Linn LP12 turntable

@newton_john Interesting. I have not noticed a lot of anger against Linn on other forums, but then again, maybe I’m not visiting the ones you are referring to??

When you buy a LP12, you need to remember that you are essentially buying a modular and upgradeable system. The fact that the table was originally built in 2000, or even earlier, would not concern me. The main upgrade path for LP12’s is as follows…1) bearing, 2) subchassis, 3) and this can be swapped with 2 in my opinion, is the power supply, 4) tonearm and lastly 5) cartridge. Albeit, I have recently acquired a new corner braced plinth, which was a nice upgrade…and might slot in between 3 and 4. 
If you are hampered by a non-concrete floor that has any way of flexing, then I would suggest a wall mount platform, or if that is not possible, a very lightweight stand. The Trampoline 2 baseboard helps greatly in this manner, but it is not perfect if you have floor issues…or standing wave issues. 
As to set up…don’t do it yourself. Period. I know there are folk who were prior auto mechanics and the like who will disagree, but a great set up by a Linn LP12 specialist is well worth it. The old thinking that the table floats out of set up once dialed in correctly, is simply not true anymore.

Lastly , I would suggest getting exact particulars as to the specifics of the table you are considering. So far, it seems to be a good deal, but it should still have a good set up done on it regardless. 

I believe that the LP12 is actually relatively immune to foot falls, particularly if one is using a Trampoline 2. If there are issues, a very lightweight stand, like a Sound Organization, or a Target stand..and if available, a cheap IKEA Lack,will more than likely solve the problem. 
The only issue with an older LP12 with a Valhalla power supply, is that this is not compatible with the new Karousel bearing, which I believe is the best bang for the money in upgrades…and would be the first thing to change out, even over the prior Cirkus bearing. Nonetheless, a Cirkus LP12 with any of the arms mentioned would be a fair price at what you can acquire it for.

@richardbrand   The Linn LP12 can work well with a Trampolin 2 base on a heavier stand. I use mine atop a Sound Anchor stand that is quite heavy. The stand does sit on spikes that sit on a concrete floor. I have 'AB'ed the table on a lightweight low stand and on the SA stand, there was minimal difference, with my preference for the higher SA stand. I did try an expensive HRS isolation platform beneath the table, with negative results...due to what you mentioned in your last sentence. 

@signaforce   I was wondering how the dealer could justify $14K with upgrades? 

I really question who these folk are kidding when they come out with statements like that, particularly since the claims are easily verified. 

As an aside, you might consider a new LP12 Majik, as they are a very good deal, if budget allows. 

@yoyoyaya  I don't think it is impossible to balance the suspension with very light arms. For example, i utilize a very light WTA 'Black' arm. which works well with the suspension. OTOH, certainly an arm that is too heavy will have issues. ( as most non-Linn arms are ). 

@yoyoyaya  I have heard a few Ittoks mounted on an Oracle. Not my favorite combo. Also heard a few mounted on Gyrodecs, but also not that impressive.

I replaced my Ekos 2 with the 'WTA' Black, it was a nice upgrade as the 'Black' utilizes VDH Litz cable in the arm and I now use a Nordost Tyr phono cable, which is a big step up over the Linn T Kable.

One thing that I think should be mentioned is this: the LP12 today is a far different and superior table to the one that was brought out in the 70's. 

Over the years, Linn has engineered a number of improvements to the table, that essentially render the prior versions less able. The further back in time one goes, the more obsolescence is heard. 

This probably won't sit well with folks who are sure their old Nirvana 70's model sounds exactly the same as a current LP12 Klimax, but IMO, the main similarity to the two is the basic shape and the name on the lid, and that is it!  Otherwise, when it comes to SQ, ( and frankly design as well), the two are miles apart. 

@mylogic You seem to have misinterpreted my last post. I am saying pretty much the exact opposite to what you wrote! I am a big believer in the upgrades that Linn has come out with over the years. While I agree there is nothing wrong with owning an old LP12 model from any era, and being happy with it, it should be noted that the older model is not close to where Linn is now with the current upgrades. This is, at least IMO, one of the biggest strengths of the LP12 platform...if funds allow, the table can be brought up to the current spec; which applies to all vintages. There are no other tables that i can think of that allow for this aspect...with them once you have bought your turntable platform, the only way to upgrade is to sell and buy something better. Most times incurring some loss of original investment.

@mylogic   You ask would it be more economical to sell your early Nirvana model LP12 and buy a second hand or new model with all of the upgrades. The answer to that is possibly, but not always. It would depend on what upgrades are required and the ability to budget for a 'once and done' move ( which is not feasible for most folks). The benefit to the LP12 is that one can incrementally upgrade upwards...'as budget allows'. This aspect seems to be overlooked by the many detractors. But, I believe it is a very important one and one that has significant value. 

@yoyoyaya   I don't think the upgrades are as you say..'fixing flaws in the original design and engineering'. Instead, I think the upgrades are exactly that..upgrades. Brought about by evolution of the design and fresh thinking as time has gone by. 

Any older product could be labeled as insufficient if compared to what has come since, and evolved. For just one example, one could say that cars from the past were flawed in their designs and engineering compared to today's vehicle...but i think that would be a disingenuous statement.

@signaforce Given your description of the LP12 at your dealers, I would say that this is not a particularly outstanding deal. If budget allows, I would definitely look for a table with a Karousel bearing, or at least a Cirkus with a better power supply than a Valhalla. ( maybe pass on a shoe box Lingo ( due to age), but later versions should be considered). As I said before, I think the new Majik is a nice table..and a decent buy. Plus you will get it set up by an authorized dealer. ( The set-up is worth $$).

OP, I agree with you 100% that using an internal phono stage to do a A to D conversion is not ideal. Much better to have a stand alone phono stage that is all analog. ( which is why i use a CAT all tube phono stage).

The new Bedrok plinth is being discussed on the Linn based forums. It is the shape of the current plinth, without the radius corners of the 50th Anniversary model.

The asking price makes me question who would swing for it? There are options in tables that would be more adaptable to far superior arms ( this is the main area that i think Linn has been left behind with...their Ekos-SE is an old war horse that is well past its sell by date) that are now in reach price wise.

Presumably, ’if’ and when Linn does get around to replacing the Ekos-SE with a more competitive arm, the price will be jaw dropping! Certainly going by what they hope to get for the new Bedrok plinth. IMO, someone in their marketing department might must know something about their customer base, that the rest of us do not.

@newton_john I am no fan of any of the Linn phono stages. The Original Urika is, IMO, nothing special. So, when you went from a Urika to a Urika 11, you still are not hearing what a great analog ( and IME preferably a tube) phono stage will offer. YMMV.

@panzrwagn   While what you say may have been true decades ago with the Linn, this is certainly not true today. 
 

@mylogic Perhaps a logical person would look up why the table has changed over time...and not state an LP12 is always an LP12, before making such a statement....No?

@ghdprentice +1

@mylogic First you state this: “Why that supposition then that things have changed? An LP12 is always an LP12.”

then you state this: “Remember l am on record here stating that l actually agreed with the Linn doctrine when first published with adverts in the hi-fi press. ‘Not all turntables sound the same!’”
Which one is it??

Now you state that you don’t even own a LP12, but you have no problem denigrating the product. This kind of logic…escapes me.

@cleeds  I think you nailed it with regards to our friend with “logic”. Lol.

@lewm, I don’t think anyone here is saying that ownership of a LP12 is required before a member can comment on it. However, it would be perhaps better if those who have a negative opinion of the table…also disclose upfront as to their reasoning..and to the fact that they have no ownership of the table. Personally, I don’t have a problem with someone putting their 2cents in, but I do like to know if they are coming from a place of actual experience, or expertise.

@alessandrocat   Don't get me wrong, there are always a number of Linn detractors on all audio forums, including this one. The table seems to polarize folk into a position. Most times I notice that those who have the strongest negative opinions also have the least experience with the LP12. 

Maybe this thread should be moved to the Leica owners forum..

Hopefully we can get back on track now and discuss the Linn LP12.

@vitussl101   There always seem to be folk on all audio forums who have little to no experience with a Linn LP12, but who also have no issue with denigrating the table for one reason or another. I suspect it is due to a few issues that these folk have...one being jealousy of the success that the table enjoys..and two, because of racism against the owners. 

OP, Not hilarious. Anti-Semitism is exactly the opposite.

@lewm   I am not implying anything...it is known, do a little research. 

@signaforce I don’t think anyone here is concerned about criticism of the Linn LP12 from folk who have at least a modicum of experience with the table. i certainly am not. However, as I pointed out earlier, the table and Linn and more importantly, Ivor himself, have had a history of being denigrated by folks who have zero experience with the products. This is not a political aspect, because politics is not really involved here. (well at least to the extent that there do not seem to be competitors who might gain something by naysaying, albeit that is possible...but not really what is being discussed here).

Also, your OP was perfectly understandable, and my comments to the thread have nothing to do with you personally.

We have now discussed Leica cameras, Sony cameras and now the anti-semitism against the Tiefenbrun family, back to the table and its merits...of which there are many.

@newton_john +1

@zavato  While I agree that the LP12 is an excellent table ,and I am a big fan of it, I also think that as the price increases, it begins to bump up against competition that would/should make one choose differently. 

@newton_john If you take the LP12 Klimax and divide it into its various parts, then subtract some of these parts, you will certainly be left with a less expensive table.

For example, one can utilize a Lingo 4 instead of a Radikal, but you give up not only the better speed controller, but also the superior motor. I don’t think this becomes a fair comparison if you then say, well this table or that table is more expensive or less expensive...than this or that LP12 version?

The LP12 in its top flite form has increased in price a lot over the years, and yes it has also increased a lot in ability and quality.

When I talk about competition to the current LP12 Klimax with bedrock plinth and its price, I see a number of competitors that are now on my radar. More if we are also including a used table, which in many cases is an even better purchase. For example, one can acquire a very nice Brinkmann, or a TW Acoustics...for similar money as the full bore Linn. That option used not to be the case.

IMO, and I have stated this numerous times before, the basic table is close to as great as one can get, but it is severely let down by the arm choices that work with it, and the competition simply is not hampered in this way! Want multiple arms, nope won’t work, want an arm that has exacting and multiple adjustment options, no not offered, want an arm that is compatible with large number of cartridges...not offered, want an arm that utilizes an arm cable from the cartridge pins to the phono stage in one piece, nope..not possible etc.,

One other thing, IF ( maybe a BIG IF) Linn ever do get around to upgrading and replacing the old war horse EKOS-SE, I would suspect that their new arm would be priced so far into the stratosphere ( based on what they are asking for the Bedrok plinth) that probably just a very few would ever consider it within budget! Not ideal either, IMO.

@newton_john Agreed. With the added point that the LP12 at its Klimax level with the Bedrok plinth is expensive..in relation to its competition. IOW, it is then possible to acquire a superior product for a similar, or maybe even lower price. Are there even more expensive tables that do not sound as good as the LP12 Klimax with Bedrok?I believe that is also true.

The LP12 Majik model is IMO a very good deal and a superior option to the competition, which is why i recommended it up thread. The Akurate model is also priced competitively, IMO.

Not complaining about the price of the new LP12 Klimax with Bedrok, simply pointing out that not only have Linn now placed themselves in a price level of table that the consumer now has a number of options that are possibly better value, but also they have now almost required their more sophisticated buyer to "shop around".

@robob  You say the LP12 can hold its own with just about any table produced. While I wouldn’t go that far, as I have heard some amazing tables, like the Brinkmann, the new Esoteric, and even the SAT, I have not compared them in my system. I do feel that the LP12 has some inherent weaknesses that are part of the basic design. One such weaknesses, imo, is the inability of the table to accommodate multiple arms, also the fact that the table is highly restrictive of what arms will work with the suspension. 
Aesthetics wise, I would agree that the Linn is one of the better looking tables.

@newton_john The lack of choice for an arm for the LP12 platform, one that will have synergy with the old fruit box, is IMO the biggest down side of ownership of this table. So, yes, that is, as you say..my particular bugbear. Plus, the old war horse Ekos Se is way past its sale by date, again IMO.

Doesn't mean to say that I am not a fan of the LP12, just means my endearment has its limits. :o)

@newton_john  Another very good point. One that I’m not sure Linn has fully considered. The cost to benefit ratio. This ratio seems to be going further into the negative aspect in all of high end…IOW, the cost is far too great for the benefit, albeit I know this is a individual decision..and to some there is no benefit that is not worth the cost. I’m not sure how many folks on this forum will come to that conclusion, but there are certainly others that do.