MM, MC, or MI cartridge

@lewm - Is it possible the message you received can be accessed here?  https://www.audiogon.com/messages Good luck, hope it helps!

@rvpiano It took about 200hrs for my ML to come to life. Just be patient & enjoy.

The Grados seem super interesting.

More than one reviewer called the Epoch3 “the world’s best cartridge”.

Did hear a $25K cartridge in a demo. The Epoch is $12K.

MI could/should be a very different story… maybe preferable?!

Someone on this thread sent me a message about my Decca SC4E.  Please send another message via the email route permitted by Audiogon.  I cannot find where my internal messages are stored, even though I was there earlier today.  To me, navigating the Audiogon website that governs interpersonal interactions of all kinds is a constant game.  I have to figure it out all over again each time, because it is illogical. Either that, or I am not as smart as I think I am.

rvpiano -- Enjoy it!. Eddie likes it...

Well, the day has finally come. My Hana ML cartridge should be installed tomorrow. Will report on it soon.

You should get out more!

dogberry"It's often said that everyone should try to listen to a Decca moving iron cartridge"

I have never heard that said, expressed, or claimed in any country I have visited.

It's often said that everyone should try to listen to a Decca moving iron cartridge at least once. Be warned, it's like just one hit of heroin! You may never come back. I have two of them, the Jubilee and the Reference. These are not like the old finicky Decca-made cartridges, but are well made by John Wright, an ex-Decca engineer who has had the patents for them since about 1989 and produces them under the London name. Hum is not a problem anymore. My Benz Micro and Ortofon MCs have stayed in the cupboard for the past eleven years, and I have seen no reason to change out the Reference since I got it. Intricate detail, immediacy, and compulsive foot-tapping rhythm are the reasons. Down sides are a sensitivity to surface noise (which has led to me becoming obsessed with record cleaning. I use a Loricraft and then a Degritter), and the fact the stylus on the tiny armature is easily damaged. You absolutely cannot allow any reverse force, sideways force or even a hard drop onto the record. Wet cleaning is out as well, as any Stylast or similar will get into the cartridge (no long cantilever) and destroy the glue holding the coils onto the magnets, resulting in the cartridge becoming extremely microphonic.

My Reference is currently boxed up and about to set off to the UK to see Mr Wright as it needs a new stylus. I have two other kinds of MI cartridge to keep me going until it returns, as well as the Jubilee. There is a Nagaoka MP-500, which is a different take on MI, but very respectable in performance - even though new, it currently sounds better than the Reference with a worn stylus. That will obviously change when the Reference comes back refreshed. But it's only a fifth of the price, and a bargain at that. I also have a new Grado Lineage Statement 3 to try out. A similar design to the Nagaoka, with a cantilever that doesn't see-saw, but which has an iron collar immediately on the other side of the rubber suspension ring. I am told it will give the Reference quite a challenge, but I'll need to run it in for ~50 hours before it gives its best. By then, I'll have forgotten what the Reference sounded like!

New London Deccas have just stopped production because of difficulties getting the armatures cut. John Wright also wants to retire. It would be wonderful if somebody like Soundsmith or Expert Stylus would take over! Both places are happy to re-tip a Decca/London, but they can't replace a damaged armature if John Wright no longer makes them.

If it sounds like I am over-praising a cartridge that barely anyone uses, go check out the reviews from Fremer and the like - all say the Reference has quirks and disadvantages, but produces heavenly sound. It's certainly my final cartridge. But perhaps check out the cheaper Nagaokas and Grados if you're moving iron curious!

mglik, I am on the opposite side of your question. I own OEM versions of B&O MMC1 and MMC20CL.  I also own Acutex LPM320STRIII which I've heard both in its headshell adapter and in the Acutex Saturn adapter, which is much lower mass than any headshell.  All of these are MI types and they are fantastic cartridges.  The only MC type that I own that compares is the Ortofon MC2000, used with an external active gain stage into an MM phono input.  I would have a hard time choosing among these options. What I wonder is how much better could a $10K+ cartridge like the Lyra Atlas SL be. I'm sure someone is going to pipe up and say that the Atlas SL is better, but I need to hear it for myself.

I read the threads from the link provided by @rauliruegas and it seems @needlestein was the only coherent poster. Raul is correct - I was wrong when I said VDH has a unique stylus design, but the end cartridges results with the stylus is unique.

Bottom line - what other cartridges state their styli last 2500-3000 hours? From people's experience, has anyone had cartridges other than van den Hul's last this long? I would bet most of these guys use so many different cartridges they lose track of how much time is on each one when they have them serviced.

Personally, I would only send my cartridges back to AJ van den Hul for service/maintenace, for any necessary worn parts replacement- be it stylus, cantilever, suspension, whatever. He made it originally and knows what it should be. He has the last word on his own products!

@mglik - Better is hard to say since preference can be very subjective and dependent upon how well a cartridge matches an arm and system. A Moving Iron design that could prove a worthy competitor is the Grado Epoch3 at $12K or possibly even their Aeon3 at $6K. Different balance which may appeal to certain listeners compared to the Lyra.

Is there a MI cartridge that can better the sound of a Lyra Atlas SL?

Dear @sokogear  : "  van den Hul cartridges use a unique designed.shaped stylus "

Your statement is a misunderstood and is wrong.

 

VDH S, Ortofon Replicant 100 and Paratrace all are the same stylus shape and comes from Gyger ( do you know that the humble Goldring 1042 comes with the S shaped stylus tip?, well it comes with ! !   ). Please read this post coming from a professional re-tipper that really know what he is talking about.

 

All these information including the Goldring characteristic are in the long MM thread:

 

R.

 

Hey Lew - I haven't researched it, I just have never seen another cartridge company talking about stylus lives of 2500-3000 hours. I typically hear 1500. Maybe 1000. If you listen a lot, a VDH will last 3-4 years. If you use another brand and get 75% of the life (probably optimistic) and it costs $500 (or more) to service the cartridge and replace the stylus, that would equate to a savings of over $125 a year (5 decent records). Plus the aggravation factor, especially if you are like me and don't have quality spares laying around to use while the work is taking place.

I don't think the upper VDH cartridge stylus replacements are much if any different than the low-mid models, so if you get higher level one, your ongoing costs shouldn't be much if anything more. A dealer I trust more than any other recommended/sold a barely used VDH to me over 10 years ago and I haven't felt the need to switch. I don't enjoy constantly testing new equipment (especially cartridges) back and forth, and unless you have a multi armed table, it is not a quick and easy thing to do. It is very difficult to remember what something sounds like in an A/B test. I'm not a tinkerer and am mainly interested in having the music I like playing as close to sounding live as possible.

I’ll just say I think Grado and Soundsmith have something good going with MI. But yes, implementation is everything.

I owned a Colibri and liked it, but I like other of my cartridges better. Since vdH make a myriad of versions of each of their major lines, it’s quite possible I’d love some other vdH, maybe even a different version of Colibri, better. But I don’t generally choose a cartridge based on lifespan of the stylus. Nor do I know of any data to support the notion that vdH styli outlast all others, though of course stylus shape seems to affect useful life span, or so I have read, and it makes some sense.

So you’re suggesting that vdH exclusively uses a stylus shape that renders its useful life significantly longer than any styli used by other makers(?)

Hey @lewm - van den Hul cartridges use a unique designed.shaped stylus, and of course like all MC carts, they need to be professionally serviced, unlike the pop on MM type stylus combo pieces.

The way VDH styli fit in the record's groove (as per VDH's web site) gives them their long life as I mentioned and @ghdprentice experienced. I don't see why anyone who uses a turntable a lot would buy anything else if they are considering a MC cartridge, unless cost is not a major concern. I know some like to use multiple carts, arms, etc. I mainly am interested in the music and not swapping gear out very often. I prefer to spend $$ on records and have about equal invested in hardware vs. software.

The stylus of any MC cartridge is replaceable, by a skilled professional. I just had it done by Expert Stylus for my Koetsu Urushi.  What others refer to as regards the differences in repair-ability of MM vs MC is that for MM cartridges, you can buy a completely new stylus assembly, including cantilever and magnet.  Then the owner can replace the unit on his own for no added cost.  I am sure everyone knows this, so what is unique about vdH MC cartridges when it comes to stylus replacement?

 

Wolfie, Are you a professional re-tipper?

@sokogear 

 

I had a van Den Hull cartridge for nearly 20 years… over 2,000 hours and was still going strong when I traded it in with the TT. Great investment.

@mglik 

On EBay, there is a GE VR 1000 for about $700. It is interesting since there are several stylus about $30. I am not a fan of setting up a cartridge. And I can’t imagine a 1000 will stand up to my Lyra Atlas SL. Love my Lyra.

Is it worth an experiment?

Yeah, the $30 stylus…..

 

I learned to rebuild the stylus.I don’t use the iron cantilever. With my stylus, the VR1000 is a totally different cartridge. “Flux Mirror” of my own design. Very light and short cantilever. Still an MI cartridge though.

If long term cost is an issue at all, van den Hul styli (medium output MC Cartridges) are shaped different and last considerably longer than others AND are replaceable. They also sound great. My last stylus lasted 2500-3000 hours and sounded the same until it totally disintegrated. 

I have mine (MC One Special) paired with a Sutherland Insight LPS on a Rega P8 and it is a great combination. 

Will certainly do.

@rvpiano The Clearaudio cartridge you had is very good.  I have a Hana SL and like the sound better than the Clearaudio.  I've spent time listening to the ML on a friend's system and liked it even more than the SL.  I wouldn't say that you'll notice a dramatic difference, but you should notice more refinement and a very neutral presentation from the ML.  Please let us know how you like it once you get it.

ghdprentice,

I’m just hoping the Hana will suit me at least as well as the Clearaudio did.

 

On EBay, there is a GE VR 1000 for about $700. It is interesting since there are several stylus about $30. I am not a fan of setting up a cartridge. And I can’t imagine a 1000 will stand up to my Lyra Atlas SL. Love my Lyra.

Is it worth an experiment?

pryso,

Thanks for asking.
Yes, I listen to mostly classical (about 90-95%) but I do listen to jazz, pop and some other styles. I had Grado cartridges for many years until I switched to the Clearaudio Virtuoso, which I like a lot. Contrary to your view, I’ve never felt the need to switch cartridges. My system really sounds fine in all styles with one cartridge. I’ve never felt the need to switch.
As far as turntable, I started out very modestly with the Rega RP3, but I have almost completely revamped and upgraded it with new parts and two power supplies. I also have a steady as a rock very heavy specially designed turntable platform on a slab floor which holds the turntable with no vibration.

Yup, two arms and two cartridges, one or two tables. That's the way for many. More than two is a little extravagant but why not ?

I personally don't need it but I don't listen to large scale music. Good for me or I would have to completely overhaul my entire system. Only couple of cables would remain where they are now. I don't chase extreme resolution and transparency either or I would want $10k MC and $20k phono stage, not to mention the rest of the chain.

rvpiano, I'm aware you listen to lots of classical music.  Do you spend much time listening to other types?

I ask because of the experience of a friend who had quite a refined musical ear.  He could not find just one cartridge that suited all the various classical and jazz recordings he regularly listened to.  I do remember he preferred a Grado for vocals, both jazz and opera.  Then he had a different favorite for symphonic and big band and a third for chamber music and small group jazz.  I don't remember which those were but it was nearly 20 years ago so probably doesn't matter now.

Depending on your arm and table (you didn't identify those) there are a few ways to do this.  If you have an interchangeable headshell that may be the simplest and least expensive.  Adding at least one additional tonearm would reduce changing headshells, particularly if you were satisfied with two cartridges.  Also is the choice to add a second table/arm, but that is not practical for many people.

BTW, I assume it was the cantilever you bent, not the stylus.  They don't bend, they break. ;^)

 

 

OP,

After reading a review of the Hana ML… sounds like a great cartridge. Congratulations, I look forward to hearing about what you think of it.

Dear @kinross  : " Just to add the J. Grado, who developed and patented the first MC cartridges, .."

I think that you have a misunderstood about because your statement is wrong due that was not Gado who patented the MC principle but no other than Ortofon and they stated this fact in his site information.

 

Grado company born in 1953 and Ortofon patented the MC cartridge principle in 1950. Later on 19158 Grado started his patent for MC that was approved in 1960-61:

 

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2591996A/en

 

R.

Dear @wolfie62  : Now I own that ADC in stock condition. I posted a thread of the ADC 26/27 original status where I made tests comparisons against top today LOMC cartridges and overall in my room/system me and the owners of the today LOMC cartridges been in agreement that that Pritchard design is just superb and could outperform any other cartridge.

 

I know that you prefer the 10E MKIV and is ok. I have the 26 with 3-4  replacement stylus and now that you brougth here ADC name I will send to an update with boron cantilever and maybe Shibata stylus shape or VDH and yes with the length cantilever of same dimension than the original aluminum one.

@rauliruegas 

 

Unfortunately for you, the ADC 25/26/27 carts are no match for the 10E MKIV. The 10E-4 came out after those carts, and just before the XLM. The 10E-4 was a test bed to prove Pritchard’s latest development in coil design and coil poles design. The improvement was used in ALL subsequent designs from the XLM to the Astrion. Your ADC 26 and 27 lacks this key technology. I used the 10E-4 with NOS R-26 and R-25(1) styli. It’s the very best of the very best ADC made! I still have 3 NOS of each styli. The styli for the 25/26/27/10E-4 are identical except the original R-15E was a bonded elliptical, not nude. 
 

But you will never achieve the level of performance with the 25/26/27 cart bodies as the 10E-4, regardless of using a retipped stylus. They all lack the fine level of control of the 10E-4. And the XLM to the Astrion lacks the sound of the 10E-4. So your getting a retip won’t raise the performance to the level of the 10E-4. 
 

I did the retip myself. I bought the boron rod and diamond on-line. I have a fine metallurgical microscope and alignment reticles on one of my eyepieces. But from here on, I’ll use Joseph Long. It was an exercise in patience. I used a worn R-15E stylus and cut the aluminum canti where it enters the armature. Then secured the boron rod inside the aluminum sheath. 

Greetings 

To be fair to my ears I will eventually finish refurbishing my Heybrook TT2 turntable with a Sumiko Premiere MMT  tonearm. I’ll install a Grado XTZ MI Cartridge on it.

 I haven’t listened  to a MI/MM cartridge in my system in over 35+ years. I have only used MC cartridges. I’m looking forward to listening to the Grado cartridge. If I enjoy the Grado cartridge I’ll look at updating to a more current MI/MM cartridge.

My previous response was based on how cartridges sounded to me 35 years ago.

Joe Nies

@rauliruegas , 

 I'll keep on chuggin'!

Dear @slaw  : " The keyword is "try". "

 

I can see that thaT NO-SENSE still makes sense to you.

Please think a little:

makes sense to you to scale to the sharp end the Everest in a cycle?,. Because is " almost " the same: both a " crazy impossibilities." 

 

Maybe you can " try ".

 

R.

@wolfie62  : Btw, who was the 10E rettiper?

 

Thank's in advance,

 

R.

Dear @wolfie62  : Now I own that ADC in stock condition. I posted a thread of the ADC 26/27 original status where I made tests comparisons against top today LOMC cartridges and overall in my room/system me and the owners of the today LOMC cartridges been in agreement that that Pritchard design is just superb and could outperform any other cartridge.

 

I know that you prefer the 10E MKIV and is ok. I have the 26 with 3-4  replacement stylus and now that you brougth here ADC name I will send to an update with boron cantilever and maybe Shibata stylus shape or VDH and yes with the length cantilever of same dimension than the original aluminum one.

R.

@rauliruegas 

But I'm talking here of vintage cartridges that if were under today production with today parts used for the top LOMC cartridges will be a true challenge to them.

So far, I’ve not had any MC cartridges beat the ADC 10E MKIV with the boron cantilever and nude MR tip. Extremely short/light cantilever and nude Micro Ridge stylus. Superb tracking at 0.75 grams, extremely low moving mass, the best imaging and detail I’ve yet heard. Tip life @0.75 grams is better than 800 hours.

@rauliruegas , 

The keyword is "try". 

@lewm

Your opinion concerning MC/MM/MI sound differences is exactly what I said in my original post. I guess we're caught in a glitch in the Matrix. As Mick Jagger once sang, "Gimme shelter!"  In any event, I think I found a happy best-of-both-worlds compromise with my new Hana ML.

Dear @wolfie62  : I owned at least two LOMC  Ikeda cantilever-less designs and cartridges as the L-1000 by JVC/Victor and Dyna 13D that are designs with almost no cantilever as is the today LOMC AT 1000.

Very good experiences and not exactly the same kind of performance than the Decca non MC designs.

I think that on cartridges there is nothing really new but refinements on each design cartridge principles and designs as Lyra Etna SL makes that the MUSIC experiences in our system be a superior one to all those non-cantilever designs.

Cold be interesting to ask designers of the level of Lyra Mr. Carr what he think about on quality level performance.

Common sense tells that cantilever-less have and must be a huge improvement when a source of added distortions gone but a stand alone ( Ikeda ) stylus tip obviously has its own and different added distortions to what comes in the LP grooves due  that the stylus tip was holded in some way in the " cartridge suspension " and after that comes the cartridge motor design.

Unfortunatelly in audio always exist trade-offs and our room/system will be as better as we choosed those trade-offs in each link of the room/system chain.

 

R.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear @slaw ​@rvpiano  : "" One of my life long goals was to try to emulate my live musical experience with my experience at home The MI carts from SS provide this. ""

 

It does not matters thwe media ( analog(digital ) no one including you can achieve that statement target, no one.

The best room/system target we can have is to stay nearer to the recording, nothing through any room/system can emulates the dynamics and its power clarity and transparency including the critical MUSIC transients if for no other " thing " ( there are many other reasons. ) because in a live performance " there is nothing but air between you and the MUSIC source ".

 

Now the nearest to the recording we can achieve/be it through digital alternative not analog one, everything the same.

A main reason for that are the recording/playback whole tortuose/nigth mare analog proccess against the digital " direct " proccess. No matters what. I'm not talking of preferences, just common sense.

 

R.

I also have the Hana ML. Wonderful sounding cartridge.

@rvpiano 

I have the Hana ML & it really came to life (exploded) after 200 hrs. Your going to love it! Just be patient. I also have the Credenza Black, but prefer the Hana in my system.

+1 rauliruegas

...on the same wavelength as you...

rvpiano

My personal preference is MI - I have had various MC cartridges with good phono stages and have struggled to get the rich tonality and PRAT that I prefer. The most recent MC cartridge was a Kiseki Purple Heart which everyone said was a  great cartridge with rich tonality - I found it shrill in the high frequencies - an aspect I have found with other MC cartridges and has been commented on in hifi press. Currently have a Grado MI cartridge and am delighted to have found the sound I like with great silent tracking - for me MI is a hybrid between the richness of MM and the detail of MC.

@mglik 

What about moving iron cartridges??

I have always been interested in the legendary London Decca Reference cart.

I currently use a Lyra Atlas SL. Hard to imagine a $5250 London beats the $13K Lyra.

But the. London reviews all say it produces “scary real”.

Anyone have experience with one?

The only real attraction to the Decca cart is that it is a “tip sensing” cart. Not much to do with it being an MI cart. I wrote about MI carts earlier in this thread^^^^^^.
 

The Decca cart reads the stylus movement from close to the stylus. It has a short vertical cantilever tied with a string; the string is the damper to kill resonance in the short vertical cantilever. Not a user-replaceable stylus. 
 

The 1960 GE VR1000 is another phenomenal MI cartridge that is also tip-sensing. Fact is, it’s the only tip-sensing stereo cartridge with a user-replaceable stylus. It reads the stylus movement at the actual stylus, more than the Decca does. Tip-sensing cartridges have a very unique sound! Not bright, but very dynamic and emphatic. Because it doesn’t read from the opposite end of the cantilever, it loses no energy to the long cantilever or into the suspension; all other cartridges do. Until you hear a true tip-sensing stylus you’ll never hear how much energy, dynamics, and FR energy is lost to the cantilever! It’s amazing to hear the stylus in the groove, AT THE GROOVE, and how much more information there is in the grooves. It’s like having a “dynamics amplifier” in your system. Once you hear a record “from the stylus”, NOT from the other end of a long cantilever (MC, MM, MI all have this problem!) you’ll never want to go back to them.

rvpiano, that's good. Now ask us about upgrading your table and arm and phono stage. You will get recommendations of almost all available brands, guaranteed. 

One factor often cited for MC pickups is wider band width due to low inductance. But this is due to fewer coil turns which gives low inductance AND low output. MMs almost always have many more coil turns AND higher output. But there have been MMs with fewer turns AND lower output. The Technics EPC 100 MK4 is an example with FLAT response to at least 80kHz if i Recall correctly(meaning the high end resonance is even higher) and yet it still has 1 mv output which means you can use a good MM phono stage; you don't need a high gain MC type phono stage.

Too late.
I’ve already ordered the Hana ML.

Hopefully, it will fill the bill for me.

I’ll try to stop posting so much. LOL