McIntosh -- good for show, not for sound, says dealer

well it seems that this thread, like many a seriously well done high end hi fi system, may have arrived at a point of diminishing returns

I can tell you McIntosh is complete garbage. I just had a c 2500 preamp and compared it to an Ayre K5xemp.  The Ayre absolutely smoked the McIntosh.  The McIntosh sounded like it belonged on the top shelf of Best Buy. 

I can tell you McIntosh is complete garbage. I just had a c 2500 preamp and compared it to an Ayre K5xemp.  The Ayre absolutely smoked the McIntosh.  The McIntosh sounded like it belonged on the top shelf of Best Buy. 

Tell them about the other courteous response you sent on this same thread days ago vuch when you told me to go back to my shoe shine box. Some people might find that offensive ... 

 All upper end audio gear is over priced so why only pick on Mac

@bugsnest Nice amp, two guys to carry it out to car…. Good on ya man :-)

jim

Seriously I just was looking on line here in Oz, McIntosh are selling a clock, no audio, just a clock for over $4000, that's like USD$3000. I think that says everything you need to know about their pricing.  This thing probably cost $50 to make in China?

All McIntosh gear in built in the US w/integrity to last a long time. How many amps built in the 60’s are still out there & running well? Very few other brands foreign or domestic. While maybe not every model they’ve ever produced sounds great, many do & not at crazy priced compared to many of the big name high end stuff. They all measure better than their specs which many expensive amps cannot boast if you’re into that. 450+ real solid state watts per side that sound very good for $9000 or 75+ Excellent sounding tube watts for $6000 both represent very solid values. Plus, you know in 10 or15 years, they’re both still going to be working like new. Great American company that deserves its success. 

Thanks @ejr1953  I don’t have the option to do that but my home is relatively newish (15 years) so hopefully the existing wiring is adequate for this beast. 

It is all Business $$$$$$. Wake up people.

without a doubt, but it isn’t just ALL about business... it’s also about envy, jealousy, misplaced need for self gratification thru lame ego-boosting, make self feel better by tearing others down

internet forums like this are ’potshot heaven’ for all sorts of sad characters

that ocd guy is presenting himself as the champion of those who just want pure sonic performance and not looks, frills, eye candy, i’d remind everyone that his main line of amplification is mark levinson... now THAT is truly dripping in irony (if not something much worse)...

i have been reminded/corrected... meant jeff rowland, not levinson...

I believe what is going on here is  all about 

some businesses trying to take down the big dog

who is making plenty of money 💰......

It is all Business $$$$$$.  Wake up people. 

@bugsnest 

I've enjoyed an MC452 for several years now and find that it pairs very well with my speakers.  With a new home build, I had the electrician install a dedicated AC line and run CAT6 to my new listening room.  Since all of my equipment is plugged in to a PS Audio P15 power regenerator, I'm not sure how much benefit the dedicated AC line provides, but since it was relatively easy with a new home build, I thought "why not", just in case it makes a difference.

@jl1ny and @henry53 Im curious now since I just purchased a demo model 452 last week. What benefit does a dedicated line bring? I hadn’t heard of that one before. I am driving Paradigm Persona speakers and the 452 does that effortlessly. It’s cool to the touch even after an hour of continuous play.

Little man, Little man, swat SPLAT! I've farted better men than you. I don't sell equipment I give it away. Especially if I like someone. Your OFF my Christmas list, coal in your stocking and a extra stocking for that nasty LITTLE mouth of your. 

As for your obsession with MY orifice, I'll pass. Please pay attention to your own orifice, you smelly LITTLE thing. Swat Splat! Orifice BOY!!

Sphincter say what? ROMP!  A twin brother! 

A man's gear "MCINTOSH". The only thing you should be ashamed of is if you don't own Mcintosh. At least there is a fix for that.. I'm a Sansui, Marantz and Western Electric amp fan too. Own them all less the WEs I sold.

🤣

Everyone has the right to their own opinion, however I am happy with my McIntosh MA6700.

It holds its resale value.

‘It’s built like a tank

It pairs well with my B&W 805 D3’s

It looks good in my system

I understand there are better values out there, but I wouldn’t trade it in for any of them. Just my opinion.

I hope I don't get in trouble for saying this but his listening room looks like it smells of flatulence. Get a new camera, some decor, and take a shower.

Yeah, also I had the CAP150 and Halo. More than ok amps, for sure. What I’m starting to really understand, after years, is that taste in audio varies to a degree that makes it more or less worthless to argue about what equipment sounds good, or not. It’s like arguing about if an amp looks good or not. It’s all about preferences. Some people actually like a sound that I find bland or even right out bad. It’s still Hard for me to understand, but it seems to be real.

@teppas,

Before I bought my MA6600, I had a Rogue Cronus Magnum integrated, a Classe’ CAP150 integrated and a Parasound Halo integrated. The MA6600 is 100% better sounding than any of the other 3 integrated amps I had previously. I bought mine used from Audio Classics at $3200. I see one sold recently for $5400. I lost money on the other 3 integrateds I had previously. The MA6600 is a keeper. I forgot I also had a Yaquin integrated, but that caught fire within a few days of ownership and it was purchased brand new. Threw it in the trash. 

I’ve owned a bunch of McIntosh SS gear, and really love the look and feel of them. Just something special about them. Feels damn nice to come home to your Mac, after a long day at the office. But, soundwise … hell… I just don’t know… Honestly, Mac don’t sound very good compared to much other gear I’ve owned. They’re not really best at anything, but ok at most things. I found myself liking pre autoformer Mac’s the best. Latest (and last, I think) i bought was the MA6600. Even my cheapo Zell ZD-200 mk2 soundwise beat the hell out of that one, in every way… But still, every time I see an add for a Mac, I still feel the urge to buy:) 

Rolex's are worth every penny and almost always go up in value over time, so way better than Mac

Are you still here you little SPLAT!!

laoman you and your opinion are like "SWAT SPLAT" mosquitoes. WORTHLESS!
You’d buy from America if you were allowed to. Personally I wouldn’t sell to you, but I would SWAT SPLAT, take a shower and wash you down the DRAIN.

Mad itty bitty man.. Swat spat! SWAT SPLAT! PEST

You may leave now.. Your ignorance is not appreciated nor are you. You're Excused!

@jjss49 

+1 recommending the Audio Excellence Canada videos. Those guys are fantastic.  

i know @hilde45 personally, know him outside of this forum

i’m pretty sure he doesn’t have an opinion on mac gear from personal ownership or use, his op was to question the broader point which he just restated - as a high level educator professionally and a burgeoning hifi nerd personally, he is learning about this hobby, the people, the perspectives and attitudes they hold

i also don’t have a personal opinion on mac gear based on recent personal ownership, i haven’t owned a piece for quite some time, the brand, like all good brands, develop new products and move on, advance the gear, functionally, cosmetically and sonically to sustain success - but i know enough from 40 years dedicated to this pursuit where the brand and its products stand in the industry, with customers, and so on

as for mr ocd guy, i would hope that with (or in spite of) his disposition, business practices, commercial decisions on what he carries, and how he markets himself, that he has SOME following... the guy is trying to make a living, dunno how well he is doing at it -- as for the foundational premise @hilde45 is addressing with this thread, that ocd guy is presenting himself as the champion of those who just want pure sonic performance and not looks, frills, eye candy, i’d remind everyone that his main line of amplification is mark levinson... now THAT is truly dripping in irony (if not something much worse)...

as a useful contrast, another industry dealer is audio excellence in canada... for those who don’t know of adrian, vilip et al, i suggest you watch the following videos and others they post on youtube... to me, they are a model of class, likeability, earnestness, as well as deep knowledge (and successful salesmanship)... yes they meander a bit in their discussion, as most enthusiasts do, but i feel their content is always worth watching... to me they are a better, an alternative, and a much more successful way of handling well, just about everything...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nB4N_dfqAo

@hilde45 - It was sarcasm. "Unvarnished" added to "truth" was hyperbole meant to convey irony. I have no "purposes." Sorry it wasn’t clearer. I'd hope that your reading of my other posts make the case (to you, to others) that the video is ridiculous, irresponsible nonsense. No way for a dealer to behave.

Thank you for that, I for one did take that statement literally. Savvy wordsmiths like yourself can be easily misread when applying sarcasm. And I do, from my perspective think that you have clearly defined your position on the dealer in question and the video. And I do apologize to being testy with you previously.

I still have the question in my mind though. Where does @hilde45 stand not on the dealer in question, his video or statements here; but McIntosh products themselves as well as their sound. I checked out the pics of your room and system, very nice by the way, and saw no Mac. With so many new and low post members like myself showing up here, I can't be the only one wondering where does the Op stand on the products in question? I would appreciate your elevated(being sincere, not sarcastic) position either way on Mac products and their sound.

@middlemass Thanks.

Let's move on to the poster below who said,

The point is he gave an honest opinion about McIntosh.

Sorry, but that’s not the point of what I have said or what his video was about. You have rendered an oversimplification, a deflection, and obviously so. If what he said was only about a brand, who cares. This is about audiophiles in general, not just about "McIntosh", pro or con. Because he bashes Wilson and Magico, too. Did you hear that part?

Here’s a post where I really try to help those not getting it:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/mcintosh-good-for-show-not-for-sound-says-dealer/post?postid=2341061#2341061

Don’t believe me or my quotes from the transcript? Ok, go -- rewatch the video. You’ll see that McIntosh is just his main whipping boy. Sure, he thinks McIntosh is a very bad value and doesn’t sound good.

But his POINT is that the kind of people who like McIntosh are fooled by the looks, that they’re part of a whole world of audiophiles who think that bling = good audio. He has anointed himself to show people that there are two doors in audio, the "looks good" or the "sounds good" door. He has set himself up as the guru if you want to avoid the false audiophile "looks" door. (Oh, and of course he would never sell that stuff!)

Again, it’s not just about McIntosh. Because that other type of person -- the fool very often taken in by McIntosh, but sometimes by Wilson, Magico, and lots of other brands -- are not true audiophiles.

Lots of cognitive dissonance here for those who had a good experience with him. Mazel tov, bros. You got him on a good day. Not everyone has, as reported here.

Others who review this forum’s thread can make up their mind about whether they want to shovel thousands of $$’s his way. It’s clear he knows a lot about audio but he’s also a seller. He’s made other videos claiming to "just be delivering the truth" and that so many others in audio are just shilling, writing commercially motivated reviews, on the take. He has, in other videos, put himself *above* that. I reacted once on a thread to the conflict of interest he has in claiming that everyone else is just selling but he’s just speaking truth. He derided me, tried to say I was just another audio seller out to ding him. I’m not in the industry. I’m a freakin’ hobbyist. I have a day job completely unrelated to audio. But when people don’t have a real defense for what they said, they turn to attack. If you look at his responses, they’re frequently doing that. That means he has no real defense. Caveat emptor, folks.

@oldhvymec "Mac is a lot of things but BAD or MidFi just isn't one of the things they are."  To suggest Mac is not even mid class is a bit unfair. It certainly is at level and not below.

Birds of a feather. 

Contributing as usually I see. 

No ones feelings got hurt, but there is a point where empathy can.

Mr/Mrs @vuch comes out of no where and you think insulting Mac owners by joining in is a wise move?

As a guy that owns Sansui, Marantz, WE, Mcintosh, VTL, ARC, AR, Cary, Rogue, Pass, Threshold, Sony, Classy, BAT, Dodd, HH Scott, Heath, Fisher, Pioneer, Ampzilla, Krell, ML, First Watt, HK, Victrola, RCA, Philco, Accuphase, Manley Boulder, DIY and a few more I'm pretty sure "inadequate" anything is NOT the issue. 

Mr. Mike made statements that a lot of other folks haven't experienced with Mcintosh. Mac is a lot of things but BAD or MidFi just isn't one of the things they are.

I wish Mr Mike well and all of his customers. I guess insulting folks is one way to pick up certain kinds of customers.

I saw a guy kicking at a dog that was trying to get in the police car with him. The police gave me the dog. I kept him for 12 more years. Hoop the dog. He'll be the third one to lick my face when I get to heaven.

“ You’re holding on to negative feelings and continuing to lash out about him makes it seem like you believe deep down you or your gear is inadequate “

You might be onto something there @vuch 

Getting tired of the people questioning hilde45's motives. The bigger picture, by maybe 1000 to 1, is Mike Powell's arrogance. And that is coming from someone who normally doesn't believe in the accuracy of reading someone else's mind. (Arrogance.) But Mike has truly crossed a line in this thread. He needs spiritual help and I truly hope he gets it.

DO UNTO OTHERS 

And I guess you never had a good dealer, so you don't know how a good one behaves vuch.

@mikepowellaudio As someone who values justice and fairness and not making unfair and unwarranted assumptions I have the following to say:

I have done business with Mike Powell on two occasions since I got back into this hobby several years ago. First was several years ago when I bought his Maggie silver upgrades for my Maggie 1.7is. He was professional to work with and always pleasant, available and communicative. The upgrades were great and I highly recommend them. The second time was recently, when I got a good deal on a pair of NIB, sequentially serial numbered Jeff Rowland Model 125 amps. Again, very professional, great to work with, available and communicative. I would definitely do business with Mike again.

Some of you may not like his style. Fine. To each his own. But he tells you what he thinks and doesn’t BS. I would rather listen to him and do business with him than say the Innuos reps I talked to at AXPONA who fed me this BS rationalization about why they use underpowered cheap parts in their Zenith. Mike you exposed their BS and confirmed my suspicions with my Zenith Mk3. I feel that Innuos and possibly other Roon Core server vendors take advantage of us audiophiles with a bunch of hype and BS to sell us a product inferior to a well spec’d NUC for thousands more. I feel like I had been taken advantage of. You like that style? Mike exposed their garbage in one of his videos. He is doing us a service. For those of you with Innuos gear who like it. Great. I am glad you are happy. That is what matters. It’s a hobby.

The point is he gave an honest opinion about McIntosh. You don’t like it? Great. You don’t have to like it. You also don’t have to agree with it. Just don’t be a jerk to Mike because he has a different opinion to you. Don’t we have enough disagreement and vitriol in this country. We have to now bring that into audio? Give me a break. Go listen to some music on your gear, McIntosh or otherwise. You’ll feel better.

@roxy54, I guess your dad never had good dogs.

Good for you vuch. Lay down with dogs, wake up with fleas my Dad always said.

@stephens770 It was sarcasm. "Unvarnished" added to "truth" was hyperbole meant to convey irony. I have no "purposes." Sorry it wasn’t clearer. I'd hope that your reading of my other posts make the case (to you, to others) that the video is ridiculous, irresponsible nonsense. No way for a dealer to behave.

"Who actually buys from this man?" @roxy54, I do. I'll be replacing my PrimaLuna EVO400 Power Amplifier with NAT Audio Generator monoblocks. I'm also upgrading my Dyna PAS-3X preamplifier with a NAT Audio Symmetrical. Mikey assures me I'll be completely satisfied. I'm really looking forward to it! It'll be a fun road trip to pick up the gear, hang out, and listen to his AMAZING system!

I must admit that in the past, having a visually cool-looking system was one of my considerations but over the last couple of years, I've been focused on attaining the best sonics that I can.

I think having a local HiFi group has influenced and sped up that direction as well. One of the benefits I have is the ability to try other gear in my system and go to other local audiophiles' homes to listen to their rigs. Currently, we have 7 local guys who have nice systems, several of them with multiple systems. One guy has a system valued at 500k. He has VAC Statement amps, an AMG TT, Magico S7's, and other top gear and cables. I had my Magico A3s before we met and was heading towards improving the sonics of my system. After he hosted a monster 8-hour listening session at his home for several of us, I realized the next day that I wasn't getting everything out of my speakers that I could. 

That's when I consulted Mikey and things progressed from there. Implementing his advice, I rearranged my listening room and changed speaker placement and toe-in. Mikey's not into analog but I also tweaked the VTA of my tonearm and it was as if the sonic puzzle piece fell into place! It was like going to a chiropractor with a painful back and after he adjusts you the pain completely vanishes! The change in sonics was that stark compared to my old layout! Others have said that I don't need to do anything further now, and I would agree but I trust that the changes we are going to make will take my rig to a completely new level. 

No matter what anyone says about him, Mikey is an expert in HiFi. He's backed up that fact. In the latest video he put out, a guy said he's heard the PS Audio system with the Infinity towers and basically said there was no comparison to Mikey's rig.

I'm looking forward to benefiting from his HiFi experience and passion every time I put on an album!

After watching this thread go back and forth, and the OP taking both sides as "the messenger", I'd like to ask the Op to explain this statement from the original post that is his own:

"More unvarnished truth from YouTube" - hilde45
Definition from Dictionary.com: Unvarnished - Plain, Clear, Straightforward. 

So, is OCD Mikey's opinion the truth or not? You did call him out later, but to me it appears that you agreed with him early on or at least just wanted to start another McIntosh bash thread for self serving purposes. Prove me wrong and go on the record with your position and why stating McIntosh specific gear and experience. If I missed it in the thread, my apologies. I believe this thread has demonstrated that McIntosh owners are tired of being bashed with generic blanket statements and have made their position known. So, Op, what is yours?

I’ll let Mike Campbell speak for me on this.  

When I decided to splurge and buy my final preamp and get all the features I wanted I made a mental list.
home theater bypass function

built in good quality DAC

a topnotch phono stage

balanced output

ability to rename inputs and disable unused inputs

input name display clearly visible from across the room (hate little led dots under tiny labels)

tone and balance controls

The two least expensive preamps I found that I could order that had all that were the Anthem STR and the Mcintosh C49.  The Anthem was $4200 and the Mac was $5000.  I ended up buying the one made in America with a sterling reputation for service.  In addition to all the above, it has two separately switched and buffered outputs, a fixed record out, 3 12v triggers, 2 of which can be programmed to come on with an input or inputs,  a 12v input from an AVR or AV processor that automatically puts it in HT passthrough.  It helps that it looks great.

$5000 doesn’t seem like a bargain and you can certainly get things that sound  as good for less money.  However, nothing I could find has all those features for significantly less.

WoW this thread is like "ctrl-alt-delete" for my post.

Come to think of it a LOT of my post are being disappeared

I gotta find a new place to hang my hat.. 

Canada? You guys got any room up there? I'll bring my own money and job how's that? I can learn to understand French, speaking it, I don't think so.. You guys got a "Statue of Liberty" somewhere? I love maple syrup. Moose not so much..

I like Canadian and Australian actors too.. I want to start a Vanilla and Truffle Trade and call it the "Something".

They got the corner on Canadian Bacon too. I wonder why?
Canadian Bacon, Truffle, Vanilla and Canadian Goose eggs, (they got the corner on that one too.) Come to think of it Canada sounds pretty good except for the snow.

Maybe I could hunt up Master M and we could go on Tour.

"Embedding you System" I'll bring pictures of the Rabbit and Dog..

Say they got crawdads up there?

I'll bring my Mcintosh gear with me (on TOPIC)

Now why would they "ctrl-alt-delete" this post. :-)

Regards (respectful)

It isn’t a requirement to love Mac, or ANY brand / product.

That seems eminently defensible. Very, very safe thing to claim.

It would be pretty damn boring if we all had the same gear, same tastes etc..

This, too, is very, very true. Almost tautologically true. 

It isn't a requirement to love Mac, or ANY brand / product.

Why people get soooo bent out of shape when the gear they own isn't praised by someone else.  Who the hell cares?

Certainly, stating obvious incorrect facts or just being a plain troll/shill is different, but people buy and stick with what they have because they like it.  That is all that matters.

It would be pretty damn boring if we all had the same gear, same tastes etc..