Quite some time ago, but the Joule Electra LA-100 completely dusted preamps I had at the time (including a beastly two-box First Sound Presence(?)).
The Joule was just warm and sweet and dimensional and organic and ’set the notes free’ vs. the clinical sounds of most of the $2500 preamps at the time. Made me realize that the preamp may be the most important component in a system.
I still have two of the units (picked up a spare I found for cheap) which I circulate in an out of a couple of systems. True music making boxes. RIP Judd and MaryAnn.
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@tyray yes my system has had way too much gain (99db speakers) so I didn’t need any more. The unity gain works great and is dead quiet. That’s a first for me. The 12db attenuators are out of the system. It goes louder than I can play it so I’m good with that. The sound is very much like 6 Moons described, it doesn’t emphasize the attack but rather the sustain which gives it a more natural, analog sound vs the more common attack focused sound. It takes getting used to for sure. It reminds me of when I moved on from my then current interconnects and went to Audio Envy Studio Prestige. My first thought was they were rolled off, but listening more reveals they aren’t , they just don’t accentuate them.
Still early days but it sounds the way I thought it would, which is full bodied, fast, detailed but with a more natural feel. It’s also smooth and to be honest I never wanted a smooth sound but I have to admit that the rest of the system is “in your face” so it works. Last night after my post I sat up for a few hours spinning some new discs (Johnny Marr’s The Messenger, Cool World OST, Dave Stewart & The Spiritual Cowboys, Pylon’s Gyrate, The Ocean Blue’s Cerulean and Iggy Pop’s Free) and it’s a sound I like. I can see the sound not being a favorite around here so I waited for a used one knowing it’s a polarizing piece.
it goes good with the Odyssey power amp and it’s muscular tone and I suspect it would also be good with more midrange centric amps as well.
For reference my system is as follows:
Schiit Modius (balanced)
technics SL1200GR (w/KAB fluid damper) + Nagaoka MP-150 w/200 stylus
Sutherland 20/20 MKI (single ended)
Denafrips Athena
Odyssey Khartago (w/many upgrades)
Klipsch Heresy 4’s
Rythmik L-12 Subs (2)
single ended cables are Audio Envy Studio Prestige
balanced cable is Amazon (temp until O’Nestians arrive)
Morrow SP-4 speaker cables (will be replaced with AE in a few months)
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looks nice but no gain, no thanks.
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This is drop dead gorgeous, an a active zero (unity) gain preamp to boot. I think I’m going to cry...Let us know how loud or the level of loudness you can get with this unit, and the quality of sound. Enquiring minds want to know...And all that for $2000...You got any hair left? Thanks
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I made the thread open ended so future people’s will find it and read the wealth of info here. It’s true the thread was to help me find MY new preamp but this way it will continue to benefit others for the foreseeable future.
that said I purchased a used preamp and while it’s been 3 hours now since I got it up and running I am really enjoying it. The sound is different than anything I’ve heard before so my ears are adjusting. The Denafrips Athena is something! Clocking at 35ish pounds it’s pretty…..over built. I read and reread the reviews at 6 Moons and Audio Beatnik repeatedly so felt I had a really good idea what to expect and I’d say their thoughts on the sound are spot on. That’s all I wanted to add but don’t let it stop anyone from adding their opinions.
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DeHavilland Ultraverve
van Alstine T8
Bottlehead Smash
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Sorry all, had to take a break as all the research was settingmy hair on fire. I read a review for the Denafrips Athena which compared it extremely favorably to the W4S stage 2. Seems that, according to 6 moons (who loves to word salad the sh*t out of everything), they are equals with the exception of their voicing and emphasis on ASD. It’s never explicitly stated but he seems to allude that the W4S emphasizes the attack of the sound where the Athena emphasizes the sustain so it’s attack is slightly rounded but with a fuller sound.
I have to admit that a fuller sound and unity gain/no gain is really peaking my interest.
the biggest knock, in my eyes, with the Sachs, Rogue, Supratek, etc is the amount of gain. My current has 18, my amp 30 and I’m driving 99db speakers (with 12db attenuators in line). Besides being hard in the tubes I feel like, and correct me if my observation is not as cut and dry as I perceive it, the gain exposes ANY noise a tube makes especially once a few hundred hours are on it. So it makes thing frustrating. When I flick it on I dread it popping on and there will be scratching/static/ etc.
Lately my current one has been flawless. And it sounds great. Admittedly the whole tube thing has just frustrated me.
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@mitch2
i hear you... volume control implementation is quite an art in and to itself
i had the sonnet morpheus, which had a volume control, supposedly a later gen adagio in a smaller enclosure
re the pavane vs adagio, it could be the volume control, or one has to wonder if it might be even unit to unit variations, i remember at one point i had two schiit yggy's, same spec, same gen, and one sounded noticeably warmer than other... go figure!
one can drive oneself kinda crazy if the ocd/analytical bent is indulged to a fault
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@jjss49 - so true, and even adding one of the best implementations of a DAC volume control can change the sound of the DAC, as I learned when I owned both the Metrum Pavane (no VC) and their Adagio (basically the same DAC with VC)
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these days, with very pure sounding dacs using built in volume controls, it is very easy to test and hear the effect of a linestage interceding between source and power amp
there is no linestage, tube or ss, active or passive, that sounds like nothing - there is always a change, a difference
just like there is a difference if one changes the interconnects
it is never the same, one just needs to decide if the change is positive or negative for oneself
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Popular opinion suggests a linestage should do little other than provide source switching and volume control. It should add/subtract nothing sonically, and just be a transparent conduit between a source and amplifier. That specification may or may not suit your system. If it does, then a Wyred 4 Sound STP SE with level 2 upgrade is the closest thing I’ve come across to achieving those goals.
It isn’t very sexy, but boy does it sound like nothing.
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I think you could put the Schiit Freya + on your list. Quite a bit below your 2500 price range but if you put some nice tubes in it, it really comes to life. I have both the Freya + with CBS Hytron tubes and the Benchmark LA4 and I prefer the sound of the Freya + with of course the tube circuit engaged.
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Can’t recommend Rogue Audio highly enough, awesome sounding gear.
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I received the Audio GD HE 1 XLR preamp last week. I've had 4 days off from work and spent a couple hours a day listening to this preamp. My only other preamp I've had is the Don Sachs, latest version with the best caps Don uses. Also a great sounding preamp IMO. However, this Audio GD is something different. It is a touch softer sounding but not soft, maybe just a touch more organic. Dead quiet. Seriously. I didn't think it was on when I first turned it on. Just spacious, natural, detailed, dynamic. The Sachs is right there and fantastic, love the second RCA outputs for using a sub, love the form factor, the sound is alive and natural. The biggest difference to me is the Audio GD is dead, dead quiet and a touch more spacious. However, the Audio-GD has some quirks. First, its large and deep. It fits my cabinet but make sure it fits your space. Second, the remote isn't the most accurate. It's finicky on making visual contact with the preamp. The display is old school. For a premium product you'd think they could find a better looking display. The Sachs volume readout is much better and looks more contemporary vs. the 80's Seiko look of the display on the Audio-GD. Overall, the Sachs is better looking. May not matter to some, but for those with a WAF hurdle to navigate the Sachs looks more bespoke and is a potential conversation starter vs. the more austere looking Audio-GD. Also, when I dim the screen of the Audio-GD there's still one blue bar showing. When I cover it with electric tape it affects the remote's sensor. However, I love that the Audio-GD preserves the volume level on each input so I can volume match two inputs and then A/B on the fly. And, when it comes to sound I'd call it liquid gold. You can't really go wrong with either. Technically the Audio-GD HE 1 XLR is over $2500 but the solid state version is $2500, but might be worth the extra for the tubed XLR version.
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Well, a thought about passives. Theoretically they should sound better than an active, right?
Well, one of the finest builders in the world, Emmanuel Go, the owner, designer and builder of First Sound, started out building passives. I heard one many years ago and it left an indelible impression on me. It was superb.
He no longer builds passives. Why? Because his active preamps sound better than passives. I'm *not* saying that passives aren't a good way to go. I'm just saying that active preamps *can* sound superb.
Also, I'm not saying that preamps built using miniature 9-pin tubes *can't* sound good. I'm just in the camp of those who prefer the robust, hearty, fully-fleshed out beauty of the 6SN7 tube. Some of the others on this thread also seem to prefer preamps with this tube in the circuit. Hence some of the posts above...
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@gochurchgo
live anywhere near NC ? I’d lend you some to try out … the sys might give you a taste, but it’s not going to paint the best picture..
I used a direct connection from my DAC to my amp, adjusted the volume via JRiver software in 64 bit mode, plenty of LSB to throw away that doesn’t affect the music.. To give me a taste of “purity” before buying my current passive. The problem I had was not being able to control the volume unless everything passed through the JRiver software. So my streaming didn’t have any volume control and no flexibility to connect other components.. That taste of purity and simplicity was enough to send me on a deep dive into a proper passive.. My next project will be to turn my TVC Django into an autoformer configuration by using only the secondary winding and the taps, but it won’t handle my balanced input like my current TVC. Saving that for when I get bored as my system now sounds really good to my tastes..
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The Doug Sach's 2, DS2 should be in that price range and using 6SN7 tubes it is one awesome preamp. Doug has managed to master quiet power so that it doesn’t get in the way of the sound, and has found components that has the most minimal impact on the sound. After a lifetime of modifying Harmon Carden Citation and Macintosh equipment he found a design that is superior to those venerable tube component manufacturers. I have had too many preamps. Put Linlie E6SN7 tubes in the output stage and the preamp appears to disappear. He'll also match the outputs impedance to up to 2 amplifiers.
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Find a used Sonic Frontiers, SFL-1 for under a grand and play around with tubes - will shock you. Spend a little more and get a Manley, Shrimp. Have 1st hand experience with both of these playing tube amps and SS. Each are equally rewarding. Both a bit colored but in exceptional ways - match amps accordingly and you'll really enjoy the experiences the provide. Just my opinion.
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Reiterating the superb value of the $2500 Rogue Audio RH-5 linestage / headphone amp. An exceptionally clean, dynamic sound.
*Two 12AU7
*XLR input and output, a true balanced design.
*Dual transformer Linear Power Supply.
*Stereophile Class A
*3-way adjustable gain.
*Superb lifetime support from Rogue Audio.
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@gochurchgp
Jack is correct, the Supratek it’s adjustable gain. What makes a Suprtek pre stand out is it dynamics, PRAT, body and palpability. It just more real than most in this price range. Plus it does not lay poor recordings threadbare. As Mark indicated, the music will just grab you and you’ll be fully emotionally engaged, tap your toes and forget about the equipment.
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@jackd
Thanks kindly for the comparative insight between the Sachs and Supratek preamps. In reading all the great reviews previously I was really tempted to try a Sachs pre. Your observations align with others I’ve heard.
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@mikem I don't disagree.
I don't care about fidelity or neutrality, I care about sounding "good" to my ears. The problem with any preamp. passives included is that its a stab in the dark. I can't seem to find my SYS (may have loaned it out and forgot about it) as I wanted to run it and see, overall, what things sound like. I can tell you that in my current tubed stage, the warmest tubes I've had (Mullard 4024's) were my favorite and even the 6201's (slightly less warm) were less engaging for me. So it seems to me that my system is neutral to cool excluding the line stage (although my amp is known to be on the warm side) and that the warmest its sounded was the happiest I was with it.
So at this point I am contemplating buy another SYS (hate to do that obviously) to get a feel for what the overall tonality is (though yes I know it isn't matched to my components or have transformers so will be dry and thin to a degree). I can say for certain that extreme low gain/unity gain/passive is where I'm headed as I have way too much again already. Outside of that I am falling down the rabbit hole with speed.
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@gochurchgo
“Thanks and thats interesting. I fear that passives will leave the cold.”
It should leave “mostly “ what’s there and not add or subtract. Sounds like you want to “adjust” your sound. Not all passives are created equal, by topology or component quality. As with most things..
I’ve owned amps and sources where a passive would be a detriment, but my current amp sounds best with a passive. Trial and error.. and some money..
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Linear Tube Audio MZ2 is by far the best preamp I’ve heard in that price range. And that’s with the stock 12sn7’s.
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Supratek gain is adjustable via a knob on top of the units. I have used mine with amps with input sensitivities from .75-2.4 volts with no issues. It will have no issues with your Odyssey amp if that is what you are still using.
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@mikem Thanks and thats interesting. I fear that passives will leave the cold.
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Dont u get a better linestage by spending 10 to 15k?
2500 seems low endish with limits
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@markusthenaimnut at a reported 26db of gain thats a bad decision. I have way too much with a pre that outputs 18. I bet it sounds amazing and I did read extensively into it. Not going tube most likely but thanks.
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Interesting. I woulda thought this question had previously been discussed in enough detail that there would be no need to ask the question again. But hey! That's what we all love around here, isn't it? I mean, why else would I be joining in on this excellent thread?
You've got solid recommendations above. But I'd like to refer you to another thread. Go to the top of the amps/preamps forum. Look for the tab that says something like "popular all time". At the top of that tab you'll find the thread "Preamp Deal of the Century" which is all about Supratek preamps (which is what I ended up buying). The "budget" Supratek gets rave reviews, has for twenty years, and is right in your price range.
One other thing. Be warned. Once you get one of these preamps you'll spend a lot more time listening to music and a lot less time reading internet Fora....
Just sayin'!
Good luck and enjoy the journey.
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@tweak1 @palasr Yes the Hattor is very interesting. Passive and gain stage., I am very seriously considering this as well as the Denafrips Athena and Holo Serene. The Athena really excites me after reading more into it. Its a buffer with unity gain. The bummer is I'm all single ended (although my DAC is a $100 Topping so getting the same one with XLR is not a huge deal as I don't listen hard to it, its for TV and Movies).
I am probably not going the tube route as I have too much gain so a buffer stage and/or unity gain seems the way to go.
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Another vote for Khozmo/Hattor. Arek's latest passive using reed relays as opposed to a stepped potentiometer is fantastic (Takman REX/AMRG resistors) . My former passive was a Slagle/Intact audio autoformer pair (a fine sounding unit in its own right). My last active pre was a Berning ZOTL Pre One. I have used Berning amplifiers for the past 25 years.
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CJ Classic II
Into a Krell KST 100. Good sound but given mismatch in output/input need attenuators in front of the Krell inputs. (Recommended by a CJ tech).
Current CJ replaced an old CJ PV 10A. Interestingly, both purchased new suffered a blown tube within a couple of weeks.
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2 come to mind. The second I would likely not have known about except that the Hattor dual mono passive pre with remote that I had did not come with a gain stage. I could order it, but I did not feel comfortable to do the install, so reluctantly, I sold it. BUT, I came across a Audio Alchemy DDP-1 (which has a built in DAC) for $895. It took about 4 months to track down the optional PS5 power supply $600, which was/is money well spent as it transformed it.
Prior to the Hattor, I had been using my Oppo 105 variable VC direct to amp for both CD and SACD. CDs sounded amazingly better through the AA dac, and the AA has XLR inputs, meaning CD and SACD are switchable via the remote
Had I kept the Hattor I would have gotten a DAC which would have cost as much as the AA, so win-win for me
hth
hth
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@gochurchgo
I recently purchased a Music First Audio TVC passive. I had one custom made to order since I wanted more attenuation steps and no input selection control using the latest version of his Transformers. I have had a Django TVC based on the TX102 transformers for 20 years now. It’s been mostly shelved for the last 8 years or so in favor of active preamps. My latest active preamp cost me $10k as I was determined to get one that would be “stunning” and long lived in my system.
That lasted 8 months when I swapped it out to try a passive with my new amp.
While the Django had it faults, some ringing on certain frequencies.. it still managed to sound more natural and bettered my active. So I looked into other passives, autoformers, stepped attenuation and even put my Schiit Freya+ back in the system for its passive mode and buffered stage.. I love the Freya+ for its versatility, but it was still lacking in transparency compared to the Django.. after many conversations with MFA’s Jonathan Billington in England, He offered me a solution that would better my Django in an even more minimalistic way. So I purchased the MFA TVC and have been overjoyed with the results. The TVC handles balanced in and provides SE out to my amp. Matches impedance loads, simply lets the music through and doesn’t color the sound. Everything is more natural sounding, nothing added or rounded off.. Very pleased !
My amp only provides 11.5db of gain, So I use the balanced out of my DAC for more voltage out and bypassing the summing of the op amps to SE. Better sound all the way around.. also cost me 1/3 the price of my last active pre.. Passives aren’t for everyone, but with the proper system matching.. they’re unbeatable regardless of the price.. IME..
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Aric Audio...call him! He will happily speak with you and create a bespoke preamp that checks all your boxes.
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@gochurchgo Have you checked out Aric Audio?
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@mrdecibel No doubt the SYS isn't in that league, I feel like a passive is saying "this is your system without make up" and I'm not sure I want to know that yet lol. I was trying to find mine and plug it in and see what my pig really looks like with no make up lol.
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@gochurchgo ....Contact Tim Stinson ( the head honcho over at Luminous ), via the email address on the bottom right of his page. Give him time to get back to you, as he is very busy, along with the goings on with the holiday approaching. Tell him I ( Mrdecibel ) encouraged you to contact him. I might be his biggest fanboy ! I do not get a kickback or commission from him. I have sent to him many folks, based on my experience with my unit. Just to let you know, if you were to change gear and needed an impedance change to the Luminous, it is very reasonable with a reasonable turn around time. BTW, I had a SYS here, and it was bettered by the Luminous entry model. My best !
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That’s the problem with this hobby , every thing is “End Game”
Until you get to try something better....
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@mrdecibel SInce you mentioned it on the last page I have been playing with configs on their site. I like that they want input and out impedance (I realize I don't know some of those for my gear). I would absolutely consider that one, especially for the price and praise but as I said, I worry about what my system really sounds like LOL. I have been trying to locate my SYS and put it back in the mix to get an idea because as you said, being on 24/7 and not having mountains of gain is a great thing. Part of me wants to chance it and do the 2 input with the Walker Mod and then see what happens but not sure. I have the money but I like having the money (haha). I'd love to borrow one for a week and try it out though.
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Shindo Vosne Romanee LS. I also happen to have it for sale...
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I do not miss tubes at all ( this is just me ). My gear is on 24 / 7, and at full volume w / o signal, not a peep out of my 104 db speakers ( no hiss, no hum ), and I am ready to go, anytime. I have plenty of gain, as I could never imagine reaching the max level from my Luminous ( this is likely due to my speakers ). Enjoy !
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@oddiofyl I am also considering Supratek as it has adjustable gain and the Sachs has even more than my current (16db which is way too much).
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@oddiofyl yes well originally Don's preamp was the end game. So I feel like I'll wait and see if that happens, the question is what to do in the meantime. Gotta be better than waiting on Decware haha
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@gochurchgo ...My fear with passives is sounding thin...
I own an Axiom II passive and I understand your comment. In my experience, ever, a thin sound could reflect how the sound of your source is is playing nice, or not, with the rest of your setup..
FWIW, as I improved my transport and DAC, the Axiom II sounded better. I plug it in occassionally and listen for a few days and then switch back to tubes. Just like the texture and body I get with tubes.
Dsper.
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Some things are worth the wait, plus that’s not a lot of money when you think about it. I am having an amp built. No date promised , but that’s ok because it’s only a couple of months away . I got on the tail end of the 2021 queue , there are a few pieces ahead of me. Mines in progress, I’ve seen pics of the casework and it looks awesome.
If you stay on Dons list someone may grow impatient and drop out ....
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@abd1 funny I,too was looking at the Kinki preamp. I’ve been super interested in the Holo Serene (used).
As for Don Sachs, I’m on the list but there’s no guarantee my number gets called. He’s semi retired and so he mentioned possibly next spring. Was pondering holding out until then to see if I get lucky or just research it to the point of madness and take a stab at something now.
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If you really love Dons preamp I would caution you about switching to SS .... I think you will spend a lot more to better it with a SS . My “end game” solid state would be something by DartZeel or Dan d’agostino or something along those lines
Why? Because that is the caliber of solid state gear that I think really beats or equals the best tube gear I can ever hope to own , or own
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I am trying to decide whether to keep my CJ Classic 2SE or my Sonic Frontiers SFL-1 for a second system. I do like how the 3 varieties of 12AT7 in the SFL-1 sounded. Can’t really say that about the 6922 I’ve used in the CJ. NOS 6922 are $$$ and new production leaves only a few choices.
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