pokey77 - no, no, no - say the Alexxs are just bigger.
I didn't listen to the Alexx last time I visited my dealer (Innovative Audio / Video).
If I listen to them, I'll eventually get them and I can't afford them (our oldest son is in college and his 2 siblings to follow).
I'm reaching for the Alexia II's.
Yes - they just bigger, you say it. Jay - you say it too.
I'm going to go mad, absolutely mad - what's sanity? $100k for speakers???? |
Didn't we all agreed to be positive and say things nicely?
I also thought we all agreed to ignore negative comments so as not to proliferate them? |
Jay - first, I agree and learned long ago not to comment on pieces I haven’t heard. The first revelation was my first listen to Apogee speakers (in The Listening Room, in Scarsdale, NY - owner Ron Mitz). I was amazed at the time - and the experience was exasperated because most everything I read about them lead me to have a very different expectation of how they would sound.
Second - I’ve posted this on your thread before, I prefer neutral components that recreate the illusion of the live performance as best as possible.
While I haven’t heard the Boulder amplifier, I explained my impression after listening to Momentum mono’s (in a system and with music I was very familiar with) to another respected audiophile, and how they were very clean, precise and articulate (and had slightly better bass then the amplifiers I used) but that they didn’t have all the natural harmonics that accompanied a live performance and he stated that Boulder started that "sterile" type of sound movement. Now - please don’t criticize me - that’s not what I stated. And this is being VERY critical (but at this level of equipment, I believe we all have the right to be VERY critical).
What I’m trying to convey is there’s much more to reproducing the illusion of a live performance then neutrality, though neutrality is certainly a necessary part. A system has to be engaging and be able to convey the emotion of the music - and for me, that’s what keeps me listening for hours (literally!). And, at the same time, my system ruthlessly exposes poor recordings. I prefer this because with well recorded music - the experience is unmatched.
This is just my preference with my own system - and my system isn’t at the level your system is (Meridian 861v8, 800 Transport, Pass XA-200.5’s, Sasha I’s, Sound Application TT-7).
Another aspect (for me) regarding a system’s performance is imagining. After the "preliminary" system performance aspects are met (frequency response, dynamics, speed, transparency, etc.) imaging is super critical for me. If a system doesn’t provide that reach out and touch it 3D lifelike image (with lifelike proportions, width and depth), then it’s not convincing (to me).
I found cabling makes a DRASTIC difference in system performance and I hope one day to visit and get to listen to your system and switch in the cables that I prefer and get your feedback. What I’d like to find out is: 1 - do we value the same performance characteristics (as you just previously stated - that we all have our own preferences) and 2 - how well do the cables I found to be the best performing ever compare to the cables you found to be the best performing ever.
Like the Gryphon electronics, the cables I use are RUTHLESSLY revealing - and I think that’s a positive trait but it exposes recordings for just what they are - both good and bad.
And - so everyone knows, I became a dealer for the cables I use. I first purchased them and liked them so much I became a dealer for them. But, after attempting to educate and offer these cables to fellow audiophiles, I no longer promote them, because it seams everyone values something different and so few of use apparently use live music as a reference and strive to create the illusion of a live performance.
I certainly don’t mean to offend anyone - I’m just trying to share my own experiences and gain insights from other’s experiences (so we don’t have to do all the trials ourselves).
Keep up the good work Jay - while I haven’t been able to follow your forum daily, I do my best to keep current and catch up whenever possible. Your forum is unmatched - and it’s length and duration is a testament to that! We’ve all gained so much from it ! ! ! ! |
Gentlemen - I wasn’t going to say anything but this just begs me to. When Jay commented on the character of the different amplifiers; - The 2150 monos are the most detailed and ultra-resolving amps i have had that make you say "holy sh@t"
- The Mephisto has the most tremendous control over the Alexx and makes the woofers feel as if a mule was kicking them from behind which is amazing for a lot of music that needs this extra body on the low registers (great imaging too)
- Momentum sound just right all the time with just about any song. They arent as highly resolving as Mephisto or Boulder, but they have a way of drawing you in that is like a "voodoo" effect.
I was frustrated. Then when the comments about the Pass XA-60.8’s were made - I had to post. For me, our systems are not about the character of the components but rather the fidelity which the performance is recreated. Now, unless we attend live performances and / or are very familiar with the performance - there’s no way for us to know how the performance "sounded / sounds" While I attend orchestra and small natural acoustic performances (unamplified) I certainly can’t confirm all of our recordings. How I compare them is hearing the individual instruments played live in our room. I forget which established editor at Stereophile called the Pass XA-60.5’s the best amplifier he’s ever heard! He used the live performance as his reference. And - he should know because he recorded the performance! Did it have the best bass - no, but it sounded most like the live performance. This is what I strive for and what I think a quality system should obtain. This is the point of difficulty I’ve had selling cables. Cables are supposed to transfer the signal while doing the least harm. That is - with the most fidelity. How can this be determined? Live performances is the ultimate reference but other things can be used as indicators - coherence is one. Specifically meaning - when music is played back, is it easy to distinguish what sounds are coming from where. Like - instead of applause as background noise, you distinctly hear it in front of the performers, clearly defined and imaged in specific location(s). Just like it occurred in the live performance when recorded. I could go on, but this is why I stopped selling cables. Because not everyone looks to build a system that sounds most like the live performance(s). Oh - they say they do because they select attributes they think / like best, but that doesn’t always equal the actual live performance. A memorable experience (I had) with a quality amplifier was with the Lamm 1.2 Ref mono’s - these had a slight emphasis in the bass. Please don’t take this as me criticizing - that’s not my intention. I’m just venting my frustration, because I don’t understand how we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on equipment by selecting what we think sounds best instead of making direct comparisons to live music. If we make direct comparisons with live music, determining which component(s) sounds most like live music becomes dramatically easier. |
Jay - I live in the northeastern NY/NJ/CT tri-state area, which relative to the majority of the other parts of our country, has a high medium income and I don’t know anyone with an "ultra" expensive stereo system.
And - while I’ve heard "ultra" systems on multiple occasions, not one of them was set up to perform optimally, not a single one :-( !
So - until I get to audition an "ultra" system in a large room optimally set up, I won’t know what they can actually do.
As a qualifier - the last mega system a friend and I listened to was the introduction of the Wilson Chronosonic’s. Out of sincere respect, gratitude and admiration for the dealer, I won’t comment any further. |
dguitarnut - I almost pissed myself ! ! ! ! ! |
|
Thanks for the update / keeping me straight :-) |
For those that may not have realized - this post was closed because of personal attacks.
Now that this post has been re-opened, let’s follow the Audiogon guidelines and have no personal attacks / disputes. Otherwise we all loose.
Not bashing each other really would improve this thread. If we don’t have something constructive to say, don’t post.
None of us will agree all the time (me on top of that list) but antagonizing each other will only demean and degrade us all.
How about taking the "higher ground" from this point forward?
Thanks whitecamaross for all your contributions.
I hope we can all keep this thread ongoing - we all benefit from sharing. |
Reminds me of when we ran a ss amplifier (Threshold: T-400) with a tube pre-amp (Audio Research: Ref 2).
Once we integrated home theater with our stereo (with a set up emphasis on stereo), we no longer used a pre-amp. It was a significant step up in hardware and the pre-amp actually compromised performance - interconnects no doubt were significant. |
And your thoughts on your best amplifiers :-) |
I'm a no pre-amp guy. I'm always looking to recreate the illusion of the live performance. Ideally - quality components do that without fatigue.
System matching and room acoustics are critical once a certain performance level is obtained. |
whitecamaross - good power conditioner shoot out, I plan to do the same with the multiple power conditioners we currently have.
A point to note, the power supplied to each house usually has different conditions and variations (RF & EMI contamination, power sags, etc.) and different conditioners might work better in each individual case.
Bottom line - we should try each conditioner to determine what works best in our particular home. The conditioner that provides the best results might be a different model for each of us - due to each of us having different needs because the power supplied to our house might have different issues. |
I live in the central NJ area and, and while my schedule is always a challenge - I would like to audition these speakers with a friend or two.
Please either PM me or post possible opportunities once this pandemic subsides.
Speaking of this pandemic - I’m a chemical engineer with extensive experience in the pharmaceutical industry. This virus will be with us for a while - like past summer in a significant way. I believe media reports of a peek in 2 - 3 weeks are more "political" than medially / factually accurate (and I sincerely hope I’m wrong). Self isolation will slow the spread but not stop it. Only a vaccine will stop it’s spread and unless a miracle occurs, we’re at the absolute minimum a year away from that. Remember the AID’s virus and how long it too for industry to create effective treatments - even with the FDA removing many public health and safety restrictions and protocols - in the interest in expediting things? Developing a vaccine to this virus is unfortunately similar in many respects.
Sorry if I’ve derailed things - everyone please use good judgement, be prudent and stay safe. And - it certainly is a unique opportunity to enjoy music that stirs our senses and arouses our souls! |
Everyone - this is recreational and ideally, it should always be enjoyable. At least that's what I tell myself when I'm moving heavy mono's and speakers, setting up equipment, and configuring and dialing in my system!
Let's keep our posts positive and that will go a long way towards keeping whitecamaross's thread great :-)
Referencing cables and system matching. I try to maintain a neutral system, each component - with the best fidelity. System matching absolutely brings out synergy but mating one component emphasis to compensate for another components void will never allow the system to present things naturally and with the best fidelity. Also - I couldn't imagine trying to upgrade one component in a system that's not neutral. Just my experience.
Everyone stay safe and well.
PS - just wanted to ask - are there any female participants in this thread? I think we all agree everyone enjoys great music :-) |
Ironically - the first time I invited my wife to my home, I got a request to help my neighbor "rescue" his son from a car accident and my wife (then new girlfriend) stayed in my home when I left. When I returned about 35 minutes later (his son was fine - minor fender bender), she was listening to my stereo (at that time, a Threshold FET 10E pre, Theta Data transport & Gen Va dac, Pass Aleph 0's amp, Aerial 10T speakers - all electronics having to be turned on manually). I asked if she turned on the music and she casually said yes . . . .
I'm fortunate that my family grew up with and enjoys music, so when I decide to listen - music is played back at live levels. My family sometimes listens with me - spontaneously (though I'd like them to listen more on their own). So - playback volume isn't affected by who is home (I mostly listen at night).
Since our room and speaker aren't grand, smaller well recorded acoustic venues are reproduced best. Our calibrated Quest Technologies digital sound level meter (we have a certified calibration tone generator) peeked at 104 db when I last checked my notes and while these peaks are loud (our room is acoustically treated pretty well) music typically ranges from 75 db to 95 db.
Important to note, with a good system, nothing is fatiguing - otherwise it wouldn't be an enjoyable experience and it actually would be quickly annoying.
I enjoy piano (very difficult to record and play back well but when captured naturally - is amazing / beautiful), contemporary jazz, natural vocals - almost anything well recorded. Even orchestra performances - they're just not as convincing. |
First - thank you ron17, as I read your response I honestly panicked!!! I will certainly be more aware of volume going forward - hearing loss isn't what I'd like to have as I get older.
Our speakers are ~ 9 3/4' apart and we sit ~ 11' away from them.
|
I didn't get a chance to read the last day or two.
Regarding products reviewed in the magazines - anytime a product is reviewed, go to the advertisers page (usually towards the rear of the magazine) and look up that brand. I noticed almost all the products reviewed have adds in the magazine. Have any old magazines - check out reviewed products and see if that brand advertises in the magazine.
Independent of what John A. says - looking at what the magazine does illustrates their policy. If
90% of the products reviewed advertise, what does that tell you? Do you think John A is going to come out and say you have to advertise in our magazine to be reviewed - really?
Find a front cover of a product who's brand doesn't advertise in the magazine.
That's similar to "politically incorrect" ... a statement our USA media created and everyone accepted without questioning. To awaken anyone that's asleep - there's no pre-qualifier for right and wrong. It's not - daytime right and nighttime wrong, or private right and public wrong. "Politically Correct" boils down to doing what offends the least number of people so the politician maintains the highest chance for re-election. Unfortunately, it often directly opposes doing what's right - how ironic and terrible :-(. Good leaders do the right thing ESPECIALLY when it's not the easy thing to do. It's called leadership.
People say things all the time, it's what they do that determines their character and destiny.
I thought because of our deep appreciate of music that we (as a group) would have a keen sense of intellect.
Here we go urinating on each other again (this time I said it in a way so the moderator won't remove my post). The result - we all have urine on us. Really?
State your point without trying to belittle the person with the opposing position. Say whatever you want to say, but say it nicely. The better man / person takes the higher ground. Once alienated, no one listens - and no one wins in an argument.
I'm hoping in the future we can all communicate without attacking each other.
I apologize to everyone, especially whitecamaross for derailing his thread with this tyrant but I really felt this needed to be stated. |
my error, too much multi-tasking - thanks for the correction viber6 :-)
whitecamaross - the issue of communication is being addressed. It's how to address / discuss an issue. "Say it nicely"
Without good communication, we'll never get from point A to point B.
The best thread ever - as determined by the most posts and longest duration on Audiogon!
Let the journey continue. . .
|
I agree with dpac996 - how are we supposed to identify a system's performance listening through our desktop electronics and speakers? The best desktop computer's audio performance is no match to an even moderately high end system. Laptop audio is even worse. And there's the recording equipment (microphone, A/D convertor, internet transmission, and many of other potential variables). And whitecamaross's system has some of the best components!
I like when whitecamaross tells us what he experiences in his comparisons, his likes and dislikes. This is PRICELESS!!!! Who has the time to do what he does? Shelping equipment, setting things up and optimizing performance? I am very grateful for whitecamaross's honest feedback.
I hope I'm not sounding like I'm attacking anyone because that ABSOLUTELY THE LAST thing I want to do, I just can't honestly give feedback on a high end system's performance without listening to it directly - and I'd REALLY would like to one day listen to his system :-) |
I have a LOT of experience with MIT cables - like 20 plus years. Man, I'm old :-(
Anyhow - to me, they sound natural. One has to hear live music to make that comparison. With a high quality system, you can hear the artist's performance and the venue it was performed in.
And - no, I am not associated with MIT in any way other then being a consumer.
I did find a cable I like better, and became a dealer. Honestly - after trying to help people get their system properly set up (including room treatments) and performing to it's best potential, I gave up trying. Most of us have no idea how many people have pretty decent equipment that is poorly set up. How in heck will they determine any component's performance? Many dealers included!
Last time I invited a friend over - he was in disbelief how our system sounded. I couldn't make the investment we made without getting lifelike performance. Just my 2 cents. |
Right now I have to get my speakers repaired but when I / we listen to our system, I leave our Pass XA-200.5's (and entire system) on continuously. Our system sounds drastically better after being on (not in stand-by) for 24 hours.
Plus - it also allows you to listen and enjoy great music anytime you want :-)
Without trying to offend anyone, I invested thousands of dollars in a music system to enjoy the best reproduction of music possible - saving electricity is a relatively low priority. |
Whitecamaross,
We integrated our stereo into a home theater system, with an emphasis on stereo.
We have two Pass XA-200.5's (mains) and three Pass X-250.5's (sides, center/sub, rears) with Meridian 800 digital electronics and Wilson speakers.
Regarding the heat - it's nothing our central A/C can't handle.
Regarding the sound quality, when I took our family to the movie theater - our 2 children both said wow once the show started. I impulsively asked them if everything was OK - and if they like the gigantic screen? They both said they were amazed on how good our home theater sounds!
Me, I enjoy music and reading your reviews.
Keep up the good work and thanks for your insights :-) |
Amen 2fastdriving :-)
I've said this before. The real value is getting whitecamaross's feedback. There's way too many variables involved for us to make a sound quality determination over you tube. |
whitecamaross - so hoping you get the Alexia II's.
It's the speaker I've been wanting to get.
It would be fantastic to get your perspective on them. |
Does it interest anyone?
Are you serious?
Seems like I have to explain something to you whitecamaross:
EVERYONE is interested in EVERYTHING you have to say!
We all enjoy your comparisons, so if this is something you were going to do for your own experience - by all means, please share :-) |
whitecamaross - I had the good fortune to meet and talk with John Atkinson. I believe he's more like us than he is different. That said, I'm fairly certain that he is aware that he is employed by a magazine that promotes our high end audio equipment commodity and industry.
He better serves everyone if he states things positively - equipment manufacturers, consumers, the magazine that employees him and the industry in general.
He is undoubtedly aware of the impact of his statements, and attempts to get the best performance from a product and accurately describe it's character, it's strengths and weaknesses.
I don't think we would want to rip apart a company's product and possibly contribute to it's demise, but rather demonstrate the product in the best possible light - while accurately explaining it's weaknesses.
The only exception I take with the magazine is they usually don't evaluate a product that doesn't advertise in (and support) it's magazine. |
|
Guys, can we leave this thread for whitecamaross to share his experiences with us?
Taking the thread sideways does no one good.
Contributions from others are great, and we are all different. whitecamaross has keep his thread going because many AG members are interested in what he has to say.
Can we let him and his thread continue without the getting adverse with each other? |
Unfortunately, the Wilson speakers are out :-(
They cannot be bi-amped.
I still am looking forward to whitecamaross getting a pair of Alexia's in and what he has to say about them. I've only read good things about them and would like to have a pair in our home - while series II would be nice, I'm confident series I makes beautiful music.
Fed Ex is delivering our front end electronics today (Meridian 861v8 and 800 transport), they were out for repair / upgrade - so my family and I are eager to listen to music again. |
whitecamaross - what you were discussing is called reverse engineering. That is - taking apart an existing product to determine how it was make - what materials were used, how it was constructed and whatever else is significant. |
techno_dude - I'm a Wilson owner, for decades with over $72k invested (stereo and home theater with a major priority on stereo). So, I'm admitting that I'm Wilson biased when I say this:
Martin Logins are a special speaker, I've heard the 15's.
They were paired with a Rel sub-woofer and I was stunned with the dramatic improvement in imaging the Rel sub-woofer made. With the right music, I was very impressed with this pairing - very.
While I'm eager for Alexia II's, I'm baited to read whitecamaross describing his Neoliths.
Fed Ex left us a note yesterday, couldn't leave our Meridian delivery because no one was home to sign. Delivery is due back today, can't wait to get our system operational. |
whitecamaross and techno_dude - the size of the panel makes a dramatic difference in the speaker, and it effects much more than merely the size of the imagining (imaging being a critical issue).
The size of the film allows the speaker to reproduce signals with much greater
coherency, fidelity, dynamics and authority. The speaker doesn't work nearly as hard and experiences significantly less distortion (something I observed with a pair of Vivid B1 speakers I got to demo in our home). Increasing the (active) driver size improves both strengths and weaknesses of this speaker.
What I immediately recognized with the ML's I heard was how well integrated they were (they use a single Mylar film driver with a crossover for bass only). Few speakers match it (in this regard). Think of Quad's (EL34?) and how well they reproduced midrange rich music. Reminds me of the Classic 60 and then the V-70 Audio Research tube amplifiers I enjoyed early in my audiophile journey. Beautiful midrange, decent highs, fat bass. But beautiful midrange - few could match it, none for a competing price (at that time).
Well, think of the Neoliths as a fully integrated version of the Quad's.
I would be shocked if it didn't sound better than the Alexia II's - it is almost twice the price.
We're starting to get into a serious performance level, so evaluating things becomes critical. Small steps make dramatic improvements in the rendition / illusion of a live performance. And in my humble opinion, at this level - recreating the illusion of a live performance is what it's all about.
PS: Even a statement piece like the Neoliths are not without limits.
PSS: whitecamaross - I've never written this much on a single post. We're ALL awaiting your evaluation(s) :-) |
mikepaul - our Meridian pieces came in, Marc Koval did the repairs/upgrades. Marc has become our "go to guy" of all things Meridian since our local retailer no longer carries the line. Marc is EXCEPTIONAL!
Work and supporting our neighbor (who's 21 year old son OD'd) has kept me from setting up and configuring our system. I apologize for the negative in such a positive thread.
I will most certainly post once our system gets up and breaks in.
Have to admit, I'm really eager to what whitecamaross experiences with the Block amplifiers, a quick inquiry from the provided links seems very promising.
We have a great group and an special leader in this thread!
|
Viber6 - I would really enjoy the opportunity to share an early evening of music. I live in central NJ and am finding your offer hard to believe (meant in the most complimenting way)!
Count me in, I am very much looking forward to the experience.
Thank you for your kind, generous offer!
Most sincerely, Thomas Foti. |
I thought this thread was great before . . . .
Did I say I can't believe viber6's kind offer? |
I'm humbled and grateful viber6, very much looking forward to meeting you!
Thank you again for you kind offer :-)
|
I have an audiophile friend that I'd like to volunteer for that role
|
Will that directly wired to your brain be included in our upcoming Jack Ass movie? |
Whitecamaross,
First - a safe, healthy, prosperous and Happy New Year to all :-)
I've heard the Lamm 1.2's, a while ago but the key points still very much remembered. The equipment was familiar - Wilson Sasha I's, Meridian 861v6, high end MIT Oracle cables. The listening session was an extended, private session at a high end retailer in NYC with other audiophiles.
I was doing this because we were going to invest in amplifiers for our integrated theater system (our set up has an emphasis on 2 channel audio) and I wanted to specifically evaluate the Lamm 1.2's.
Before I comment - I have to state when evaluating equipment (and set ups for that matter) that my personal objective (with our system) is to recreate the live performance as convincingly as possible, with my reference being actual live performances. While I cannot compare all recorded music to it's live performance, critiquing a system in this perspective distinguishes components in a manner that is different from outright performance. Case in point with the great Lamm 1.2's.
Our current system, while not near the level of performance of your system / components, strives to accomplish this and does so convincingly (I was astonished when our son played his saxophone in our music room and I play some well recorded saxophone music). Room acoustics play a very significant role as well (being an engineer, I crudely treated our room with good results).
Back to the Lamm 1.2's - after CRITICAL listening to Momentum amplifiers (the most similar to our own Pass XA200.5's but reviewed as having better bass in a major magazine - I couldn't tell this in that system and time frame), Spectral amplifiers (SLIGHTLY dry) and Lamm 1.2's (SLIGHTLY bass heavy).
The Pass and Momentum amplifiers reproduce and allow one to hear into the recorded venue as it was performed - something that is critical to me. In this system, most noticeably the Lamm 1.2's produced slightly more bass then the other amplifiers - a critical evaluation here but noticed by all present and confirmed by those present who were intimate with the performance.
BTW - the previous comments on the other amplifiers were also easily recognized and agreed upon by all present once properly described, except for the Pass / Momentum comparison - which is my own comment.
So, while the Lamm 1.2's were SLIGHTLY bass heavy in that system (synergy no doubt playing an issue here), with their performance being very very good, someone who evaluates equipment on outright performance might prefer the Lamm 1.2's because of their slight increased bass. Yet, when compared to the live performance, this SLIGHT increase in bass wasn't natural.
I hope not to get involved in any negativity that has occurred previously in this thread. I'm a humble individual who respects everyone's experiences and opinions and believe everyone benefits from sharing while respecting each other. I no longer have the time to go and evaluate equipment like I used to, and there are significantly less brick and mortar retailers with this level of equipment - so I very much value our sharing. This is the intent I post with.
While I have a million things to take care of daily, I will most certainly assemble a room and system that I'll be willing to share with fellow audiophiles with a sense of confidence. How long it will take me is a good question - and while others compliment our system, I think we all can agree that we're the most critical of our own system when sharing it with others (at least I know I am). I found myself explaining our system's limits / weaknesses after extended listening - while a few very good friends told me to shut up because they were enjoying the music!
Best New Year to all :-) |
I have a different perspective, it's not to say my perspective is "the right one" though I will say it's the right one for me.
I strive to assemble a system that reproduces the recorded performance and venue as it was performed, as accurately as possible - as if I / we were listening to the live performance being performed in our listening room. I strive for and admire a component that is ruthlessly revealing. Most live performances I've not listened to, but there are a minority of live performances I have listened to, and our moderately high end system reproduces them pretty darn well.
I strive for components that are ruthlessly revealing because I have found these components to bring the most lifelike reproduction of the music as it was recorded. Bad recording sound bad - make no mistake, and at this level of equipment performance - the quality of the recording is critical. Exposing myself, when wanting to "take in" a great performance, I've become extremely critical of software. But, with great recordings - the enjoyment of listening to a lifelike reproduction of a great performance is the reason I've invested in our audiophile system. It's for the enjoyment of (the illusion of) live music; great live music stirs our senses and moves our souls!
In addition to the quality of the recording, I've found with our system the venue of the recording is also another critical issue. Because our speakers and room aren't grand (we have Sasha I's in a 16' wide by 23' long room with the speakers across the 16' wide front wall), our system reproduces smaller acoustical performances convincingly and conversely doesn't do nearly as well with large orchestra performances (which I'm fortunate to enjoy live).
In the past when evaluating a component that "homogenized" sounds - that is, made recordings sound more similar (which helped poor recording sound better) - I noticed specific sounds of fantastic recordings weren't nearly as distinguished. I believe we can all agree that at this level of equipment performance, small performance differences (in addition to being very expensive) can be the compelling difference of reproduced music being involving as opposed to being enjoyable (all else being equal).
Without making specific references to equipment, an example of what I'm trying to convey; we were listening to a very well recorded acoustic performance, performed in a relatively small venue - which was great, like really great. Listening through my system - I mean we all really enjoyed that playback. It was a night I'll always remember. Then, I switched to the new component (which I previously experienced but didn't say anything about) and we heard a new, better defined recorded performance. Images were not only better defined and more 3D like, their separation and position, not only being able to identify what / where they were but what they were doing was dramatically improved. My guests just turned to me (after the performance was over) and smiled as if I did a bate and switch on them - all 3 of them! Even the applause after the performance was better defined and much more clearly distinguished as being in front of the performance instead of being integrated within the performance. We could even easily identify where the microphones were placed. Going back to my system before introducing the new component just wasn't an option. I relate this to when whitecamaross shared with us that he heard new things on the Neo's from a familiar recording - a performer walking across the stage which wasn't clearly defined / distinguishable with previous speakers (which I meant to ask if he felt the performance of previous speaker systems could have been improved with tweaking their set up?).
I still am very aware when I listen to really great systems because when I go back to my own system, I become very critical and - in some cases the past, I didn't enjoy my own system as much as before hearing an outrageous system.
So in conclusion for this comparison (for me and without listening to the both components), the Esoteric seems to be the component I would prefer over the Luxman.
We're all entitled to our own preferences, so long as we recognize and respect each others choices. |
viber6,
Thanks for the compliment - which I'll happily accept from a well respected source.
Your post is very insightful - I learned quite a bit in addition to being humbled!
|
WC,
First - thanks for sharing, because without you many of us (me on top of the list) would not get these experiences.
Second - we each have our own preferences, I explained my preferences earlier - with the request that we each recognize and respect each other's preferences. You explained and I certainly recognize the desire to enjoy more music, especially music we've grown up with. There's a lot of merit to that (as I personally experienced disappointment with a lot of songs I grew up with). Explaining "sweatness" and being clear about it allows us to get even more insight with this journey! Again - a BIG THANK YOU!
I did want to ask a question about this past Saturday's listening session (and I don't find it odd that everyone in the listening session agreed on preferences because I've experienced that too).
Were all the cables the same quality / grade level when making comparisons? I'm not familiar with wireworld cables and that's why I'm asking. The same speaker and amp power cables were always used but the interconnects seemed to be different, in addition to being balanced (xlr) verse single ended (rca). I'm uncertain what was used first, then the platinum 8 rca interconnects were used and stated the dac's performance was more competitive. Were these cables the same as the balanced cables used with the ref10 and - most importantly, how do you think this effects the performance in each comparison? I understand the ref10 provides a higher gain output signal and allows for multiple inputs / sources to be used.
Finally - I would REALLY like to get your input on the Pass - XS 300 because these (and the Alexia II's) are the 2 components I would like to get one day (with our oldest going to college next year and 2 additional siblings behind him - I'm uncertain when that will happen). And, if I'm not being too selfish, you could make a comparison to the XA-200.5's (the amplifiers we now have).
THANK YOU AGAIN for sharing your experiences, it's something I look forward to absorbing within my crazy busy family and work schedule.
To everyone: I hope we all realize to appreciate wc sharing his experiences and preferences, think of what it would be like if wc were to stop sharing with us?
Most sincerely - Thomas (stassoc) |
whitecamaross,
I've pm'd you and offered to mail you at no cost a power cord which I found to have the most fidelity of ANY power cord I myself and multiple colleges have experienced.
While our system isn't at the level of your system, it has stunning fidelity and easily reveals component changes. Our system is: the same brand power cords I'm offering but one tier below their top power cord, Meridian 861v8 and 800, Pass 200.5's, Sasha I's, Sound Application RLS power conditioner (for front end components only), and the previous iteration of top tier MIT Oracle interconnects and speaker cables (well over $60,000 retail). I would eventually like to get our speaker cables and interconnects to be the same brand as our power cords (at the top tier) but don't have the funds at the moment (and our oldest will be going to college next year). I did compare the next tier down interconnects with our MIT Oracle balanced interconnects and our MIT's didn't compare. As a matter of fact, this was the post I made earlier here about a component switch I made with 3 other individuals - it wasn't a piece of "equipment" but rather the interconnect!
My offer includes:
1 - you return the power cord with insured shipping (at cables actual cost) at your own expense. You are also welcome to purchase it (terms I addressed in my pm to you).
2 - you not identify the cable (independent of results) until I clear it with the manufacturer (I stated I'm a dealer and need to clear things for multiple reasons).
3 - you not disclose the arrangement specifics with anyone.
After all is said and done, and I confirm things with my manufacturer (independent of results) you can share your findings on this post.
Please respect my reasons - especially if you don't understand them. I'm merely asking you to delay posting the results.
I offered this so I could get your feedback on how this power cable compares to the Odin power cord you have. I want another respected opinion (I would also ask that you switch out each power cable on the same piece of equipment - for the most meaningful, insightful comparison).
I also stated that this is the cable I found with the most fidelity (truth to the original performance) and may not be the one you like best because you define sweetness (very well I might add) as something you liked.
So now I've posted this for everyone to see, and I hope everyone will respect my offer.
Most sincerely, Thomas. |
Gentlemen - I agree and I've been absent for awhile - because notes of better / bigger / improved or image size or detail or bla bla bla lost my interest because no one mentioned a live performance as a reference. Every hear the sound of a strong / loud hit to cymbals up close? They hurt! (I don't know how drummers do it - hearing loss or earplugs?)
Earlier in this post, I clarified our home system investment was to create the illusion of a lifelike performance. Since our speakers and room aren't grand (nor is the rest of our system), I enjoy small acoustic venue performances - because our system can reproduce these convincingly. And, at this level of equipment - software (recordings) are critical. Significant modifications through a mixing board / computer typically compromises the quality of the recording (hence the expression "straight wire with gain").
Also - in my humble perspective, I prefer to obtain components which are neutral and not match a system to compensate for components shortcomings. This makes for better long term investments (because you can keep your other components - especially cables), and also makes upgrading much easier. And yes, system synergy is very much an issue - especially in high end systems.
All generalizations from this humble individual so please take it for what it's worth. |
This was mentioned earlier, as part of a previous post I made and addressed this issue. I certainly respect the desire for making older recordings sound "listenable" - it's a valid point that
whitecamaross
defined well and identified to clarify things.
I prefer components to be revealing / be of the highest fidelity (also stated in last post) because with the best recordings - the playback performance is unmatched (IMHO).
Unfortunately, this reduces the spectrum of recordings I / we can listen to -
whitecamaross's past reference of listening to old rock (Led Zeppelin?) recordings are usually an act of torture. But then these performances usually involved amplified instruments - so a "natural acoustic" isn't always possible.
Thanks whitecamaross for sharing - I / we continue to look forward to your sharing your experiences :-) |
Gentlemen - consider the background and financial stability of a company when investing in equipment. Sonic Frontiers, Mondial, Aragon and Melos are a just a few companies that are no longer in business. One man companies are another issue.
I've worked in the pharmaceutical industry and successfully developed drugs to market, I acutely understand research and development as well as marketing costs.
The margins charged for product in this commodity are extreme. Unless a company is well established, financially sound and maintains a solid long term business perspective (significant capital, continuous product development, viable long term history, etc) - they aren't a consideration for a significant investment (for me). I also prefer American companies (that doesn't mean made in America). Pass Laboratories is a good example.
I meet and had the CEO of a very successful, well known one man company (mentioned here for consideration) - after asking what my system was, invite himself to my house so I would audition his product. I politely declined his offer. |
Bi-wiring is done from the rear speaker posts on an amplifier, even if the amplifier has 2 identical sets of speaker posts for each channel. Audio Research tube amplifiers have connections for 0, 4, 8 and 16 ohm speakers and use a circuit called "partial cathode coupling." The owners manual directs speaker connections to a single set of posts best suited for the speaker being used, bi-wiring to these same posts.
http://www.audioresearch.com/ContentsFiles/CL60%20Manual.pdf
Quasi Bi-Amping is something slightly different. Sorry to side track your post WC. Human nature - it's why I sometimes regret posting. |
AR Classic 60 - wow! Unfortunately we're now showing our age :-(
Purchased one brand new and enjoyed it for years, replaced it with an AR V-70 (newer balanced input version).
What an amplifier! Imaging fairytale, well balanced - a little flabby in the bass but still a stunner! (for it's price)
Igor from Woodbridge Stereo (now Woodbridge Stereo / Video) would talk about this amplifier, he also shared how to quasi bi-amp the Classic 60 - bi-wire it with the 4 ohm taps connected to one set of speaker terminals and the 8 ohm taps connected to the other set of speaker terminals. This was speaker dependent and I can't remember if a common (brass screw) connector on the back of the Classic 60 was used. It did help slightly, very slightly. If I remember correctly I used them with a pair of B & W 804 Matrix speakers - custom stands which made a huge improvement.
I digress with you reminding me of years past.
From the AR tube amplifiers I went to Threshold and then to Pass. Used a Pass Aleph 0s with a pair of Aerial 10T speakers with great results. This combo wasn't a giant killer but I never really missed anything that left me wanting.
I eventually used a Pass XA-30.5 with a pair of Sasha I speakers before our current XA-200.5 amplifiers. This little 30-5 amplifier is such an over achiever, puts out 30 class A watts and goes just over 200 watts A/B. Anyone who heard it, when compared to our X-250.5 amplifier ALWAY chose the 30.5. Audiophiles, music lovers or casual visitors - the 30.5 amplifier made a dramatic, life like presentation that was immediately recognizable! Many of the qualities of the Classic 60 but with better bass. And, no - it didn't quite match the reach out and touch 3D imaging of the Classic 60 but it wasn't too far behind yet it is a much better spatially balanced amplifier with clearer, distinguished images. Your 86 db ProAc speakers shouldn't be an issue.
Get a used one priced right and you could get out of it at no cost if you don't like it. But that's just a disclaimer - if the rest of your system is up to it, you'll enjoy it for many years! |
Now we're contributing like an audiophile community worthy of Jay's high end 1% system and excellent videos!
Great to read / experience - I'm hungry for more!
Keep up the good work Jay :-) |
