Linn LP12 turntable

@tomic601 +1

One of the most genuinely kind, decent people I've ever met, in or out of the audio community.

richardbrand

One pair of speakers only please!

l remember British monthly hi-fi magazines in the 70s and 80s had this ongoing debate. Long before multi channel entered the fray.

Many hi-fi enthusiasts (the audiophile label did not exist then) had several pairs of speakers in one room at a time. This was the golden age of experimentation, equipment comparisons and tweaking!

l don’t believe it was a Linn only ‘’eureka’’ moment…..all part of the ‘’hype’’ which is now called ‘’spin’’ l expect. The debate is relevant today even more so with home theatre invading the old stereo living room domain.

Just thinking……Lots of everyday furniture radiate…….Perhaps we should think about taking out our windows, they must be the biggest passive radiators ?

The music would become more transparent with more air around the instruments and performers….ha!

A centre speaker, which is unused during playback of vinyl, is mentioned in this thread.

I am pretty sure it was Ivor Tiefenbrun, the founder of Linn, who insisted during demonstrations that all redundant loudspeakers should be removed from the room because they act as passive radiators!

Ivor is outspoken, irreverent, highly opinionated, a brilliant and original thinker, and one of the most fascinating conversationalists either of us has met.

— John Atkinson & Robert Harley^[8]

daveyf

So if l read your last post correctly you are saying, don’t waste your money on ever trying to upgrade every part of an old LP12? It is too obsolete? Much like a Russian T26 to draw on my anology!

daveyf, you sound like the ‘’voice of reason’’ (in general) on the subjects, money pits and diminishing returns.

Maybe buy what ever vintage LP12 that you like sound wise and be content with that time capsule in time.

That’s also my logic too.

One thing that I think should be mentioned is this: the LP12 today is a far different and superior table to the one that was brought out in the 70's. 

Over the years, Linn has engineered a number of improvements to the table, that essentially render the prior versions less able. The further back in time one goes, the more obsolescence is heard. 

This probably won't sit well with folks who are sure their old Nirvana 70's model sounds exactly the same as a current LP12 Klimax, but IMO, the main similarity to the two is the basic shape and the name on the lid, and that is it!  Otherwise, when it comes to SQ, ( and frankly design as well), the two are miles apart. 

Yourlogic, No, you didn’t mislead me. I thought someone was commenting on the looks of the LP12. Apparently not.

i have no idea what Mark200 is trying to say, on the other hand, except maybe he owns an LP12.

I bought one of these at an estate sell.the price was so good I could not pass it up.it came with 1000 plus records alot of cds the Beatles listened to that type of Indian culture music.he was a record exec. Nice to know the guru is in Fort Collins .I'll have to get it out and running thx for the motovation. He had it on a stand with heavy lead weights on bottom.i don't think the epa let's you buy that much lead these days.enjoy the music

lewm

My misleading you l think?

I should have referred to the yoyoyaya post #796, and was not a reply to his more recent ones.

His concern on ‘’shortcomings’’ (vertical travel) of the Ittok design prompted my tank like comparisons. Anyone can see the resemblances l refer to. Quite possibly and perfectively arguable, the ugliest ‘’SOAB’’ arm design in the Linn competitive war chest?

If the center speaker is not operating when you’re listening to vinyl, then obviously no problem.

The “look” of the LP12 is pretty generic for mid-1970s. Neither beautiful nor ugly by those standards. Look at Ariston or Thorens from the same era for comparison. Modern “inexpensive” turntables often mimic that look. Modern turntables in the same price class as a full up to date LP12 (which I understand to be upwards of $20K) will be more sleek and attractive maybe because manufacturers now realize the importance of bling but also because they’re adding structural rigidity and etc that was not built in to the 1970s LP12.

yoyoyaya

Reference your comments on the Ittok’s design.

I always thought the Ittok’s awkward design looked just like the M4 Sherman tank turret and barrel. An ugly ‘’SOAB’’, a phrase WW2 General Patton loved saying!

Now there was a foreword thinking guy with great Logic!

But l wonder what Linn designers were thinking to come up with that ‘’look’’ ??

Thats my Logic!

@Davey F. Interesting - thanks! Martin Colloms always maintained that different aspects of the LP 12'ss design, while perhaps questionable in themselves, were effective in terms of overall system synergy. Perhaps the same is true of the Ittok/LP 12 combination. Though personally, I always thought it had a bit of a zingy/splashy character - very different to the WTA in that regard.

@yoyoyaya  I have heard a few Ittoks mounted on an Oracle. Not my favorite combo. Also heard a few mounted on Gyrodecs, but also not that impressive.

I replaced my Ekos 2 with the 'WTA' Black, it was a nice upgrade as the 'Black' utilizes VDH Litz cable in the arm and I now use a Nordost Tyr phono cable, which is a big step up over the Linn T Kable.

@daveyf 

I also wondered how they got to $14k. Perhaps sales exaggeration, perhaps honest mistake. Will continue to look at the Linn. Thanks 

@lewm It is above the shelf were my current turntable sits.
Unless I am missing something, other than inconvenience, I am not sure why that is a problem. It is not used and just a hunk of wood when I play vinyl. The center is only on during HT use.

You can see my layout on my profile. 

Did you say you have a center channel speaker on a shelf above the one where you plan to put a TT? Not good.

@tomic601 Jon is the Raleigh store manager at Audio Advice… he is a great guy!

@lewm The 1200G is a great deck.

No final decision yet… am staying pat, for now, but back to leaning P10. Love the look, the simplicity and the reviews. Also, my TT is located on the second shelf (not the top…center speaker is there). A removable dust cover and low profile is essential. If i were to ’cheap out’ 😏 (sorry I couldn’t resist @tablejockey) I would buy a P8, a very good price performer.

if Jon is Jon at Ultra Fidelis… he is a saint w ears

I have owned what was my father's Linn/Valhalla for well neigh on 40 years or so. He moved on to SOTA at the time and VPI after that. About 8 years ago, I gave it a thorough going through. R&R the lubricant for the bearing, new belt, releveling and retuning the suspension and retuning the Rabco tone arm. About 4 years ago I replaced the Denon 103 with a Hana EL. You can see it in my system photos. 

It has been rock solid dependable. It's also rather lovely sounding if I do say so myself. It suits.

Yes, you can fall into the trap of a never ending series of modifications or "upgrades" or, you can just enjoy it as is. I've preferred the latter and never regretted it. 

Happy listening.

Still a chance to settle down with a Technics 1200G, GAE, G2, or whatever you can find with a G in it, first or second hand.

@richardbrand 

Thanks for your recommendation. 2 issues… potentially shortcomings on my part… but that is me. 
1. I like perfect. I have bought some used audio pieces and even some antiques. The audio pieces were like new… mint & the antiques were in excellent condition. A 20;year old turntable could be in great condition… mine would… but this one wasn’t… to me. 
2. I would immediately start thinking it could be better, and go down the upgrade rabbit hole. So just under $7k all in. That would potentially be ok, if this TT was closer to perfect & had a better tonearm.  
To someone else, where only sound matters, this may be a good deal, but doesn’t work for me. Thanks!

@daveyf - to be fair, a lot of people liked the Naim Aro, which is also light. And yes, I have heard the WTA sound good on the LP12. What perhaps is interesting is that I struggle to think of any examples of people using the Ittok on non Linn decks. Interesting to hear if anyone on the forum has done that.

@OP - An old LP 12 with what is probably a thirty plus year old Ittok - very wise to pass on that one.

@signaforce   I was wondering how the dealer could justify $14K with upgrades? 

I really question who these folk are kidding when they come out with statements like that, particularly since the claims are easily verified. 

As an aside, you might consider a new LP12 Majik, as they are a very good deal, if budget allows. 

@yoyoyaya  I don't think it is impossible to balance the suspension with very light arms. For example, i utilize a very light WTA 'Black' arm. which works well with the suspension. OTOH, certainly an arm that is too heavy will have issues. ( as most non-Linn arms are ). 

@signaforce 

I'd be signing up for the Linn as quickly as possible.  Worst case scenario is you can sell it again for about what you paid ... if not more!

Get in quickly or somebody else will snap it up ...

@mylogic 

Thanks, I did read & even posted to that thread. My ears tell me things are pretty good. I think I will stay pat for a while. Perhaps I am in my Valhalla. 🤔

signaforce

Yes, a journey of sorts.

It does not bode too well to set your expectations too high and jump too quickly thinking you will miss out with any other competition wanting to get to Valhalla…(pun intended). It maybe doesn’t exist or ultimately unobtainable?

Another post on Audiogon worth reading is……’’Is it the gear or the ears?’’  The author there has the ‘’upgradeitus’’ syndrome well debated and it’s worth a visit.

Remember Linn’s Valhalla (once an essential upgrade) is now debunked!

Logical thoughts or not?

OK, false alarm. The Sondek LP12 at my local dealer was too good to be true. Not sure of the DOM, but it is a Valhalla/Ittock model, with a 70% worn Dynavector XX-2A. The upgrades were that the local dealer rebuilt the Valhalla power supply & installed the trampoline, so no Karousel bearing, Lingo PS nor Kore arm board. 

The only good news is Audio Advice was a Linn dealer and the technician is well trained and experienced & the price is now $2,200. It probably is a reasonable price, but no steal. I think it is a pass.

Thank you for all your well informed advice! It’s been fun learning about the LP12.

The LP12 was designed with European floors in mind, let's say, sturdy. If you have soft, or bouncy floors, then a wall mount will bring out its best. Depending on condition and "upgrades" that's a fair market price. I would still try to talk the price down a little. The design is older than the Linn branding, it's kinda the Chevy small block engine of the hi-fi world; a lot of parts and mods to keep it going for a very long time.

@Mylogic - re Ittok shortcomings. One thing that always drove me mad about the Ittok was its severely limited vertical travel - very easy to disturb the suspension if manually taking the record off the platter.

The soul of the Syrinx lives on in the Audio Origami PU7 which I haven't heard, but which is by all accounts a very fine arm.

One contemporary competitor to the Ittok was the Alphason HR 100S. And of course the Rega RB 300. The thing was that neither of those arms worked well on the LP 12 because they were too light to adequately balance the suspension. On a Roksan, the situation was very different.

dza

Going back to my earlier post (and all the memories of the LP12 from the 80s) l have read your comments on the Ittok.

l remember the introduction of the Ittok in relation to the turntable and recall it was surpassed by a new rival design. Apparently a small company in Edinburgh called Syrinx developed the PU2, a low mass arm that had caught the hi-fi worlds attention….well in the UK anyway.

The less expensive Syrinx PU2 was out performing the Ittok in side by side tests in listening rooms. The arm garnered the name, The ‘’Ittok Killer’’ quite by chance and keeps that legend alive today.

l have heard lots of LP12 turntables (some friends still have them) and some sounding fantastic and others not worth the money. In the 80’s lots of Linn owners adopted this killer. The King was apparently dead…..Long live the King!

Anyone else remember non Linn arms that sounded better than the arms Linn were peddling?

It’s a well known adage that one company can’t be the best at everything! Like your hi-if system as a whole, don’t let yourself be unduly constrained by one brand.

Thats my logic!

I have an LP12. A well configured LP12 is a delight -- lovely, musical sound, a pleasure to use. Because it can be upgraded on a modular basis, the key question is what upgrades it has. The Lingo power supply, particularly the Lingo 4, is key. Valhalla ps is a negative. Also, the arm should be the Ittok LVII at the earliest. I plan to get Kore soon, but think the table sounds good now. I guess the ability to upgrade annoys some people, but I like that I can take the table up to true reference level in steps. Meanwhile, it sounds great. The table in my other system is a fully rehabbed Thorens 124 with a nice SME arm and SPU cart and I never feel like the Linn with my Hana ML gives up much in the musicality department. If it really has $14k in even relatively recent upgrades, it's probably a great table. Sounds great mounted on a simple wall shelf IMHO if you have footfall issues (I did). 

@daveyf 

I think we are in furious agreement!  The Linn aluminium Trampolin base acts like a lightweight coffee table.  It does not really matter what the coffee table stands on - could be a concrete ground slab or a suspended wooden floor.

My comments were more aimed at those who are accustomed to massive set ups which might not have or need compliant suspensions to absorb unwanted vibrations.

As an aside, I am modifying the plinth for my Garrard 301 so it can either behave as a massive plinth, or have the table board suspended as Garrard intended.

signaforce,

I made that comment based on you're getting the Linn with all the upgrades.

It's at a level that warrants spending on a nice cart /phonstage

Rega Aria appears to get good reviews and a top rating for its price point.

A decent tube phono stage can add another layer of presentation that even the better SS can't replicate.

Of course, YMMV

@richardbrand   The Linn LP12 can work well with a Trampolin 2 base on a heavier stand. I use mine atop a Sound Anchor stand that is quite heavy. The stand does sit on spikes that sit on a concrete floor. I have 'AB'ed the table on a lightweight low stand and on the SA stand, there was minimal difference, with my preference for the higher SA stand. I did try an expensive HRS isolation platform beneath the table, with negative results...due to what you mentioned in your last sentence. 

As always, it helps to RTFM (read the manual).  Linn has an excellent one for the LP12.  In particular it stresses that the LP12 should stand on a lightweight surface, such as a light coffee table.  If wall mounted, the shelf should be low mass.

The Linn is a low mass design with long-travel springs.  Its resonant frequency is very low, but if teemed with a massive stand which itself absorbs energy and resonates around the same frequency, the two resonances can reinforce.

@elliottbnewcombjr Beautiful tone arm! Now that deck is retro!

@lewm Fun fact!

I think their label is “Linn Selekt”. I’ve got at least two of their LPs, and they’re sonically spectacular, but I don’t see how this bears on the OP’s quandary. 

Linn decided to make LPs to demonstrate what could be done properly

I mailed in a coupon and received a free copy of Linn Records 1st issue, Blue Nile, Walk Across the Rooftops, heavy vinyl, dynamic, holy smokes, did you ever hear it?

"

The birth of Linn Records

We bought a record-cutting lathe in 1982 because the vinyl pressings we were using to test our LP12 turntable weren't up to the job. We needed a more reliable music source so we started pressing our own LPs.

Within two years we had recorded and released The Blue Nile's classic debut 'A Walk Across the Rooftops' and Linn Records was born. We found our passion for music extended to discovering and working with talented artists. Soon we had a catalogue of recordings being sold to customers around the globe."

did you ever see/hear a Thorens TD124. Mine was a gift that I restored, new mushrooms, idler wheel, ... including new rubber for the arm’s counter-weight section isolation.

IF your floors are solid, oh my, she’s a ’handsome woman’.

TD124, SME 3012, $5,300

The physics of the SME arm are pure

I miss them both,

I just bought an AT160ml cartridge to get back to beryllium cantilever and light 1.25g tracking.

Would need to solve a dust cover. I had mine on a high shelf inside a cabinet with a door I could leave open or simply lift off for a party .... , stylus at eye level is a treat, still broke the damn brittle beryllium shaft

Sadly, my springy floors, no dancing, actually had to approach/retreat with caution

@elliottbnewcombjr Very good point… food for thought.
I have never actually seen one in person. Perhaps I will be excited with its appearance. In pictures as I stated it looks like my old Dual, but I think the details and quality components will excite me. BTW, I had the V15 Tll improved on my Dual. 
I also may buy the Linn piano black plinth to change the retro walnut look. Someone on this thread stated the new plinth actually improved his sound, so a potential win/win… for an additional $1,500 😒
Regardless, I will be excited if it sounds as good as most believe. Thanks!

I loved my Thorens TD124 TT: 9lb cast platter, Best BASS I ever got out of a TT (shure v15vxmr beryllium cantilever micro ridge, sme 3009II).

HOWEVER, the main bearing of the TD124, a magnificent thing, is susceptible to vertical vibrations, and my wood floors are springy, thus 'goodbye sweet thing goodbye'.

I give Linn credit for all it did for TT/LP when they were essentialy alone in the world, but if you don't get excited every time you see it, why?

@lewm 

You are correct. I was conflating two thoughts. One that the suspension is made to dampen smaller higher frequency vibrations and my experience that rapping on the top with unbelievable force would not result in a skip (or sound) but walking by the turntable would. 

Attached is the note I sent to my dealer. I think I covered all your recommendations. 

Jon, thanks! I did not expect a reply on your day off. Based upon my research, if the right options are installed it is a great buy. 

Those options are: 

 -Karousel bearing

- At least a lingo PS… Lingo 3 preferred. If it still has the Valhalla power supply, it is not compatible with the new Karousel bearing. Most people believe the Karousel bearing is the most important upgrade. 

- Kore sub chassis 

It would also be helpful to know the new tonearm & DOM. 

Four other question:

1. is the dust cover permanently attached, or is it removable. Removability is important based upon placement. Or it the Rega or Mitchell covers fit, that would be ideal. 

2. Would you allow me to try it at home, not only for sound, but understand it is prone to foot falls, although the new trampoline helps with that. 

3. I know the cartridge has a lot of hours on it, but what cartridge is it. 

4. You are not a Linn dealer but it appears you have done the service on this TT. From my discussions, it appears the skill of the technician is crucial. 

This could be an excellent purchase but I don’t want to fall into the Linn ‘money pit’.  

The attached is my audiogon discussion on the Linn. I do Audiogon forum discussions on all my audio purchases. 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/linn-lp12-turntable#2763404

You have been excellent! Thank you for bringing this Linn to my attention. See you Tuesday. Thanks!

Buy it, install it, smile.

@ericba Very good! Thanks 

@sealegs Even my lowly Pro-ject (they get no respect) teamed with the Hana ML &  Rega Aria easily bests my Aurender - Qutest - Qobuz digital combo & kills my CD - Qutest digital combo. Hopefully the LP12 widens that gap further…

If that can help you , I did an AB comparison between a brand new Rega P10 and a used LP12 Karousel, Kore, Akito B3, Lingo 3 PS, and Trampoline. Both mounted with a Hana SL. The winner was clearly the LP 12. Better soundstage and bass among others. Recently upgraded the Akito to the Arko. Wow! Even better openness , dynamics , bass and soundstage. IMHO a minimum Lingo PS and Akito tonearm , Kore, and Karousel is what is takes to make the LP 12 comparable to newer high end turntables. Good luck and keep us posted.

@tablejockey Your definition of ‘cheap out’ and mine are obviously different. Almost all audio components can be bettered regardless of price, with diminishing returns. I have been on an upgrade path with many recent additions. Over the last 2 months I upgraded my amp (LSA > Moon) & preamp (Rogue > BHK)… both significant upgrades to sound. My turntable is next. This Linn appears to be great addition. I don’t know yet what cart is installed on the LP12, but I understand it has about 300 hours left on it. I will either leave it on or swap to my Hana ML. Follow on plans in order of focus:

DAC: Qutest > ?

Phono Stage: Rega Aria  > ?

Cart: Hana ML > Unami Red or Blue assuming a Hana trade in program

I am more constrained by space than by funds, but by choice, my funds are not unlimited. I much prefer price performance, and like our new president, the ‘art of the deal’.
If I buy this TT, over the last 2 months I will have purchased over $25K worth of outstanding audio for only $8.5K. The LP12 is not my first choice, but it’s price performance appears to be excellent. 
I would be happy to hear recommendations for any follow on purchases. Thanks 

 

Personal thoughts….nothing else..,,but highly relevant…..l think?

Car dealerships in the UK potentially make more money on after sales service (Yearly MOT’s, Services, Finance and extended warranty’s) than they do actually selling you the new car.

Are Linn (and it’s dealerships) in the same ball park?

When buying a new car you have made up your mind what extras are wanted and you know what performance you want. I see no difference with buying a record player……

It is a wonder that Linn have never produced a new better model (than the LP12) to negate all the upgradeitus. Is that a real word?. A phrase often used in the hi-fi world in the UK for people who were never satisfied (and possibly a mental illness) for constantly changing their equipment.

The answer is possibly the same….that dealerships like money thrown at an old model maybe more than selling you a ‘new one’ ????

l know personally that when running an old car there are limits to how much l would be willing to throw at the dealer to just keep it on the road, rather than trade it and buy a new better one.

The question l am posing here is….Are the two scenarios any different from each other?

Thats my Logic!

At the $2400 price, provided that all upgrades have been done properly, IMHO you're getting an incredible bargain. There's a sense of realism that the LP12 has that has always made it stand out from other turntables.  The mere fact that it has been around for half a century and continues to be one of the more popular hi-end turntables only serves as further proof of this.  Especially since this turntable faces competion that is far more expensive and oftentimes not as good.  

Best of luck with the LP12 if you decide to purchase it! 👍

I would think the Linn is a no-brainer because it would likely be sellable for around the same amount if you were less than satisfied. 
 

I had a similar opportunity around 1993.  I had been using a Rega 3 and was generally happy but still wanted a serious TT the likes of which I couldn’t afford.  One day, my favorite salesman at CSA Audio in NJ called me and told me to get there now.  He has a pre-owned Linn LP 12 that was being traded in for a newer shiner TT.  It was basically unused for the 2 years he owned it.  They wanted $900 and the LP12 TT’s at that time we’re going for >$3K. One of the best purchases I ever made for my system.  A different league from the R3.  Everything on the Linn works as it did 30 years ago.  I know there have been many upgrade possibilities since then (this was pre-Lingo).  But my biggest problem has been getting my digital playback to come close to the pleasure I get from my Linn,  I’ve spent way more on my digital playback which appears to be a bottomless pit for spending money.