Kirmuss 'In the Groove' Ultrasonic Record Restorer - Upscale Audio Edition

I don’t think that being accurate is "trying way too hard." But YMMV.

I guess things have changed a lot in 10 years - because 10 years ago it seems there were lots of misc US machines running at less than 40KHz. I’m not in a position to measure everything, so I need to take most specifications on trust. Guess I’m a little less trusting of everyone selling on EBay. Again, YMMV.

@terry9 You're trying way too hard and, like many people in this hobby, you're way too deep in the weeds.

I wasn't giving a Ted Talk on US machines. I was specifically responding to an assertion by @larsman that US machines made to clean jewelry are somehow unfit for cleaning records, which is absolutely ridiculous. In response to his assertion, I stated that all ultrasonic machines clean via cavitation and there's no reason that a machine made for jewelry can't clean an LP. I kept it simple because @larsman seemed to be having trouble with basic facts.

But yes, the kinds of machines that he was disparaging are the same machines that US enthusiasts have been using for many years specifically because they meet the criteria espoused by Neil and others. They have sufficient power to clean at 40kHz. They do the job they are designed to do, which is clean. They were recommended when I got interested in US cleaning and they're still being recommended. 

As far as QC, I very, very clearly said that I've used the same unit for six years with no issues. What more do you need? Video of it operating for the entire six years? Sorry, bud, but I didn't have the foresight.

@terry9 On page 43 of Neil's book, he demonstrates with pictures rinsing with tap water using the label protector handles and mentioned the distilled water rinse/spritz using nalgene bottles.  Marbles intact-at least in this context!

If I remember correctly, Neil suggested that I use a final rinse consisting of a distilled water spritz (my regime included a distilled water bath). Has he changed his mind? Or are my marbles disappearing?

For context, mine was a special case, in that I had access to running purified water for a first rinse, second rinse in a distilled water bath, third rinse spritz.

@ljgerens While I don't necessarily advocate for using tap water, others including Neil Antin do. I offered it as a possible remedy to rinse detergent if used in the US machine.   In my post I recommended rinsing with Distilled water after using tap water.  Since the water beads on the vinyl surface, there should be little transfer of contaminants to the record surface unless allowed to dry.  A distilled water rinse eliminates the problem, since the contaminants are clearly water soluble. Using detergent without a rinse would create a much bigger problem.  

@terry9 + 1

@larsman US is a common abbreviation for ultrasonic, bud. It has been used many times in this very thread. 

@jeffreylee   "What did I say that's misleading?"

You said, "There’s no difference between the way US machines operate. Transducers create bubbles, the bubbles clean. That’s it."

That is so silly that you contradicted it in the next sentence. Then you ignore the fact that cleaning efficiency depends on both particle size and frequency. You also do not discuss the particle size usually encountered on records, and hence which frequency a record cleaner should use, and whether or not jewelry cleaners use this frequency.

You do not discuss power generated. Or power at the record face. Or distribution of power at the record face. Or QC. You do not discuss how closely the unit which has been delivered, adheres to spec.

You do not discuss the cleaning solution, type of surfactant required, rinsing, etc.

That do?

@jeffreylee - I don't know what you are reading; DeGritter is made in Estonia and it says this on their website:

We’re currently a team of 14, based in Tartu, Estonia, European Union. We operate on about 450 square meters, where we’ve put together machines for clients all over the world. Our space has an assembly room, a dedicated quality assurance room and a RnD area.

We like solving complex issues and we invest in our employees. We also have an internal kickstarter programme for motivation – who knows, maybe the next big Degritter feature or something totally new altogether will come from ther

@orthomead 

I would not rinse with tap water. Tap water contains numerous minerals, hydrocarbons and a fluorine containing compound, typically either sodium fluoride (NaF); sodium fluorosilicate (Na2SiF6); or fluorosilicic acid (H2SiF6). All of these will contaminate the previously cleaned record surface. I would only recommend using distilled water for a record rinse. 

@terry9 What did I say that's misleading?

@larsman If the DeGritter isn't an US machine then why is it repeatedly described as such on the DeGritter website?

The Kirmus machine is a modified Isonic unit.  You don't need his process to get a clean record. I have both the Isonic and Degritter.  Degritter is the best, but more expensive.  For used records I start with my VPI, followed by the isonic and finish with the Degritter with distilled water and ethanol.  They all make a difference.  Can't beat the Isonic for the price.  I would clean less than 5 at a time and read Neil Antin's on line book for best cleaning fluid.  A rinse step is vital if you use detergents.  Handles to flush the record with tap water and a final spritz of Distilled water make the rinse step easier.

@jeffreylee - Here is your logical sense - DeGritter is not a US machine.

I don't care about 'cosmetics' or 'prestige'. I care about something that is well-made and trustworthy.  

Just in case anyone reads jeffrey's post of  07:14, it's misleading. Suggest you read Neil's bible. Reference above.

I purchased the iSonic CS6.2-Pro Motorized Ultrasonic Vinyl Record Cleaner for 10 LPs and will arrive on Monday. I'll post the results. 

An ultrasonic cleaner is the best method that I have found to clean records. There is no need to spend a lot of money on an ultrasonic cleaner. It is a very mature technology and the first patent for ultrasonic cleaning of records was issued in 1968. I built my first ultrasonic record cleaner in 1979 and used it for over 30 years with excellent results. There are a number of ultrasonic record cleaners available on Amazon for around $200. I personally have not used them but I know of several people who have and are pleased with the results. Just make sure you get a spindle that can handle multiple records and has adjustable speeds.

The key to optimum cleaning in an ultrasonic bath is using only distilled water and a suitable surfactant at the appropriate concentration, at or above the Critical Micelle Concentration (CMC). Non-ionic Surfactants are the only type of surfactant that should be used for cleaning records. Triton X-100, which was developed by Dow many years ago, is an example of a non-ionic Octylphenol Ethoxylate surfactant. In its day it was a reasonable choice for use in an ultrasonic bath to clean vinyl records. Today, the best surfactants for cleaning vinyl records in an ultrasonic bath are Dow’s Tergitol 15-S series of non-ionic surfactants which are secondary alcohol ethoxylates. Dow’s Tergitol 15-S series of non-ionic surfactants provide improved cleaning action with enhanced detergency and wetting, are highly soluble in water and are more environmentally friendly.

I would recommend Tergitol 15-S-7 as my first choice. The Library of Congress recommended recipe for a record cleaning solution consists of 2 mL of Dow Tergitol 15-S-7 in 4 L of deionized water (about 10 drops per liter). Another reasonable choice is Tergikleen which is a blend of two nonionic surfactants – Dow Tergitol 15-S-3 and Dow Tergitol 15-S-9.

The other keys to optimum cleaning in an ultrasonic bath are the rotation speed and time in the bath. The slower rotation speeds are more efficient at cleaning compared to faster speeds. I found that between 1 to 3 RPM was ideal. I also found that longer than a few minutes in the ultrasonic bath had little beneficial effect on the overall cleaning process and the possibility of a detrimental effect. I settled on a 6 min time for my records purchased new which had no obvious contamination and a 9 min time for previously used records. I followed the ultrasonic cleaning with a 1 min medium spin rate rinse in a second bath and followed that with a spin dry at a faster speed for a couple of minutes. This left no water droplets on the record surface but an occasional droplet on the record edge which I removed with a clean room wipe. I typically did 10 records at a time and the entire process took between 15 to 20 min.

I would avoid the kind of thing you see on Amazon for $160; these are made for cleaning jewelry and other assorted items, and I wouldn’t expect them to last very long; I’d stick with one that is made only for cleaning records.

@larsman You aren’t making any logical sense here. There’s no difference between the way US machines operate. Transducers create bubbles, the bubbles clean. That’s it. The only difference is in the frequency used, and many jewelry cleaners use the same frequency as the majority of $4000 cleaners.

Records can easily be cleaned in a commercial jewelry cleaner and jewelry can easily be cleaned in a Degritter. It’s all the same. You’re paying for cosmetics and, I don’t know, prestige?

I did a lot of research before getting into US and bought a $180 machine on Amazon, added a Vinyl Stack (rip) and it has worked flawlessly for six years. The entire setup cost under $400.

Just get the Degritter Mk II.  Superb results, reliable, easy to use & solid support.  

I have a Kirmuss and use it when I have a batch of dirty albums to clean. Works well, but I set it up for 10 plus albums. Not handy if you clean all the time. Nice weekend project if I’ve found used albums that need a good deep clean. 
 

it doesn’t work on every record. Some mold etc can be too much to restore, but it is surprisingly good at tackling old records you might have written off. 

How much power? How much power delivered to each record face? What frequency? How's the QC? Read the bible before you leap. IMO.

Looking into this one too
iSonic CS6.2-Pro Motorized Ultrasonic Vinyl Record Cleaner for 10 LPs, Doubled Power of CS6.1-PRO

+1 inagroove. I would highly recommending experimenting to see what works. It's just water and plastic/vinyl, so you won't hurt anything.

I have about 1200 records. I have two processes, both using CleanerVinyl RCM. Have had the RCM for about 8 years or so.

1 - for new and mint/near mint used - 15 minutes in RCM @ 35C. air dry in RCM with fan. Then wooden rack air dry. I was worried that the fan would add more dirt to the record, but that's not the case.

2 - for dirty records where #1 doesn't work. 10 minutes in RCM @35C. scrub - literally - with Disc Doctor record cleaner. about 10-20 scrubs for 10% or so of the record. Do both sides. Might as well right? Tap rinse. 10 minutes in RCM @35C. Scrub again. Rinse again. RCM again. Then fan dry in RCM. Air dry in rack. 

Out of all my records, I had to use #2 for maybe 15-20 of them. And it worked on all of them save one. 

YMMV of course. Good luck.

Like you, I prefer a rinse. I bought two HumminGurus; one for wash and one for rinse. I previously owned a VPI and that would be ideal to do your rinse and dry.

The new HG model looks to be similar in performance to the DeGritter at 1/3 the cost.

The Kirmuss is an effective system, you just have to be willing to spend the time needed to perform the cleaning process for each album you clean. 

@vinylvalet, is there no rinse involved with the HumminGuru? Thats an attractive price, even for the advanced model. I'm wondering if I would still need to rinse and dry with my VPI HW? 

I started with a spin clean (still use it for soiled records) then bought an okki nokki rcm and finally a degritter mk2 . I use the okki nokki for the rinse with distilled w since the vacuum finally removes any cleaning fluid used during the US. This regimen works spectacularly.

@devinplombier - personally, I use distilled water and nothing else in my DeGritter. I would avoid the kind of thing you see on Amazon for $160; these are made for cleaning jewelry and other assorted items, and I wouldn't expect them to last very long; I'd stick with one that is made only for cleaning records.

I second the ElmaSonic P60. I have a P60 rebranded by Fisher Scientific, and add-on rotisseries. I have cleaned more than 3000 records. My current regime is spin-clean with running pure water, 2 records on the spindle for 10 minutes of US cleaning, spin-rinse with running pure water, bath in distilled water, spritz with distilled water, air dry.

Excessive? After 1000 hours on my Koetsu the stylus showed virtually no wear (by photomicrograph). The re-tip which I didn’t need would have cost $7K. Excessive spend on US? I don’t think so.

Kirmuss is an ultra-sonic cleaner with a rotisserie added on. It is just a tool. How you use it is up to you. You don't have to follow the "21 step" process or use the cleaning product that is recommended. You can just use distilled water, maybe add a little alcohol or surfactant if you want. There are tons of discussions on the process here. Read, experiment, think. Selling the tool because you don't like the process is just dumb.

I have heard very good reports on Degritter which I am sure is a better buy.

I use a KL Audio which is sadly no longer made, but if you can find a used one in good condition it would be a very good buy

First off, thanks for everyone chiming in.  I appreciate everyones time, wisdom and experience. I'll watch some youtube videos on this topic and see if that clears things up for me. It's a lot to digest!

Background:  I have cleaned ~4500 LPs using the following process:  

1. Tap rinse
2. Spin Clean w soap - 6 revolutions, each side
3. Ultrasonic clean w soap at 2 different frequencies (Elmasonic P, from Germany, 37/80 kHz), the 80kHz produces less heat,- which is a key issue for LPS (most units do not offer this feature).
4. Tap rinse / drip dry
5. Spin Clean w D.I - 6 revolutions, each side
6. Drip dry in a rack / wipe with Spin Clean drying cloths
7. Store in new sleeves...

First, I know this process is/was excessive. I previous worked in an analytical chemistry lab, so I was accustomed to excessively clean processes/equipment... I cleaned a few LPs each evening, and many during the weekends.  

I have finished this deep cleaning. Now I simply dust each side with a Disc Washer brush before playback.

I recommend you try a few steps to see what satisfies you, your needs and your time-budget.

Second, please know that cheap equipment is CHEAP ONLY ONCE.  After that, you pay every time you use/replace it...  (a lesson that my favorite boss taught me years ago).  I will never buy a Kirmuss gear - period.  There are very few companies that I refuse to consider.   I have no confidence in their products - YMMV.

Best of luck with your adventure and feel free to message me if you want to 'pick my brains' for more details...

I'm reading this thread with some interest as my vinyl collection could realistically use a good cleaning, and I believe "dry" cleaning methods do more harm than good.

In the spirit of 80/20, how about this thing? It has its critics, but few question it does a good job cleaning records.

Also, what do you put in these machines? Distilled water? Thanks! 

Meet him at Pacific Audio Fest, he was like a used car salesman. Told me right off the bat, that what I'm doing is 100% wrong, and my ultrasonic machine is crap (didn't even ask what I was using). He was very pushy, and turned me off. But he did plant a bug, and did some research on it. 

No doubt, it will seriously clean a record, but so will all the other good methods. What I don't like is that you clean the same record 3-6 times, that is a LOT of cleanings! One record can take over 30min to clean. In an hour, you can only clean what 3 records tops? Who has that kind of time? 

I have the Hummigru, it works great for me, and is part of my 2-4 step cleaning process. Used dirty records take the most time, but new ones are done in 2 steps. Usually get 6-8 records done in an hour. I wait till there are 20-30 records to clean, take most of the day to do so. But it's far less involved than his process, in an hour, the actual work is like 10-15min.

He also says that all other known record cleaning agents are crap. However, he is using antifreeze to clean his records. Not sure how I feel about that. 

Watched this video, that was enough to not want his system. 

https://youtu.be/49qDRPabAU0?si=DjIS3pf_GE-4K3Mx

I had a Kirmuss for several months, and actually sold 3 units (dealer disclaimer) but after the many steps involved (manual shows 10. see here: https://kirmussaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/KirmussAudio-v10_20-a-User-Manual-KA-RC-1-Vinyl-Record-Restoration-System-2.pdf The machine just sat around so sold it. My other customers all sold theirs as well. It worked fine but it really was a looooong process to do it as described. 

I own and have used the Kirmuss for the last 5 years.  There are not 21 steps to clean a record. You press the start button twice and that's it.  The record is clean in about 5 minutes.  You do have to dry the record off, obviously.  The unit has given me no issues in 5 years of extensive use.

I don't have experience with the others, but I've had an original DeGritter for 3 or 4 years now, have cleaned hundreds of albums in it, and it works as well as the day I bought it, which is 'perfect'. Expensive purchase but one I did not regret, and now they've got an improved model since then; I don't need to upgrade, though. 

Elmasonic P60H 

dual hz cavitation 

internal heater

German made 

the trick is to find a rotisserie to rate your records

i found this option from a person who cleans records for a living 

good luck 

@knollbrent first off, I have never used a Kirmuss machine but have seen several full demonstrations of Kirmuss and others using this/these machine(s).  Based on this, I do agree that it requires a hell of a lot more time than I am willing to invest cleaning records.

Secondly, I very strongly second the recommendation to read Neil Antin's "Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records-3rd Edition" in the Vinyl Press.  This is by no means an easy read but worth every second of your time if you are serious about investing in an US record cleaning machine or system which, in my opinion, is an absolute must for vinyl lovers.  I would also recommend reading through a couple of threads I started here called "Record Cleaning Machines" and "KI Audio or Degirtter Mark II".  Neil, ever so gracious with his time and expertise, contributed to both.

Finally, I recommend checking out CleanerVinyl.com with an especially close look at the Elma Sonic P60H.  Building an US cleaning system around this Elma Sonic P60H machine will yield results as good as the Degritter at considerably less the cost, based upon an A/B comparison I've done between my CleanerVinyl based system and an original Degritter machine.  Nevertheless, the Degritter, with an extra water tank is still, in my opinion, still the most eloquent (i.e.  easiest & least time-consuming) and most relatively cost-effective US record cleaning system I know of, unless you have the space for and want to shell out some serious bucks for a KLaudio machine.

Good Luck!

I'd buy a degritter. Very reliable

I currently own an Audiodeske Glass which works great, but has had some reliability issues.

I also have a VPI 16.5 for heavier duty initial cleaning if necessary for used records.

I had a Kirmuss briefly. Following their cleaning protocol requires more time than I have available for the task.

Take a candle-lit bubble bath everyday. Hug your records and get in the tub with them. You could even setup the bathtub in your listening room for convenience purposes.

It is the only way to get your records to sound the best.

Can't the Kirmuss be used without all the steps as a well designed ultrasonic cleaner?  It's less than 1/3 of the price of the expensive ones, and I have been thinking about getting one.

I owned a Kirmuss and agree; does a great job cleaning LPs but was too much hassle.

For about half the price, I purchased the ultra-sonic LP cleaner linked below. Does a great job and is easy to use.

HumminGuru Ultrasonic Vinyl Record Cleaner

They have a new, more costly model. Still several hundred less than the Kirmuss. I have no experience with it.

HumminGuru NOVA Advanced Ultrasonic Vinyl Record Cleaner

After doing some research an audiophile friend and I went partners on a new Degritter Mk II. We have had it for about 6 months now and are happy with it. It does make a noticeable difference with record sound quality. I’ve also found that using it helps with static electricity as I rarely use my record brush. 

Buy a Loricraft 4!

Many confirmations about ultrasonic cleaning being a good method but no one offering recommendations of alternatives to Kirmuss.  I agree the price is high and the process extensive. I have never use US cleaning but I do believe it should clean thoroughly if the design is correct. I use the vacuum system from Pro-Ject and for 40 years used nothing but a dry brush. Now I wet clean even a newly bought album. I have albums that are 50+ years old that at completely silent. I think the starting point is a huge factor. Certainly the practice of usage has an influence but many albums are bad from the start. 

@rsf507 I was not disputing your post. I know nothing about Kirmuss and so I make no comment on that product. But Antinn’s Bible gives all the technical information necessary to make an informed decision in any particular case.

Personally, I am keen on 80kHz cleaning, lab grade reagents, and heroic rinsing with pure water. YMMV.

PS On re-reading my post, I can see how it might be interpreted as a favourable review of Kirmuss. My post was intended to be a favourable review of US cleaning, not Kirmuss, because I know nothing about Kirmuss. Sorry for the confusion.

Let me preface this by stating I have not used a Kirmuss RCM myself. I did attend his presentation at PAF in August where he made a good case concerning his credentials and his philosophy on recovering LPs. And considering the deal he was making on his machines, I almost pulled the trigger. 

However before I committed I went online and read reviews both pro and con. I’m going to say that I was dissuaded by the reports of cartridges being fouled by some residues left on LPs. Now was it due to poor usage or something caused by the process? I don’t know and want to learn more before I made a decision. 

Happy listening. 

@terry9 I agree US cleaning is great it's just that the Kirmuss isn't worth the admission price. There are many other alternatives.