12-21-14: Mitch2
"Unbelievable profit margins" does not make me think of the audio industry. It does exist in cable-land though, if you count that as part of the audio industry. |
The "crazy profit margins" are still very much relative within the audio industry. Some companies continue to offer top-drawer products and services at realistic prices and some are preoccupied with the stratosphere. And you could lay as much blame at the feet of those enthusiasts who want to be elitists, buy into the whole "excess" thing and pretty much brag about how much money they've spent as much as you could blame the companies who have found a way to cater to them. But, this is still the land of the free and that's really ok to me in that as long as there are those companies indulging in excess (in terms of both image AND profits), then I'm betting that will continue to create plenty of room for the companies that can competently cater to the rest of us...for just as long as we ourselves continue to buy. |
I have no problem with people making money, but crazy claims and unbelievable profit margins exist in this arena "Unbelievable profit margins" does not make me think of the audio industry. Land development, automotive manufacturing, filmmaking, computer software or site development, defense manufacturing, energy exploration and transport (oil and gas), are some industries where "unbelievable profit margins" are possible but, for the most part, not audio. "Crazy claims" you can find pretty much anywhere. |
So, because his company is successful, the products must be a poor value? I learn something new here every day. I think that is not the point. I think he is saying that PS is resting on their laurels. Terms like "prefectwave" are disingenuous because there is nothing perfect, ever. I have no problem with people making money, but crazy claims and unbelievable profit margins exist in this arena, and it is not good for anyone except the people making the money. |
Anybody who has amassed a bankroll like That is probably not on the "leading edge" of value. So, because his company is successful, the products must be a poor value? I learn something new here every day. |
I think I agree that Wilson is a candidate. That company hasn't really seemed to make any sort of attempt at innovation since they began and look to me like they intend to get by on pretty much pedigree alone. Maybe the worst actor to me is PS Audio. They've always strived to be a second-rate company. They spend all their efforts looking at what the competition is currently up to and then try to design an everything-including-the-kitchen-sink model or version that they think will trump everything in the market. But, what usually happens is that somebody else somewhere brings to market shortly afterward a new twist, improvement or innovation to it that Macgowan's ee's didn't foresee. Then they have to start over with an all new version that surely this time can't be beat. But, it's the other companies they seem to be stealing ideas from that apparently drive PS Audio forward. Their Perfect Wave DAC and transport were well enough received for a while, but in the digital arena no foothold lasts for long it seems. About the only other thing they did that audiophiles took to were the Power Plants...very good for their day (apart from the wattage limitations), but other companies have since outdone those designs as well. But (and I'm venting here), the really distasteful part for my money was seeing the focus of PSA newsletters slowly change, first, from informative updates on products, then to trips overseas to foreign production facility tours and finally to an absolutely insane level of Paul's and his family's indulgences on such extended vacations. One month it's wine-making in France, the next climbing peaks in Tibet or hunting tigers in India...or something equally ridiculous. I mean, I remember back in the day when he didn't seem like he could afford a life like that. So, how are we to assume he has since come across that kind of capital?? I've had to work pretty dang hard for my audio dollars. Are those activities the kinds of things I'm being asked fund?? But, if anything, he seems, via the newsletters, to be marketing all that back to us. "Hey, don't you want to buy your gear from somebody as successful as this guy? If you do, then you can feel like somebody, too!" Really, seriously?? I think I'll pass... Anybody who has amassed a bankroll like That is probably not on the "leading edge" of value. I know that'll probably offend somebody somewhere, but I'm just calling it like I see it. |
U HAVE STIRRED UP A CROSS BETWEEN PANDORAS BOX AND A HORNETS NEST WITH THIS POST.
Personally I flipping hate the single ended flea power with horn speaker brigade.
Likewise to my ears I just do not get Zanden or KSL - I may be in minority here.
Out of interest Syntax - you have a Transfiguration Temper - isn't the Proteus an improvement on that? |
I have always thought that MIT and Transparent cables are overrated. I have tried both in my system and they are very overpriced. I have cables from Clear Day that smoke both those cables and is about 75 percent less. |
Transfiguration Proteus (Dead, Flat, Thin and so far away from the real thing like the distance from Earth to Mars) |
AVA............merry-go-round |
Hello Ebm. Nice to hear from you dude!! Keep on truckin!! |
|
Something's worth whatever the buyer pays for it, right? And something's worth whatever joy the listener gets out of it.
Are Bose overrated? Not really. For millions of Americans, they represent a comfortable level of fidelity for what they cost. Same for B&W or ML. Most people don't care about tubes or IC's or how fast a speaker is. They want sound that fulfills them.
And like any devoted hobbyists, we're nitpicking through gravel to find the perfect rock.
I think a better question is:
Some underrated audio manufacturers?
Reference 3A
Blue Circle |
|
I can easily put my Aerial 10t against Vandy 5a. I haven't heard 7's yet, but kinda have the same feeling that they won't be upto par for the money. 1c is probably their best model in terms of price per performance, but the rest is total 'rest'. |
Well I'm in deep trouble here, I think the 802D is the most underrated speaker, and the most undeservedly bagged speaker in the world, and I'm astounded on a daily basis just how good the MXR/KXR combination is.
Final comment I found the 2CE to be amazing, and couldn't believe the price, at a time I was enthralled by my CLS2z's.
So in conclusion most of my favourite brands have been listed as overrated!! big big trouble I must be tone deaf and deluded :) |
I know Vandersteen(1/2/3) owners could care less what I think. The reason I posted was not to bash Vandersteen Audio but to let potential buyers know there are better options at each price point(1150/2400/4500). The 2Ce Signature has the reputation of being a giant killer which IMO is an outdated assessment. I have stated before the Vandersteen 5A(currently carbon) is a great last purchase type speaker, so we know what Vandersteen is capable of. I have not heard the Quatro or Treo speakers so I don't know if there is a "trickle down" effect with these models. Lastly I think Vandersteen needs to update(if they value sound over profit) there entry level offerings to deserve the "giant killer" status. |
Agree totally zd. To be quite frank I've heard different Vandy set-ups range from abysmal (who would ever consider them) to sublime, they can be real chameleons. Set-up and room conditions are critical. They continue to be big sellers for a reason but will not be suitable for everyone but to me come closer than many, IF set-up correctly. I say they ARE NOT overrated because of potential for money spent. |
I do hate to slam the big name manufactures. Please some one else do it and I need a laugh. |
"10-01-14: Dayglow
Vandersteen Audio-1/2/3 models lack speed and resolution but keep selling?"
Vandersteen is a fairly unique company. Most of the time, people aren't setting them up right. The speakers are capable of very high resolution. I put my Vandersteen Model 2's next to my friends B&W 802d's. After going back and forth, we came to the conclusion that my Model 2's have just as much, if not more detail. I also have a pair of Wilson's in my 2'nd system, and the 2's easily outperform them as well. If anyone is interested, download some owners manuals off Vandersteens web site and read through them. They explain in detail, what's different about their speakers and how to get best sound. |
Dayglow , I agree with you totally ! |
Manley jumped their prices a lot all at once a while back.
Are they worth the new prices? They seemed to be bargains for the old. |
Vandersteen Audio-1/2/3 models lack speed and resolution but keep selling? Bryston-Are you buying because of the warranty or do you need an amp for your subwoofer? Esoteric-Can find more natural digital playback for much less. |
It is hard to call low-cost gear overrated, IMO. Nevertheless, there are a couple of names that come to mind here: ASI cables and Grover Huffman cables. Too much hoopla for too little performance.
It is easier to call high-priced gear overrated. A number of items come to mind here: the EMM CDSA SE CD player was a $11,500 total dud. IMO, it simply rode on the wake of the name Ed Meitner. Gabriel Gold cables were a total dud. Some of their prices have since come down to visit us on planet Earth. The AMR DP-777 blew up twice. They had design problems but instead of disclosing this to customers they decided to cover up the fact.
The Berkeley 1 DAC. Never mind what the revered Robert Hartley has to say. I have the feeling he may just be cutting and pasting to save writing time. Like Ted Denney for his Synergistic Research Tesla series cables -- and many other products including the famous Cells. In any case, he needs to start using spell check. He continues to write then in place of than. And he needs to use "increase font size" on his site that continues to use font size 4 -- maybe to prevent folks from reading the fine print. |
Tara Labs used to offer once affordable and reasonably priced products. Then they 'upgraded' and became full of snit. |
07-04-14: Harri009
Every Wilson speaker under the Maxx line. + 1! |
At this point I'd have to say Ayon and Wilson. And by virtue of Audiolabyrinth's understated claims that Taralabs is the mythical Shanri La, the holy grail of cables which will transform $690 speakers into $35,000 reference tranducers, i'll add Taralabs to the list. |
09-22-14: Geoffkait
Strange, nobody has mentioned Sony or Panasonic which I think both make a very wide range of excellent products It's really contradictive to the subject. Overrated is "higher rated" per given performance. Wide range of excellent products that are indeed excellent can't be considered overrated. |
Strange, nobody has mentioned Sony or Panasonic which I think both make a very wide range of excellent products. |
Bose and B&W are probably the two that own more market share than they probably should in an ideal world. |
Just navel gazed the posts and one major point still sticks out that has already been highlighted in this blog: " overrated how and/or compared to ?...... " And ..." Thus overrated ..... because why?"
Intuitively any such posts are going to be absent of any empirical terms of reference that I can think of, and default to heavily biased personal value judgements
OK .. Fair enough.... But instead of just casually listing a manufacturer and its piece , let's use a rifle instead of a shotgun and actually frame the opinion under these general terms that boil down to,
- Here's what I heard / looked at,
- Here's what I considered, and
- Here are my conclusions.
Now we can have a meaningful discussion IMO. |
I used to mod Xovers I have so friend thst has Harbeth 30.1
What a joke the whole Xover parts are pathetic the capacitors are maybe $4 each if you are lucky ,not even an air core inductor
This is why they are very limited on output the inductors snd capacitors
Get over saturated. And the cabinet,.reflection city look how wide it is.
If it were not for the midrange material they would not be anything .the tweeter us not seas best by any means.a $$1,000 to build maybe ,for a speaker charged $6500
Thatis really taking it to the consumer !! |
Magico is a definite. I want to know if the reviewers would like them without the advertising dollars. I have a VPI and not a fan of them, either. |
It could be anything. That's why I don't buy anything anymore without an audition. It's too difficult to put together a system based on reviews or reputation. I bought the X-05 at a great price from a local guy who upgraded to the X-03. It was in mint condition, looked beautiful and I really wanted to love it. Oh well. |
|
Chayro, wouldn't it be great to be there when the reviewers
were listening to the X-05 piece and hear what they were
hearing? Maybe they have no ability to discern SQ? Or, is
lack of synergy and system dependency the overriding factor in
the poor performance of an otherwise quality component that
you heard in your system? The sound quality of mid and high in
components from system to system is mystifying to me. |
That would be a good question, except for the fact that only a tiny percentage of the people here have enough experience with the super high-priced stuff to put forth cogent arguments. It's much more fun to just say why you believe the stuff you can't afford isn't as good as claimed. However, now that I think of it, I had an Esoteric X-05 CD/SACD player that I thought was abysmal. Just flat, no depth and absolutely not analog-sounding as the Stereophile review said it was. I've never heard anything higher up in the line, so I can't say the entire brand is overrated, but that box certainly was, IMO. |
"07-15-14: Plasmatech
I would have preferred a more focused question of which manufacturers over-promise and under-deliver, and cite at least two instances of this occuring."
Its an interresting question, but how do you define over-promise and under-deliver? If you're talking about sound quality, for example, its subjective. I don't see how you can define something like that unless you rate things on an individual basis. |
Plasmatech your more focused question would make for an excellent thread! |
I would have preferred a more focused question of which manufacturers over-promise and under-deliver, and cite at least two instances of this occuring. |
What about if the word Reference is something other than the first? Is it still BS, or is it credible? |
Any time I read and advertisement or read about a product that starts with the word" Reference" I know it is bull%$##@ |
I have heard Zu, Wilson, and a bank of speakers from Focal and each of these manufacturers are what I call 0.5 to 0.33 brands. That is, they are mid-level competitive against competitors at 1/2 to 1/3 their cost. So... a 4K Focal speaker tends to compete well against $1500 - $2000 speakers but is way over-priced . These three brands are very overrated. |
|
+1Syntax,Burmester, very disappointing sound quality given their
reputation and praise. It was very hifi and not natural at all. |
Runnin: So you're saying that a manufacturer should buy ad space and say "buy my stuff because it's so ordinary."? |
|
Dweller, I think that "performance at half the price" is only part of the equation in a value rating system. It's in the nature of our free enterprise system that someone is always trying to deliver a better mousetrap for a lower price. Often, they succeed in the beginning. The history of the high end is a long list of companies that offered good sounding products but ultimately failed because they underestimated expenses and couldn't grow their business past a certain threshold. There are so many "high value" audio products that are shoestring operations run by one guy and little more. You bet that business model can initially undercut the pricing of Audio Research, Conrad-Johnson and other established players. Good luck trying to get replacement parts and service ten years from now though. Maybe that doesn't matter to some consumers but it does to others. |
I'd submit that when a manufacturer rates their gear at a certain level of performance, and the gear does not deliver, then they are over rating it. |
I think overrated is when the component-in-question's performance can be had elsewhere for half the price.
Look-and-feel is another issue. |
