Line Stage Preamps that blew you away $2500 Edition

Mullard 6201 is a ruggedized 12AT7 made for the British Military 

I don't have a lot of experience with preamps. I mainly used integrateds until a couple years ago and got a Don Sachs Model 2. I love it. Not only does it sound great but Don is great to work with and I love the bespoke, handmade vibe of it. However... I've been curious about trying a solid state preamp in my system, which is predominantly tube based. I was curious about trying the Kinki Studio P7, but in my research I somehow came across the Audio GD HE 1 preamp. Then I learned about the balanced XLR version and while it is a tube preamp I decided (after way too much bourbon and way too late at night) to give it a try. I just hooked this beast of a preamp up about an hour ago and I can say it is so dead quiet I didn't think it was on. I'm not going to get into the weeds about this preamp as anyone can look it up, but so far it is impressive. I also like how much detail and dynamics I am getting at low volume. I tend to listen at low volume while working and my wife is in the other room, and again, very impressive. Its bit over the $2500 target, but the solid state version can be had at that price. Not saying its the best preamp as I can't make that claim with my limited experience but worth looking into.

@oddiofyl

Funny you should mention 6922’s. My phono preamp uses (2) also. In 02/2018

I ordered (2) NOS Telefunken E88CC/6922 - Platinum Grade - Cryoed for $217 each from Kevin Deal of UpScale Audio.

He ha a video of the Tele’s saying they would last from about 5,000 to10,000 hours: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g2VhyU69Og

I haven’t had any problems with them at all. When it comes to tubes, I’ve learned I will only by from UpScale Audio or Brent Jessee. It’s a shame now cause the price of those tubes are almost unobtainable now.

Brent Jessee even has a return policy on his tubes, which is almost unheard of. Buy tubes only from someone you trust, has a return or at least a replacement policy, period. As UpScale Audio has.

@oddiofyl  actually yes! I do have a set of Mullard 6201’s that have lasted. I replaced them with the 4024’s as I wanted a slightly warmer sound. Why would the 6201’s be so much more robust though? I’m genuinely curious.

Regarding the Quicksilver preamp.....  if it uses 6922 tubes and it eats them up try the Gold Lion 6922.  That tube is rugged and long lasting and you'd be surprised how good it sounds.    I needed to use one in my cj Classic 2se , it would get noisy in six months

If it is the 12AT7  I would try a NOS Mullard 6201....   

I tried using 6dj8 NOS tubes in my CJ and they didn't last long....   im surprised he said 500 hours for the Chinese tubes....thats not very long.   

@gochurchgo  Yeah, I think Rhythmic does the same. Reach out to each/that manufacture and see if you can/might get a loaner. You may/probably will have to pay a small deposit that you should get back.

After you introduce your self, tell him or her about your rig and after they see how much money you've spent on your gear and your seriousness you just may get that item on loan. You never know. 'Nothing betas a failure but a try'.  

You've already sold yourself. There're the sales people let them figure it out. It's Xmas man and Omicron is kicking ass. They need the sales. You seem like the type of guy that's got the moxie to give it a try!

Now if it's an international model, they still may have US dealers anxious to deal with you. Good luck my brother, and let us know how it goes!

I have a passive pre that I pop in occasionally. It’s an older Promtheus Audio TVC. I’ve used it with a few different amps,and I never felt the sound to be thin. Before I made that purchase,I bought a Schiit audio SYS. Within a very short period,I knew this would work for me,and began my search for the Promitheus.  I’m currently running tube preamps in my systems. I really enjoy the tube flavor. However, I can’t see myself letting the passive go.  Sometimes,I just like different. 

@tyray  Its more or less how REL does it. I like the change. As for the Quicksilver I don't know where to go after. If I knew a solid state that sounded the same I'd have it already. My fear with passives is sounding thin, otherwise I have my eye on one that does both active and passive.

Wow! I didn’t know you could do that! But it makes sense. It’s just a typical +/- connection. If the mains are 8 ohm and the subs are 8 ohm and the amp is 8 ohm it reads a 4 ohm load because they are wired in parallel? And the 4 ohm load gives a little boast. Bloody brilliant.

Put the Quicksilver up for sale. And get a different preamp. No problem if used.

@tyray My subs are now pig tailed off the speaker terminals of my mains. So banana from amp to lower posts -> spade jumpers to upper posts -> these cables banana from upper posts to RCA in on the subs.

He said: "1500 hours sounds pretty normal for tube life. We supply the chinese tubes and they last 500 hours and the Mullard 4004 about 1500-2000 hours".

I think there have been many excellent suggestions. I don’t believe any of which would be a bad choice. Tubes every 6 months? That can’t be normal,can it?  Maybe have a tech take a peek under the hood. I’ve been running tube preamps for about 7 or 8 years now,and only had 1 tube failure.  

Hey gochurchgo, for future reference, what cable are you using to connect your subs to you amp? As I still have one 15" PSA sub?

What did the Quicksilver manufacture have to say when you told them the problem you having with fast burning tubes? You would think NOS would be more robust?

Thanks

@rob2rc21  I have the Quicksilver now (non remote) and it blasts through tubes in 6 months, hence this thread. If I could find a solution I'd keep it. Otherwise its $100 in NOS tubes every 6 months (although the current ones are dumping after 30 hours).

Quicksilver line Preamps (with or w/o remote) or a used Audible Illusions.

For the price, the quicksilvers will surprise you. 

@gochurchgo 

A couple days ago I picked up some cables to run the subs off the mains and its much more involving. So, in reality I don't need the 2nd outputs anymore. haha.

I had sold a previous receiver with sub/low outs and it was time to upgrade my mains. Also, if you would've never written this OP, I would have not heard of the Coda Technologies FET 07x preamp. Thank you. What a hobby huh!

I have a phono preamp and have never had the problem of burning out tubes prematurely? Have you done the 'taken everything apart and put everting back together boogie?' And yes reinserted the tubes too? I ground everything, phono, phono pre, amp, anything with a ground on it.

@mitch2,

It does have a remote control and for the life of me I can't figure out how such a simple designed box works with light diodes to get such a sweet sound? Heck if I know?

The Truth is not a passive preamp, it is an active preamp with no gain. 

I believe it uses an active buffer stage (one buffer on input and one on output) to provide high input impedance and low output impedance.  Unity gain is probably a more accurate way to describe it.  With today's source voltages, I doubt you would have any trouble driving typical amplifiers using today's sources with a unity gain device.  Also, it would be much better at handling the interconnect characteristics than a passive.  It does not have a remote control, display, or balanced connections.

@tyray 

I completely understand what you are talking about, but just to be clear The Truth is not a passive preamp, it is an active preamp with no gain. About 6 months ago I sold my (2) Power Sound Audio V1801’s subwoofers and ain’t nobody more of a bass head than me.

A couple days ago I picked up some cables to run the subs off the mains and its much more involving. So, in reality I don't need the 2nd outputs anymore. haha.

Oh well. I'd be happy if I could figure out why my current preamp eats tubes or if I am just the unluckiest person buying tubes these days.

Thanks

Line Stage Preamps that blew you away $2500 Edition

none... sorry 

@aolmrd1241,

Thanks for bringing the Coda Technologies FET 07x preamp here to our attention. I haven’t as yet seen the prices for it on the used market, but if anyone wants to check it out here’s a review from TeaJay

http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/coda-technologies-fet-07x-preamplifier

@gochurchgo,

I completely understand what you are talking about, but just to be clear The Truth is not a passive preamp, it is an active preamp with no gain. About 6 months ago I sold my (2) Power Sound Audio V1801’s subwoofers and ain’t nobody more of a bass head than me.

I just decided to go a different route and power my system with a stand alone set of main speakers and an amplifier with out the need of subs powered by inboard amplifiers that don’t match the main amplifier in clarity and quality of sound. Kinda like going back to the old school approach but with new school highly efficient speakers, amp and front end(s).

And to be perfectly honest with you, I loved the sound of my PSA subs, I just got tired of moving around two small refrigerators every time I wanted to fine tune my room and system!😊

You are right though, The Truth and outboard subwoofers may not be best matched. Finding a good preamp to match a particular system is not easy. I appreciate your thread and look forward to your choice(s).

Coda Technologies FET 07x...hugely musical!

@mikem 

 Its all part of their mystique.. 

Yeah well about 40% of the total listening time I do in a year is done in the next 2 weeks and so now I risk have no music whatsoever. Seems like its not worth the BS, I don't know.

@tyray 

It’s hard to explain until you here it. It’s an after effect of the sublime, spooky quietness of The Truth preamp. Owners of The Truth preamp know what I’m talking about.

Yeah and that has me curious but it seems like people mention passives have a lock of soul and also bass and warmth. All 3 are things I really like. Driving, propulsive bass makes me happy. I frankly don't care about fidelity, I just want good sound. The word "spooky" comes up often with that particular unit and admittedly it has me curious. I have been also looking at the Hattor as it also have an active stage so I can have both.

@gochurchgo 

Tubes can be fussy for sure..  Try to wiggle the tubes up, then reseat them. I have found that the tube pins and the socket contacts sometimes need a good rub to get them noise free..  Its all part of their mystique.. 

@gochurchgo

been looking at used Herron, Hornshoppe, Supratek, Backert. I run subs so 2 sets of outs are a necessity unless there’s another way around that.

There is. You can use an Y or YF rca adapter splitter at each left and right rca outputs if your subs have no speaker wire connectors. Your main speakers suffer no degradation in sound because of their direct speaker wire connection to your amplifier.

There is some loss in gain in your subwoofer if it has only rca connectors but since most subs are set at 2 or 3 gain anyway turning it up is not a problem at all.

In fact, The Truth has an uncanny ability to reproduce the bass to where you actually hear the sound of the instrument playing the bass itself instead of the sound of sub cabinet itself and the subwoofer, playing the bass.

It’s hard to explain until you here it. It’s an after effect of the sublime, spooky quietness of The Truth preamp. Owners of The Truth preamp know what I’m talking about.

At a little over $1000 because of inflation it’s a steal. And I actually like the black Retro/Deco look with the nondescript black simple Bakelite looking knobs. It matches my Clayton M-200 custom stereo amplifier perfectly.

No need to buy used. For a little over $1000 buy new and have Ed Schilling custom spec it for you.

The last few days my system has sounded amazing. For whatever reason this morning there’s static in the left speaker. These tubes have maybe 20 hours in them. Awesome. I give up on tubes.

@ianderson 

I own the Supratek Chardonnay and have for two years.  At the moment they are set up in two different systems in two different house but I had them both together in the same system last year for a month.  To my ears the Supratek has more "meat on the bones" and a better ability to draw you into the music.  At the time the comparison was made they were both outfitted with the same input tubes, early 50's RCA GT's.  Just a more relaxing sound to me which may be attributed to the separate power supply or just a difference in circuit design.  Eventually, by the end of the coming year things will downsize to one system at one house at which time I plan to sell them both and buy a 6SN7 Cabernet.

House sound qualities. If you want this, do not go with a passive design. I want to hear the source (which has it's house sound), and the amplifier(which has it's house sound ). That is enough house sound for me. I need some neutrality in the chain, and preamps always have a sound. This, based on my system specificaly. Enjoy

@ gochurchgo

you received some very knowledgeable comments for preamps in your budget range. Over the years there is a consistent chorus of praises for certain brands which not only included SQ aspects, it a good indication about reliability and serviceability.

So far this thread has highlighted bankable names like; Supratek, Sachs, Herron, Zesto, Backhert, and deHaviland. While there will be house sound qualities to each, everyone in there own right are outstanding performers. Buy any one used, and it’s never a problem if your not happy to sell it. The challenge is being patient enough for the right one to come up at a fair price.

Good brands just re-sell easily, and fast. Although this comment is about a phono stage, it’s still illustrative of a prudent choice. The highly regarded Herron phono stage is a great example, selling one would only take a day or two. (Even before it was discontinued!) Same for the majority of the brands we’re discussing here.

The only other preamps I’ve not seen mentioned that are to my ears solid values and SQ performers are Wyetech and Atma Sphere. I love a good preamp, what has satisfied my ears most consistently are 6SN7 based versions. There just seams to just have more grunt, body and flesh with this tube type, a deeper emotional connection with the music with a well designed version. My MFA Lumi is another great sample, tho above the stated price range.

(Bold indicates 6SN7)

The other important aspect is the micro and macro dynamics. A pre that preserves more of the dynamics is a great sonic asset - it just sounds more alive. Some do it better than others.

I see you’ve also asked about a phono stage in another post, again Herron if you can find one at a reasonable price, also a Zesto is a great choice. Something you might not have thought about is a Supratek with a built in Phono stage. Great SQ, and the value is very high, notwithstanding it saves buying another set of cables and power cord.

Wishing the best on your journey!

@ Jackd

I’m very intrigued by the fact you own a Sachs and a Supratek. Understanding you have the latest Sachs, can you share which Supratek you have and a deeper insight to the differences if you could please?

@gochurchgo 

I have a couple of Transformer based passives, they are not all created equal. I just had one custom made for me that is minimal in design and function. I also have stepped attenuation based on ladder resistors. 
My amp has low gain, only 11.5 db of gain, so I needed to preserve the input signal as well as I could. I am using balanced inputs to the passive, the transformers match the impedance loads on both ends , so they are less sensitive to cables and impedance specs. The balanced voltage is higher and maintained in this passive even though I am outputting to single ended. so I don’t lose any drive with the transformers like I would with resistors or an autoformer.  The clarity , noiseless background and dynamics are all excellent. I’m not missing anything. It simply lets the music through without any altering of sound. Transformers turn voltage into current at attenuation instead of heat, so low levels sound more full..  I’m a minimalist and a firm believer in less is more , keeping it simple when it comes to the signal path..  

My previous setup was more conventional and more expensive with an active pre Alone was $10k..  I seem to enjoy music more with less spent and less mucking with the signal.  

@mrdecibel interesting. I don’t claim to be technically proficient but I’m curious as to what it was about the transformer coupled designs you didn’t like.

as for “do I want a passive” the answer is I dont know. I, personally don’t care about fidelity and neutrality as much as musicality and “it just sounds good to me”. My attraction to tubes is that I can color the sound to how I like it, but the b*tch about tubes is that they aren’t cheap and wear out.

I mentioned Hattor upstream as it had both passive and active stages. The active stages had low gain (I have way too much) and I thought that being able to remove the attenuators would be a good thing.

I too do not like transformer coupled passives. I have been using the Luminous Audio Axiom passive unit ( his very top of the line ) now for 4 years or so. I was into passive years ago with products from P.S.Audio, Mod Squad, and many others. For whatever reason, I felt these lacked something. I owned 2 hi end preamps ( at the time 6K ea. at retail, 1 tube and1 ss ). I also have a few RGR preamps, Hitachi ( do not laugh ), Soundcraftsmen, Hafler, Yammi, Citation, AGI, and maybe a few others ( some modified, all heavily chassis damped ), all working great. But, no cigar. I do not hear my Luminous in the system. The internal chassis is damped with Dynamat ( every preamp / passive known to man, can use some internal damping ). I damp everything.......tuning the component is involved. My dac feeds into the Luminous,single ended, and it works out great with whatever amplifier I choose to listen to from my collection. Short, simple signal path; great parts; Khosmo system; extremely well damped; nice readout; did I mention, I do not hear it. I do not hear it. If this is what you want and if it works for you ( contact them, he impedance matches to your gear ( and can change it at a later date for a small fee ) to match to a new amp ). Highly recommended. Great people. Enjoy !

I had an Allnic L-4000, dead quiet, holographic, great  low end.

Used Audio Research LS-25 MKII, bought several years ago for $2500. Last one I need to buy.

AUDIO HUNGARY APR 204 - GREAT,GREAT - DID I SAY GREAT TUBE PRE FOR $2.5K

Wyred4Sound STP-SE. Very hard to beat and only $2K.

Used Pass Labs X-1!!

The Conrad Johnson Premier 14 I use in my main system is the first tube preamp that really drew me in.  All of the good things that tubes can offer without any of the things that often come with that which I don't like.

Originally around $4K, you can pick one up for round $2000 today of you are  patient shopper.

Tag McLaren PA20R

ARC LS 27

Another vote for Don Sachs' tube linestage.

The Hornshoppe "Truth". 

$2500 would buy 2 of them with change left over.

Priced too low for many to take seriously.

Thanks @donsachs  Merry Christmas!

Hi

Don Sachs here.  On the post above, the preamps will sound pretty good in 10-20 hours.  I would say at about 50 hours, the tubes are run in and the preamp gives you most of the final sound.  They really don't completely settle down for over 100 hours because the output caps will subtly change and the manufacturer of the tubes I provide claim 100+ hours for burn in.  Again, my experience is it all sounds pretty nice at 10-20 hours, but subtly improves for another week or two or three.  I would not run any tube equipment 24/7, just play music all day or evening and then turn it off.  The on / off cycles actually help the signal caps run in according to the manufacturer.   You don't want to cycle tubes 10 times a day, but a few times a day won't hurt them.   My system is constantly going on and off to install gear for testing and my power amp tubes are going strong after a few years with no issue.

Also, on the X series speakers by Clayton Shaw... as has been noted many places, they take 200+ hours to really fully develop.  They sound quite good in 50-100 hours, but after a few weeks they sound better.  Well better is an understatement.  The Spatial Audio X series is a stunning speaker.   My advice is to install a system and live with it for a few weeks and then evaluate it.   People get in a hurry and post impressions before their systems are run in.  Happy holidays to everyone!

Don Sachs Pre-2 wow, replaced my AR-5SE with Don's and pocked $4k.

The EAR-Yoshino 834 is not a line stage amp, it is a phono stage. But speaking of EAR, the 868L IS a line stage pre-amp (a real good one), available used for around $3k. The 868PL is the same line stage with a phono stage, which go used for around a grand more.

The Ear 834p is hard to beat at half that price....heck even my pro-ject tube box ds2 @ a grand is pretty sweet. If I was to spend that much, which I wouldn’t, it would be the Tavish Design Adagio @ $2200.

For an excellent holographic, low noise 6SN7 preamp look at used Cary SLP 98.

tones and timbre are spooky real.

bulletproof design, excellent customer service department.  

@gochurchgo 

I got my hours wrong, the DS2 has only 15 to 20 hours on it. Don't know where the 50 came from, although Don told me it would take that long to break in. 

It started out with a bit too much treble, but that went away pretty fast; and it is more detailed compared to the CJ 17LS2. Also, the DS2  soundstage is a bit taller and deeper. 

My goal was to try 6SN7 tubes in a preamp, which are supposed to sound different than the 6992 tubes in the CJ. So far I am not able to comment on that. Again, early times with the DS2.

By the way, the comments about Don Sachs being good to work with are true. He is knowledgeable and will take the time to share and does not sugar coat things. 

Thanks for listening,

Dsper