Elizabeth and Prof, thank you kindly for the very nice words, however accurate or inaccurate they may be :-)
Regarding the subject matter of the thread, the bottom line as I see it is simply the truism that as with many things in life different people occupy different points on a continuum extending between two extremes.
Personally, I consider myself to be somewhere in the middle of that continuum. And just as there can be a point of diminishing returns when it comes to spending money on audio or various other things, there can be a point of diminishing returns when it comes to investing time in the process of (hopefully) extracting as much as possible of the sonic performance a given monetary investment in audio may be able to provide. And over the years I have generally found myself sufficiently content with the performance of my system that I don’t feel motivated to go beyond what strikes me as being either of those points, as I perceive them to exist in my particular case. Typically I’ll change a major component every few years, when something comes along that strikes me as particularly exciting.
Also, like TReynolds155 I tend to “appreciate it [the equipment] for the engineering, materials, manufacturing and history behind it.” Just as many may have similar feelings about any number of fine things whose appeal derives from either aesthetics, or technology, or historical background, or some combination of those and other factors.
RV, glad you have reached a point of contentment!
Best regards, --Al |
I'm a music lover. But probably a latent raving wannabe closet audiophile. |
For me, music came first. My family had 45s, albums and 8-track tapes. We had radios playing all the time. Most of the restaurants we went to back then had juke boxes. I used to love to get some spare change to play records in the juke boxes.
I had cheap 1970s record players back then and eventually got modular component systems in the early 80s. From then, mid-fi and hi-fi. But music always comes first in my book.
|
Al,
Yes, thank you.
So am I!
|
It's likely better to be a gear lover instead of a music lover as, since music wouldn't be a part of this scenario, the gear would just sit there making you happy without the pesky distraction of sound coming from it. |
@wolf_garcia Thanks for that, good belly laugh, much needed.
I did like the way my old VTL 225s looked with the KT90s aglow. Sort of a fireplace effect. Very soothing. |
|
My earliest exposure to music was when I was quite young. For my 9th or 10th birthday I received a small transistor radio as a gift. I spent endless hours listening to the then new music of the British invasion; The Beatles, The Stones, Petula Clark et al. Like many families our living room included a console stereo, nothing fancy, a Montgomery Wards rig if I recall, but it sounded better than my transistor, with better bass and it played much louder.
Around this same time a shopping mall was built in our neighborhood. That first mall included an Allied Radio store and several record shops. Allied Radio was my first exposure to Hi-Fi components; amplifiers, preamps, loudspeakers, turntables and tape decks. The listening rooms were filled with exotic brands like Marantz, AR, Wharfdale, Ampex, Dynaco, Fisher, KLH and Harmon Kardon. I studied the Allied catalog religiously, imagining all the equipment I would own if I were rich.
My love of music proceeded my love for audio gear, but good audio gear enhanced my love of music.
Music is still an important part of my everyday life. Over the years I've amassed a good collection of LPs and CDs. My musical tastes are more eclectic now and include classical, big band and some jazz. I own a few "Audiophile" recordings, but the bulk of my collection is just good music I enjoy listening to.
I don't have the large sums of money to spend on audio gear that some more fortunate audiophiles do, but I've always been able to build a system that is musical and realistic sounding without a bank loan.
For the past several years I've owned a pair of Magnepan 1.7i loudspeakers, Syzygy sub woofers and Audio Research electronics. I normally buy my loudspeakers and turntables new, and my electronics second hand. I've found that high-end second hand electronics are a great way to get terrific sounding components for about half the price of new. Vacuum Tubes can be a bit finicky, but the sound they produce is worth the fiddling. My entire system cost me less than $20,000, but rivals some systems I've heard costing far more.
Good music is important to me. It lifts my spirit and often reminds me of the people and places I knew when I heard an album for the first time. So whether I'm in the mood for Antonio Vivaldi, Led Zeppelin or Chet Baker it's nice to know I have a system capable of rendering the music in a pleasing manner.
I've been at this for over 50 years, so am I a audiophile? Perhaps, but a music lover for sure.
|
i am a music lover. i can enjoy music that i hear in a cafe on a funky system or on a AM car radio. |
Music lover first- which is why much of my music listening is now blu ray concerts in full surround sound and big screen visuals. I have had a very audiophile oriented system (VPI turntable and record cleaner, bi amplification etc) that I listened to in the dark, but at this point my enjoyment comes from life like scale and impact more then highly resolved inner detail. Maybe because I am old and deaf. |
Music lover all the way.I would much rather discover new music music than a new piece of equipment, just as a true musician would rather create a new piece than buy a new guitar. Some people get too hung up on buying tools and never really use them. |
If i go to a concert and i’m In the very back behind a column, I can hear the music, but I don’t enjoy it as much as I could.
If i’m right up front, I hear the music in all its glory and I enjoy it infinitely more.
This is why I spend money and time on my system. I believe all audiophiles are music lovers, but not all music lovers are audiophiles. |
If I did not love music, I would not care how well it is recorded nor would I care about getting the best sound I can from my equipment to listen to it. It is true I am never satisfied because most recordings do not sound all that great. And the ones that do are hindered by the shortcomings of my system.
Most hobbies have two types of participants. One goes for quantity and the other goes for every increasing quality. For example, when I used to restore cars for a hobby, I would strive for my next project to improve upon the previous project.
When I was around 10 years old, I went to a friend's house whose dad had a decent stereo. I was shocked how good music could sound. I was hooked. But I started out years earlier playing music on a little portable record player. I loved music since I can remember (age 3). And I have been striving for better sound since I have been making a living and affording to do so. |
Why in the hell would I give a damn if people think I am an audiophile? I have been called much worse. I proclaim who I am. I AM an audiophile. Others may consider it a pejorative so what? I do not. If I could magically hear my music collection via telepathy and not require equipment, I would. My goal is to have equipment that totally gets out of the way of the musical experience. It is a mean to an end, not an end in itself. |
It's always shocking to me to see - when people list when they're listening to on this forum - how plain-jane their musical tastes seem to be. I see a lot of 'Dark Side of the Moon' and '1812 Overature' vs. more left field things; like, say, Ornette Coleman or Gyorgy Ligeti.
That made me realize how, for many in the audiophile world, the end goal doesn't seem to be about music, it seems to be about the gear.
There's nothing wrong with Floyd or
Tchaikovsky - I'm just surpised there's not a wider range of musical taste among in the high-end community. |
|
I agree with those of you who are leaning toward the idea that being an audiophile is a means to the end of finding the most pleasing sound you can afford, because you ARE a music lover.
However, unlike folks like jond, I rarely listen to music in my car or on the go because the quality does not compare to my home set-up. I guess that means I am a different kind of music lover? Or maybe, people like jond are true music lovers whereas people like me rely on their audiophelia to find a standard of music reproduction necessary in order to enjoy the most pleasing sound experience? So does a true music lover love music regardless of how faithfully it is reproduced? Or does being a music lover implicitly mean you enjoy the pure expression of music - by pure I mean no artifacts, no crowd noise, etc.? Which leads me to another conundrum: can you really be considered a music lover if you prefer the "live music" experience (and a similar reproduction) over the isolated sound of the instruments and the performers' voice(s)?
This is more confusing than I thought it would be! |
There is a difference but I suspect that most audiophiles are music lovers to some degree but I'm not so sure that a music lover is always an audiophile. One is about the accuracy of reproduced music and the other is simply the love of music whether it is reproduced or live. I don't see a problem with being both or being just one. Do you? An audiophile is a person who is
enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction. ... Audiophile values may be
applied at all stages of music reproduction: the initial audio recording, the
production process, and the playback, which is usually in a home setting.
A music lover is: One who loves music
I personally enjoy the pursuit of recreating music that I love in my own living space. Sam |
Having nice gear let’s me enjoy the music more. Hearing more of what the players are doing with their instruments makes me feel closer to the performance and to what their intentions were when making it, and nicer gear maximizes that capability. I don’t enjoy listening to the same jazz piece as much through my phone on a plane as I do listening at home though it’s the same great tune! |
Is this a Kill Bill Volume 2 question? Budd:
So, which "R" you filled with? Elle Driver:
What? Budd:
They say the number one killer of old people is retirement. People got a job to do, they tend to live a little bit longer so they can do it. I've always figured that warriors and their enemies share the same relationship. So, now that you're not gonna have to face your enemy no more on the battlefield, which "R" you filled with? Relief or regret? Elle Driver:
A little bit of both. Budd:
[bleep]. I'm sure you do feel a little bit of both. But I know damn well that you feel one more than you feel the other. And the question was, which one is it? Elle Driver:
[pause] Regret.
Selecting which "R" is which, is left as an exercise to the reader... |
I have thought a lot about this over the years when, on a recurring basis, you read an article in a hi-fi magazine that says it is "all about the music." It's not.
I agree with the poster above who said live music is his passion. It is undoubtedly mine. And that passion extends to classical and popular music.
I am unashamed to say I think the equipment is interesting and fun too. When I was 16 I lied about my age and got a job as a salesman at Dixie Hifi in Indianapolis. I put myself through college and law school working at various stores on the east coast. Those were incredibly happy times for me.I still buy a new piece of used gear about once a year and it always spurs long listening sessions. I have no friends who are into audio but they are amazed by my system.
I play mostly vinyl of rock and Americana music at home because for me it provides a satisfying experience of listening to studio produced albums. It does not provide the thrill of a live symphony nor sitting in a club listening to an amplified acoustic duo. Unlike hearing live music though, it allows you to be much more aware of lyrics and the art of production values. For example, Jason Isbell live in concert is a totally different proposition than on record. I don't want to have to choose just one because both are equally valid and compelling.
Unlike fast cars, I get the maximum performance out of my system every time I use it. What else can you say that about? This is a great hobby.
|
I don't think that those claiming that they are music lovers but not much or at all audiophiles are really music lovers. Music doesn't exist without sound. If something doesn't sound good enough it is not music, it is noise in which one can barely capture the outlines. True music lover must be an audiophile too, there is no other way. Another question is how far you go in pursuit of a great sound even if you have the resources and space. That's personal and debatable. |
inna, I have a friend, a fellow musician/teacher, who does not listen to a system fancier than his computer. He doesn't get why I spend the money I do on my (rather modest, frankly) system. He says when he wants to hear music he goes to a concert. I, on the other hand, listen to my system far more often than I go out to hear music (few artists are worth the trouble to me at this point). So, different strokes...but my point is that you can't accurately say my friend is not a "true music lover."
|
Agree with @tostadosunidos
I've been a music lover all my life and have only at a few points during that lifetime did I have access to hi-fi. I'm pretty well versed in rock and roll as well as the blues. I have a fair understanding and appreciation for classical and opera. Not sure what the criteria are for "music lover" (is there a card, secret handshake, cryptic tattoo?) but I can assure you that I am one.
And here's a dirty little thought. Most of rock and roll is made by four to five musicians, often relying on huge amounts of distortion and volume, yelling screaming and wailing, frequently making marginally engineered recordings and many of us think we need special power cables (fill in the blank for whatever you think other crazy audiophiles do) to enjoy it?
It makes far more sense to be a music lover listening through low end equipment than to claim you need room treatments, special wiring for your home or $50k speakers to be a music lover. |
No. Musicians are different. They hear and perform live music every day, they don't need and can't really tolerate hi-fi, I understand that.
Besides, one should not take what I say too literally. I also meant that any music lover should want decent sound too, good enough sound not spectacular. |
The definition of an audiophile is: "A person who is especially interested in high-fidelity sound reproduction."
Is that a bad thing? I think not. I agree with many of the posters who see no issue with being a music lover and an audiophile; and, they understand that one is an extension of the other. I personally find it painful to listen to an MP3 thru a cheap boombox.
I think the real issue is with the folks who inhabit the extremes of being a music lover or an audiophile. The extreme music lover becomes an obsessive collector who has to own everything ever released by their favorite artists, including boxed sets, remasters, colored vinyl and bootlegs. I have a couple of friends afflicted with this condition and they have massive credit card debt as a result. On the other hand, the extreme audiophile tends to own a turntable that is worth more than my entire audio system, car or even my house. I guess these folks have lost sight of the "law of diminishing returns." |
Thanks for the post. Here's my criteria. If you prefer live over recordings. If you'll listen to bootlegs to get the knowledge of the band. I've given copies of shows that were great performances or shows that person was at and they wouldn't listen to them because of the sound quality. Listening to a recording for a minute and deciding that it's no good just because of the sound quality. That's when I know where their heart is. Music's the best! |
It's about the music first, then the system. The music is foundational, but hearing it better increases the enjoyment.
If I were to go broke tomorrow, I'd find a way to listen to music. The fidelity of my sound system would be missed, but having experienced quality sound, my mind would fill in the gaps.
|
Im thinking about that will let you know asap. |
What in the world could be wrong with either audiophile or music lover? It’s what people want and enjoy, and both seem pretty harmless at worst, and arguably pretty beneficial overall.
That being said, I have too many symptoms to deny being an audiophile, all the while telling people (and myself), honestly, that my audio pursuit is because I love the music. But, as others have observed, one does get to the end of the audiophile system-improving obsession (word chosen after careful deliberation and self-observation), where I am now. It’s been a productive pursuit--my system now makes the music sound beautiful and I love it. I’ve always envied those advanced souls (meant sincerely, not sarcastically) who’d enjoy the music if it was played on a transistor radio, feeling, honestly, that they know something I don’t. But I’m not one of ’em.
Let’s everybody keep enjoying.
Jim Heckman
|
I’d like to modify my original post and concur with several of the contributors, including hifiman5 and the learned Prof, that seeking good sound and music are not mutually exclusive. Just as long as one doesn’t don’t get caught up in the addictive trap. I have to admit that I still listen for the sound at least as much as the music. Maybe it’s because my thoroughgoing search is over and I’ve found equipment that really does both well.
|
Maybe the answer lies very simply in your audio lifestyle. I would postulate, that if you have 1000, 5000 or 8000 posts in the many audio type forums, maybe you're an audiophile whether you want to admit it or not.
If on the other hand, you spend the majority of your time enjoying your music regardless of type, while enjoying a glass of your favorite beverage, while reading a good book, then you are more than likely a music lover!!!
If every time you enter your listening abode, whether alone, with your significant other, or your friends and put on the same albums/cd/stream to highlight your great system, then you probably have your answer....
Whether you like the answer or not, it is what it is... Happy listening!!! And a happy Memorial Day weekend to all... |
I am a music lover first. I have 7,000 78s and listen to acoustical recordings as well. My preference for sound extends back to hot sounding 78s from 1925 on. The performance is everything. I've sold 18,000 records in the past 35 years because I made a rule not to keep anything that I wouldn't enjoy listening to 3 times a year.
Yes, I have a high end system but rarely change equipment, mostly adding tweaks to the room and power system.
Most of my music buddies are snobs to some extent. They only want to listen to stereo recordings, some just to modern stereo recordings. They are shocked at how good 50's mono LPs can sound but don't want to listen to it at home (exceptions-Frank/Oregonpapa & Robert, our good friend). Anoth friend only listens to LPs and another two only listen to CDs. I enjoy all solid formats except cassettes (haven't had the desire to stream or download music with 42,000 LPs/78s/CDs/tape in my collection). |
I listen to live music, perform and record with several choirs, a chamber group and a full orchestra. If I don't like the music, it doesn't matter to me how good it sounds. |
@briangingrich There’s nothing wrong with Floyd or Tchaikovsky - I’m just surpised there’s not a wider range of musical taste among in the high-end community. My own observations are completely at odds with yours. I’ve found over the years that audiophiles tend to have a wider range of musical interests than the average person. Personally my collection contains classical of many sorts, various types of jazz, fusion, rock, prog rock, folk, disco, funk, electronica, pop...you name it. I’ve found that most audiophiles I know have a similarly expanded interest in music, often because their interest in sound, and their systems, was a good vehicle for exploring a wider range of music. |
rvpiano I have to admit that I still listen for the sound at least as much as the music. While I do understand the gist of what you are getting at there, I think it bares reflection that listening to music is to also love the sound. The musicians pick their instrumentation for how the instruments sound, because it is as much an influence on the music as the choice of notes. It can be quite hard to separate the enjoyment of "music" from "sound." I can listen to music as pleasant "background" from any number of "crappy" systems. But to be compelled to sit down and directly concentrate on the music, I need a reason to do so. Yesterday I heard a bunch of my LPs played back on a big, full-range pair of $20,000 speakers. I heard the music, but wasn’t compelled by the presentation to enjoy it nearly as much as I know I can. Throwing the same tracks on my system, dialed to my own preferences, and even though I happened to be using at the moment an old, tiny Spendor S3/5 monitors, I was just swooning to the music and sound in a way that just escaped that other system. Once the timbre and presentation of the music sounded "right" to my brain, I could just relax and luxuriate not only in the melody and beat, but in the sensuousness of the sound, which increased my involvement in the music. |
Music is like heroin. It doesn’t do anything unless it’s the real thing. A junkie knows right away when somebody’s trying to scam him. Well, maybe he doesn’t. How the hell would I know?
An ordinary man has no means of deliverance,
|
I’m a music lover period.......
I bought mu current very high-end system 7 years ago and I haven’t replaced a single component. I’ve added a 2nd pair of amps, an atomic clock and a cement rack in year one - did an “A-B test” for each of these, but I haven’t upgraded/changed the turntable, CD player etc. for different ones.
I don’t know or wanna know how al of this works - it’s a black box. (Just like when I go to buy a new car - salesman always wants to pop the hood and explain everything - I tell him, “don’t bother - I don’t care what’s under the hood - I’ll take a test drive and decide)”
|
Whether I'm a music lover or audiophile is situational. I've always enjoyed music played on most any old system because I'm not expecting quality sound.
I can become an audiophile at live amplified concerts and audiophile systems. I've always been a critical listener at live concerts, in the vast majority of cases sound is horrendous, way too loud, astringent mids and highs! Too many sound reinforcement companies don't know what they're doing. An audiophile friend owns a sound reinforcement company, he does sound right, it can be done. I suppose the only thing that's ever made the bad sound event enjoyable was the ganja, alcohol and good friends. On the other hand acoustic instruments and minimal sound reinforcement can make for a very enjoyable qualitative experience. I can also go into critical mode when listening to audiophile systems, its the expectation of quality that lends itself to qualitative judgements. It took many years of system building to get long term musical enjoyment from my own system. In the early years I would be happy with quality for very short periods of time. These periods of enjoyment increased in time as my system got better, to the point where today I'm never dissatisfied with the sound.
Still, despite no longer being dissatisfied, I continue to tweak my basic system, I always think I'm finished, and yet I find another thing to improve. As of today I can't think of a single thing I want to change, but based on past experience I can expect I'll be changing out something down the road.
And so it seems I'm finally a music lover when listening to my system, yet subconsciously still analyzing sound quality. I suspect many of us are in the same boat, coincidental music lovers and audiophiles when listening to our finely tuned systems.
|
Heroin does take you to a certain place. Where does music take you ? And surely good sound facilitates that. |
Neil Young put it best- sound matters. And to what degree one chases the gear to get to the quality being sought- well it's a matter of taste and priorities. To end, it's a blessing when as another wise old musician said-you get what you need! |
Prof,
Although I have several versions (sometimes double figures) of the same classical piece, I’ll often pick the best performance over the best sounding one to listen to. |
I'm with you rvpiano, I'm with you. Great example, that fellow on the talent show singing opera, which it doesn't matter that I'm watching a YouTube video on a laptop he does it so beautifully it brings tears to my eyes. Then for kicks one time after reading the comments people saying he's better than the pro's, nuh uh he's not, I went and watched a whole bunch of them singing the same thing. Sorry, I'll go with the amateur. Dude put his heart and soul into it. What its all about. |
Sitting here pondering the OP wondering and debating with myself on where I fall on that question, then I take a look in on someone like folkfreaks system and am just in awe of his dedication and precision of his assembled system and can only imagine how it must sound, so with that said I believe myself to be a music lover first who has followed some basic know how and have a really nice system to listen to it on. The last change made to my system was 20 months ago, replacing VTL amps that were 20 years old and in need of repair with a pair of new Quicksilver M120s with the KT150 upgrade, also had my ZYX Universe rebuilt, so just maintaining. |
Both. - Classical Music Lover, Sinatra & Jazz afterwards....Sadly, audiophile has become too expensive, but love multi-channel SACDs.
|
Sometimes I have to listen to a recording twice....once for the music, and then for the sound
|
Music lover than audiophile. I can’t live without my music but I could live without my stereo.
|
I'm a musician, and it seems the ration of audio geek musicians to musicians who care about their hifi rigs is about the same as the general public. Blanket comments about what musicians think are silly, as based on my experience they're utterly diverse. Perhaps Inna needs to get out more. |
I must admit, despite what I’ve previously said, that lately I’ve been able to get into the music better with good sounding recordings. |
In fact, a record is an artifact in itself. Often, a good performance can be under appreciated because of bad sound and conversely, a so so performance might be more attractive because of good sonics.
My original post was written because of my proclivity to getting too caught up in the sonics. |
