signaforce
Yes there are a lot of LP12 bashers and the Linn doctrine of unending upgrades to cash in more money on used decks that still feeds the love/hate stories.
l believe in all the ‘sales hype’ that had fuelled this debate on how this manufacturer engineered the first ‘turntable you could hear’ to be true. What upset the hi-fi world is now evident and often discussed. The alleged supplier/retailer collusions that incrementally began elbowing out ‘rivals’ to achieve overall domination in the UK marketplace. Many equally competitive/reputable brands subsequently unfairly fell by the wayside in the 1980s. Now all this may have come back to haunt Linn for there is now a lot of backlash unintentionally of their own making.
There will always be different opinions on the Linn LP12 (bass bloom/constant fettling /servicing/endless money drain) but you pays your money and you takes your choice!
As to your final choice signaforce, someone has spent a lot of extra cash on this ‘cash cow’ already and that saves you doing the same. If you audition this turntable ignoring any hype and do some ‘sound listening’ and ultimately enjoy what you hear (maybe on home trial) go for it. Someone else has already put the original design restraints to order and you cash in.
Thats my Logic!
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Personal thoughts….nothing else..,,but highly relevant…..l think?
Car dealerships in the UK potentially make more money on after sales service (Yearly MOT’s, Services, Finance and extended warranty’s) than they do actually selling you the new car.
Are Linn (and it’s dealerships) in the same ball park?
When buying a new car you have made up your mind what extras are wanted and you know what performance you want. I see no difference with buying a record player……
It is a wonder that Linn have never produced a new better model (than the LP12) to negate all the upgradeitus. Is that a real word?. A phrase often used in the hi-fi world in the UK for people who were never satisfied (and possibly a mental illness) for constantly changing their equipment.
The answer is possibly the same….that dealerships like money thrown at an old model maybe more than selling you a ‘new one’ ????
l know personally that when running an old car there are limits to how much l would be willing to throw at the dealer to just keep it on the road, rather than trade it and buy a new better one.
The question l am posing here is….Are the two scenarios any different from each other?
Thats my Logic!
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dza
Going back to my earlier post (and all the memories of the LP12 from the 80s) l have read your comments on the Ittok.
l remember the introduction of the Ittok in relation to the turntable and recall it was surpassed by a new rival design. Apparently a small company in Edinburgh called Syrinx developed the PU2, a low mass arm that had caught the hi-fi worlds attention….well in the UK anyway.
The less expensive Syrinx PU2 was out performing the Ittok in side by side tests in listening rooms. The arm garnered the name, The ‘’Ittok Killer’’ quite by chance and keeps that legend alive today.
l have heard lots of LP12 turntables (some friends still have them) and some sounding fantastic and others not worth the money. In the 80’s lots of Linn owners adopted this killer. The King was apparently dead…..Long live the King!
Anyone else remember non Linn arms that sounded better than the arms Linn were peddling?
It’s a well known adage that one company can’t be the best at everything! Like your hi-if system as a whole, don’t let yourself be unduly constrained by one brand.
Thats my logic!
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signaforce
Yes, a journey of sorts.
It does not bode too well to set your expectations too high and jump too quickly thinking you will miss out with any other competition wanting to get to Valhalla…(pun intended). It maybe doesn’t exist or ultimately unobtainable?
Another post on Audiogon worth reading is……’’Is it the gear or the ears?’’ The author there has the ‘’upgradeitus’’ syndrome well debated and it’s worth a visit.
Remember Linn’s Valhalla (once an essential upgrade) is now debunked!
Logical thoughts or not?
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yoyoyaya
Reference your comments on the Ittok’s design.
I always thought the Ittok’s awkward design looked just like the M4 Sherman tank turret and barrel. An ugly ‘’SOAB’’, a phrase WW2 General Patton loved saying!
Now there was a foreword thinking guy with great Logic!
But l wonder what Linn designers were thinking to come up with that ‘’look’’ ??
Thats my Logic!
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lewm
My misleading you l think?
I should have referred to the yoyoyaya post #796, and was not a reply to his more recent ones.
His concern on ‘’shortcomings’’ (vertical travel) of the Ittok design prompted my tank like comparisons. Anyone can see the resemblances l refer to. Quite possibly and perfectively arguable, the ugliest ‘’SOAB’’ arm design in the Linn competitive war chest?
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daveyf
So if l read your last post correctly you are saying, don’t waste your money on ever trying to upgrade every part of an old LP12? It is too obsolete? Much like a Russian T26 to draw on my anology!
daveyf, you sound like the ‘’voice of reason’’ (in general) on the subjects, money pits and diminishing returns.
Maybe buy what ever vintage LP12 that you like sound wise and be content with that time capsule in time.
That’s also my logic too.
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richardbrand
One pair of speakers only please!
l remember British monthly hi-fi magazines in the 70s and 80s had this ongoing debate. Long before multi channel entered the fray.
Many hi-fi enthusiasts (the audiophile label did not exist then) had several pairs of speakers in one room at a time. This was the golden age of experimentation, equipment comparisons and tweaking!
l don’t believe it was a Linn only ‘’eureka’’ moment…..all part of the ‘’hype’’ which is now called ‘’spin’’ l expect. The debate is relevant today even more so with home theatre invading the old stereo living room domain.
Just thinking……Lots of everyday furniture radiate…….Perhaps we should think about taking out our windows, they must be the biggest passive radiators ?
The music would become more transparent with more air around the instruments and performers….ha!
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daveyf
ref. your post and my original understanding….
l was thinking along the lines of profit or loss considerations of upgrading a Nirvana you quoted as ‘’it is miles away’’ from the latest LP12. Would you really consider upgrading a Nirvana to the current Klimax considering the premium price’s for all new parts?
The incremental costs of replacing every module that has surpassed the original is huge. Would it be more economical to sell the old one and buy a new or second hand model with those upgrades you need?
There’s also the opportunity to sell on an older tonearm and upgrade that at the same time.
The money pit could most likely be much shallower taking this optional route?
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yoyoyaya
totally agree!
Sometimes it’s advisable to think outside of the box (and cover) !!
’You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete’ Buckmaster Fuller.
Begs the question, why have Linn never produced another model turntable? Money pit?
l have said before (as an example)
Car dealerships make more money servicing, selling extended warranties and finance than selling you a new car.
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lewm ref. rajugsw
l sound better than l look !
And could do with an upgrade !
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gordon
Buckminster Fuller
Typing from memory…. I stand corrected !
l have been listening to Elton John’s (self titled) album recently that features Paul Buckmaster, the composer and instrumentalist. Ha!
Now that’s a great recording on LP and SACD.
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lewm and your reply ref. rajugsw.
Reading back reminded me of an event on ‘looks or sound?’
Laskys we’re a London hi-fi store in the 1970s. They later opened stores across England in the 1980s. It was on a visit to one in Exeter l heard a few lads very excitably talking about a Marantz PM310 on display. I remember it like it was yesterday. The Amplifier was champagne in colour with led displays and really stood out from the crowd!
One of the guy’s suddenly and enthusiastically shouted out, ‘’I would like to SEE that one working!’’ Obviously this amplifier with added ‘bling’ was more of a consideration looks wise than sound wise! Not the normal ‘old way’ to audition a nice, but not too expensive piece of kit.
It all sounded wrong to me and totally illogical !
l had a quiet chuckle to myself and thought, how times were changing.
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ericba
l first heard the LP12 in the early days at a demonstration room in Laskys Tottenham Court Road, London in the early 1980s. A v B tests with a Systemdek lll turntable. I can’t be sure of exactly what arms or cartridges but they were identical.
A few preferred the Linn…..bass bloomy reproduction and others preferred the neutral cleaner bass of the Systemdek.
I stayed for a while and listened again. Only one customer made a positive decision that day and bought the Systemdek.
I remembered this and years later (1990s) l bought a second hand Systemdek lll from a local guy for £150 and I still have it today. Never needed to be modified, is still totally original except for changes of MM cartridges and has remained my number two deck. It has never needed recalibration and just plays on…….
l did by the way prefer the Systemdek over the Linn at Laskys.
Pleased it proved to be value for money and a keeper.
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@lewm
True to form.
l have always found it to be very profitable to be just behind a self titled audiophile (is as good as it gets) and snap up the bargain second hand equipment.
Wow….that is logical!
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@signaforce
The old saying……
‘It is easy to part a fool from his money!’
Springs to mind Tulip Mania (Dutch tulpenmanie)
The golden age of collectable bulbs began in 1634 and reached extraordinary levels of fashion and became a form of currency. ‘The Emperors Clothes’ story all over again because in 1637 the tulip prices dramatically collapsed. Fortunes were wiped out and peoples lives ruined.
This may not bode well for Deluxe, Anniversary, Special Edition (or however you want to dress it up) LP12 owners l fear.
Thats my logic by what has been posted lately.
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@newton_john
Those buying second hand gear!
Lemme tell ya, them guys ain’t dumb
Get your ‘stuff’ for (nearly) nothing and your ‘kicks’ for free!
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@newton_john
Going over to the dark side.
Lovely respray and craftsmanship.
l see the Quadraspire had to go too for a more in vogue modern look. Your decision, the wife’s or both?
More harmony in the music and home life?
It can be a hard mix to get right sometimes unless wives are onboard as well.
This subject has often caused division and thoughts of, shall l keep the wife and get rid of the elephant in the room, or keep the elephant and let go of the wife. Ha!
Saying this……l wonder if the latter has ever happened?
Anyone??
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@newton_john
STOP PRESS! lkea bedside tables sell out!
Thanks for that great breakdown of your upgrades.
Even greater, thinking outside the box for inexpensive solutions.
It’s not always the gear that counts but also displaying no fear in trying other solutions.
Car damping panels and spikes add more than the sum of all the parts and you may have something here. I was surprised your dealer did not like metal stands. Is he also saying the same for nearly all the turntable wall shelves out there too?
Strange the power supply results as it is far away from the deck relatively speaking.
By the way, the wife sounds like a keeper !
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@newton_john
A very open and honest answer there.
A question…..
How many handbags and pairs of shoes did she own before the split? Family expenses can be frittered away….in other many ways not so visibly obvious.
Check out deadhead1000 latest post.
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daveyf
Truth or not the truth, that is the question?
Why that supposition then that things have changed? An LP12 is always an LP12.
What’s the difference…..now and then?
panzrwagn
A friend of mine has an old British Morris Minor, he loves it. He said he has spent more time under the car than in it. I can’t believe the amount of time money and effort he has given up over the years to keep the old girl going!
This sounds very familiar to the hi-fi world and more so with turntables.
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@daveyf
l only stated the obvious…,
l have a fair knowledge of the ‘upgradeitus’ syndrome. A common made up word used in the 70s and 80s.
‘An LP12 will always be an LP12’, but l was just being ironic.
I have never said that no advances have been achieved with expensive mods or that the turntable itself is bad. Others have said, basic original design faults have had to be inherently addressed with the original LP12 line. The debate on Linn copying the Ariston RD80 and not improving on that is altogether another argument for those who have owned or heard both, l for one have never owned a Linn or an Ariston so l exert no bias in my comments. Historically l have over time auditioned both but passed on both manufacturers in the end. I am guilty in stating on Audiogon l believe Linn’s claims that it was the first turntable that brought awareness that all turntables didn’t sound the same, and that this claim to be true.
A Linn LP12 is whatever a person wants to make of it, but of course those persons will need very deep pockets upgrading the basic model. That is a well known thing!
Anyone who owns an LP12 who goes on to sell it will always put in the advert, ‘Linn LP12’ before anything else. Lists of all the new parts of any makeovers/upgrades that make it any more special will always of course follow on….. To justify the aspirations of the sellers asking price, and hopefully payback time!
That is just my logic
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 @newton_john
Thank you for the reply.
OMNIPOTENT….,Got me thinking outside the box again! Made me smile :-)
Good to hear a wife open to all positions!
More power is always good in hi-fi and she’s on your side.
l have just seen a new post on Audiogon (deadhead1000) on a matter l discussed two days ago……. Whether some enthusiasts have ever divorced a wife to keep the hi-fi.
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@cleeds
l totally agree ‘not owning something hardly frees you from bias’
But it does let you ask questions
l never get ‘hot under the collar’ or try to indoctrinate others. My logic……it is just that, my logic!
True l have not owned ‘one’ but l have heard a ‘lot’ and l didn’t hear anything to convince me to buy one…even second hand. That’s not biased but a reality as far as l am concerned.
Have you been or are you an LP12 owner who is a little peeved?
Thence if so, maybe perceived biased yourself?
l have not critiqued the LP12, just commented on the whole ball game. Remember l am on record here stating that l actually agreed with the Linn doctrine when first published with adverts in the hi-fi press. ‘Not all turntables sound the same!’
It was a bold pioneering statement that asked the question in print for the first time. I hope l don’t sound ‘biased’ here? It’s a fact!
UPDATE
I have just referenced these adverts and what l recalled is exactly as quoted above.
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@cleeds
l never actually said that you can’t ask questions if you own a LP12…..that would be illogical !
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@cleeds
l just can’t see the argument in your cut-and-paste, tried to see it from your perspective…it’s maybe lost in translation here.
l’m not arguing here, you are. Please educate me with this wisdom.
l for one like a nice debate.
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@cleeds
You may have cut-and-paste but there’s nothing in there that says (I say) if something is owned you can’t ask questions.
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@daveyf
Thank you for your feedback. If it’s bad, it’s not always bad but an ‘opportunity’ to review what has been said, digest and see what could have offended.
l do recall saying something really bad about the Ittok’s tank-turret like design that may have cut a bit close to the bone.
If l have offended anyone l apologise. I’m not afraid to say that.
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@thecarpathian
’Good to hear a wife open to all positions’
Just to say the comment has to be considered ‘tongue in cheek’ and in relation to newton_john and myself in our conversations.
I don’t want to offend anyone else tonight!
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@lewm
Thank you for your comments. I did not see them as l was posting back to thecarpathian about not wanting any misunderstanding on his comment on my conversation with newton_john.
@daveyf
My experiences with the old LP12 were garnered from early day auditions and demonstrations at hi-fi fares and shops in the 1980s. Also l have friends with Linn models of various ages, so l have a fair idea of the pros and cons of the turntable.
Thats how l judge any opinions l may feel like sharing. I may well buy one if the price is right as l am open minded to any piece of hi-if equipment if it excels.
l also take on board the suggestion the ‘mylogic’ handle may be confrontational but there was no ulterior motive why l adopted it. I also own a Logic DM101 MKII electronic which l have restored. Nothing else upgraded except the arm and various cartridges.
l rest my case!
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@newton_john
In retrospect of the last 48 hours……and after legal advice and visiting my shrink…
’l couldn’t possibly comment!’
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