UpTone was absolutely destroyed for making up terms to make his products sounds like they actually do something. So that was fun, and actually accurate. Unlike most posts here and elsewhere. 

Go over to audiophilestyle and whatsbest forums and you'll find streamers taking far more extensive measures to minimize noise, jitter. Some of these streamers have best of best setups, including Taiko Extremes, Wadax, not to mention their extreme high end  non streaming portions. These are valid experiences vs those with NO experience with network optimizations.
 

 

@thyname  yes! Facts are not for the faint of heart! 

@jerryg123 lol, is that what you call it when John Swenson was called out for making up terms to fool people? Sure. 
 

my limited experience with sound engineers, and electrical engineers, is that they don’t believe in snake oil. Why? Simply because the physics doesn’t support the claims made by the likes of John Swenson of UpTone. Add to that made up terms like “high impedance current leakage”, which is just a bunch of words that means nothing. Currents do not have impedance, high or otherwise. 

@sns you and many others buys into what John makes up. That is really a you problem. if you don’t want to actually learn about the technology you are trying to “optimize”, you will only fail. And on top of that, you will believe white papers that people like John publishes. There is almost nothing accurate about that particular white paper. 

still waiting for your elaboration on jitter and how that impacts the sound in a stream into scenario.

@coppy777  so basically you removed all “audiophile” Ethernet products, per dCS recommendation, and your issues went away.

This is a dissection of one Ethernet “audiophile” product: 

@jerryg123

why I try to educate people? Because it helps some. I have received several direct messages saying something along the lines of “thank you, I thought I was going crazy with all these Ethernet “upgrades”. that are supposed to do something, but I can’t hear a difference at all”. Which makes enduring you worth it.

@coppy777  always comes down to that huh? Why? My system is plenty resolving and perfect for my residence.

That’s not the issue you describe, you has a real audible issue that by your own statements none of these “audiophile” Ethernet products did anything to fix, even though that is their claim to fame. That is the issue at large, and my exact point.
 

now your actual issue, if you put a strong radio right next to sensitive equipment, you can expect issues. However, two interesting things, your expensive equipment picked up a tick and a background noise. By moving the Eero away, you proved that the Ethernet components did not introduce the noise, rather, it was picked up directly by the equipment. To me, the ticks would come from the DAC, and the background noise would come from the tubes, just a guess though.

So that was a new video from Hans that I had not seen. But basically he is saying that as long as you stay digital nothing matters, it's only when you go from Digital to Analog that you an introduce issues.

Which is not correct to start with, if you have a bad connection, you will have packet drops, which can lead to issues. 

Second, it implies a fundamental ignorance of Ethernet. Ethernet is 100% digital and it is a point to point protocol. What does that mean? It means that the signal generated only goes between two ports, whatever information is transmitted is read of the wire, not propagated to the next point. So, an incoming port reads what's on the wire, recreates it, checks that it was correct (CRC), and then retransmits it to the next hop. Which means, anything that the wire picked up the form of noise doesn't matter. 

Now to jitter, another fundamental ignorance of how streaming works period. First you need to know that steaming is not a continuous stream when you are playing from for instance QuBuz, it's a download. When you select a song, that song is downloaded immediately, and the next song in your playlist is also downloaded immediately. Very short burst traffic. This download goes into your network player buffer, who in turn queues it for the DAC. 

So, jitter during the download does not matter, to a certain point. What does a certain point mean? It means if you have seconds of jitter, you will cause the overall protocol stack to timeout, and then it dies. But that would be over a really bad satellite link to get into seconds of latency and jitter. 

@sns Don't know who that is, but happy to read and learn, if you have any links. 

Jitter matters a lot in the ADC DAC processes, however, network jitter is not relevant for this. 

@jerryg123 i guess you missed Nordost, AQ and Wireworld? 
 

Doesnt really matter, lots of noise and issue, Ethernet had nothing to do with it. 😂

@agisthos 

Here is my theory that squares things with the network packet objectivists.

The upstream network gear has various high frequency oscillators and pcb design approach that creates noise that rides down the chain via ground, shielding and skin effect from component to component. This noise does not effect data packet transfer, ERC or any of the things the trolls are continuously ranting about.

But that noise will negatively effect the DAC and it’s analog output stage.

This explains why doing things like fibre conversion has such great reported results, because it breaks this noise chain. Also explains why LPS or proper power supply design in custom exotic switches result in sound quality gains at the end of the chain. Again, nothing here is contradicting the network data packet transfer operation, it works fine beneath these other issues. 

But this is measurable. Very easy to do so too! And none of the products do anything at all to eliminate it. That is proven by numerous people, with some focus on EtherRegen, I guess because it's the king of the hill. 

So if you take that away, what else do you have left that these products are supposed to do? Jitter? I already explained why that is not remotely relevant. "High impedance current leakage? Made up term by John Swenson that means nothing. And so on. The technical arguments made by these manufacturers are immediately debunked by people with knowledge. That means something. And as the video I posted from LTT, some products are just pure rip offs as they are literally the same product as a $30 D-Link. (Side note, this was the one Hans was referring to in his latest video).

I do not doubt that many people hear a huge difference, even when nothing is there. But that is psychology, not physics. Similar to listening in the dark vs with the lights on, did sound change? Nope, not at all. Did your brain change its interpretation, for sure. But none of that matters, it is your system, and you need to be happy, but stop pushing $500 ethernet cables on people who are just starting out. 

@agisthos lol. You calling others with knowledge people of “limited theoretical understanding” is hilarious. You posted something that was patently false, proven over and over again. 
 

I can guarantee I know more about Ethernet and the related protocols than you ever will. 

but, since you think you have the theory on your side, prove it. Post 1 thing supporting your statement: “

Here is my theory that squares things with the network packet objectivists.

The upstream network gear has various high frequency oscillators and pcb design approach that creates noise that rides down the chain via ground, shielding and skin effect from component to component. This noise does not effect data packet transfer, ERC or any of the things the trolls are continuously ranting about.

But that noise will negatively effect the DAC and it’s analog output stage.”

@jerryg123 Hans, sure, he can’t argue and bans people who call his mistakes and misconceptions out. Nothing changes. 
 

what you are still missing, and you too @lalitk, there are just things Ethernet cannot do, and than includes improvements to SQ. You don’t understand the technology and have shown you have no interest in learning either, which makes you susceptible snake oil. That is as tested as time itself.

and in this thread, you have a guy who literally said the  “audiophile” Ethernet did nothing, he had all sorts of issues with noise with “audiophile” Ethernet switch and cables. On top of that, the manufacturer of the DAC told him to remove it.

 Linus showed why theses switches are just a scam. No one can argue anything else, because as soon as you get into actual technical details, you find out that people like John Swenson of Uptone made up things that do not exist to make it sound audiophile like. 

@agisthos since you or someone else flagged my post, which I have no idea why.

He literally says he benched the audiophile cables and got an upgrade, so not acknowledging that is dishonest 

So, I benched all the Cat7-8 Wirewold/Nordost and Audioquest Diamond stuff and replaced them with high quality unshielded Cat 5 cables and got a nice upgrade in sound quality

@jerryg123 perhaps you should read again ?  
 

So, I benched all the Cat7-8 Wirewold/Nordost and Audioquest Diamond stuff and replaced them with high quality unshielded Cat 5 cables and got a nice upgrade in sound quality

Literally says he removed them.