In my ongoing experiments, now going on seven years, with network optimization for streaming I've discovered a number of optimizations that should work with any ethernet ISP.
I've tried a variety of ethernet cables, modems, routers, switches, FMC, ethernet filters, the following is what I've found to be most effective optimizations.
I'll start with ISP quality and speed. Recently I discovered 500mbps to be preferable to 300mbps. Along with upgrade in speed, modem capable of 1gb service replaced 600mbps, both have Broadcom chips and powered by same lps. Can't say which more responsible for improvement, speed or modem, presume speed has at least some role in ping time. As for ISP, there is importance in ISP server geographic location to you, shorter distances means lower ping time. For information as to how ping time affects jitter-https://www.fusionconnect.com/speed-test-plus/ping-jitter-test
Now for modems, modem close to audio system is most favorable, extending coax cable preferable to long ethernet cable. Coax more resistant to rfi and closer positioning to system means one can more easily afford top quality ethernet cable for modem to router connection. The modem should use Broadcom chipset vs. inferior Intel Puma, Broadcom chipset has lower jitter vs the Intel. Modem should be powered via external lps using quality DC and AC cables, lps to power conditioner for ultimate performance.
Following close positioning of modem to audio system, router should also be placed near modem in service of same advantage of making highest quality ethernet cable more affordable, in this case, modem to router and router to switches, streamers and NAS. Router should be powered with lps, this lps should be able to provide more amps than router requires in service of providing greater reliability, having lps with reserves of amperage means lps runs cooler, heat is enemy of reliability, longevity. As with modem, quality dc, ac cables and connection to power conditioner.
The next finding is new to me, provides very meaningful upgrade to streaming sound quality. Noise from wifi, injected both internally to router and externally with routers sitting close to audio systems has long been a concern to me. I have quality Trifield meter which measures rfi, router with operational wifi manufacture obscenely high levels of rfi, rfi is noise, noise is enemy of streaming at level we're talking about here. And its very likely the more wifi devices one has in home the higher the levels of rfi produced. This noise is then injected into following cables and streaming equipment. One may convince themselves FMC totally isolates this noise, and while correct, it doesn't mitigate the noise and masking going on within router. The only way to eliminate this noise is turning off wifi. And then, how to provide wifi for the many wifi devices we have at home? The answer is to connect a second router to the primary router. The primary router will only provide ethernet for streamers, switches and/or NAS in audio system, also for the second router. Second router provides wifi for the home, this scheme keeps vast majority of rfi out of audio system streaming chain. My own measurements find rfi significantly diminished in primary router, more than mulitiples of ten times lower vs wifi enabled. This was seamless install with the Netgear routers I'm using. There may also be value in provisioning higher quality routers. My new primary router, Netgear XR1000 is marketed as a gamer router, claims of lower ping time, latency, jitter vs other routers. Since my old router, Netgear RS7000 didn't have means to monitor ping time I can't provide evidence of this claim. Whatever the case, my XR1000 ping time test measurements are as follows, 25.35ms highest, 16.50ms lowest, this is A+ measurements against objective criteria. Ping time under load is download 25.93ms, upload 37.34ms, idle 17.31ms, this rates as A. My speed of 565gbps rates B grade, likely need 1gb service to get A here. At to how this all pertains to sound quality, adding up the upgrade in ISP speed and the off loading of wifi is without a doubt one of the most substantial, if not most substantial network upgrades I've experienced. While I long considered my setup as having a vanishing low noise floor, with this setup I heard a new level of vanishing if such a thing is possible. Even more astounding was a more analog like presentation, while I wasn't aware of even the slightest digital presentation prior, this upgrade certainly exposed it was indeed there. It seems logical to conclude there has been some lowering of jitter here.
And then we come to the ethernet filter. I suppose audiophile switches can be considered as one, then we have actual filters such as Network Acoustics Muon, my JCAT Net XE and others. I continue to believe these necessary even with the all measures above.
Optical conversion is also valid approach post router. While I found generic FMC somewhat effective, at this point I prefer ethernet. On the other hand I've not yet tried optimizing a fiber solution, for example two Sonore OpticalModules, both powered by lps, further upgraded with Finisar optical transceivers.
Assuming one has high resolving audio and streaming systems the above network optimizations should provide for substantial sound quality improvements. In my system, perception of performers in room has been taken to a new level of intimacy, meaning a more emotional connection to the performers and performance.
At this point, I consider network has been fully optimized, the only upgrade I'm aware of would be ISP upgrade to 1gb.
> the voltage for the 1’s and 0’s (high voltage low voltage) are analog, the interpretation is digital so noise can cause problems.
@invalid signal degredation only causes a problem if the devices are broken. and it will not be a subtle problem. If the signal isn’t broken a better signal doesn’t get you better data on the other end it’s exactly the same.
There is no room for a quality improvement between functioning equipment.
If the device is not broken then your digital signal is 100% preserved in all digital to digital transmission. If the device is broken the change in sound will not be subtle. It will be obvious and you should replace the broken hardware with functioning hardware.
@soixYou have to be on a PC and log into the admin console of the modem/router by typing its IP address into your web browser.
Default IP address will vary by manufacturer, but for TP-Link its often...
192.168.1.1 or 192.168.1.100
Then you will need the username/password which are often admin/admin or its printed on the sticker underside of the device.
Once in the admin console, find the Wireless settings and disable both 2.4ghz and 5ghz wireless. Modern devices have these two different wireless modes and they can be enabled/disabled individually.
@agisthosYou are spot on. It’s the noise introduced into the ground plane of equipment by Power supplies and Ethernet cables that then gets passed down the line that is the problem.
I’ve not heard a good result from fibre yet. The conversion from photons to electrons is very critical and can itself cause noise. Different Fibre SFP modules from different manufacturers sound different. In theory they should all sound the same if fibre eliminated these issues.
It is absolutely amazing how much time people can put into a subject and come out on the other knowing less than when they started. Keep calm, stay snake oil.
I’ve not heard a good result from fibre yet. The conversion from photons to electrons is very critical and can itself cause noise. Different Fibre SFP modules from different manufacturers sound different. In theory they should all sound the same if fibre eliminated these issues.
I am just wary of these fibre converters because I remember back in the day Optical was supposedly superior to spdif because of its electrical isolation. Yet I never heard an optical output sounding better than a spdif, and the difference widened and magnified when quality digital cabling was used.
I can imagine the power supply for the fibre conversion boxes play a huge part, you probably need a good LPS to get the performance, 2x of them, and then power cables on top of that. After that outlay I think its better to just invest in a higher end switch.
@snsthere is a lot everywhere on the Internet, but I did find a thread on audiophile style where John Swenson of UpTone was absolutely destroyed for making up terms to make his products sounds like they actually do something. So that was fun, and actually accurate. Unlike most posts here and elsewhere.
Go over to audiophilestyle and whatsbest forums and you'll find streamers taking far more extensive measures to minimize noise, jitter. Some of these streamers have best of best setups, including Taiko Extremes, Wadax, not to mention their extreme high end non streaming portions. These are valid experiences vs those with NO experience with network optimizations.
do elaborate on this comment, please, especially the last part and how that matters for streaming.
If jitter didn't exist on networks,it wouldn't be detectable by measuring devices. The question is at what level is jitter heard, some may theorize there is a certain level.
Jitter is extremely important for precision manufacturing with computers, for various measurement devices where precision needed, gaming, and music streaming it seems. Manufacturing and measuring industries are leading on addressing jitter and latency over networks. Music streaming way behind in concern for this, many assume any old network fine as long as no drop outs.
Everyone: abort abort abort! Abandon this thread. Freddy has found it. He will not stop and will be spewing his venom and Hatred towards anything digital until every one stops contributing.
I too would like some clarification on jitter and latency. SNS seems to speak in generalities at times instead of clearly stating the basis of his findings. I am just trying to keep this wonderful thread civil and prospering. SNS also speaks of RFI contamination through ethernet ports. I won't begin to count the ports being used in my network on both ends of each cable. What could possibly be done about it? Clarification please!
I have a TP-link wireless access point coming next week. I shall report back.
I reached out to Underwood HiFi, a Melco dealer, about the C100 ethernet cable. He had never heard of it. He is checking with Melco for me as to availability and price in the USA. I found it on Ebay as an import from Europe. These dealers, including Underwood, will not entertain selling it to me with a return option, which is a probable deal breaker.
I am interested in pursuing this cable as a way to break the ground noise as the signal goes into my Sonore ultraRenu or maybe before the FO filter. This will be a good opportunity to retest the effectiveness of my FO filter. The last time I removed it the signal was degraded and back it went.
Right now, before any of these upgrade experiments, I am delighted with the sound that I am getting from my network. However, when I listen critically, which I do not find entertaining, I can imagine a little veil or puffiness that could potentially be removed. This is what I experienced when I installed the Pangea Audio Premier XL MKII USB Cable. Let me reiterate. If you are using the USB input into your DAC, and your DAC needs the 5v signal, then this is the only game in town that I know of that will prevent noise contamination. The difference is not subtle. Does anyone know another solution?
Keep the positive contributions coming boys. It would be a crying shame to have this thread deleted.
So, deniers and skeptics enter here, to be expected. I can only say,everyone needs to experience sound quality different network optimizations bring to the table. I'm no network expert, only collated knowledge and experience from other individuals who've found these techniques/equipment to be of positive benefit, I experienced that same positive benefit.
The so called 'experts' don't all agree on what network optimizations work or don't work, so don't let a few naysayers affect you're willingness to experiment. Everyone should do their own due diligence, plenty of info out there on Audiostyle and whatsbest forums if one needs 'expert' advice. LISTENING is also part of that due diligence! Man, if I believed what naysayers spoke I'd still be listening with all generic cabling, no AC mods, only stock footers, components on carpet or bricks or whatever, streaming direct off general purpose computer, and blah, blah, blah.
Someone really needs to offer audiophiles double blind test with exact same lineup of major equipment, one modded and tuned, other with no optimization. Which system wins this shootout? All I know is that I've benefit tested much equipment/variables over the years, new variable goes in and out, try to test one variable at a time. Benefit of new variables is either positive, negative or just different.
To write off experiential learning as victim of delusion, expectation bias, in other words, faulty because human senses are faulty is truly sad. Carrying that attitude or baggage seems counter to enjoyment. Personally, I don't give a damn that I'm judged, guess I"m one happy delusional audiophile. I also own plenty of material items that many could find fault with, ie. not objectively best in that particular category, guess I shouldn't be enjoying them. One can either think for themselves, read trusting in their own sense of enjoyment, or they can choose to rely on other's seal of approval before enjoyment allowed.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
Ask yourself, which are you? I prefer to remain skeptical, but keep an open mind, accepting that there are some things we cannot explain.
Years ago, I would have bet everything I own that cables (beyond a certain level of base competency) could make no difference. I’ve proven to myself many times over that this was wrong. I cannot explain the "why" of it. Nobody can definitively explain (prove) it either. I’ve accepted this. A bit of a shock to my world view.
Freddie will never venture over to WBF with so many Manufacturers and actual Engineers there they will blast him right out of there.
I am just a lowly MSME and barley passed my circuits and hydrodynamic requirements, so I look to folks at my company (EE's and IT Engineers) places like WBF for guidance.
With the way my digital FE sounds I will listen to them before @fredrik222for sure....
@jerryg123lol, is that what you call it when John Swenson was called out for making up terms to fool people? Sure.
my limited experience with sound engineers, and electrical engineers, is that they don’t believe in snake oil. Why? Simply because the physics doesn’t support the claims made by the likes of John Swenson of UpTone. Add to that made up terms like “high impedance current leakage”, which is just a bunch of words that means nothing. Currents do not have impedance, high or otherwise.
He likely brought it up since I mentioned John and some white paper a while back. He finds fault with this white paper, then infers John is not to be trusted as expert. I haven't mentioned a single Uptone product in this thread, so how he came into it is beyond me.
Actually, I'm having hard time finding the charlatans here. Is it the modem, router, ethernet cable, FMC, Optical transceivers, clock, lps, IPS, etc. manufacturers? Is it anyone investigating network optimization? Are there no more known unknowns existent in regard to networks?
Actually, I'm having hard time finding the charlatans here. Is it the modem, router, ethernet cable, FMC, Optical transceivers, clock, lps, IPS, etc. manufacturers?
All of them. They already told you that, many times, right above:
If the device is not broken then your digital signal is 100% preserved in all digital to digital transmission.
digital to digital transference is solved. Gear either works 100% or is broken.
There is literally no room for subtle improvments in digital
There is no such thing as an "audiophile network switch" or even an audiophile usb cable.
@sns you and many others buys into what John makes up. That is really a you problem. if you don’t want to actually learn about the technology you are trying to “optimize”, you will only fail. And on top of that, you will believe white papers that people like John publishes. There is almost nothing accurate about that particular white paper.
still waiting for your elaboration on jitter and how that impacts the sound in a stream into scenario.
@jerryg123of course you think that. He puts up facts that doesn’t work with your world view. But that is a you problem.
no, clocking on Ethernet makes no difference. That thread you just posted was someone testing an Ethernet cable as if it was analog interconnect. 0 relevance to real world.
No @fredrik222I could care less what he is saying as I do not buy into the switch stuff, not yet anyway. No, he is a schmuck I do not care for him, nor do I care for you. And he is a pucking gamer.
why I try to educate people? Because it helps some. I have received several direct messages saying something along the lines of “thank you, I thought I was going crazy with all these Ethernet “upgrades”. that are supposed to do something, but I can’t hear a difference at all”. Which makes enduring you worth it.
This discussion has been very helpful. X the vitriol. It motivated me to try some additional solutions to excavate some system noise. My system is a dCS Bartok Streamer/DAC fed ethernet signal thought an English Eight switch. dCS recommends feeding signal to it by ethernet, not USB. So my eero modem/router/WiFi was two feet from my audio system. I was getting some non volume sensitive tick, tick tick noise in the left channel of the c-j tube preamp. And a very low level of hiss like noise in both channels. dCS also suggested for best results, to use unshielded ethernet cables. So, I benched all the Cat7-8 Wirewold/Nordost and Audioquest Diamond stuff and replaced them with high quality unshielded Cat 5 cables and got a nice upgrade in sound quality. But the noise. After reading the first part of this, I decided to move the eero about eight feet away. Out came two three meter Wireworld ethernet cables to connect the eero to the wall and bring the signal back to the Electric Eight switch with would feed the dCS Bartok via the unshielded cable. The tick tick tick was totally eliminated. SQ was still good. Now back in went the Small Green Computer fiber link to the Bartok. All noise has now disappeared and SQ is fabulous. The streaming signal is totally silent at all volumes. Wish my tube phono pre was that quiet. Thanks folks.
That’s a fools bet @jetter. Be in the Colony Freddie how about it. Jitter your welcome to come along to but your probably busy tapping sap from trees.
😂
Can’t be tapping trees when it’s 16 degrees out. Already a foot of snow on the ground and another seven expected tonight. Pretty much business as usual here. You all got hit pretty hard last winter, hope there is no repeat of that.
Actually, that's not what I said... the "audiophile stuff" is all back in but arranged better. Maybe your system, like yourself, is not sufficiently resolving to understand that primarily the proximity of the modem/router/wifi to the audio system has changed.
After reading the first part of this, I decided to move the eero about eight feet away. Out came two three meter Wireworld ethernet cables to connect the eero to the wall and bring the signal back to the Electric Eight switch with would feed the dCS Bartok via the unshielded cable. The tick tick tick was totally eliminated. SQ was still good. Now back in went the Small Green Computer fiber link to the Bartok. All noise has now disappeared and SQ is fabulous. The streaming signal is totally silent at all volumes. Wish my tube phono pre was that quiet. Thanks folks.
With all due respect for my fellow music lovers, and not wanting to start (or perpetuate) a fight, I do feel that a balanced discussion is better than an echo chamber. In that vein, I am quite confident that most of what is discussed here is a combo of expectation bias and a love of bling. I have similarly useless stuff all over my audio system. But it’s for fun…it’s a gear head thing. Digital and network just doesn’t work this way. But I have no problem with people enjoying it so long as newbies are not led astray. So, newbies beware…
best to put your budget towards speakers, maybe DAC.
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