WC, what pre amp and speakers did you use with the Boulder amp?
Thanks
Thanks
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
WC, You have a nice thread here, and most folks are trying to enjoy it and discuss equipment. I think the only unfortunate thing is when folks make judgments on others, i.e. saying whether their posts are qualified or not, etc, as well as name calling, like snowflake, etc - all of which leads to arguments. I saw that you mentioned "...the thread has derailed" and "turned into arguments" on the previous page and that you put some of the blame on yourself. My recommendation, since you are the OP, is to let folks know if there’s discussion you would prefer for them to take elsewhere. I know you are super nice though and probably do not want to get into it with anyone. Looking forward to your next step in the journey, as well as the equipment discussions in the meantime. Dave |
Boulder 2060: incredible construction and unmatched in that regard. Huge power and control but it lacks a wow factor. I think of their amps as the same effect a boiled chicken Breast has on your taste buds without any condiments.... I prefer condiments in my food, whether it be tomatoes, onions, salsa etc. Boulder simply didn’t make me want to keep researching for its matching preamp. I can’t see myself going back to boulder and with Magico it probably is awful sounding. I prefer 2 Luxman 900u over the boulder 2060. |
mrdecibel, Thanks for mentioning the Luminous Audio Passive Preamp. I hope many here will try this or other passive preamps. Did you try any of the units from Music First? The MF was very transparent and I couldn't hear any difference in repeated bypass tests after an hour of trial at someone else's place. Most people will say that an active line stage with gain delivers more dynamics, but along with that comes electronic veiling of details and other distortions. But I find the Rane ME 60 EQ a must for tastefully tailoring sound to your preferences. As you know as a musician, all speakers, electronics and recordings suck in different ways, so the typical audiophile sanctimonious shunning of EQ is not a pragmatic approach to getting the most out of your music the way you want it. I agree that the Rane input level control knobs are crude, so I keep them untouched at maximum clockwise, where the gain is about unity for RCA and 6 dB for XLR. I use my decent volume control on the Benchmark Pre 1 DAC. You could try inserting your Rane between your Luminous preamp and the power amp. This way you use the excellent switching function and volume control of the Luminous. And whatever electronic artifacts are introduced by the Rane, they are less than probably all but very expensive line stages, and the benefits of EQ vastly outweigh any artifacts introduced. Ever notice how some 1940 vocal recordings can sound wonderful? That comes from skillful close miking and EQ. Mercury Living Presence recordings from the late 1950's sound immediate and exciting due to HF boost in EQ, which is obvious but the whole effect is great if you can forgive the manipulation. If you don't like the results, just EQ to undo the effect to your taste. |
@minorl - After some advanced searches of this thread, I found that it was the Boulder 2060 and related discussion started on this page. Initial impressions were very favorable as I recalled, stating it had the best bass, control, midrange, etc. along with incredible speed and dynamics. Then it seems WC considered getting a Boulder 2010 preamp to best match with it but apparently that never came to be. Later on he did some group comparisons of various preamp/amp combos and reported "Anyhow, we all agreed that the boulder 2060 just sounds lifeless, clinical, analytical and it is probably in need of either its matching preamp or just a pair of Rockport speakers which we all know has synergy with it." Later on he spoke with a Boulder dealer who claimed that the magic would be with the 2050 mono amps, and then I didn't see much continued interest in Boulder from that point forward. Hope this helps... I know trying to find specific references in such a lengthy thread can be frustrating and very time consuming! |
bill_k; do you recall which Boulder amp WC used? and also the speakers. I know (in my opinion) that Boulder (although quite nice) are very overpriced, so it is a wonder that WC managed to off-load the Boulder amp and recover his costs. If you can't remember, no worries, I will go back and re-read the several thousand posts. Laugh. enjoy |
viber6 said : mrdecibel, thanks for relating your experience. Because of that, your views have clout and command respect, notably your integration of "objectivity, subjectivity, participant, experience."....."For the record, minorl and grey9hound had the only intelligent and worthwhile responses to my last admittedly long post ". These are both on page 67 of this thread.......What does this tell you about viber6 ? Oh, and his Rane EQ. I have one, it is ok. It has horrible input level controls. It’s chassis is the most resonant I have encountered ( all pro eqs are ), and it certainly does not have the cleanliness of my Luminous Audio Axiom II Walker Mod unit ( yes, I compared it ). But, in no way do I feel he is spoiling the party here, as WC is fine with it, so am I. Enjoy ! MrD. |
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Hahahah thanks Ron. Send me the link. I Haven’t ventured into more tube amps because of the heat and maintenance. I do love tubes. I can’t deny I love they make music. Ron, I may have you ship me the 870a and I’ll ship you a 900u when I get one. This way we both don’t have to pay any money to demo them. Don’t be shocked if you love the 900u lol. |
minorl, Thanks for your honest description of the sound character of the Dag, which is consistent with a well-established NY dealer's observations. It seems that you have heard the Dag at shows or dealers, but not at home. Correct me if I am wrong. The best opportunity to audition current Krells at home risk free would be through Music Direct or Audio Advisor. The Music Room in Colorado always has used Krells for sale, with a 45 day free trial. The last big one was the top of the line Solo 575 monos for under $10K (retail $22K)--they were snatched up in only a few weeks after listing. I learned about Music Room from A-gon. Their buy direct prices are a little lower than the asking prices here on A-gon. They are classy people to deal with. |
Viber6: I haven't heard the Krell and DAG amps side by side. That, really is the only true way (matching levels of course) to make a determination realistically. However, I can say that the newer Krells are more open and not nearly as bright as the older Krells I've heard. That was always my complaint about Krells in the past. However, the D'Agostino amps, to me, are very open, clean, detailed and not at all sounding "solid state". What ever that means. They are some of the best amps I have heard. along with Audio Research REF 250SE, REF 750, VTL, Jeff Rowland, and some others. As I wrote in another post here, the D'Agostino/Martin Logan Neolith combination at the 2018 RMAF was one of the very best sounding rooms there. There were a few rooms that were just outstanding. I have to take WhiteCamaross' evaluations with a grain of salt also, because as he mentioned, he is limited by the ability or perceived ability to resale certain equipment. Therefore, he is reluctant to purchase certain equipment for that reason. So, no D'Agostino amps, no Audio Research REF250SE (yet). and no, the Audio Research amp he did listen to, wasn't close to the REF250SE amp. With a REF 10 pre-amp and the REF250SE, that was one of the very best sounding systems I have every heard. The good thing is that some people are letting him "borrow" their equipment for evaluation purposes. That is nice. Anyway, sorry for digressing. It is difficult to find stores that carry Krell. I don't know why. So, it is difficult to hear them much less take them home for an in-home demo. But, the newer Krells I have heard are quite nice, but the D'Agostino is in another world. In my opinion. I would grab them in an instant if the money was right. enjoy |
When running stereo amps in bridged mono mode (like the Benchmark AHB2 amps) the load impedance seen by the amplifier is effectively halved. So for example if you're running an extremely low 1 ohm load as Viber6 is, bridged AHB2 amps would effectively be driving a 0.5 ohm load. So while the higher power may be an advantage in some setups it should be taken into account with the lower effective impedance and the requisite higher current demands. |
WC, come to think of it, I believe that strapped mono Benchmark AHB2's at $6k retail would give you just about everything you value--good power, superb accuracy with no HF harshness, superb neutrality with a slight hint of warmth (at least compared to my Bryston 2.5B SST2), the lowest distortion and noise specs in the industry. This is truly a sleeper, but pretty popular among the informed cognoscenti. When you are ready, you could get a 60 day no risk trial through Music Direct, or a 30 day trial through the company direct, or if you got a great deal for used, I don't think you would have any trouble selling them because they are rarely seen on the used market since they are keepers to most people. Also, you could keep them as cheap references for a long time. |
RIAA, I had the Benchmark AHB2 at home for a 60 day trial, used as stereo. I loved the sound quality, as it was very close to my Bryston 2.5B SST2. I didn't buy it, because it shut down at surprisingly low volume into my unusual load of 2 parallel stereo electrostatic speakers, which go down to 1 ohm with weird phase angles. I had thought the high power specs of the Benchmark would give me the required power, but the home trial showed otherwise. I asked Benchmark if I could strap them in mono to get much more power, but they said no, because the strapped monos would be even more intolerant of very low impedance loads. For most people with dynamic speakers of much higher efficiency and more comfortable loads than my electrostatics, either a single stereo or strapped mono Benchmark AHB2 would work very well, with fabulous accurate/neutral sound quality. For stereo/mono at retail $3k/6k, a great bargain. Incidentally, my Bryston 2.5B SST2 sounded quite different from the 4B SST2 at home, despite company assertion that all the models of that design sound the same except for power. Another example of the importance of home audition in your own system. |
Whitecamaross, We integrated our stereo into a home theater system, with an emphasis on stereo. We have two Pass XA-200.5's (mains) and three Pass X-250.5's (sides, center/sub, rears) with Meridian 800 digital electronics and Wilson speakers. Regarding the heat - it's nothing our central A/C can't handle. Regarding the sound quality, when I took our family to the movie theater - our 2 children both said wow once the show started. I impulsively asked them if everything was OK - and if they like the gigantic screen? They both said they were amazed on how good our home theater sounds! Me, I enjoy music and reading your reviews. Keep up the good work and thanks for your insights :-) |
Kal Rubinson is currently using 3 Monoblock BENCHMARK AHB2's with a Audio Research MP-1 Pre-Amp (And a Stereo Amp) for his 5.1 Multi Channel system. Many people use Multi Channel just for Music since many titles from the 70's have been coming out in their original Quadrophonic Mixes. Lots of great 5.1 still coming out as well. Duttonvocalion.co.uk.store has been putting out tons of Quad Mixes recently for Classic Rock, Classical, R+B titles. |
ricred1, The fact that your ATI523 works well with the mighty Rowland 625 S2 in your whole HT suggests that the ATI may have similar tonal and resolution qualities to the Rowland. Maybe you can try just 2 channels and see how the ATI compares to the Rowland to get a more complete idea of the relative characteristics. That would be a fascinating thing to report here, in view of the vast price difference. |
WC, a few months ago I spoke to an ATI tech about the difference in sound between the class AB signature and class D Ncore models. He said they were very close, with perhaps the class D sounding brighter. On the other hand, Kalman Rubinson in Stereophile said the ATI 524 class D sounded more mellow and likable to him than his Classe Sigma Monos, which is strange since I personally had the Classe D200 for a long trial period. The D200 is a similar design to the Sigma and sounded warm and reasonably detailed the way you have described Classe house sound. Such disparities in reviews shows why home listening for yourself is a must. It is hard to generalize about class D characteristics, since they vary from warm to sterile, depending on so many other factors in their implementation. |
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Class d amps are the way to go with home theater. They are as good as any solid state amp unless you’re talking a serious amp like a Plinius Odeon. That’s a different league. One last thing, I do remember someone selling the ati class d to go back to ati signature. He said he didn’t like it with his revel salon 2s. Too bright sounding. Again, this was him using class d for his front speakers in order to listen to music too. That said, I can only imagine what a home theater would sound like if it had Krell 900e Monos for each of the 11 channels. :) the electric bill and the heat would be serious though. |
lol...that sounds about right. Maybe that's why they had so many issues and had to be bought out. So have you ever experimented mixing the 2 classes of amps in a HT setting? I first had a Classe CA 5100 (class A/B) amp driving my center and surround channels then switched to their Amp 5 (class D) amp and couldn't tell much difference. When used as a music amp (powering the front L & R channels) there was a big difference (the CA 5100 sounded way better) but for center and surround channels the Amp 5 integrates nicely with my Sim 870a. |
ron177" I remember a while back you mentioning not to mix class A or A/B amps with class D amps in a HT setup" That is a silly, unilateral, arbitrary recommendation, guidance, and claim it is based on fantasy, whimsey, and a need by the claimant to appear expert, discriminating, and knowledgeable it makes no sense it is laughable on its face, premise and basis as you have now discovered, learned, and revealed. |
@whitecamaross I remember a while back you mentioning not to mix class A or A/B amps with class D amps in a HT setup so I called Classe Audio and spoke to a tech about it. He told me it would not be a problem in any way (timing/speed), in fact he said they do it all the time. I use a Simaudio 870a (class A/B) amp for my front L&R speakers and a Classe Amp 5 (class D) amp for center and surrounds and it sounds great....no timing/speed issues at all. |
Lets also remember that Whitecamaross' decisions to purchase equipment is based on his real world expectation to resell them at a later date. This seriously limits the uber high costs equipment from his list. Unless, he can "borrow" something. The Dag amps are in no way close to any Krell product that I have heard. They are simply outstanding. But WC's ability to resell them may seriously limit his purchase decision. Although, I think he would find a very short list of amps that can compete with them. At RMAF I heard many great systems. The rooms absolutely sucked, but, the music in most rooms was great. enjoy |
WC, " That said, i have been told that it is NEVER EVER a good thing to mix solid state with class d amps. For example, to have class a amps running your front left and front right speakers and then a class d amp running the rest of your speakers. I heard the timing is different and class d are much faster sounding." I currently use a Class AB amp(Jeff Rowland 625 S2) to drive my fronts and a Class D amplifier(ATI AT523NC) to drive my center and rears without any problems. |
viber6, "I read on another thread that you like the ATI 523. This uses a Hypex 500 module. Could you elaborate further on the tonal characteristics/accuracy, etc.?" I only use the ATI 523 to drive my center and rear speakers whenever I'm using my projector. So, I'm not doing critical listening with it; therefore I can't comment on tonal characteristics/accuracy. What I can say is the ATI 523 drives my center and rears speakers much better that the receiver it replaced. |
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If i were to build a home theater rig all over again, i would totally go with class d amps. for all my channels. That said, i have been told that it is NEVER EVER a good thing to mix solid state with class d amps. For example, to have class a amps running your front left and front right speakers and then a class d amp running the rest of your speakers. I heard the timing is different and class d are much faster sounding. I just would not buy a big 160 lb class ab amp anymore for home theater. I would do all class d. They run cooler, easier to place anywhere, they are quieter, and on and on and on. You aren’t exactly worrying about the damn soundstage width, depth, separation etc etc. That is WHY room correction exists for home theater. IMAX and many theaters are now doing class d for this reason. Class d is just perfect for this purpose. |
ricred1, I read on another thread that you like the ATI 523. This uses a Hypex 500 module. Could you elaborate further on the tonal characteristics/accuracy, etc.? Since WC prefers monos or stereos over multichannel versions, did you try the stereo 522? Any of the ATI's are attractive packages for sound quality and lighter weight based on my reading and talking to a dealer. |
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