2. amps-preamps
  3. 126624-10101

My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.

Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.

Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?

Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.

 It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.

Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.

Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.

Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.

Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.

Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.

My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


128x128jays_audio_lab
20,890 responses 
spinaker01
491 posts
 
Viber6, why are you here? Rane? Emotiva? Zip cord? I’m sure that the guys over at the home theatre thread would (might?) welcome your drivel, however you’re certainly wearing out your welcome here “Doc”. You bring no value to this discussion or WCSS’s adventure.
4425
861 posts
 
ditto to previous post. 
viber6
2,444 posts
 
Mrdecibel,
Now you are being nasty, as you were with techno_dude.  Number 1, any consultant should be mindful of a client's finances in recommending items. Financial advisors often steer clients into investments they have a personal business relationship with, so they are not necessarily acting in the client's interest.  In high end audio, the equipment is largely overpriced with mediocre performance for the money.  We agree on that.  Although I was never a professional audio consultant, I do a better job pointing out high performance values than most people here.  Second,  I wonder how much experience you have in classical music, which is my area of expertise.  Although I was never a professional musician, my knowledge and experience in listening is second to none.  How dare you criticize that?  Your comments about my use of the Rane to get an amp to sound like another illustrates your ignorance of how EQ can be flexibly used for many goals.  As for subjective whims and preferences, anyone is entitled to that.  But all within the context of a semblance to the real thing.  That is the philosophical difference between the listening of the general public mid/low fi where whims rule, and the high end audiophile who is trying to get a system to sound like the real thing.  Yes, we are all trying to please ourselves individually, but pleasure should be in the context of reverence for the real thing.  My listening is not confined to prestigious concert halls, and sometimes the most informative listening takes place in unusual circumstances, like hearing a performer on the subway platform when there is no noise from trains running.  You can hear the different sounds as you walk from far away to near.  The sound is so pure and clear, that anyone who then advocates for laid back rolled off and veiled sound is just living in a dream world.  That is not God speaking, that is just from an honest man who points out the obvious truth to anyone willing to be an honest listener.  

Several people here appreciate and enjoy my posts, even if you no longer do.  I am not here to please you.  Get used to that, although when you make sense, I will give you credit.
viber6
2,444 posts
 
spinaker01 and 4425,
If you can’t see the value of my posts, that is your loss. If you mock my recommendations of cheap stuff like zip cord, Emotiva, Rane, that just shows your closed mind. One day, WC will realize that a lot of high end audio is about overpriced, underperforming stuff. His experience of Plinius beating Dag is a welcome beginning. I am sympathetic to the demands of his family life with the financial constraints, so my suggestions of alternative equipment is very relevant here, and I know he values my input.

Drivel? CERTAINLY NOT! Show some RESPECT!  Rodney Dangerfield was wise.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Ron,
so I have been looking for a Plinius reference amp for ages even before the 301mk2 I sold you. It’s just hard to find and apparently the sa103 was the best selling amp for Plinius her in the USA. Although the reference Plinius is something I’d love to try, I got tired of waiting so I moved on. If one pops up then I’ll certainty get it. 
ricred1
2,000 posts
 
Viber6,
According to you, "In high-end audio, the equipment is largely overpriced with mediocre performance for the money." Please define "overpriced".  Rhetorical question... who determines value? I've been in this hobby for over 30 years. I've listened to expensive systems that sound great and relatively modest systems that sound great. We pay a lot of money for relatively minute differences. In general, based on my actual listening experience, the more expensive systems "usually" sound better. Better dynamics, larger sound-stage, more spacing between instruments, better resolution and more real sounding to my ears. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 

Whej Techno_dude,
so I think the reason many people are just dismissing anything you say is because you are talking pretty harshly without having even seen any of this gear in person let alone hear it. You criticize Dag, Martin Logan and many other brands but you don’t really add CONSTRUCTIVE criticism but rather destructive criticism. Notice that you’re the only saying the neoltihs should be 20k, the Dag are overpriced shiny boxes and now beginning to comment on block audio which is by far the one brand that not many have heard of. You are essentially a movie critic that gives films poor reviews and you’ve not even seen the movie trailer to say the least.
I sense a little bitterness in some of the stuff you say but hey yes it’s free world and anyone is entitled to their opinion. Don’t take my feedback above as a personal attack, but rather my explanation of how I see your last few contributions to this thread.
this is indeed about system matching and the reason WHY many don’t own Neolith isn’t because they suck. You’re speaking nonsense there. Maybe it’s that they are too much money? Maybe because they are too massive for most people’s rooms? Maybe because there hasn’t been more than one single used pair ever listed here on audiogon since they came out 4 years ago so they haven’t been available for most people to grab them at a good deal? Or maybe because most dealers don’t even carry them so that makes it harder for anyone to buy them? The only type of person who would buy this speaker without hearing it or seeing it is that audiophile that already knows electrostatics and doesn’t need to even hear Martin Logan’s best speaker. They would just buy it.
When was the last time you saw a Wilson audio Alexx or WAMM listed or even talked about on a dedicated thread? Those buyers don’t have anything to prove to anyone. They are chillin in their homes enjoying those masterpieces. 
sqitis
55 posts
 
WCSS,
That makes two of us looking for the Plinius Ref....LOL
jetter
3,032 posts
 
Viber says "Several people here appreciate and enjoy my posts, even if you no longer do. I am not here to please you. Get used to that, although when you make sense, I will give you credit."

Per the quote above, and as I said in my first post months ago, start your own thread for your fans who do appreciate your equipment knowledge and opinions so you can show your followers the path to audio bliss, instead of sticking around here criticizing WC and everyone else’s equipment choices..

jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
@ricred1 I agree with your last comment.  
mitch2
3,923 posts
 
WC, glad to hear your first impressions of the Block Audio amps are positive.  I look forward to hearing more and will be curious as to whether they will ever leave your room.
viber6
2,444 posts
 
ricred1,
You're generally right about these things.  "Overpriced" is a relative term which implies that there is some much cheaper item that performs as well or better than the expensive one, according to whatever criteria you use.  Of course, there is no absolute number for what overpriced means.  To Bill Gates, $500 million for a house that has similar features to his $50 million (a guess) home is overpriced. The fact that he can afford $500 million is not the point.  Even he discriminates value for his money.  There are too many charities and other great things he could think of, so even he doesn't have enough money for all the good things he could imagine doing with his money.  As for me, I start getting critical of an amp costing over $10,000.  I think my Mytek at $2000 has great value for the sound, but probably not at $10,000 where there are competitors, although I have heard a few of them that don't offer the level of performance of the Mytek.  Regardless of money, technology is advancing so that I think it is not prudent to buy the flagship of anything.  For example, I am eagerly awaiting the Merrill Elements.  The flagship 118 at $36K is not the same value as the $22K model 116, which still has high power and probably 99% of the performance.  The $9-12K model 114 will be lower power which may be a drawback for some, but if it has 98% of the performance in quality as the flagship, that is great value.  Other designers will be using the GaN devices, so there will be competition, creating more value for everyone.  
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook's avatar
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
981 posts
 

Viber,

  You would make a HORRIBLE detective/fact finder etc.  The op CLEARLY stated that the Plinius beat the Dag Integrated with THOSE speakers, in his current setup. He also CLEARLY stated that one shouldnt surmise that the Plinius would beat the DAG (or anything else) if it was incorporated in other systems with different speakers etc.   You and Troll do nothing but take out bits and pieces of reviews, by the OP or in Mag Reviews, and TWIST them (Omit Facts) just to back up your points.  Its totally transparent and only an idiot wouldnt see what you clowns are doing. You two should go shopping together for Panties. Man Up and reproduce ALL the facts as stated and stop manipulating everything.

mikepaul's avatar
mikepaul
223 posts
 
vibber...I can't see you "eagerly awaiting" ANYTHING that costs THOUSANDS!




dep14
336 posts
 
@jujubeez 

While I'm not WC we actually know each other pretty well over years of audio discussions.

Personally, if you like Stat's, I think the 15a's are really an awesome bang for the buck.  What has held me back on Stat's in the past is I'm a rock/blues guy.  I listen loud, and many of the smaller panels I feel tend to compress at higher volumes.  My neighbor has the 11's and while they are really nice at lower volumes, when I get Rock up around 95dbs with them - they compress.

The powered woofers are really nice.  ARC does such a great job smoothing out the response and keeping them tight.

I've thought about the 15's many times.  My room is probably a bit small for them.  

What I like about Stat's, Open Baffle, OHM's, and a few others is that lack of box coloration on the highs.  To ME they just sound so much cleaner, open, and natural.  The downside to many Stat's and OB speakers - bass response can roll off (OB) and IMO until ML figured out the integration with the powered woofers, it wasn't real seamless.

OHM's (which I do like and own a pair), find a happy medium with a lot of bass, and nice open highs.  There are some other trade-offs (LIKE EVERY SPEAKER).

But the 15's panels are big enough they don't compress, the woofers are fantastic.  

Stat's DO have a smaller sweet spot to sit in.  Just what they are.

As for the 250.8. I own one.  It's great.  Excellent midrange, but voiced like Nelson voices them, slightly more tube like.  VERY good bottom end, but not a vice grip like some other amps. The top end is detailed and smooth.  But, for detail freaks... might not be the be-all end all depending on the pre-amp etc.

I know many at Pass Labs even feel the 250.8 is the sweet spot in the line-up.  Runs class A high enough to power most speakers at reasonable volumes, but has the extra juice when needed.  I've had folks at pass tell me the 250.8 has the best midrange of the .8 series.  

So, from my standpoint the 250.8 and 15's would be an excellent combination.





kahlenz's avatar
kahlenz
268 posts
 
I'm not sure about more expensive systems necessarily sounding better. In fact, my experience has been quite different.

I don't get out much, but I have heard some super high end systems in people's homes.  They generally are grouped into two categories.  The first group is those who go out and buy super expensive gear and set it up in their living room (or wherever they entertain guests).  The second group has a dedicated (usually home theater) room with professionally designed acoustic treatments.

One of my audio friends has a pair of Wilson Alexx speakers (one in each corner), driven by BAT amps.  He has a nice turntable, but only about a dozen records.  99% of his listening is streaming Tidal though an Aurender A10.  The speaker placement drives me crazy, but he seems happy with the arrangement (he can't sit still to listen to music anyhow).

Several other friends have professionally designed home theaters.  Their systems sound great, but the rooms are awkward for socializing and are set up for one thing:  watching movies.

On the other hand, I have several hifi enthusiast friends (with much more modest means) who have superb sounding moderately priced systems.  One has Maggie 3.7s driven by a NAD375 BEE.  Careful room placement and some modest acoustical treatments yield fantastic results.  Another has Harbeth C7es speakers driven by a Rogue Sphinx.  Carefully set up in a basement listening room, this system blew my mind!  I ended up buying Harbeth's for my own main system (P3esr).

Speakers, room placement, and ease of use matter.  Source matters.  Amplifiers (provided they are properly spec'd for the speakers and listening conditions) matter far less.  Cables, power supplies, and esoteric isolation and room treatments can make a difference, and sometimes can correct problems, are on the bottom of my list.
dep14
336 posts
 
In regards to the thread in general, WC seems to be having fun... some of you seem to literally have your self-worth tied up in it.

It's a freaking hobby.  Arguing about anything on the internet is an exercise in futility, but arguing about opinions on personal preferences... of freaking audio equipment!  Hilarious.

That said, I can't imagine anyone that enjoys audio hearing properly set-up neoliths and not thinking - holy shit, that sounds incredible.  I believe someone here was commenting on the jumpers?  The jumpers?  Do you think ML would put out a 80k statement piece, and save 100 bucks on jumpers if they made a big difference?

Now, would you think the Neoliths are the best system you have ever heard?  Hard to say.  I don't know if they are the best I've heard.  But I know my jaw dropped.
mikepaul's avatar
mikepaul
223 posts
 
dep14.....the 15a's with the pass labs 250.8 sounds like a great combo. Which pre-amp if I may ask?
stargazer3's avatar
stargazer3
135 posts
 
It never ceases to amaze me how alot of forums in regard to all matters in relation to HiFi reproduction will boil down to personal arguments between the posters.  Maybe a new maxim should be
added to the famous saying  " Never mention politics or religion in a conversation" to "Never mention politics, religion or all matters as to HiFi in a conversation!" 
dep14
336 posts
 
Mikepaul,

I don’t have the 15a’s. I’ve demo’d them a bunch of times, and always enjoy them. One Day, maybe, just maybe...

You can find them for "reasonable" pricing (though 15k is still crazy to spend and I can’t believe I consider it).

I have a pass labs xp-12, it’s nice. It’s very neutral in my opinion. Frankly I think it’s more neutral that the 250.8.

(neutral always gets thrown around, by that I mean I don’t think it really adds much to the sound). I’ve used it with a few different amps, and generally hear subtle differences. Where I’ve owned other pre-amps and feel that the pre amp affects the sound.


My room is only 13 x 17, it’s treated well, it’s closed but my speakers run on the short wall.

I tend to listen a bit loud, I like a big sound, I run my bass a bit "hot", but I also don’t love using a subwoofer with my mains. I like detail, I don’t love rolled off highs, however I really really don’t like when cymbals become to "forward" in a mix. So while I like detail I get real touchy about cymbals. I do believe that box speakers have colorations in the upper mids and highs for sure.  I also have found I do not like Be tweeters by in large.  I know it's the implementation... but I just always feel the tweeter becomes the "show" on those speakers.  Nice in a showroom, nice to show off to your friends but after a few hours... too much tweeter.


I tend to like a little "thicker" sound.

I just sold off my DynAudio Contour 60’s. They are a very good speaker. They do a lot of what I like, the Esotar is detailed without being hot, they have a lot of bass. The biggest issue I had was the soundstage while very defined for me was a bit narrow and didn’t have that "big" sound. It’s quite possible I like a slightly exaggerated soundstage. Which, considering I love going to concerts - makes sense.

Thought about JBL M2’s (which are spectacular speakers, but require pro-amps, DSP, and frankly are a fairly cheap cabinet and build). But holding off on those.

I also never thought I would spend even 10k on speakers, so for me to go north of that, it’s going to take something really special, or a different job!

I tend to believe in diminishing returns, particularly in audio.

I think there are some very good new speakers in the 3k range (most internet direct) same with amps.

then there is the 7-10k range.

Then I tend to think there is a final pretty big jump around 25k.

After that... I think what you get is better, but the differences become really expensive to hear.




ron17
607 posts
 
@kahlenz

Really good post.   I've listened to 200K systems that I couldn't get out of the room fast enough. I've also listened to moderately priced systems that were properly set up with the right speaker for the room and musical tastes and never wanted to leave.... Finding the right speaker for your room and music you prefer is by far the most important piece of the audiophile puzzle. Everything else comes down to system matching and fine tuning. Just my opinion of course.
viber6
2,444 posts
 
dep14,
Excellent posts about how your priorities determine the best speaker for you.  If I listened to more rock than classical, I would totally agree that my choices would match yours.  That is not God speaking, but just an acknowledgement that you make logical sense in both your priorities and knowledge of sound.
viber6
2,444 posts
 
+10 for kahlenz's post and also the acknowledgement of that by ron17.
viber6
2,444 posts
 
RIAA,
You are generally ignorant of,  and refuse to acknowledge, the reality of general house sound.  For example, a mellow tube amp will not make any speaker sound brighter and faster than a fast Boulder amp driving that same speaker.  That applies no matter whether the speaker is a warm Sonus Faber or my fast, articulate electrostatic.  Why don't YOU put up the money and see whether the Plinius has more sparkle than the Dag for different speakers, or whether it is not true for another speaker, instead of making your own pontificating accusations.

Yes, compatibility has to always be taken into account for final assessment, but the previous paragraph is generally true.  Stop your emotional criticisms of personal character.  Compared to you, my analyses are in-depth and objective, without inappropriate personal attacks which only serve to take away from the validity of whatever is said.
viber6
2,444 posts
 
mikepaul,
If the Elements at over $10K are significantly superior to my $2K Mytek, I will happily spend the money.  I can certainly afford the $38K flagship Element 118, but if the $12K model 114 is 98% as good, which is implied by the statements of the designer, Merrill W., I will go for the 114.  I suspect that Bill Gates spends his money prudently, with relative value of all his life activities in mind and in perspective, probably more prudently than the typical audiophile.
bigddesign3
237 posts
 
@dep14,
Looks like you have a perfect room size for sound. With you treatments, you should have 10 times more of a chance of good sound than most. I also got lucky and now have a room that will bring the best out of a system, and is treated to minimize any reflections that may throw the sound out of whack. I have a slight problem now with adding a 55" TV above my Stone Fireplace. I could tell instantly the added reflection of the TV. Is is bad? Not really, but noticeable. My fix will be some type of tapestry like thin cloth that I can put in front of it when playing music. With the ability to pull it up and down it like a Venetian blind. It’s not really that hard to retrofit a bamboo blind assembly to a cloth one. Even a high end bamboo blind would probably dampen it enough. Not having a TV above the fireplace for over a year allowed for the realization of the reflection of sound off a TV with electrostatic speakers. With standard piston type speakers, the reflection is negligible. This is just a shout out to electrostatic owners. It will make a difference if some type of cloth cover is on the TV in the middle of the speakers. The back wall behind the speakers should have some kind of damping. There are many ways to do it for cheap with some creative ideas.

I have not personally heard the Martin Logan 15A, but it is the pinnacle of ESL design for the near future. The combination of woofers and panel with ARC room correction will bring a sound that will be better in many ways than conventional speakers. I have the smaller Montis. It gets the job done quite nice. But it lacks in the "full sound" department. Were talking the type of full sound that lacks "nothing" in it’s presentation. JBL Pro series has a full sound, and is a reference for rock music. Does it have the imaging, detail and godlike realism to the nth degree? No. The ML 15A will take you most of the way there, but not quite. There is an easy fix for that. One of the biggest secrets in audio is the "REL effect". Add 2 REL S Series subwoofers and it will transform just about any speaker into a new one. REL is not about adding bass, but it does that too. The REL design just adds fullness to your existing speakers when setup in stereo with their unique "Speakon connection" to the terminals of your amplifier. This connection matches the signature of the amplifier and the RELs hit in unison with your speakers. Your speakers will sound so much fuller and more involving. Like in the order of a few magnitudes better. Don’t take it from me, there have been many with 100k speakers and added a pair of RELs. For the price of admission, they were all floored with the sound improvement.


So my recommendation to have the Martin Logan ESL speaker owners. Just the speaker itself is not enough. Adding 2 RELs in stereo setup, and having them on the inside or outside ends or just a little bit behind your main speakers will make them giant killers. I just turn off one REL in my system and realize that it is just not enough. Turn on the 2nd one and life is good. And I mean SOTA good with the proper amplification behind the Martin Logans. The amp is also the difference between good sound and GREAT SOUND. Amps that double in power for 8 ohms to 4 ohms is going to give you such a leg up on what your Martin Logans really should sound like.
Laying out a considerable amount of cash to accomplish the brass ring in sound is usually reserved for men later on in life. Is is right or wrong to want to get to the pinnacle of sound? It’s either in your blood or not, to be frank. There are quite a few choices out there in the 25k speaker range. A lot also rides on the fact if you can blast it in your sound room or not. Some speakers just absolutely kick a-- at low levels. Some do it all. I am very fortunate at this time that I can blast the living crap out of my system without having someone chasing me with an axe. I just love Martin Logans. But I have JBL Pro Series 3 for shits and giggles with rock. Most of the music I listen to is better with Martin Logan. I can reproduce the sound that any of the best clubs I have been in on the East Coast. Getting close to 4000 watts peak total with my system shooting out club music is just magical on a Friday night. Earlier in the day I’m listening to female vocalists at lower levels with the same life lifting sound that we all long for. Martin Logan and RELs win the chess game for me. Enough said.
jetter
3,032 posts
 
Viber said RE: RIAA "Compared to you, my analyses are in-depth and objective, without inappropriate personal attacks which only serve to take away from the validity of whatever is said."

No Viber, your analyses are only written to draw attention being given to WC because his quest is a ton of fun to follow and to direct that attention onto your tired, repetitious and attention starved ego. How much more polite can it be said, start your own thread and give your opinions to those who are interested and want to learn from them.
jetter
3,032 posts
 
If your posts were only a couple of sentences long, that would be one thing.  But they go on forever.
dasign's avatar
dasign
201 posts
 
I am a fan of panel speakers. I currently own refurbished Apogee Duetta Signature ribbon speakers. Panels were refurbished by Richard Murry from True Sound Works. I personally rebuilt 100% of the Xover circuits using latest component technologies. What I like about panel speakers is that they are free of any cabinet coloration and minimize room side reflections, due to their cardioïd radiation pattern. Obviously, there is some care needed in speaker placement, especially minimum spacing behind the panels.

I was at the 2017/2018 Montreal Audio Show and the best speakers I heard were the Focal Grande Utopia, ML CLX Art and Rennaissance 15A.

The Focal Grande Utopia had a massive, dynamic and huge soundstage. It is a magnificient speaker but at a price tag that goes with it ($120K). You need a huge room/big amps to satisfy these monsters.

The ML CLX Art had the most incredible resolution I ever heard from any speaker. Its mids/high frequency reproduction were to die for, but seriously lacked output at the low bottom end. If I were to purchase these, I would add 2 subs. This is still an expensive solution ($29K = $22K panels + $7K  for 2 Balanced Force Subs). You still need a huge room to accomodate the panels/subs.

My goto ML speakers would be the Rennaissance 15A. This speaker is full range, wide soundstage, well integrated sub for a panel speaker. The mids/high are very detailed, but not as much as the CLX Art. However, the 15 A just kills the CLX Art in the bass department. The 15A has an Anthem Room Correction system built into the speaker for greater room intergration. Priced at around $25K, it is within reasonably priced for what you get. This speaker would fit in a medium-sized room.

I have never heard the Neos, I guess they would sound like a mix of the best features from CLX Art with bass from 15 A and probably/surely better than this mix....
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook's avatar
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
981 posts
 

Viber,

  Your Analysis is based..as always...on speculation. Nobody needs to read your "In-depth" Faery tales based on ZERO experience in most instances. I only repeated what the OP wrote....I didnt "twist" anything concerning the Plinius. I will leave that to you...use your scalpel and take out only the parts that serve your agenda and Omit the rest. That's hardly what I consider "Objectivity".

  Im sure the Plinius is wonderful. Might even sound better on some of my speakers than some of the gear I currently own. I said nothing bad about them cause Ive never heard them. I don't bash equipment I haven't heard unlike yourself. You know where you can stick your worthless and baseless theories right?

jujubeez
9 posts
 
Thanks for responding Dep14.

In order to not dilute this thread, i posted my issues under home theater advise needed.

thanks all
roxy54's avatar
roxy54
7,942 posts
 
I used to come to this thread to see what WC's latest discoveries were, and then I started getting bored. Now the most interesting thing on this thread are the fights between viber and riaa. Keep it coming guys!
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Listening to the block audios for the last hour:
1. The bass has layers that I’ve never been able to separate. It feels as if you can taste each hz being forced out of the 15inch and 12inch drivers
2. Gorgeous mids. Mids that never ever shout regardless of the how loud you push them. 
3. Although the amps are just getting broken in, they don’t lack anything I can think of. 

This amp reminds me a ton of the gryphon house sound but on steroids. The soundstage is just ridiculously big. Stay tuned as I keep breaking in these amps and begin to play with my own power cords. I’m using factory power cords which are nothing special. 
techno_dude
382 posts
 
roxy, you are bored because WC sold his Magico. The Neos are rolled off and not as exciting 😅

Riaa should not have the right to respond to Viber. Imho the less respectful user on this thread.
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook's avatar
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
981 posts
 

Roxy,

If you really want to amuse yourself pick up a copy of the Princeton Gazette on Monday Dec 17th. Might be a story in there about a elderly man’s body parts + Pawn Shop Fiddle found stuffed inside a D’agostino Amp Flight case in a Church parking lot on the night of the 16th. Only identification found will be a ID bracelet on the wrist that says GOD + a shirt with the Image of a Rainbow on it with the words I LOVE RANE printed underneath in Pink/Purple .That’s what my crystal ball says anyway

Cant respect anybody that pairs Luxman with McIntosh....and thinks that’s Audio Nirvana. Clueless as always...but hey...consistency counts!!




jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Update: 2.5 hours blasting the block audios and they opened up more. Things are pouring out of the speakers more and more. Smooth amps with detail. Man, they are getting more exciting as minutes pass by. I’ve sat here at 102db and I have zero ear fatigue, a big soundstage that pretty much needs nothing. I also picked up on the decay being lengthier which could be the low floor noise from the amps.
I don’t know if it is the amps needing more break in and that’s why I feel like they have opened up even more or if it’s that they just need over an hour of playtime before they sound their best or if it’s just the ref10 needing more time to warm up those tubes and I’m hearing the ref10 hit its stride through the amps.
Their chassis is about the size of a 250.8 pass Labs amp but far heavier. Even heavier than the 200.5. I’m not sure how they got so much circuitry inside this chassis. 

bigddesign3
237 posts
 
It's always a good idea to have your equipment warm up for 1/2 hour to an hour every time you listen.
techno_dude
382 posts
 
Good, it seems the new amps are slowly deblocking 😙
( I guess I feel I’m part of the bad joke gang against Viber ´s truthful common sense. I can t stand the raaanne ,wow I feel so smart... I might just buy the Dag overpriced integrated even if it doesn’t stand a chance against my Lux 900u)
mikepaul's avatar
mikepaul
223 posts
 
dep14...thanks for that in depth description..very well done. appreciate it!
mrdecibel
3,062 posts
 
Viber, my response to you, and I will keep it short and sweet ( this is not personal, but professional ). While I appreciate the fact that you want to work within someone's budget, I happen to know many individuals who have taken out loans to purchase equipment, and pay it off, pretty much like an auto purchase. This is part of being an audiophile, not having all of that money you seem to have. As a consultant, the most important thing I have always done, was to help the client figure out, and pretty quickly mind you, what sound does he / she want, with the music they listen to, and the room they are working with. What you seem to do, MrGod, is to suggest, no, push, and constantly, " your particular likes and desires " on others, which is truly a shame. Besides, you do it in such a way, that " your way " is the " right " way, and every other way is the wrong way. And you constantly do it with wc. You need to start your own thread, so the few followers you have ( and I believe it is only a few ) will join you there. It is not surprising that you like thin speaker wire, which at below 80 db listening levels through your Audios Statics, might be just fine. But when listening to speakers that have weight to them, deliver meat on the bones, and at levels approaching 100db peaks and above, thicker wire works better, for me, and many others. Again, do it vipers way, because it is the right way. I don't buy it, nor do I buy you. I am not alone is seeing this, so I know it is not me. You will have a defense team, because there might be some followers that think you are all that. Good for them, and good for you. I wish your book would come to and end. Enjoy ! MrD.
Post removed 
zprr
306 posts
 
ugh the energy on this chain now bums me out
WC - looking forward to hearing how the sound is unfolding on day 3!
techno_dude
382 posts
 
mrdecibel is an audio consultant, it explains everything and why Viber s posts on common sense about overpriced gear is getting to him so much. He is biased and will always be biased, so we’ll take his advice with a big grain of salt from now on. I ´m with the doc, and many more are, he is not in the audio buisness and has objective thought about pricey gear. Sure this hurts the ego of owners of  Dag or other big buck shiny electronics. As they say, the truth always hurt.


mitch2
3,923 posts
 
WC, thanks for the Block Audio update.....keep it coming.  Also, thanks for staying away from the BS that has somehow found its way to this thread.  I can't understand why some choose to argue about something as subjective as what somebody else hears in their own system - a pointless rabbit hole.
analogluvr
859 posts
 
@bigdesignGreat post above regarding duel subs. I would just like to add that that will benefit all kinds of speakers. Also it gives you flexibility to tailor the sound according to the recording.
Also I think a lot of what viper says is correct.   There is not a large corelation between cost and performance.    A lot of the stuff out there is not based on science and sound design principles but relies on the audiophile penchant to believe in “magic “.  This is not so much in amplifiers but more prevalent in tweaks and wire. 
minorl
1,015 posts
 

Just to be clear, the Neoliths, like many other speakers require a proper amount of time to break in and also required proper set up and placement, as WC has discovered.  He has owned many other Martin Logan speakers in the past, and also many other speakers and he knew this.

simply taking them out of the box and placing them in the room wouldn't work for most speakers.

So, there was/is nothing "wrong" with the Neoliths.  Proper break in, set up and placement was required.  each room is different.

That is not to say that in the future, WC won't try other speakers, amps etc.  That is really the point of this post and his journey.

People are now sitting back waiting for him to off load equipment, so they can grab it.  He has bought and sold some very nice stuff.

I'll be at his front door, first in line when (if) he decides to sell his REF 10 pre-amp.  I have the REF 6 and I am very happy with it.  But, I have heard the REF 10, REF 40 and many others and as far as the REF 10 is concerned.......damn!  And yes, most times, I have heard equipment in my own system.

How many of us have been seriously disappointed buying something with out hearing it in our system first only to bring it home, hook it up and say, wait a minute, this doesn't sound nearly as good as I remember in the store?

I've never heard Block Audio amps, but if WC says they sound great with the REF 10, Neolith set up, after all he has heard, I believe him.

enjoy

bigddesign3
237 posts
 
Sound aside, the Block Audio Mono is an absolute marvel of build quality and components. I'm glad the sound reproduction is matching the components inside. It should only get better with time.
mikepaul's avatar
mikepaul
223 posts
 
@minorl...nice post.

People sure do rush to judgement about any new piece that WC has plugged in. They are quick to say"fail" or "overpriced" etc after 5 minutes of use! (they feel a sense  schadenfreude).

I'm with you about the REF10. I when I plugged my REF6 in my system I was thankful I was able to acquire it.

I might have to cut in front of you when the "10" becomes available!!!...LOL


jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Day 3:
the block audio Monos were left on all night long in eco mode. This takes them out of class a but leaves them in Class AB drawing 50 watts idling which is less than a lightbulb. 
Im itching to try their matching preamp because I’m curious to know what’s not being heard right now that the matching preamp can bring to the table. 
Right now the ref10 and block audio have amazing synergy. The bottom end is on a another level. It took away any overhang or “woof woof” in the bass department that the Plinius May have had. 
Right now, my preliminary feelings are that these amps rank with the best of the best. Pass Labs looks like a tonka toy and this one looks like the real trucks. 
viber6
2,444 posts
 
OK, my book here is now ending, except I will occasionally offer a brief thanks to anyone presenting interesting info in a dignified manner.  I apologize if I have offended anyone disagreeing with me, but even in those cases valid points were made.  I have learned from all of you, and I wish everyone well on their own personal audio journeys. For anyone who wishes to communicate with me, I welcome your emails, russlaud at gmail. I won't post anywhere else.  Thanks and good luck.
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