My impressions of the much Hyped LAIV Harmony DAC (I ordered one and Listened to it.)

@campoly - I saw another YT review where the reviewer was moaning about the spiked feet, but he liked everything else about it. 

@larsman- It would have been better if they had used 4 with one in each corner instead of 3. It can get a tippy. It wasn’t a deal breaker for me. I don’t believe the spikes make any difference for SQ. Maybe they were designed in for the “cool” factor.  

@campoly - isn't it weird how with audio devices, some have 4 feet and some have 3 feet? All about stability, but I don't know how it works.... 

@larsman - yeah, now that you mention it, I don’t think I’ve ever seen any other audio components with 3 feet. Speaking of stability (or lack thereof), Laiv components have 3 brass clad indentions on top of the units so that their other spike footed components can be stacked. Audio component jenga! 

Did you get a new DAC? I think I read that you were looking at Hegel or was that someone else.  

@campoly - no, that must have been somebody else; I was looking for a holographic/3D preamp, which I've now got sorted out. 

I think if a surface is even, the 4-legged component would be most stable, but if the surface is going to be uneven (don't know why somebody would have a platform like that),  the 3-legged would be better.

@larsman - 

Oh, yes. I remember reading the early posts in your preamp thread. I went back and caught up on the rest. It was a bit amusing how most looked past what you were saying about the remote.

Man! You guys are playing big boy baseball. I’m still out here in the sandlot. I hope you’re enjoying your new preamp. I know Steve Guttenberg thinks highly of it.

Laiv is certainly not in the same league as all the gear discussed in that thread but I must say, build quality wise, it has the finest remote control I ever seen. It’s a damn work of art.

I'm sympathetic with the frustration experienced by the OP. Rather than lay the blame on LAiV (or any other company,) I see it as the result of the current HiFi business model; few opportunities for brick and mortar auditions, so roll the dice.

I took a chance on a Harmony DAC (after reading the terms and conditions.) Structurally, it's exquisite, and it sounded good right out of the box. Then it got better. I was so pleased, I decided to "go all the way," and bought their uDDC. It sounded "lumpy" at first; performance took a step back, and I wondered if I'd set some money on fire, but after 200 hours, I'm very glad I bought the pair. The uDDC didn't so much "change" the Harmony DAC, but magnified its many fine attributes.

I think it's a great product at a fair price. Plus, communication with the team at LAiV has been exemplary. They're really nice people. 

Sorry you took it in the tukkus on this one, but thanks for the public service you provided. F them. Better and way more decent manufacturers than them went into Extinction.

Using the OP's evaluation, whom certainly has the experiences and is by this qualified to share their assessment of the End Sound Comparison. Using there assessment only, it does look like there is very good insight into how the Two DACs are to show differences, which in this evaluation nothing was discovered to separate the DAC when End Sound has been listened to using the USB option as the Signal Path.

The OP stated " So, in listening to the LAIV for a few days, I could not discern a difference between my Cheapie $1 Grand SMSL D400ex and the LAIV Harmony. (So, yes, the Emperor has no clothes). I had both DACs plugged into my Preamp and had two Identical Streamers plugged into each Dac, playing in Sync the exact same Music. So, it was very easy to switch back and forth between Dacs and discern any differences. "

Looking at the activity of @cutthroat over a long duration of membership, I don't see anything in the report but a genuine description of their experience had. I do not believe a steering towards the longer term owned DAC as a prompt to increase a interest in purchasing is their agenda. 

In a completely different Thread, a Post has been made where there is the statement " Perhaps a general warning is required - SOME OF WHAT YOU READ HERE OFFERED AS ADVICE IS ACTUALLY A SALES PITCH. "  Again, I am of the belief this is not the agenda of the content supplied in this Thread.    

In a different Thread I recently stated:  

" Investigating alternate Brands or alternate methods to acquire a Product , where there is an intention to acquire a product that offers a particular function within the audio system. Will expose the Purchaser to products more than capable of being extremely impressive.

Even as impressive or surpassing the impression where the option to Purchase is to remain Brand Loyal and upgrade within the Brand. "

I would suggest the LAIV was not too sure of a Volume of sales for their Product, and erred on the side of caution, where pricing has been to cover low volume turnover, which was then to be a high mark up on the Retail Price.

Individuals who buy into Products that are priced for the current markets with Low Volume Sales / High Mark Up, are Customers to be most effected by diminishing returns that comes with their choice made for a purchase. It cost the OP $320 to have this valuable lesson made known.

I have done a short search of the Market and have seen the following used item prices, which in my case will be an Import to incur added shipping and a levy, SMSL D400ex @ £430 and the LAIV Harmony @ £1950.

Looking at the OP's assessment and the current purchase prices that are able to be seen, it does look like a DAC stands out for being a DAC of interest for the individual with a constraining budget, or not wanting great cost associated to a DAC they intend to utilise.   

@gita Which i2s cable are you using? length? How did you choose?

@audiostick Hello.

I'm using a one meter length of HF-X-NCF by Furutech. I would have bought a shorter one if they'd made it. I chose it because every other cable in my system is Furutech and I trust them as a company and I like the "house sound." I do intend to try other I2S cables in the future. Maybe something by Wireworld. Not because I'm dissatisfied, but because I'm a curious audiophile who can't leave well enough alone.

There are no longer any brick and mortar stores closer than an hour and half's drive, so "try before you buy" is not practical for me.

I saw the Furutech mentioned favorably in a 6 Moons review, and also in a thread discussing painfully expensive, boutique cables that are probably intended for EM Labs, Mola Mola, or others in that price strata.

@gita 

I see it as the result of the current HiFi business model; few opportunities for brick and mortar auditions, so roll the dice.

... or buy used and sell what doesn’t work. Or, limit one’s purchase to those products available with return policies.The latter is my favored approach but it’s definitely limiting. When it came time to upgrade my transport, what seemed by far the best option for my price point was the Jay’s CDT2MK3. I'm not a gambler by nature but took a chance and it paid off. One's tolerance for risk is part of the game. 

You also need to understand your level of expertise. Some guys have the ability to make successful gear purchases based solely upon reviews or photos of component internals. And it seems most audio stores expect showroom demos will be sufficient for most buyers. I simply don’t have the expertise to leverage these strategies. Accordingly, I (99% of the time) depend upon at-home demos. 

Campoly or any others that care to chime in.

Wondering if the Laiv ddc can be used with great benefit fed by coax out from the transport and the proper I2s cable out from the dock to the Harmony??

My transports I2s output proprietary. Project RS2T.

Thanks in advance.  

@cymivka - I can’t answer your question. I don’t have a transport nor a player nor a Laiv ddc to try it with. I use a PS audio airlens to feed the Harmony via I2s. 

I do know that the Harmony has 8 possible I2s configurations. Maybe there is one that will work for the Project but I don’t know for sure. 

I demoed LAIV Harmony DAC last week , short story it sound so colored and missing a lot , maybe someone would like it for its flavor , but it is not neutral/natural sounding dac and i prefer my Chinese Audio Gd R7 dac more , it may lack some refinement in bass but it sound bigger , open , more texture and above all timber is correct and life like 

Used it through Streamer and high quality DDC to its i2s input

https://forum.audiogoPlease explain what it was exactly that the company did wrong.n.com/posts/2834895

thecarpathian

Please explain what it was exactly that the company did wrong.

After everything that was written, do I really have to? Would you by some chance happen to work for these particular goniffs in question, would you?

It’s starting to smell a little putrid in here…like rotten agenda. I’m outta here.

@thecarpathian the problem with Laiv is that it’s a Chinese company. And that’s why it’s judged by a different set of standards.  

Strictly speaking, Laiv is a Singapore-based company in terms of product design and operations, but its manufacturing, like many others, is done in China

@gents ,

I politely asked you a very simple, innocent question.

This is how you respond? Odd, nonsensical accusations, insults, and swearing. 

You also seem to be quite confused as to where I stand on this subject.

I find, (as most reading your response will) your behavior to be hostile and inappropriate. I don’t know what in your life has caused you to be such an angry person, lashing out so vehemently over nothing, but I hope you will someday seek out the help you need for your anger issues. I think you may find your life, and absolutely those forced to deal with you, will be much happier.

The DAC Model Audio Gd R7 is used by an individual who has compared this model to the LAIV Harmony DAC, where the outcome is the Gd R7 has remained the preferred DAC model and is to be maintained.

A used Item Purchase of an Audio Gd R7, in the current market is able to be found for $900.

A current model Audio Gd R8 Mk III is a New Purchase @ $2200, a R8 MkII model can be found as used item @ $1000

Costings alone do put other DAC's into the frontline to be considered when a DAC is a purchase being considered.

It will be a long search before reports are found that suggest the R7 and R8 are easily bettered DACs.           

@gita I was unaware that Furutech even made an i2s cable.  Even their website does not market it as i2s.  Appreciate them posting specification though.  Not all manufacturers do that.

If you get the itch to try something else, check out the "I2S Recommendation" chat under the Cables Discussions.  Good stuff.

@gents ,

I didn’t realize asking someone a single question on a discussion forum constituted stalking and fixation. That’s pretty much exactly the purpose of a discussion forum. All you had to do was respond with an answer like a normal person, but instead you perpetuate and escalate this matter with insults, swearing, and off the wall accusations. Nothing you’re stating is based in reality. Perhaps you should just let this matter go for your sake and those around you.

Some may be confused about I2S and it's  use with dacs. I2S alone may be of dubious or of no value vs other inputs, its the ability to replace dac internal master clock with an external clock located in DDC or streamer with I2S output  where the real value lies. As such, the clock and power supply to that clock in DDC/streamer must be superior to dac internal clock to derive any benefit, furthermore, DDC/streamer clocks and power supplies vary greatly, YMMV dependent on unit chosen, obviously a better DDC/streamer will provide superior performance with chosen dac. Next, the native I2S signal path within dacs  not originally deigned for use with external clocks or I2S interface, therefore, the optimal pathway for I2S is to have master clock directly adjacent to I2S pathway. Having clock located in external component and running I2S signal/path through a cable is not optimal in that it adds jitter via reflections inherent in these cable runs. In order to minimize this added jitter I2S cables should never surpass 1/2M length, less would be even better but impractical. 

Using DDC/streamer clock to replace dac internal clock requires the following implementation. In dac menu clock is set to sync mode, this means one is now using DDC/streamer clock, async means one is using dac internal clock. You must also access menu in dac and/or DDC/streamer to properly assign matching I2S pin outs/ins in these two components.

Finally, inputs to DDC should also be fully optimized in order to extract best audio  quality, this will usually mean usb, so all the usual optimizations of usb when using usb inputs on dac continue to hold. Adding a high quality I2S interface is not to be taken lightly, adds complexity and can be quite costly, still, it can pay off vs even very optimized usb implementation in dacs. 

Again, the Harmony provides very ordinary usb input, they acknowledge this by offering Laiv DDC. Finally, other DDC may offer even better performance than Laiv unit. Point is there can be much variability in achieving max performance from Harmony, I2S may be perhaps the least of it, using mediocre streamers will not come close to offering max performance, using a Rasperry Pi doesn't come close to offering full Harmony experience. And I know this from direct experience using RPi as a previous streamer, this with other dacs.

@audiostick Hello,

Thanks for referencing the I2S recommendation thread. By the time I'm done, I'll be needing two I2S cables. So in addition to the Furutech I already have, I just ordered .6M DH Labs HDMI 2.1 Silver. The retailer was very enthusiastic about that cable.

I saw that you had an interest in the forthcoming LAiV Streamer. Me too, but when I last contacted them, they don't expect availability til next year, nor could they tell me if it will be a bare bones streamer (my preference,) or loaded with bells and whistles. 

I can't wait that long, anyway. My current streamer is glitching. So, as soon as I can scrape my pennies together, I intend to buy a Volumio Rivo Plus.

Happy listening!

@thecarpathian -

I hope those deleted post comes with a ban too. I see what you did there.  

@campoly @thecarpathian +1. The frustrating part is that the posts we saw this morning jeopardize the entire thread, which has solid contributions that can be scrubbed from the forum. Appreciate the even-keeled responses @thecarpathian.

@toro3 - Totally agree. Lots of great and informative posts in this thread. For example, I particularly appreciated @sns post regarding I2S and reclocking. It is very informative.

I also appreciate the posts where some have set the record straight regarding Laiv’s return policy and the point of origin for Laiv.

In threads like this one, a troll will stick out like a sore thumb.

BTW, it seems that the OP isn’t participating.

@gita The DH Labs cable has received much praise and appears to be a great cable at that price point.  Let us know how it compares to the Furutech.

Yes, I had high hopes for the Net2 Streamer, but lets face it, the chances of it sounding really good and having a great operating system are probably slim. Not may Streamers have both.  I've been contemplating purchasing a very good USB Streamer, but like sns and other have mentioned, the Harmony DAC is best with i2s.  Therefore, I'm leaning towards DDC and keeping current Streamer a little longer.  I can always move the DDC down the line to one of my other systems if I end up with a Streamer that does not need it.

Please let us know how the Volumio Rivo Plus works with the Harmony once it settles in.  Thanks.

@sns I agree. i2S is notably better. People really need to ditch the printer cables. 

@toro3 + 1 - Let's hope he doesn't come back under a different name. 

I read the Harmony DAC reviews by reputable audio critic and given the price, I took a chance and am happy I did. One cannot decide on keeping a DAC until a minimum of 100 hours burn-in, and if you change around with cables, that will extend longer. It is a beautiful piece of industrial design, excellent instructions and it sounded good out of the box, an improvement over my PS Audio DSD I.

This is a startup company with slim margins in the beginning, and they have to accommodate the fact they cannot easily resell a returned product by return costs. So the aggrieved consumer did not sufficiently burn in the DAC and did not read the return instructions and costs. Not LAIV's fault on either count.