I'm looking forward to you having some Martin Logan panels again. Still a fanboy with RELs added to complete the sound. I'm sure you heard of the new S/812 and the S/510 RELs.
Stay safe, my friend.
Stay safe, my friend.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Showing 50 responses by bigddesign3
wcss,4 day later of reading your thread. Lots of info. I like it. I also am down here in Florida and WAS a audio tester just like you. Anyway..... D'Agostino Progression Monos I think this is the direction in Amp study. To me, the original Krell designer and his amplifiers are more on the side of a hard edge over Pass Labs. Not sure, but you may like that type of presentation over the Pass Labs products. I own three vintage Krells that have been recapped and still adore the harder edge and slam that they deliver. Just my opinion, of course. I use a tube preamp with 4 6NS7 tubes along with the Krells. And the preamp also allows for Passive output and JFET output with a touch of the remote control. The Tube output is almost always my choice, but with some material.... I can see more transparency with the other outputs. The AR REF10 is a really good choice with the SS Amps that you are testing, but there are others as you have seen with the Luxman that bring sound that is different and exciting. The D'Agostino Progression Monos is my best choice to find the power and slam with musicality that you and searching for. Until you try them, I'm not sure you have exhuasted anything made on this side of the Atlantic. It was so enjoyable to read thru you travels with the amplifiers. I have always wanted to experience other amplifers. Amplifiers are the substance of a good SOTA system. Without a really good high current SS Amp, you never know what your speakers can do (unless you have efficient ones that can handle SET OTL amplifiers.... Now that's another avenue. I spent 4 days soaking up every word you typed here. Freakin' awesome stuff. Had a Mark Levinson driving my Martin Logans. I thought that I would have a backup to one of my Krells. Oh No. It did not perform in a way that was conductive to the ML speakers. The soundstage was huge, but the presentation was vieled compared to the Krell. I can only say that the amplifier is one of the most important pieces to the puzzle of State of the Art music reproduction. Lastly,The company REL has been able output just about any speaker to output it's best. 2 RELs in pairs are mandatory with any Martin Logan speaker other than the Neoliths. You tested the ML 15A..... The 15A will sound an order of magnitude better with a couple of REL S5s or G1 Mk2s on the inside of them. I know you said earlier that you want nothing to do with subs, but there are $100,000 speakers out there that sound better with RELs. I know this sounds like a fanboy, but any other brand cannot bring life to a speaker like RELs can connected to the amplifier and running in stereo. I read that you bought a REL at one time, but you need 2 to play the game. Should you buy the Neoliths..... Oh yeah!! But to revisit the 15A or the CLX Art is in order with an addition as I requested with the RELs sitting beside them. Test on my friend. I'm 61 and still get really pumped with high end audio. I have the ML Monoliths with 2 REL S3s and the Krell amp putting about 550 watts/RMS per channel at 4 ohms.Dennis |
WCSS,Thanks for responding. Your thread is the most exciting I have ever read! Kudos to you for having the ability to have fun "like a kid in a candy store". And comparisons with the both of the items at the same time makes for a much easier conclusion. I can relate to the high you are getting. Weeee |
Do the D'ag Progessions use the same tech as the Momentum? And if they do.... at $38K retail, will WCSS be able to get them with a discount? My money is on the Dan D"Agonstino Progression Monos in a comparison with the Pass Labs XA Series. On the weekend, I sometimes have a party with Electronic Dance Music thru my setup. Club Sound that is as good as any Club I have been too.... is playing at about 3,000-4,000 watts peak. Due to the fact the Concerts are just 1/2 mile away from where I live, the neighbors don't mind. Anyway... amplifier power and speakers that can handle it does count. On that note... amplifiers that can double power from 8 ohms/4 ohms/2 ohms and even down to 1 ohm are good for major blasting. WCSS.... you seem to like to blast it, and I hope the NEW ROOM you will finish a year or so from now will give you the stereo system that you will be proud of. WCSS... if you like to blast it at times, I am with you all the way. Done right... it is unreal what you can accomplish in the home. I have a porous Fireplace that is 10ft wide behind my system and it soaks up reflections real nice and runs all the way up to the 8' ceiling. The room is 18' by 30'. Speakers (Martin Logans/2 REL Subs) are almost 3' from the back wall. And there is only 8' separation between each speaker. Chair is 9' away from speakers. Most may not sit so close. I find it just right. Rock On. Dennis |
D’ag Progression Monos are more powerful and larger than the Momentums. 1,000 watts/ch at 4 ohms and $38,000.00 new. If WCSS can get a 25% discount or better for a pair (around $27,000), that would make the D’ag Progressions not such a bad move. D’ag is going to sound different than Nelson Pass. For the better IMHO. The Progressions have reviewed quite well as having a slight warmth over the side of neutral over at Stereophile. Saying that he liked them better than other amps is an understatement. Many others concur that the Progressions are an upgrade from what other amps they had at the time to compare. Someone mentioned above about sounding Dark. Not a chance. |
Sorry guys. I didn't want to start a war about what is proper sound. Bass slam to me is bass that is not muddy or lacking in the proper decibel level relative to the rest of the system. When I can sit and enjoy music digitally, I want to enjoy the black backgrounds of it, along with a proper DAC that doesn't fatigue. I dislike speakers that put out too much treble for my ears. What some call clarity, I call annoying. I find many amplifiers cannot produce the proper bass. It's not the level of bass, it's the real reproduction of it, and the ability to hear the proper decay time. I hope that clears up what I mean about slam. A lot of speakers don't have the proper bass levels. Many are -3db. That's why I like the REL subs. Connected directly to the amplifier speaker outputs, the RELs add the character of the amplifier and they are lightning fast in response.They are meant to be adjusted to levels that are enhancing your speaker, even the midrange. Not throwing a whole bunch of bass that doesn't belong. I wouldn't have wrote this RANT if I didn't feel that some of you would really benefit from a pair of RELs with your existing system. They are very different than any other Sub system out there. I'm going radio silent about the D'ags and the RELs now. WCSS, it's awesome to read about your adventures. Now that you have installed (2) 20amp lines, the sound can only get better from here. |
WCSS says...."I am also thinking of using a single JL audio f212 right in the middle of both speakers for added mid bass." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "This is my last attempt, as to bring you your best sound possible with a REL recommendation for your listening room."---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 REL S5s running in REAL STEREO ($5,200 total) on the inside of each speaker will give you the subtle synergy with your speakers that JL audio never could. JL audio is good for home theater systems and bass heads. It just can’t get you the synergy with your speaker that REL can. It really, I feel is not just my opinion, it’s reality. JL Audio subs don’t a Neutrik connector that allows the leads to go to the amplifier’s speaker outputs. PS Audio’s owner has some YouTube videos, and one is about subs. I just laughed so hard when he mentioned the best way to connect subwoofers is to the speaker outputs, and there better be 2 subwoofers. He says REL in the video with a grin. RELs blend to the speaker’s attributes and enhance. Does JL Audio Fathoms shake the paint off the walls? Heck Yea. The RELs have a 12" carbon fiber passive radiator that shoots downward, and when some serious power is applied to the REL sub... it turns into the equivalent of 16", and comes literally out of the closet and plays ball with thunderous bass. But there is a subtle "kitty cat" there in the REL that doesn’t overpower the speakers. The person in Las Vegas that I bought my Martin Logan Montis from had both JLs and RELs (2 each) of subs in his living room. He’s has the same story that all people I have come across... REL is better for 2 channel sound and JLs better for home theater. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Golden Rule: you have to use 2 subs for 2 channel sound, regardless of brand, to have the proper sound reproduction. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you plan on using the subs for home theater also, then JL audio will have so much more impact (but that’s home theater). You could go to the REL Reference Series subs. They are even adjustable from the listening chair with a manly remote control. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Suncoast Audio down near you had that DEMO with the high end Magicos, Soulution power, 2 REL Reference subs a while ago.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I’m just having a hard time understanding why all your contacts would recommend the overbearing JL Audio sub. It’s like you’re scared to go out with the perfect girl. Ah, Humbug. |
@WCSS, Sounds like a good idea to keep the Magicos for now. Revel Ultra Salon 2 also would be my choice as well. Of course, you got me thinking about what the Martin Logan 15a would sound like with that MAC 2301 combo. PS Audio, well, you will have them to get to the bottom of how they sound. Very excited that you got to meet the owner of Suncoast Audio. I have not met him (live in North Florida), I would like to have some time with him. I like his take on this thread. |
@mikepaul, If you live in an apartment or townhouse, please disregard my thoughts. If you have an amplifier that has a strong bass ability, then maybe you can parlay that into the speaker outputs of the amplifier with some added subs. Martin Logan speakers have amplified woofers, but they only give you a full range feel that is not anywhere near what a true "full range" system can bring. My previous posts about Martin Logans in this thread says something about how I feel a stock Martin Logan speaker system needs more woofers. The other day I turned off one of the 2 subs that sit right next to my Martin Logan Montis. It sounded so much better than just the Montis alone. I flipped the switch to the 2nd sub and had a stereo sub representation, and viola. Feels like I went up to speakers that cost $50K or more. Even at low db levels, the extra 2 woofers with 2 passive radiators each, bring body to the upper bass and midrange that is palatable to the point of "never going back" to the system without them. Just a thought on amplifier choice. FYI... my amplifer choice is "rebuilt Vintage Krell". (KST-100, KSA 250, KSA 200S) inexpensive collectables that have current and low end out the "wazoo". |
WCSS,I do not feel that you are being fair with Krell amps. The models you mention and the other monoblocks you had a little while ago are known to be no where as good as some of the older Krell models. I own a KSA-200S, KSA-250 and a KST-100. It is a different sound than the Evolution, Duo models and the monoblocks you had. Dan's creations of yesteryear should be treated with more respect. I feel butt hurt. |
WCSS, " I feel like if a full range speaker lacks bottom end then that’s just how the speaker is. I refuse to buy huge speakers and still have to buy two subs to get more bass unless we are talking about home theater. " It's your choice.... but (other than space considerations) why would you not want to listen to full range music? Some of the bigger speakers that I see out there for ridulous money, are actually too big for many rooms. Compromise is what is needed in many rooms. I have a very strict opinion myself.... I hate ported speakers. Those expensive Magicos are just begging for some help. Seems like all I do is rant about 2 subs (REL) right next to the speakers. Last night I had a party night again with EDM (electronic dance music). With just my ML Montis... eeew. With the REL S3s added, the dance club came to my livingroom. Just love the synergy. I would love to hear about the SimAudio 870A in your system. Keep on rockin'. So cool your travels are. I ran out my retirement money buying just too many cars and stereo equipment. Nice to see the craziness thru your eyes. |
WCSS, Just curious as to what your room dimensions are? Also, did you use Anthem Room Correction with the Martin Logan 15a speakers? ML Neolith will work if they can be placed at least 3 feet from the back wall, and 8 feet apart, and you have the room dampened properly. I have not heard them, so I’m not sure if bass boom would be a problem in your listening space. A lot rests on the speed of the Neolith woofers, and I myself have not heard them. I can only say that the imaging from a ML 15a or CLX is premium over dynamic speakers when the room has the proper drapes and carpeting, and other sound tricks at the back wall behind the speakers. There is only one brand of woofers to add to the Martin Logans (under $5k for two) that have the speed to keep up with these electrostatics. IMHO, you will get the best results with what you have been refusing to do (adding 2 REL S series to the ML 15a or CLX). Hardwood floors and even giant flat screen TVs placed behind the speakers will make electrostatics sound thin. Having some way to have some type of cloth drape over the TV when listening gets the rear reflections from it out of the equation. Carpet up to your listening position is prefered. The last 2 rooms I had my Martin Logan in.... (other homes) had the worst acoustics and shape. My new home is 29’ by 32’, with a full height Stone Fireplace at the back wall. Best room I’ve ever had, ever. What a difference dampened back and side walls can make to the sound. Also there are ways to add more damping for peanuts to the back and sides as well. You don’t have to spend all your cash on the professional stuff. Throw pillows, stuffed animals and Mexican rugs on walls are just some suggestions. The only music that seems to be not as good with electrostatics is Rock Music with a lot of electric instruments all playing at once. I have a JBL Professional Series system w/sub for that. But I haven’t heard anything better than Martin Logans with REL subs for that soundstage that they offer at their price point. Magico, Wilson Alexx and a whole bunch of speakers costing as much as a BMW have their place. For under 30k with subs, the CLX or ML 15a will bring the listener (in my opinion) to a place where dynamic drivers and their crossovers cannot. Let me know the size of your room, and where the windows are in it. Thanks. |
WCSS, The Magico M3 would, without a doubt be a perfect speaker for your room. Your room is large enough to handle most all size speakers without a port. The M3 bass extension is only in the upper thirties. This would be sufficient, but going into the low 20’s with bass extension would enhance things. To me, the M3 is a end game speaker. They mate perfect too with my REL friends, if you feel you want full range. I’m so glad that your room is the proper size for achieving the pinnacle of sound systems. I listen 9’ away, and Montis is 6’ apart center to center, and 3’ from the back wall . Montis is slightly toed in, but not as much as the Martin Logan flashlight test. Having the Montis separated at only 6’ from each other dilutes the few degrees more toe-in that is recommended. I have a soft chair centered, that is a clone of the Maxell Man Chair of the ads years ago. Just made of cloth though. Finishing touches is (3) blue aquarium lights placed low for effect on the back wall (Stone Fireplace). Took me about 9 months and a whole lot of amplifiers and cables to get everything up to the standards that I have. It makes me wonder about how much better that ML 15a would sound in my room, with the Anthem Room Correction. I’m at "WOW" with the Montis and RELs now. I also have 2 more REL S3s sitting in a box, but I have decided that just 2 RELs is plenty. REL S3s, having a 10" front firing driver and a 12" carbon fiber passive radiator shooting downward creates the volume of a 15" woofer when needed. And it makes for perfect symmetry at all sound levels, even low listening sessions. A few years from now, I can see a yearning for a used set of 15a Martin Logans. Happy travels. I see you taking the right path to sonic freedom and euphoria. |
WCSS, Hope you get to try the Wilson Alexia Series-2. I remember seeing them with the D'ag Progression or could it be Momentum amp/preamp in a video with John Aktinson. They are going to be competition for the Magicos, I think. John Aktinson thought the setup was the best he had heard at the one show. 57k new is a step up, that's for sure. Good luck. |
There are 2 REL S3s for sale here for $1,200 each. They usually command at least $1,400 each for them used. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis96d55-rel-acoustics-s-3-pair-available-subwoofers Just thought I would point that out. |
No one seems to mention how ugly the Tektons would look in a beautiful living room. The quality of the drivers in the cheaper models look cheap. Then you have the tweeter arrays that are kind of quirky looking. I know most of us have a woman in our life. For that much, we have taste, as a hopefully successful man. The wife would not let Tekton in the living room, or even your sound room looking that way. Great sound or not, Tekton does not make for a stylistic designed speaker for a nice living space. Come home with some of the wonderful looking speakers out there and the wife will more than likely let you spend a small fortune on a 2 channel speaker system. Revel, Magico, Focal, Martin Logan and so many others have that look that the wife and you yourself will feel like you just got a great addition to the look of home. It's called WAF (wife acceptance factor). I'm sure Tektons sound good, but for the life of me......Couldn't do it, due to the look of the speakers. It seems to be "an elephant in the room" that no one wants to say something about these pretty much ugly speakers. I also know that my ears are about 39" above the floor. Why do some of these designs go all the way up to the ceiling? Is there something to throwing out sound way above your head? Tekton lovers rejoice! I'll buy another speaker.... any other speaker. |
Trying once again to guess what mono amps you are getting.... From what you say that no one has done before...My best guess would be Simaudio Moon 880 monos. You loved the Simaudio 860, and if you get some speakers that can handle some serious power, this would be my best guess. Another amplifier that stirs things (other than the D'ags) are the Constellation Audio products. The Constellation Centaur II monos look to be a great choice as well for having the current to drive REALLY GOOD SPEAKERS that can handle high power. This is going to be very exciting for you to experience another step up in sound reproduction. Good for you. I know if I could go further up the chain, I would. The one thing I wouldn't shell out big money for is a vinyl setup. With great sounding DACs out there now, why spend the amount of money that it costs to setup a proper vinyl system. I'll have you know that my CD Transport shooting out SPDIF to my DAC sounds better than anything in my system. The same FLAC file dished out from my Surface Pro clone computer is not the same as the CD. And that is using a USB bridge called the Singxer SU-1 with some of the best Femto Clocks around coming out AES to the DAC. Redbook CDs are still better on my system with the transparent sound that is just a notch better. And they cost peanuts these days on Amazon. |
To be quite clear.... I don’t rely on magazines for any of the choices in this industry. What I have done is made my choices on a variety of audio salons and the people behind the amplifier designs. Spent over 20 years designing high end audio systems, and know what sounds good to me. I’m an engineer and understand a little more than the regular guy. The statements that you made about Simaudio Moon amps hold some weight, even though I have not heard them. But the images and electronics in the pictures that I have seen, lead me to believe that Simaudio has a very strong chance of being a major power in the amplifier industry. Just to keep the record straight, I have 20 years of experience of sound reproduction, and designing high end 2 channel systems for the rich. Sure, the warmth in SS amps as of right now has been something that I have not had the chance to evaluate enough as you have. Audio Salons are 5 hours away from me now. I’m in Northern Florida. But I do understand everything else to what it takes to have a high current amp with proper power supply and transformers, capacitors and the output transistors to make for a behemoth of an amplifier that produces sound properly. Magazines are a start for research. They don’t hold the answer. Synergy of components are the key, and for 20 years, I could put the synergy in the systems I would design for my customers. Just an FYI. I am not even close to a magazine closet audiophile. |
Dan D’Agostino is like a hero to some of us. Me for sure, am one of those fans. Amplifiers he has built have to be some of the best when it comes to supplying enough "Current". The power reserves are legendary in his designs. Most of my younger years had me wanting to sleep with a Krell amplifier. Mark Levinson, Threshold, Jeff Roland were the other choices, but the Krell amps were the MAC DADDY of them all. I bought a beautiful Mark Levinson No.331. It looked so nice in my stack. But I sold it due to the way it sounded in my system. It was totally recapped too. Just didn't have the vocals right. A veil, as some would say was all over male and female vocals. I switched it out back to my Krell KST-100, and viola, the sound was just superb Class A vocals sounding realistic enough for a "you are there" type of sound. Sold the darn beautiful Mark Levinson, and bought a more powerful Krell KSA-200s. The lively sound and perfect vocals continued with the newly recapped Krell KSA-200s, just as with the smaller Krell KST-100. Then I bought even another Krell..... Krell KSA-250. That was the most powerful FULL TIME Class A amp that was the model before my changing bias KSA-200s. Why did I buy a third Krell? To kind of have a collection of what Dan has built in the past. Now lets go to present time.... Dan D’Agostino is back making amplifiers that are competing with the best out there. And what does he do.... makes the Momentum Series look like Rolex Watches. And that copper milled side! OMG. The sound to some, is the best that they have heard with their system. Is any of this overkill? Hell no. The integrated D'ag weight is 120lbs. The look of it is like nothing else. It is like having a piece of history to own one of these Momentums. As you can see..... I am jealous of WCSS. And I hope that the integrated puts out enough power for him to enjoy these new secret speakers. Keep on riding this wave.... You'll know when you get what you are looking for. |
@techno dude I'm not sure why you are ragging on this guy. Dan has built some of the most sophisticated power supplies that I have known to allow for proper current delivery for every note of music played in a song. And protections that stop bad things from happening. Sure. Even a Porsche can have a glitch. They had to recall all the GT3s one year to fix it. Does that make Porsche not the best drivers car out there. Please. The amount of build in Dan's amplifiers allow for a musical presentation that does not rely on the AC coming in from the cord as much as many other designs. Having designed some wire melting car stereos in my life..... I know why Dan put the power into these designs. The reviews are in...... Dan's amps sound as good or better than almost anything else with some of the best speakers out there. Give us all some schooling how Chord and their electronic designs are better than others. My next system will consist of B&W speakers with Chord Electronics (Laugh). Too bright! DCS, MSB and a whole bunch of other DACs also are playing a part of the whole change of analog to digital. None of them are using ESS Sabre chips. Talk about power supplies.... how has Chord taken the prize of top design? Whaaat? I am not one to knock companies for the products they sell. But to say that Krell and now Dan D'agostino have parts that are too much...... oh no. |
Hint: they will be about 7 feet apart from each other and one foot off the back and side wall and I’ll be about 8.5 feet away from them. You describe the coordinates that are perfect for listening with many systems. I call this near-field listening. Depending on speaker, the amount of space from the back wall changes. But the 7 feet apart at you sitting 8.5 feet away is a great way to listen. Not all of us can move up the couch or chair, but if your serious about SOTA, near-field listening can bring out the best in your system IMHO. Looking foward to what these speakers are. |
WCSS, Congrats. I am so happy for you to try these babies out. I'm sure when you have the right electronics behind them, that they will blow away the ML 15a speakers. Good luck. I'm also sure that when your company comes, that low level listening will bear much fruit as well. Great choice. You would always wonder about them anyway. Now that you have had the Magicos, you can really decide what you want out of a speaker. |
Simaudio Moon 880m monoblocks could be an alternative to some other choices of amplification for the Neolith. 1600w/ch at 4 ohms. The Neolith can handle this power with ease. I read that someone has the 888m monoblocks in for testing now. They are very expensive. And also if money is no object, quite sexy on the inside and out. |
Ear fatigue. The bane of any good high end stereo. Me personally, am very sensitive to having the highs grind into my brain and making my ears hurt. I remember going from a Sabre type DAC chip to AKM chips with FPGA programming. Digital all of a sudden sounded closer to analog. Amps do sound different. I’m still in the Stone Age with my Vintage Krell amplifiers that I use. I can only imagine how good a D’ag could sound 20 years later than my Krell KSA-200s (my current favorite one). I think the D’ag amps can do justice to the hallmark of "fatigue free" sound. I think (don’t know personally) that Pass Labs are not at all having the same type of presentation as D’ag amps. I think WCSS is on the right track to having the Neolith sounding at it’s best with his new choices of amplifiers. Could the Rolands mono blocks sound as good or better than the D’ags? Not sure. But I would guess that the D’ag monoblocks would win out. Not sure how bi-amping the Neolith would hash out. But I hope that WCSS does some fun things with these babies. Cause, once these speakers are dialed in just right...... LOOK OUT. |
Here is something to try...... Your room is what it is, and I suggest you start with no toe-in at all. I found that more 3D space came to my setup with less toe-in than the flashlight test that Martin Logan recommended. And I noticed that most of the pictures that I have seen of the Neolith was without any toe-in or just a little. Listening at 8 to 9 feet should work, but every inch is going to count from the back wall. So if you can spare even just a few inches more, the situation will get better. And take a look at having the Neolith with no toe-in. It was a good move to go into the back of the speaker and go with -8db with that giant 15" driver so near the back wall. You will need some serious power to realize the potential of this speaker. I not sure the Block Audio is even going to be enough. The ratings with that amp is 500w/ch at 4 ohms. The great thing about the Block Audio Monoblocks is the amount of build inside to throw some serious current to the speakers. Looking at the specs, it is very similar to my Krell KSA-200s in transformer size and capacitance. My Krell puts out 560w/ch at 1% distortion. The Block Audio may put out just a hair more than that. The Neolith panels are so freakin' big, that it's possible that they could use an even bigger amplifier with a power rating of 800w/ch to 1000w/ch at 4 ohms and stable all the way down to 1 ohm. The Block Audio may be just right for the occasion and room size. Only testing will tell. Martin Logan rates the Neolith up to 1,300 watts can be put thru each speaker. |
"
Well guys the panels themselves are at least 4 feet away from the wall
behind them. The side of the cabinet is around 1.5ft from the side walls
and they are about 7 feet away from each other measuring from the
center of each panel. I’m about 9 feet away from them." I'd say this is perfect placement for this room. And the distance away from these monsters is spot on. The point I'm trying to make is due to the massive size of electrostatic panel, too much toe-in could cause some mixed imaging results. By starting at placement with no toe-in, and taking a listen to a few songs. Then adjust toe-in very slowly, and I mean an inch at a time. From what WCSS was saying about the confusion of sound is more likely do to the back waves bouncing and the toe-in. Now that he has added more room on the back wall.... starting from scratch (no toe-in) to little changes will work way better than having the inner third method. I know that these can sound good in a smaller room, due to the fact that it was setup in a hotel with a tiny room size. And it still sounded glorious. You are one lucky guy, and with time this is going to be some experience. Good luck! |
@mikepaul,REL S Series or higher is going to make your 15a or a CLX sound better. The direct connection to the amplifier's speaker outputs allows for the character of the amp to go into the REL subs. The effect will go all the way up to the midrange. The RELs are not designed to be a smoking hot subwoofer that shakes the pictures off the walls. It is designed to complement your existing full range speaker and add dimension that is beyond expectation. The use of an Active driver shooting foward, and a passive Carbon Fiber facing downward allows for a loading of bass different than most of the others. I own 4 REL S3 subs, but an only using 2 right now. Only in pairs, and wired in stereo will the true effect of enhancement be realized. The Martin Logan subs are superb for low bass, but not for enhancement of the speaker's low to midrange. For the money of the ML 212.... you could have a REL 212/SE or 2 REL S3. I would buy some RELs first, before moving to the CLX. And run a couple of them with the 15As. Then if you don't think that the sound has improved (which they sure will be), you would still have them for the CLX speakers. The question is whether you need to move up to the CLX? Most anyone I know say that it is the best money they have ever spent to improve their system. Hope this helps. |
https://rel.net/shop/powered-subwoofers/serie-s/carbon-limited/ Check out this new limited edition REL. It’s $3,499. That’s $1,000 more than the regular REL S5. Is it worth it? Oh yes, for all systems that cost 15k or more. "Carbon Limited". Is a special offering that provides a unique blend of our Reference carbon fibre 12”driver from the Reference G1 MKII. and our finest passive driver from the 212/SE, all packed into the proven S/5 chassis, which is then fitted with triple chrome plated hardware. They are only going to make a certain amount of these. I saw about 4 years ago, the same thing that REL doing a Limited Edition. They got rave reviews. But remember, the REL S5 is super good, and costs only $2,499. Either one is so good that you will keep them for 10 years or more. |
WCSS, A single powerful amplifier is going to help you find the proper amp for the Neolith. As discussed, it should be 2 ohm or 1 ohm stable with a massive current capability. There is no such thing as having too much current available. With that said.... the AR Reference 750 SE is a boatload of tubes that may work in your favor. I saw online that one of the Neolith Demos have the AR 750 SE. They come very cheap used too. The risk you take is all the freakin' tubes on these monoblocks. Testing different powerful amplifiers, like you are doing is the answer. Personally, I would stay away from sterile amplifiers, that are too neutral (Boulder, for example). I'm not sure Pass Labs are fast enough for the Neoliths. But it wouldn't hurt to borrow some of them. You'll know it when you hear it. The D'ag Integrated may not have enough power to make the Neolith shine. But the Momentum Monoblocks may be the cure. Bi-amping with your AR REF10 should be painless. There are two sets of outputs in XLR. Perfect for bi-amping. I would say that matching amplifiers would be the easiest, but I have seen many go with different brands. The only caveat is.... there has to be a way to control the gain from each amp. Some amps do allow for gain adjustment in the back of said amplifier. Will it sound better? There are no guarantees. But you could use 400w/ch at 4 ohms amplifiers in a bi-amp situation and have 800w/ch total. But because of the bi-amping it could sound a lot less strained. Personally...... I would love to hear the Simaudio 880 monoblocks with the Neoliths. And these Block Audio amps look like a winner. Hope this helps. |
WCSS, You are now diving into the real Neolith. You now have the experience, with using the tone controls of a speaker that kicks royal ass. So now you know that something is there to be had. And that the Neolith can sound just as you had hoped. This is an exciting thing that you have brought to the table. You have now established that the Neolith can bring forth the "bacon" with proper parts to back it up. Now of course, the use of a tone control is blasphemy to most all audiophiles. But this does let you know that the Neolith has great possibilities as a SOTA speaker. So how do you get this magic sound without tone controls? Well, you have a baseline as to where things are missing in the "parts" chain now. Thru preamp, amp, speaker cables, and XLRs..... there will be some progress that can be achieved. But let's say that you can't get exactly the same result. I would say that the D'ag separate Momentum Preamp would be a choice then. That would give you the tone controls, and you could use any amplifier setup you choose. If that is what it takes to get the Neolith sounding it's best, who on God's Green Earth can tell you that the Momentum Preamp is not "winning". Once you can get some serious current to the Neoliths...... all will be well. They would like more, and in a big way. Amps that double in power all the way down would be the best choice. It's unfortunate that the D'ag Integrated doesn't have XLR out, and could be used as a preamp. But the D'ag Integrated is letting you know now, that the Neolith is one hell of a speaker. If we always have to be chained down with certain audiophile ideas (no tone or eq), there will never be an open ocean of sound to be had. This is a really good reveal WCSS. Keep on keepin' on. |
Good to see that you are using the spikes. Tilting them down, a no brainer. The resulting sound is usually very noticeable, and put the whole bottom end in line with the speed of the mids/hi. You are just scratching the surface, I feel of what the Neolith is capable of. I would be curious as to what Piano and also Acoustic Guitar sounds like with these babies. If you have a Tidal account, I have found that some of the latest recordings coming out recently are much more cohesive than the older recordings from the past. They sound so much better. This has led me to explore the Tidal catalog and discover all kinds of artists. And the tracks really bring it home with my ML electrostatics. Vocalists have such a good sound with electrostatics, compared to conventional dynamic speakers. Going up in pricing for dynamic speakers changes that. But those types of speakers are crossing into the 50k or more club. |