In my ongoing experiments, now going on seven years, with network optimization for streaming I've discovered a number of optimizations that should work with any ethernet ISP.
I've tried a variety of ethernet cables, modems, routers, switches, FMC, ethernet filters, the following is what I've found to be most effective optimizations.
I'll start with ISP quality and speed. Recently I discovered 500mbps to be preferable to 300mbps. Along with upgrade in speed, modem capable of 1gb service replaced 600mbps, both have Broadcom chips and powered by same lps. Can't say which more responsible for improvement, speed or modem, presume speed has at least some role in ping time. As for ISP, there is importance in ISP server geographic location to you, shorter distances means lower ping time. For information as to how ping time affects jitter-https://www.fusionconnect.com/speed-test-plus/ping-jitter-test
Now for modems, modem close to audio system is most favorable, extending coax cable preferable to long ethernet cable. Coax more resistant to rfi and closer positioning to system means one can more easily afford top quality ethernet cable for modem to router connection. The modem should use Broadcom chipset vs. inferior Intel Puma, Broadcom chipset has lower jitter vs the Intel. Modem should be powered via external lps using quality DC and AC cables, lps to power conditioner for ultimate performance.
Following close positioning of modem to audio system, router should also be placed near modem in service of same advantage of making highest quality ethernet cable more affordable, in this case, modem to router and router to switches, streamers and NAS. Router should be powered with lps, this lps should be able to provide more amps than router requires in service of providing greater reliability, having lps with reserves of amperage means lps runs cooler, heat is enemy of reliability, longevity. As with modem, quality dc, ac cables and connection to power conditioner.
The next finding is new to me, provides very meaningful upgrade to streaming sound quality. Noise from wifi, injected both internally to router and externally with routers sitting close to audio systems has long been a concern to me. I have quality Trifield meter which measures rfi, router with operational wifi manufacture obscenely high levels of rfi, rfi is noise, noise is enemy of streaming at level we're talking about here. And its very likely the more wifi devices one has in home the higher the levels of rfi produced. This noise is then injected into following cables and streaming equipment. One may convince themselves FMC totally isolates this noise, and while correct, it doesn't mitigate the noise and masking going on within router. The only way to eliminate this noise is turning off wifi. And then, how to provide wifi for the many wifi devices we have at home? The answer is to connect a second router to the primary router. The primary router will only provide ethernet for streamers, switches and/or NAS in audio system, also for the second router. Second router provides wifi for the home, this scheme keeps vast majority of rfi out of audio system streaming chain. My own measurements find rfi significantly diminished in primary router, more than mulitiples of ten times lower vs wifi enabled. This was seamless install with the Netgear routers I'm using. There may also be value in provisioning higher quality routers. My new primary router, Netgear XR1000 is marketed as a gamer router, claims of lower ping time, latency, jitter vs other routers. Since my old router, Netgear RS7000 didn't have means to monitor ping time I can't provide evidence of this claim. Whatever the case, my XR1000 ping time test measurements are as follows, 25.35ms highest, 16.50ms lowest, this is A+ measurements against objective criteria. Ping time under load is download 25.93ms, upload 37.34ms, idle 17.31ms, this rates as A. My speed of 565gbps rates B grade, likely need 1gb service to get A here. At to how this all pertains to sound quality, adding up the upgrade in ISP speed and the off loading of wifi is without a doubt one of the most substantial, if not most substantial network upgrades I've experienced. While I long considered my setup as having a vanishing low noise floor, with this setup I heard a new level of vanishing if such a thing is possible. Even more astounding was a more analog like presentation, while I wasn't aware of even the slightest digital presentation prior, this upgrade certainly exposed it was indeed there. It seems logical to conclude there has been some lowering of jitter here.
And then we come to the ethernet filter. I suppose audiophile switches can be considered as one, then we have actual filters such as Network Acoustics Muon, my JCAT Net XE and others. I continue to believe these necessary even with the all measures above.
Optical conversion is also valid approach post router. While I found generic FMC somewhat effective, at this point I prefer ethernet. On the other hand I've not yet tried optimizing a fiber solution, for example two Sonore OpticalModules, both powered by lps, further upgraded with Finisar optical transceivers.
Assuming one has high resolving audio and streaming systems the above network optimizations should provide for substantial sound quality improvements. In my system, perception of performers in room has been taken to a new level of intimacy, meaning a more emotional connection to the performers and performance.
At this point, I consider network has been fully optimized, the only upgrade I'm aware of would be ISP upgrade to 1gb.
HELP. I am functionally blind and reading long threads is extremely hard for me. I am also not a computer / digital expert. This is a great thread and one that is really timely for me. So, there are too many suggestions and I am unable to try them all out. I am super happy with my sound and wonder what people mean by noise in the system ( sorry). What in particular is the noise that you hear when listening to music?
I am intrigued by this discussion and would like your help. I built my house three years ago. I have a dedicated 20 amp line into my two-channel room and separate theater room. I use a Inakustic 3500 power conditioner at the end of the chain. I have a network closet that is next to my theater room but 50 feet away from my 2-channel area. The whole house network includes an Araknis 310 Router and 210 Switch tied to a Netgear C1000 modem and an Audioquest 1200 power conditioner. I ran fiber and cat 6 from the Araknis to my two-channel area.
My audio components are Lucas Audio LDMS Music server (imo just below Taiko) and a Lampi Horizon DAC. The rest is not important to this discussion. I have been using Fiber for my LDMS. However, I am getting an upgraded LDMS and Lucas has suggested I go back to Cat 6 Ethernet.
Even though I do not know what noise I am supposed to hear, I am intrigued by wanting to improve my audio experience. I have been doing some research and this is what has been recommended to me.
Option 1
TeddyPardo LPS 12V / 2amp that would connect to my Netgear modem. I was surprised when that was recommended. I thought it would be connected to the Araknis Router and Switch. Apparently the Araknis is already a good home network solution,
Paul Pang Quad Switch. This would be attached to the source wall Cat 6 cable. I would then need to identify an Ethernet cable to go from the Paul Pang Quad to the LDMS.
Option 2
EdisCreations - Hong Kong
12V 6amp EdisCreation LPS Extreme
Silent Switch OCXO Extreme version
And then if I really want the best, I would add their Fiber Box which goes before the Silent Switch. They are also recommending their silver LAN ethernet cable.
Am I missing anything? Is there anything else I should be looking at or considering? No one to my knowledge has mentioned these LPS or switches in this thread so if possible you may want to check out their websites.
I really would appreciate your feedback and if you want to private email to not clutter this thread please do.
P.S. what got me started on this topic as I am having major buffering and freezing issues with my TVs and even in my theater room. . Everything is streamed through Roku. I can not figure out why I have to always reboot the system. The Cable company said their system is fine and the Araknis is totally up to date. I have no issues with music buffering.
I would go with Option 2 - EdisCreations Silent Switch OCXO Extreme version switch and Fiber Box II before your LDMS server. Use a generic LAN cable like LinkUp from Amazon between your wall plate to Fiber Box and then to your switch. I subscribe to everything matters philosophy but in this case the last LAN cable between switch and LDMS matters the most, So check out Network Acoustics Muon Pro LAN cable. If you decided to get both Ediscreation switch and Fiber Box II, I would experiment with placement; wall to switch then fiber box to LDMS or wall to fiber box then switch to LDMS. Here are the links to Ethernet cables,
@lalitk --thx. Did you buy the Muon streaming cable also? I assume that goes from Server to DAC. I am curious as to why you just bought the cheap $36 Linkup cable from the wall to the Filter as opposed to a better cable?
No direct experience with Muon Streaming cable yet but I used to own ENO LAN cable in my earlier setup. @grannyring, someone whom I trust and respect; posted his impression about Muon LAN here recently. And Muon Pro LAN comes with 30 days, no questions asked return policy. A system like yours would greatly benefit from an ultra high resolution LAN cable. As far as LinkUp LAN, the only thing cheap about this cable is its price. The build quality is outstanding and the sound is balanced, open and detailed. I couldn’t have picked a better cable for a 15M length from my Infinity 1GB speed modem/router to my Telegartner M12 Switch Gold. Again, use Amazon generous return policy to test drive the LinkUp LAN cable in your system.
The recommendations you are getting from @lalitk are solid. I realize you are functionally blind, but if possible, take a look at lalitk's system. It is very dialed in and thought out.
Network cables are certainly important in a system. I use the cable he recommended above throughout my system for over a year now, from ONT (optical network terminal) all the way to my N10 streamer. It made the most difference for me from the wall to streamer and from the ONT to the Router. I've not used or demoed any of the $500+ Network cables, but the four sub $100 cables that I've tried including Supra Cat8+, a known hi-value Network cable, were all easily trumped by the LinkUp 8. The LinkUp 8 is of very high quality components and excellent build quality. They make a very significant difference in my system; I've tried them individually at all places in my system, and as they were added you could hear the SQ improve with significantly reduced noise floor, improved dynamics, and increased frequency response top to bottom. At their price point, they are a very good option and a good place to start.
I know you mentioned elsewhere that you purchased the Muon Pro system and that Network Acoustics will have a Switch out in June. I've been very tempted to go that route as the Muon Pro is passive (doesn't need a power supply) and I know @grannyring uses this setup. He also has the discontinued NA Rubicon switch and loves the combo. I will be waiting to see what Network Acoustics releases; not sure if it will have the name Rubicon or otherwise. Seems lots of people like the products they manufacture. I am also curious to see what Uptone Audio releases around June as well, having been using their EtherRegen for years.
BTW, thanks for the comments on the LDMS server, much appreciated.
I recently received two of the Linkup8 cables to go along with the Muon Pro streaming cables. Right now I am waiting for my upgraded LDMS. I am trying to figure out where to use the Linkup cables. My thought right now is to start at the front end in my network closet. Example....Netgear modem to Araknis Router WAN....Araknis router to Araknis Switch. Once I get my Teddypardo LPS I will use it to go from the Netgear to the Araknis router.
I do value a few individuals on Audiogon although I am more prone to go to WBF for advice. I have a full loom of Hijiri Powercords and RCA cables and Sternklang SPDIF cable. I believe Grannyring has used them also. I am a newby to this network discussion and I have learned a ton in the last 2-3 weeks talking to a few people on the phone from these threads. I need to call Lalitk but it is so hard to get in contact with people on Audiogon vs WBF.
I am also studying the QSA Lanedri thread on WBF. I have been a proponent of boutique fuses and love the QSA lineup. They are frikking expensive. I recently purchased a QSA Silver Jitter Plug. Oh my did that ever work. I was lucky enough to get that used. I was going to buy their LAN cables but ended up buying the Muon cables.
This hobby is so damn addicting. Soon I will be posting my journey to Aries Cerat on WBF. These will be my final audio purchases.
Very interesting read, thanks. BTW, you can find me over on WBF too, I spend a lot more time over there but post little. You can see my system in my sig on WBF if interested.
As to the LinkUp 8 cables, I'd work backwards from the Muon Pro cable. I did find that I got the biggest SQ increase from the ONT (optical network terminal - where the fiber enters your house) to the router, and from the streamer back to the wall connection. But for $37 each, I have them in the entire signal path, starting at ONT going to router, then router to A side of an ER, out the B side of the ER to the wall, and then from the wall in the audio room to my N10 streamer. They work great for TV as well. I've been slowly learning about the network side of the equation for some time now and I think this is an exploding part of the industry where big leaps are being made in the digital world. I know my system has made great strides with the changes I've made in cables, Uptone Audio EtherRegen + Paul Hynes LPS, etc. -I will be interested to read about your Muon Pro system and the switch when you get it.
I've been deliberating going Hijiri as well. Just need to get a couple other things done first. Lalit speaks highly of them and so does grannyring, and really many others on the Hijiri thread here on Agon. If you've not seen that thread, please go look it up and comment on your experience, I'd appreciate it.
Finally, will also be very interested to read about Aries Cerat.
Just ordered two more of the Linkup 8 cables. The build quality compared to what I had was night and day. If interested in Hijirii call Colin King at Gestalt Audio in Nashville. A great guy, with great equipment and you can test drive the cables.
@sns I just noticed a comment you made on 28th Jan about the addition of the Finisar 1475 being the final upgrade of your ethernet stage.
Can I ask your impressions of it? I'm at the same stage. I have the FTLX1471D3BTL and am very happy with the sound, but like all here I'm always looking for improvements.
I just want to give an update on the Melco C100 ethernet cable, because what it does ties directly into network optimization.
One end of the cable has a floated ground, so its ’asymmetric’. The idea is to not pass noise downstream, instead noise can only drain one way (backwards), away from your streamer/dac e.t.c
The theory makes sense to me, so I got one in to test. Immediately out the box, with no break in (if you believe in that) it was much superior to the Nordost Heimdall 2 ethernet. You can buy 6x of the Melco for one of the Nordost cables.
A qualifier - I do not have any fancy audiophile switches yet, just a basic Netgear switch. So perhaps my network setup is noisy and the Melco is a real benefit here but in a higher end setup maybe the Nordost would be preferred.
But for now I don’t really care because for the price the C100 is an absolute bargain. I have 3x more coming to isolate the NAS/Modem/Wireless devices upstream at the router.
They are frikking expensive. I recently purchased a QSA Silver Jitter Plug. Oh my did that ever work. I was lucky enough to get that used.
I'm glad you're enjoying the QSA Jitter Plug. I have the Red version and am equally enamored by the improvement it brings to my music listening. A couple of months ago I was trying to raise funds for another audio purchase and thought about selling the plug. I took it out of the system for just two days and realized how much it was bringing to the table. Changed my mind and put it right back in the chain. Sometimes what seems to be a subtle improvement at first can make all the difference in the world.
Hope everyone is well. Enjoying our 1 year anniversary on Tortola!
so I now have my GrimmMU1 going AES into my Tambaqui and love it.
I have sold my Aries G2.1. I now am not using my super Gucci Sean Jacobs DC4 Ar6 power supply. It has three outputs which can be adjusted, at least one. 12v and two others. Being in your guys camp off everything matters, I am considering using this top power supply for my M12 Gold switch and my Verizon G3100 modem. I already have a JCAT OPTIMO 3 Duo doing this nicely. It costs about 2000 vs about 10,000 for the Sean Jacobs. The OPTIMO 3 is also likely easier to sell.
So a long ramble into 2 questions:
what do you think? :)
and what is the barrel connection into the G3100 Verizon modem??? None of the adapters I try work. One fits in but I do not think the center pin makes contact. Do I need to buy a replacement from Verizon and cut it off? Please help!
and what is the barrel connection into the G3100 Verizon modem??? None of the adapters I try work. One fits in but I do not think the center pin makes contact. Do I need to buy a replacement from Verizon and cut it off? Please help!
I cannot help with that. In fact, I posted the same thing in this thread back in February:
I tried to do this with my Verizon FIOS G3100 router, and I failed:
Why? Couldn’t find the wiring and dimensions of its DC input connector. None of the standard ones work. And the Verizon folks had no clue. As usual. I tried everything.
@thynameyou may have the exact same issue with a loose wire in your modem power supply necessitating it’s replacement. 😊 only a 90 minute chat yielded a technical assistant who thought it was strange but did indeed send a replacement ps. Strange I asked that a $2 part might have a loose internal connection? Every time it was bumped it would blink the power on and off…..
I am sure we would enjoy each other’s systems. Check out the Baltimore orthodontic group in Ellicott city. They have a great receptionist that is efficient with Messages.
@macdude@lalitk, I am working on this. I have obtained a spare Verizon power supply and sent it along with my Realization DC cable to KS for retermination. what is the deal with the barrel connector from Verizon? The outside dimension seems to match an adapter I have, but is it the inside center pin connector? Is this a proprietary design or non standard connector from Verizon? Sucks to be humbled by such a seemingly simple part in a complex chain...
@lalitkI've tried so many different DC cables (including KS realization), and they all sound different. Even different xfinity cable modem/router models sound different. The Motorola xfinity docsis 3.1 model is the best sounding unit to me.
On another note, I have upgraded my Verizon router to the latest & greatest one, the CR1000a. I have had no time to observe the DC barrel plug sizing of the new router, but I plan to do so soon.
I have HD Plex LPS on both modem and router, use Bonn N8 switches with LPS, muon system to streamer, JCAT cards in streamer, and I run 45 feet of CAT8 directly from my Orbi mesh router to my system.
Are you suggesting I might hear an sonic improvement by installing another router to take the signal directly from my modem and then directly feeding both the CAT8 to my system and an Ethernet cable to my Orbi mesh router, and then the Orbi system would wirelessly serve the general wi-fi duties for the house? In that case, the first router, feeding my system and also feeding the second (Orbi) router, would not even need to be capable of routing a wireless signal since the only two connections would be hardwired. Is there a certain type of router that is best suited to hard wired connections only that I should look at for that application?
Hello @Mitch2, I have attempted to get my wifi router out of my audio chain.
So I have Verizon G3100 modem (with wifi disabled), (and working on using one of my LPS with it after I conquer the DC barrel end fitting), feeding M12 Gold Switch with matching 1.5m M12 ethernet cables and nice LPS. From the M12 I run 15 and 20 meter Supra Cat 8 to my music rooms. There, I have NA Muon Pro Filter Systems feeding Grimm MU1, and K-S Elation AES into my Tambaqui. For my wifi, a separate feed from the Verizon Modem connects to my Eero Pro Mesh wifi system. My thinking is this puts the wifi part of everything separate from the M12 switch side, feeding my music.
What about this Ubiquiti Unifi Security Gateway (USG) directly connected to the modem and then CAT8 from the USG to my system and a second CAT8 from the USG to my mesh system router feeding my house. Wouldn’t that separate the system from the rest of my home’s internet usage?
So I have Verizon G3100 modem (with wifi disabled), (and working on using one of my LPS with it after I conquer the DC barrel end fitting), feeding M12 Gold Switch with matching 1.5m M12 ethernet cables and nice LPS. From the M12 I run 15 and 20 meter Supra Cat 8 to my music rooms. There, I have NA Muon Pro Filter Systems feeding Grimm MU1
I have to say, this is the most elaborate network improvement I have ever encountered. In person or online. Kudos to you!
One little (probably minor) remark: what if you can get your M12 switch closer to your audio system?
One little (probably minor) remark: what if you can get your M12 switch closer to your audio system?
Yes this has been mentioned and considered. When I first got the M12, I tried it right in front of my streamer; it sounded amazing. But, I need a switch where it is now (feeding two wired audio systems), so that is where I thought it should go. It may or may not sound quite as impactful that far upstream. Options would be to put a more 'regular' switch where the M12 is and place the M12 right after (or in front of? ) the Muon Pro. I do not want to go backwards though with an inferior switch.
Or, add a second M12 at the system. This I resisted since the M12 and its wires look a little like an Edward Scissorhands haircut! thoughts??? and of course now there is the M12 PREMIUM!
Many experiments from top companies were done 1gig is Waay to noisy for music
look up innuos they built a state ofthe art switch from scratch ,they use 100 megabyte , loook up their ethernetswutcg ,my brother bought it I tried it in my system it made a profound difference . At $3600 retail my brother paid around $3k
I may buy one later in the year ,I would also like to mention buy a decent LPS for your router ,I bought the latest Motorola 8702 modem-router combo .
linear tube audio the best LPS under $1300 for $750 12v- 8 amps on tap with a excellent DC cable most charge over $100 extra ,and put a synergistic purple in it easy to hear improvements after fully 250 hours and a Pangea awg14 sig mk2=
if truly serious about streaming this is the recipe ,being in a sizable audio club we test many items and ,best for money $595 SW8 Ethernet switch
the best built and sounding the innuos Ethernet switch retail $3600 but great sounding ,every item needs a decent power cord ,the Pangea for $200 excellent using Cardas grade1 Copper ,and synergistic purple fuse this adds a min of 10% to the cheaper switch in fidelity ,the innuos also benefits.
I vote for 2nd M12 premium…lol! All jokes aside, if you’re using a Muon Pro ahead of MU1, do you think adding a 2nd M12 would further improve performance? I’m also running a 50FT LAN from my Xfinity modem to my M12, then 1.0M JCAT Signature Gold M12 LAN from M12 switch to +player. I’ve been contemplating to add Telegartner OPT BRIDGE 1000M Optical Isolator between my 50FT LAN and M12 Switch and hopefully I’m done with tweaking the Ethernet.
I have 300MBS internet. I can upgrade to 500 for $240/yr or 1g for $480/yr.
everything I read says 300 is more than enough. I stream music, an occasional 4k movie, and normal computer use. I use Microsoft teams for meetings and don’t game. My audio is wired to the modem.
In audio, I know that conventiional thinking isn’t always true. For example, power supplies have to be way oversized to deal with dynamics.
Anybody have an argument why I need faster internet?
@lalitkthanks for your reply. I don’t see in the literature any reference to streaming rates. It is an Innuos Zenith MK3, nearly new, so I assume it will support GHz streaming.
@carlsbad2: Innuos Zennith MK3 is definitely gigabit. A bit lazy now to send you a link, but it’s right there under specs on official Innuos page. How do I know? I have the Innuos and just bought the Muon Pro system about a month ago. I made sure everything in my chain is gigabit before doing so
I was looking quickly this morning before I left the house for my hike. I'll probably go GHz soon. The cable company says I'll need an upgraded modem. Maybe if I go Ghz and then if I don't see the benefit go back to 300Mhz, I'll get to keep the upgraded modem.
@thynameI see (not that Jerry) in this thread and I'm not sure what Jerry they are talking about. Glad it isn't me.
My ISP is Spectrum Cable. Obviously if you want cable internet you either take the cable provider in your neighborhood or move. I'm not likely to move (ever).
Other aptions may be fiber eventually but last I checked it wasn't available. The wireless internets touted by various phone companies have been tried by coworkers and neighbors and are very bad at this time.
Speed test gives me consistently around 360 Mbs download and 11 Mbs upload.
@carlsbad2: I am not familiar with Spectrum, as it’s not available in my area. I have Verizon FIOS. My other option for ISP is Cox, which I used to have years ago. Verizon FIOS is hands down better, I think there is also T-Mobile 5G home internet available now (via 5G wireless), but not sure
Verizon FIOS isn’t available here. ATT has a fiber option available with a whopping 50Mbs claimed speed.
the wireless (5G) options probably all suck because California is so hard to get permits for installation of equipment. We develop all the technology here but always lag the installation which occurs first in more business firendly states. I still have very poor Verizon cell service at my home is a very fasionalble suburb of San Diego.
@carlsbad2: Verizon FIOS Gigabit service. Technically 940/880 Mbps (download/ upload). I get a solid 600-700 Mbps download speed on my iPad Pro (on Wi-Fi), and close to 900+ wired laptop to my router
I called to upgrade to 1G with Verizon Fios, and they sent me the G3100 Modem for free and gave me the same channels and it cost the same as my previous service with 100 KB service. I was planning to purchase the Modem from Amazon, and was calling to order the service.
@fastfreightthe current Verizon router is the CR1000a. And the CR1000b (basically same hardware and software as the “a”, just different manufacturer). The g3100 is the previous router. There are no modems with Verizon, just ONT (optical network terminal that converts fiber to copper, typically installed outside the house, or in basement) and the router. I am grandfathered to the previous Ultimate tv package (I use TiVo, Edge DVR and four Minis and only pay $5 per month to Verizon for the CableCard). So I don’t want to screw up the deal. It’s $139 a month including Gigabit internet. So I just buy the routers on eBay. I paid about $175 for the CR1000a about a month ago on eBay, brand new sealed. Verizon want $400 for it or $18 a month rent. Ridiculous. I also own two E3200 extenders, connected via MoCA. One upstairs and one for downstairs. Own them outright too
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