My impressions of the much Hyped LAIV Harmony DAC (I ordered one and Listened to it.)

Thank you for your service.

Right under where it shows the restocking fees:

Additionally, All orders will be subject to an additional deduction of 4.5% of the order amount from the refund due to non-refundable payment platform. 

The 4.5% wasn't 'camouflaged' - I saw it the first time I read that. If you didn't read it carefully, that is not their fault. 

And just because you didn't care for it in your system in your listening space does not automatically mean 'the emperor wears no clothes' for everybody else who bought one - it means that it didn't work for you.

Based on their popularity, it would seem there are many who see the emperor very well dressed indeed.

I don't have any Laiv gear so I don't care one way or the other, just saying.

Sounds like a hassle for a mediocre product.   They had some issues with quality control in the beginning,  better off demoing name brands at your dealer for around the same  money .

A lot of these chi fi brands are crap.  There are a number of quality DACs between $2k and $3k from known brands.  

Harmony dac sound quality best via I2S with quality DDC that bypasses dac master clock, usb implementation on it very mediocre.

That is a lot. With more budget oriented products the gross margin must be pretty small... probably have to charge a lot... but they could be more straightforward. You shouldn't have to read as if you were a lawyer to see what restocking will cost. 

 I would expect a single number... not two that are additive.

There are so many excellent reviews out there, and I believe you pulled the trigger because of the hype. I’m not sure how many hours of burn-in you’ve gone through, but every DAC—including the Harmony—needs at least 250 hours before you can truly evaluate its sound quality.

I had the Micro DAC, and it really did take that long to fully break in. In the end, it became the best-sounding DAC I’ve owned and truly lived up to the hype. Before it was fully broken in, I wasn’t impressed at all and almost sent it back. But another audiophile advised me to be patient, as he had also struggled to appreciate his Denafrips Pontus 15th until it had fully broken in.

Yep lots of hype in the Hi-Fi Sector, Laiv, Hifi Rose, WiiM, Kinky on and on. All one has to do is look at USAM to see this stuff being dumped on the secondary market. 

The company is doing NOTHING wrong. 

lol. this was a fun read but I guess that should give you pause to FoMo buy stuff next time

Best DAC under $5 Grand’ etc. etc. etc.

Should have watched Hans’ review before ordering: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gg9HQvg-u8

Yep lots of hype in the Hi-Fi Sector, 

+1. They have lots to hide. Not this one. This one is 15 years old all-in-one Oppo-95 modded. Can you find any DAC sounds better than this? Impossible. Alex/Wavetouch audio

Eric Clapton - Tears in heaven

Original music

Additive return fees plus a 17 page return requirements document that isn't available before purchasing seems excessive and shabby..

Thanks for taking the hit. 

Wow! I understand your frustration! Sorry you had to find out the hard way. Appreciate the heads up.

Capitalist Chinese Communists!

@larsman +1

I bought one. I find a nice improvement over my previous DAC. The build quality is there too. Worth the money IMHO. I dig what I’m hearing so it’s a keeper for me. Glad i didn’t need to return it.

Capitalist Chinese Communists!

Have you looked in USA mirror lately…

I am truly sympathetic to your situation & frustration. 

There has definitely been moments when I have looked over certain companies return policies & have wondered if the better outcome for them is if the item is returned. But if their policy's are front & center we ultimately have to take the majority of the responsibility. We made a choice. It sucks though. 

I imagine you figured all this hype couldn't be wrong..this $2700 dac had to clearly beat what you already owned. You rolled the dice. From my personal experience these R2R dacs take a ridiculous amount of time to settle in to their final sound. 

I know that break-in/burn-in is one of those arguments or beliefs that are different for everyone. The Pontus 15th definitely made me a believer. I was cursing that Dac for well over a month & had even sent out a couple emails pleading that my unit was broke in some sort of way. It eventually turned into the machine that everyone else raved about. I don't think Denafrips even takes returns unless the unit is broken. 

I have the Laiv uDac at the moment. I would say that it doesn't match what other users & reviewers have claimed. I've been playing it a week yet I'm not freaking out due to my experience with that other R2R dac. Before purchasing both dacs I already come to the conclusion that if I don't like either I will trade or sell for hopefully just a slight loss rather than trying to do the return dance with either of these companies. 

I don't normally take that approach or mindset..but with these 2 certain companies that was the decision I made. Like you I was also thinking that because of the hype I would surely be keeping them. 

I understand your frustration. The term "that sucks" keeps replaying in my head. I think that your story is an example of why many people only buy from local dealers or certain brands. Hopefully venting here a little bit will help you move on..& not dwell on it to the point where it's causing you daily grief for awhile. 

@bubba12 + 1 - seems like they're doing a whole lot of things RIGHT.

Just because something has a lot of exposure doesn't make it bad or 'hype'. As for those being sold on USAM, the only meaningful number would be what percentage of those bought were sold or returned? Anything else is just an anecdote.

And I'm nowhere near a lawyer and saw that policy very easily and quickly. 

"So, oh F*ck, I missed the ‘extra’ $120 for god knows what reason! "

$2,675 - $200 (Restocking fees) - $120 (4.5% Payment Platform fees) 

The company plainly states the reason in plain sight. Credit card companies charge a fee to the seller when they process your card. The seller doesn't want and shouldn't be expected to eat that fee on a returned item. I don’t see the mystery here.

“--- Not a bad profit, I’d say. They got $320 of pure profit, and they got their Dac back in ‘Mint’ condition.”

I wouldn’t look at it that way. They can’t sell that item as new anymore. When was the last time you bought something labeled ‘customer returned’ and felt comfortable as new or in mint condition.  The moment an item is out of the box, it’s no longer ‘new’—it becomes open-box or used. That alone causes instant depreciation, even if it’s in perfect condition

+1 @larsman on system synergy and @lanx0003 for allowing full break-in

@larsman  I'm surprised how many people think there is 'profit' for the company in this scenario.

It was so easy to audition hi fi gear when I was younger. It seemed there were brick and mortar stores everywhere. So, yes it is much more difficult and costly to audition gear.  Personally, I like the LAIV Harmony DAC in my system. It was a real difference maker. It took my digital streaming from okay (and sometimes irritating) to very good and enjoyable.  I’ll also say that my experience with LAIV from start to finish was terrific. I’m sorry it didn’t work out for you.  Keep looking. You will find the right match.  

I don’t know if Alvin will go for a bad company. He is a descent guy.

I purchased a DAC right about the time tariffs were starting. It was used.  As I looked around and talked to vendors, I got the feeling that returns, manuals, customer service were not a priority.  These were all Chinese companies.  The difference in price may be corner cutting on the areas I mentioned.

There is some undeserved bashing going on here, nice to see some more reasonable, thoughtful posts.

 First off, the Harmony doesn't commit sins of commission, it provides for a very coherent, musical presentation, this with both usb and I2S inputs. Via usb it does suffer a bit in resolving, transparency vs I2S. So, put together proper burn in, quality DDC or streamer with I2S output and a quality system and you hear full Harmony potential. Anything less is not fully exploring that potential. Now to be fair, to hear that full potential one would have to add cost of quality DDC and I2S cable which brings the true cost up by quite a bit. Now one could also stick to usb input and still have quality presentation, this may be enough for some. 

Now, as for China bashing and this company in particular. I've had nothing but great service and communication with Laiv. I purchased mine used, seller unresponsive in transferring warranty. I contacted Laiv, told them of my dilemma and received prompt transfer of warranty. Second issue was remote stopped working, tested function both via camera capture of infrared emitter and multimeter on battery, based on outcome on both these tests I determined remote defective. So send remote back, they send new one promptly, only cost was shipping to them. New remote failure, put in new battery, perfect functioning. So original remote just fine. IME, this company both responsive and has quality product.

Op and others, you need to put yourself in their shoes. First, credit card companies and PayPal don’t refund the processing fee to the seller when a refund is issued to the customer. Second, when you return merchandise to Harmony, they provide you with a prepaid shipping label, right? Part of that $200 ‘restocking’ fee goes toward covering shipping and insurance both ways. Also, even if you send your DAC back in mint condition, the company still has to resell it as used, at a discount.

So, where exactly does this supposed $320 ‘profit’ come from? Think about it.  Are you making sensible statement here?  BTW, please take back your F word, even if I assume it was not intended to insult anyone.

--- Not a bad profit, I’d say. They got $320 of pure profit, and they got their Dac back in ‘Mint’ condition. Maybe the return business is better than actually selling Dacs?

Others need to put yourself in the shoes of a buyer. It is critical that you come across as a company of integrity and make every effort to come across simply and honestly. They started by highlighting the return cost of each different unit. If that was it great... simple.  Embedding and additional charge as a percent is simply a really bad decision. It means everyone has to "read the fine print" to get the actual return amount. That is too complicated. It should be simple. 

I have no problem with the final cost of return... as long as it is simple to understand. The company, whether intentional or not, is doing themselves a grave disservice.

The proof is this thread. If the policy was simple and simply stated... this would not have happened. It is a big red flag on the company. It was probably not intentional. But there it is. 

Please know that in my comment I stated that I have looked at certain companies return policy & wondered if they made out better with returns. I was referring to a couple instances where it's plus 20% on top of shipping. I know of a company that's 30-35% if you have done a couple returns to them in the past. To me these restocking fees become a concern with higher priced items.

The only time I've had return shipping covered is if there is an issue with a product. I have even returned good working products & sellers want reimbursement for the initial free shipping. In all of these instances I've been aware upfront of store policy's. I make it a point to understand these things before purchase. 

I don't believe that sellers have these policy's to turn a profit. I think lanx0003 brings up good points where Laiv is concerned. Upon my purchase there was no extra shipping charge, no tariff charge, & I'm almost positive they mention the processing fees somewhere on their website. 

I tried to be sympathetic to the OP for the fact that he wasn't happy with a product. On top of being personally let down with the product he was further bothered by having to pay for his letdown or mistake for not reading all the fine print. Which is unfortunate but I also know that the fine print is not hidden.  We as buyers have to take responsibility for the choices we make..when all the info is given up front. 

Personally, & this is just my opinion, I feel that the OP is more unhappy that he purchased something he had high hopes for & it didn't work out. That is where I am sympathetic. His return cost is barely 10% if we add in shipping, insurance, fees. Like I mentioned I just recently purchased a Laiv product..much cheaper than the Harmony. Me basically saying I won't return the product if I don't like it has more to do with me personally not wanting to deal with returning items across seas than their actual policy's. I also feel it will be easy to sell or trade & will lose a couple hundred just trying to return it anyway. Maybe if it was a $3k plus item I wouldn't be so nonchalant about it. 

Anyway, I felt I needed to clarify myself as I didn't want to be accused of me thinking Laiv did something wrong. They have been super cool before & after purchase with me. Great customer service..quick to answer Any questions. They messaged me a couple times over the week I waited for shipment. They checked on me after it arrived. And I do feel bad that the dac did not work out for this gentleman/OP. A lot of us roll the dice when purchasing something we can't get our hands or ears on locally. It's a bummer & slight inconvenience when it doesn't work out. 

@ghdprentice The ’additional deduction’ is clearly stated in the ’Refunds’ section, neither ’embedded’ nor hidden elsewhere.  See below.

"We as buyers have to take responsibility for the choices we make..when all the info is given up front." as @mattw73 said.

Alvin Chee can you response to this thread. So you can tell your side as well.

I think Weng is the founder and owner of Laiv Audio.

@cutthroat - OP - You're running them from a Rasberry Pi using USB!! REALLY?! You need to REALLY look at your source. USB has to have a really good USB implementation to sound reasonable or good. ALL the info you needed to know was right there - you just didn't read it, which you should have done before you bought. 

You didn't mention how much run/burn in you gave the Laiv - did you give any at all?? DACs in particular take a LOOOONG time to fully burn in. I borrowed a Harmony from a friend who was out of the country for several weeks, and connected it to my Eversolo A10, and it sounded very good, and an improvemnt over the A10's DAC. So I read/watched a few DAC reviews and bought a Denafrips Pontus 15th. What a bargain.

I let it warm up for a whole day before any critical listening, just playing Radio Paradise (a fantasic station IMO) 24/7. Then,,, it sounded dull and lifeless! I was very disapponted. I contacted Denafrips thinking it may be faulty, and, in contrast to Chinese bashing folks on here, who've had little personal experience (you in particular oddyiofyl - who seem to delight in Chinese brand bashing at any opportunity!) I had an immediate response informing me of the quite long burn in process with their DACs - so, oddyiofyl, in contrast to your beliefs; a very good support service.

I waited, and was patient. After c2 weeks of the 24/7 playing it was sounding like another product, it was easily the equal of the Harmony, and in several areas better than it, so I kept it and was very happy to do so, especially as it was c$1k cheaper!

After my very good experience with Denafrips, and the Pontus 15th, I wondered what a Venus 15th could do, which was/is only c£200 more than the Harmony (here in the UK). The Venus took at least 4 or 5 weeks to settle down and become,,, FANTASTIC. It KILLS the Harmony in every single area - no contest.

So, @cutthroat - you didn't give it a chance, not in any way whatsoever.

In my experience Laiv are amazing at customer service - I had many questions after buying their uDDC and all were answered lickity split even on a Saturday in a very courteous and friendly manner. I'm also thrilled with the product. Finally yes, burn in time on a DAC is very much a thing - previous to my current DAC owned a Pontus II and HATED it for the longest time until suddenly the heavens opened and it broke in after hundreds of hours and sounded like all the reviews said it would. In any case, OP learned a number of things here, sometimes these lessons aren't easy or fun AND can you really trust online/YT reviewers? 

Agree with listening to Hans before buying.  He preferred the Holo Audio Cyan 2 DAC.  So do I.  It’s difficult to buy off of recommendations.  So many positive reviews and a few negative reviews with most equipment.  You paid a high price for an unsuccessful trial.  A few direct to consumer brands offer free returns but fewer and fewer especially at the high end of the price range.  

Thank you for the heads-up OP

I tend to agree that most of this new Chi-Fi newcomers have some agenda that turns the table to them for financial gains. I feel for you. $320 for returns is a lot of $$$ for a $2600 product. Currently i am using Denafrips which I got from Alvin Chee when he was still doing Denafrips. I guess lucked out then. Still, that is not a good process for a return policy. 

on the technical side, did you do a long enough break in process? I can tell you the Denafrips took me nearly a month before I heard a change. So, I am on the fence as to my opinion if you just needed more time for break in so you can hear the difference it would make, or you just simply did not care and just wanted to return it. nevertheless, Thank you for the heads up. I was also planning to give this DAC a try but after you wrote about your experience, then Laiv losses one potential customer.