My impressions of the much Hyped LAIV Harmony DAC (I ordered one and Listened to it.)

Thank you for your service.

Right under where it shows the restocking fees:

Additionally, All orders will be subject to an additional deduction of 4.5% of the order amount from the refund due to non-refundable payment platform. 

The 4.5% wasn't 'camouflaged' - I saw it the first time I read that. If you didn't read it carefully, that is not their fault. 

And just because you didn't care for it in your system in your listening space does not automatically mean 'the emperor wears no clothes' for everybody else who bought one - it means that it didn't work for you.

Based on their popularity, it would seem there are many who see the emperor very well dressed indeed.

I don't have any Laiv gear so I don't care one way or the other, just saying.

Sounds like a hassle for a mediocre product.   They had some issues with quality control in the beginning,  better off demoing name brands at your dealer for around the same  money .

A lot of these chi fi brands are crap.  There are a number of quality DACs between $2k and $3k from known brands.  

Harmony dac sound quality best via I2S with quality DDC that bypasses dac master clock, usb implementation on it very mediocre.

That is a lot. With more budget oriented products the gross margin must be pretty small... probably have to charge a lot... but they could be more straightforward. You shouldn't have to read as if you were a lawyer to see what restocking will cost. 

 I would expect a single number... not two that are additive.

There are so many excellent reviews out there, and I believe you pulled the trigger because of the hype. I’m not sure how many hours of burn-in you’ve gone through, but every DAC—including the Harmony—needs at least 250 hours before you can truly evaluate its sound quality.

I had the Micro DAC, and it really did take that long to fully break in. In the end, it became the best-sounding DAC I’ve owned and truly lived up to the hype. Before it was fully broken in, I wasn’t impressed at all and almost sent it back. But another audiophile advised me to be patient, as he had also struggled to appreciate his Denafrips Pontus 15th until it had fully broken in.

Yep lots of hype in the Hi-Fi Sector, Laiv, Hifi Rose, WiiM, Kinky on and on. All one has to do is look at USAM to see this stuff being dumped on the secondary market. 

The company is doing NOTHING wrong. 

lol. this was a fun read but I guess that should give you pause to FoMo buy stuff next time

Best DAC under $5 Grand’ etc. etc. etc.

Should have watched Hans’ review before ordering: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gg9HQvg-u8

Yep lots of hype in the Hi-Fi Sector, 

+1. They have lots to hide. Not this one. This one is 15 years old all-in-one Oppo-95 modded. Can you find any DAC sounds better than this? Impossible. Alex/Wavetouch audio

Eric Clapton - Tears in heaven

Original music

Additive return fees plus a 17 page return requirements document that isn't available before purchasing seems excessive and shabby..

Thanks for taking the hit. 

Wow! I understand your frustration! Sorry you had to find out the hard way. Appreciate the heads up.

Capitalist Chinese Communists!

@larsman +1

I bought one. I find a nice improvement over my previous DAC. The build quality is there too. Worth the money IMHO. I dig what I’m hearing so it’s a keeper for me. Glad i didn’t need to return it.

Capitalist Chinese Communists!

Have you looked in USA mirror lately…

I am truly sympathetic to your situation & frustration. 

There has definitely been moments when I have looked over certain companies return policies & have wondered if the better outcome for them is if the item is returned. But if their policy's are front & center we ultimately have to take the majority of the responsibility. We made a choice. It sucks though. 

I imagine you figured all this hype couldn't be wrong..this $2700 dac had to clearly beat what you already owned. You rolled the dice. From my personal experience these R2R dacs take a ridiculous amount of time to settle in to their final sound. 

I know that break-in/burn-in is one of those arguments or beliefs that are different for everyone. The Pontus 15th definitely made me a believer. I was cursing that Dac for well over a month & had even sent out a couple emails pleading that my unit was broke in some sort of way. It eventually turned into the machine that everyone else raved about. I don't think Denafrips even takes returns unless the unit is broken. 

I have the Laiv uDac at the moment. I would say that it doesn't match what other users & reviewers have claimed. I've been playing it a week yet I'm not freaking out due to my experience with that other R2R dac. Before purchasing both dacs I already come to the conclusion that if I don't like either I will trade or sell for hopefully just a slight loss rather than trying to do the return dance with either of these companies. 

I don't normally take that approach or mindset..but with these 2 certain companies that was the decision I made. Like you I was also thinking that because of the hype I would surely be keeping them. 

I understand your frustration. The term "that sucks" keeps replaying in my head. I think that your story is an example of why many people only buy from local dealers or certain brands. Hopefully venting here a little bit will help you move on..& not dwell on it to the point where it's causing you daily grief for awhile. 

@bubba12 + 1 - seems like they're doing a whole lot of things RIGHT.

Just because something has a lot of exposure doesn't make it bad or 'hype'. As for those being sold on USAM, the only meaningful number would be what percentage of those bought were sold or returned? Anything else is just an anecdote.

And I'm nowhere near a lawyer and saw that policy very easily and quickly. 

“--- Not a bad profit, I’d say. They got $320 of pure profit, and they got their Dac back in ‘Mint’ condition.”

I wouldn’t look at it that way. They can’t sell that item as new anymore. When was the last time you bought something labeled ‘customer returned’ and felt comfortable as new or in mint condition.  The moment an item is out of the box, it’s no longer ‘new’—it becomes open-box or used. That alone causes instant depreciation, even if it’s in perfect condition

+1 @larsman on system synergy and @lanx0003 for allowing full break-in

@larsman  I'm surprised how many people think there is 'profit' for the company in this scenario.

It was so easy to audition hi fi gear when I was younger. It seemed there were brick and mortar stores everywhere. So, yes it is much more difficult and costly to audition gear.  Personally, I like the LAIV Harmony DAC in my system. It was a real difference maker. It took my digital streaming from okay (and sometimes irritating) to very good and enjoyable.  I’ll also say that my experience with LAIV from start to finish was terrific. I’m sorry it didn’t work out for you.  Keep looking. You will find the right match.  

I don’t know if Alvin will go for a bad company. He is a descent guy.

I purchased a DAC right about the time tariffs were starting. It was used.  As I looked around and talked to vendors, I got the feeling that returns, manuals, customer service were not a priority.  These were all Chinese companies.  The difference in price may be corner cutting on the areas I mentioned.

There is some undeserved bashing going on here, nice to see some more reasonable, thoughtful posts.

 First off, the Harmony doesn't commit sins of commission, it provides for a very coherent, musical presentation, this with both usb and I2S inputs. Via usb it does suffer a bit in resolving, transparency vs I2S. So, put together proper burn in, quality DDC or streamer with I2S output and a quality system and you hear full Harmony potential. Anything less is not fully exploring that potential. Now to be fair, to hear that full potential one would have to add cost of quality DDC and I2S cable which brings the true cost up by quite a bit. Now one could also stick to usb input and still have quality presentation, this may be enough for some. 

Now, as for China bashing and this company in particular. I've had nothing but great service and communication with Laiv. I purchased mine used, seller unresponsive in transferring warranty. I contacted Laiv, told them of my dilemma and received prompt transfer of warranty. Second issue was remote stopped working, tested function both via camera capture of infrared emitter and multimeter on battery, based on outcome on both these tests I determined remote defective. So send remote back, they send new one promptly, only cost was shipping to them. New remote failure, put in new battery, perfect functioning. So original remote just fine. IME, this company both responsive and has quality product.

Op and others, you need to put yourself in their shoes. First, credit card companies and PayPal don’t refund the processing fee to the seller when a refund is issued to the customer. Second, when you return merchandise to Harmony, they provide you with a prepaid shipping label, right? Part of that $200 ‘restocking’ fee goes toward covering shipping and insurance both ways. Also, even if you send your DAC back in mint condition, the company still has to resell it as used, at a discount.

So, where exactly does this supposed $320 ‘profit’ come from? Think about it.  Are you making sensible statement here?  BTW, please take back your F word, even if I assume it was not intended to insult anyone.

--- Not a bad profit, I’d say. They got $320 of pure profit, and they got their Dac back in ‘Mint’ condition. Maybe the return business is better than actually selling Dacs?

Others need to put yourself in the shoes of a buyer. It is critical that you come across as a company of integrity and make every effort to come across simply and honestly. They started by highlighting the return cost of each different unit. If that was it great... simple.  Embedding and additional charge as a percent is simply a really bad decision. It means everyone has to "read the fine print" to get the actual return amount. That is too complicated. It should be simple. 

I have no problem with the final cost of return... as long as it is simple to understand. The company, whether intentional or not, is doing themselves a grave disservice.

The proof is this thread. If the policy was simple and simply stated... this would not have happened. It is a big red flag on the company. It was probably not intentional. But there it is. 

Please know that in my comment I stated that I have looked at certain companies return policy & wondered if they made out better with returns. I was referring to a couple instances where it's plus 20% on top of shipping. I know of a company that's 30-35% if you have done a couple returns to them in the past. To me these restocking fees become a concern with higher priced items.

The only time I've had return shipping covered is if there is an issue with a product. I have even returned good working products & sellers want reimbursement for the initial free shipping. In all of these instances I've been aware upfront of store policy's. I make it a point to understand these things before purchase. 

I don't believe that sellers have these policy's to turn a profit. I think lanx0003 brings up good points where Laiv is concerned. Upon my purchase there was no extra shipping charge, no tariff charge, & I'm almost positive they mention the processing fees somewhere on their website. 

I tried to be sympathetic to the OP for the fact that he wasn't happy with a product. On top of being personally let down with the product he was further bothered by having to pay for his letdown or mistake for not reading all the fine print. Which is unfortunate but I also know that the fine print is not hidden.  We as buyers have to take responsibility for the choices we make..when all the info is given up front. 

Personally, & this is just my opinion, I feel that the OP is more unhappy that he purchased something he had high hopes for & it didn't work out. That is where I am sympathetic. His return cost is barely 10% if we add in shipping, insurance, fees. Like I mentioned I just recently purchased a Laiv product..much cheaper than the Harmony. Me basically saying I won't return the product if I don't like it has more to do with me personally not wanting to deal with returning items across seas than their actual policy's. I also feel it will be easy to sell or trade & will lose a couple hundred just trying to return it anyway. Maybe if it was a $3k plus item I wouldn't be so nonchalant about it. 

Anyway, I felt I needed to clarify myself as I didn't want to be accused of me thinking Laiv did something wrong. They have been super cool before & after purchase with me. Great customer service..quick to answer Any questions. They messaged me a couple times over the week I waited for shipment. They checked on me after it arrived. And I do feel bad that the dac did not work out for this gentleman/OP. A lot of us roll the dice when purchasing something we can't get our hands or ears on locally. It's a bummer & slight inconvenience when it doesn't work out. 

@ghdprentice The ’additional deduction’ is clearly stated in the ’Refunds’ section, neither ’embedded’ nor hidden elsewhere.  See below.

"We as buyers have to take responsibility for the choices we make..when all the info is given up front." as @mattw73 said.

Alvin Chee can you response to this thread. So you can tell your side as well.

I think Weng is the founder and owner of Laiv Audio.

@cutthroat - OP - You're running them from a Rasberry Pi using USB!! REALLY?! You need to REALLY look at your source. USB has to have a really good USB implementation to sound reasonable or good. ALL the info you needed to know was right there - you just didn't read it, which you should have done before you bought. 

You didn't mention how much run/burn in you gave the Laiv - did you give any at all?? DACs in particular take a LOOOONG time to fully burn in. I borrowed a Harmony from a friend who was out of the country for several weeks, and connected it to my Eversolo A10, and it sounded very good, and an improvemnt over the A10's DAC. So I read/watched a few DAC reviews and bought a Denafrips Pontus 15th. What a bargain.

I let it warm up for a whole day before any critical listening, just playing Radio Paradise (a fantasic station IMO) 24/7. Then,,, it sounded dull and lifeless! I was very disapponted. I contacted Denafrips thinking it may be faulty, and, in contrast to Chinese bashing folks on here, who've had little personal experience (you in particular oddyiofyl - who seem to delight in Chinese brand bashing at any opportunity!) I had an immediate response informing me of the quite long burn in process with their DACs - so, oddyiofyl, in contrast to your beliefs; a very good support service.

I waited, and was patient. After c2 weeks of the 24/7 playing it was sounding like another product, it was easily the equal of the Harmony, and in several areas better than it, so I kept it and was very happy to do so, especially as it was c$1k cheaper!

After my very good experience with Denafrips, and the Pontus 15th, I wondered what a Venus 15th could do, which was/is only c£200 more than the Harmony (here in the UK). The Venus took at least 4 or 5 weeks to settle down and become,,, FANTASTIC. It KILLS the Harmony in every single area - no contest.

So, @cutthroat - you didn't give it a chance, not in any way whatsoever.

In my experience Laiv are amazing at customer service - I had many questions after buying their uDDC and all were answered lickity split even on a Saturday in a very courteous and friendly manner. I'm also thrilled with the product. Finally yes, burn in time on a DAC is very much a thing - previous to my current DAC owned a Pontus II and HATED it for the longest time until suddenly the heavens opened and it broke in after hundreds of hours and sounded like all the reviews said it would. In any case, OP learned a number of things here, sometimes these lessons aren't easy or fun AND can you really trust online/YT reviewers? 

Agree with listening to Hans before buying.  He preferred the Holo Audio Cyan 2 DAC.  So do I.  It’s difficult to buy off of recommendations.  So many positive reviews and a few negative reviews with most equipment.  You paid a high price for an unsuccessful trial.  A few direct to consumer brands offer free returns but fewer and fewer especially at the high end of the price range.  

Thank you for the heads-up OP

I tend to agree that most of this new Chi-Fi newcomers have some agenda that turns the table to them for financial gains. I feel for you. $320 for returns is a lot of $$$ for a $2600 product. Currently i am using Denafrips which I got from Alvin Chee when he was still doing Denafrips. I guess lucked out then. Still, that is not a good process for a return policy. 

on the technical side, did you do a long enough break in process? I can tell you the Denafrips took me nearly a month before I heard a change. So, I am on the fence as to my opinion if you just needed more time for break in so you can hear the difference it would make, or you just simply did not care and just wanted to return it. nevertheless, Thank you for the heads up. I was also planning to give this DAC a try but after you wrote about your experience, then Laiv losses one potential customer.

I read your post with interest, and it sounds like you were very disappointed. I’m really sorry to hear that you had that experience.

I had a couple of random thoughts and comments based on what other people have been saying, and in response to your post.

I think of Chi-Fi as referring to Chinese-based companies that manufacture components that are sometimes much less expensive than those manufactured in Europe or North America (and sometimes of dubious quality). I do not think of companies that are based in other countries, but which manufacture components or the entire product in China, to high or exacting standards, as "Chi Fi". Examples of such companies could include Audioquest or Mark Levinson, but there are many more.

Laiv products are manufactured in China but the company is not a “Chinese company” – it is based in Singapore. I do think that their products are of a very high manufacturing quality.

Some folks have mentioned Alvin Chee, asking him to speak up, but it is worth pointing out that the OP did not appear to order through Vinshine Audio, Mr. Chee’s company, which is also located in Singapore. The OP bought the components directly from Laiv online, it appears.

Your own (OP) description of their return policy includes everything for which you were charged including, in bold font, the “additional deduction of 4.5% of the order amount”. That cost is not at all hidden, indeed, it was emphasized. Given your plan to audition the DAC, and to have an opportunity to return it, I would have thought that you would have paid even more attention to that particular detail. But it is in no way a “hidden” fee.

I bought my own Laiv DAC intending to keep it. However, if disappointed, I imagined that I would be able to resell it online, probably at 70% or more of the new cost, if I didn’t like it. I also knew that 70% would be of the retail price and not the real cost to me after shipping, card fees, import duties, etc. As a "hot" (or hyped) item, I figured it would sell easily if I wanted.

I think that your assumption about them creating a business model to profit off of disappointed people who return items for a “refund” (wherein they make money from doing that) is completely incorrect. First, they will lose money due to the lack of a market for used items (although their website refers to “industry discounts, B-stock products, or other special arrangements” for items that one is not permitted to return – so there must be some way to purchase returned stock items for a discount). I do not know their numbers of DACs sold globally, but I could only find 50+ used Laiv Harmony DACs sold through HiFiShark, in total (and they appear to sell very fast). Moreover, some of those are not sold, but are marked as “off”.

So, these DAC's are hardly being "dumped on the secondary market". The return that you got was over 88% of the new price and that is better than the few sales I could see documented online.

You said “So, it dawns on me that this company is really planning on a lot of returns. This is part of their Business Plan!” Now I really hate this company and vow to never do business with them again. Yup, they have made me an Enemy for Life by sneakingly hiding their total restock fee.” You then claim that posting your negative impressions serve to all of us as a “Public Service Announcement”.

I feel bad that you had this experience. Like other posters here, I think it might have been better for you if you had burned it in, as Laiv recommended to me in an email, for 1-200 hours (I turned mine on and left it going for a week straight before serious listening). It might have felt like less of a mediocre product if you had done that, but the characterization of this company as one that you now “really hate”, because they charged you fees that were not in the least hidden, stands at odds with the experiences of the very many folks here who have had unfailingly professional, polite, cordial and helpful interactions with the company. I hope that those who are thanking you for the heads-up also read the responses by those of us who have actually purchased from them, posted in response to you.
Tim

@cutthroat 

As it happens, I made a similar mistake recently. I ordered a very well reviewed DAC. In my system, I found it disappointing. When it came time to return it, I called the company and was informed that, as they have a minimum audition period, they would not yet discuss a return. I went back to their website and discovered this was plainly indicated. I gave the DAC more time but it failed to win me over and eventually, the return was approved. 

What did I conclude from this experience? 

1) The DAC did not synergize well with my gear and/or was simply not in line with my particular subjective perceptions/preferences. 

2) That I’d been very careless when scanning the website and needed to be more careful in future. 

The fact that a particular piece of gear does not wow you is not "evidence" that it has been misrepresented. 

If a company clearly states a policy and you fail to notice it, it is not the fault of the company.

And then we have the transferable warranty. Would a company in the business of making profits on returns offer a transferable warranty! I purchased my used unit at aprox. price of retail minus the return fees. Being a hot item and having transferable warranty meant relatively high used prices. Casting undeserved negative aspersions on certain companies is rampant on interwebs, hopefully the truth comes out with subsequent abundent postive experiences. Sometimes better for company to remain silent let end users defend company. Laiv is owned and operated by a number of well respected and long term principals from other well established firms, they are not some fly by night operators.

Should have watched Hans’ review before ordering
 

I don’t know what Hans hears through his ears but having lived with this DAC for six months, I can say that in my system and to my ears it is anything but bright. It isn’t warm nor is it clinical. I would call it neutral and smooth and detailed. I’m not trying to hype this DAC just saying my experience and Hans are very different.

Hans’ review was strange. Short and curt. Almost seemed like an agenda. Frankly I thought  it was out of character for Hans.

edit:

BTW, communications with Laiv was a pleasure. I got a good customer service vibe from them.

Harmony dac sound quality best via I2S with quality DDC that bypasses dac master clock, usb implementation on it very mediocre.

@sns:

+1

@campoly Completely agree.  At the time, nothing Hans said was consistent with other reviews. He finally lost me when he started complaining about the spiked feet damaging his furniture.

@audiostick:

I know, right! They come with brass pads to prevent surface damage and the spikes can be replaced with any number of Audio type aftermarket products from a wide range of sellers if one would prefer. It was just an odd review all round.

Hans noted the IIs connection is superior to the others and improved on his criticism on other inputs. That's a valuable distinction.

He showed the full brass feet which shouldn't be any issue from the opening view of the Harmony DAC in his room. So with that bombshell...

LAIV does indeed sounding it's best with I2S input. The different between USB and I2S is huge. It replaced the Pontus II. The LAIV is not aggressive and attention grabbing like the Pontus II. The LAIN is more lay back, relax yet present all nuances with higher realism than the Pontus II. The difference was immediate out of the box. It got better after few hours of break-in and progressively improving with time. The LAIV brings the singer into my living room. 

The addition of the µDDC bring the LAIV to its full potential. Not sure it was that much improvement from the µDDC or the I2S or both. Soundstage immediately wider, deeper and more relaxing. That combination turns my living room into a blue bar with live concert in the back corner.  

Everytime I read something like this, besides his return issue, is that anytime I here terms like, It blew it away, or the best under so and so dollars, ect. ect., ect......, take it with a big helping of BS

It seems if a individual has the interest and funds available, that a Comparison can be done similar to the one undertaken in this Thread.

My suggestion only really counts if an individual has a want to compare the same two DAC's and if the option to create the comparison demo's  are needing 2 x New Models, being the SMSL D400EX Vs LAIV Harmony.

The suggestion in my view is only worth pursuing if the Vendor is willing to give a little wriggle room on their products. 

SMSL can be contacted to see if a Refurb Model is available at their 20% reduction in price. With the added attempt to have added monies deducted from the asking price, under the guise the Item is to be trialled and sold on if not wanted.

LAIV can be contacted to attempt to have the return monies deducted from the asking price, under the guise the Item is to be trialled and sold on if not wanted.

If both Companies can be convinced to accommodate the requests made for a price reduction. This should create a situation where a resale of a very very lightly used product, will be attractive to a Customer and not prove too difficult to realise close to 95% remuneration. A loss of approx' $180 is looking to be realistic to the Buyer doing trials if they choose to sell on the Products immediately following the trials with both Companies Models. 

As for the reports in this Thread, it does not seem out of the ordinary, that a $1K  DAC has stood its ground will in a comparison to a DAC costing 100% more.

My experience of commercial venture audio electronics is that in certain pricing structures for the broad market, Items costing under $1K will share many similar Traits that are detectable in the End Sound - Items costing under $1K+ - $4K will share many similar Traits  that are detectable in the End Sound - Items costing under $5K+ - $10K will start to become separated in being discernible for their unique Traits, and the difference are ones that are detectable in the End Sound, this is where the Buyer has choice on End Sound that is able to be produced.

Words are far from adequate as a description of the End Sound being produced, the experience of such a device in use is critical to the Buyer to ensure they are not uncomfortable with what is able to be noticed during the demo'. 

If the lower end of the pricing for DAC's are where one focuses and Models are being looked at, the New Model from Topping may be with Tech, that puts it up above the usual considerations.