Listening to to my stereo last night thinking about what upgrade I may do in the future. May upgrade my CD player or change phono cart or a new arm? But one of the things I will never change is my speakers. My journey has ended with the speakers I have now. Are you like me and have your forever speakers? Oh mine are a set of 30 year old 4 way JBL Studio Monitors 4345s.
Hifiman put it best. Mr Green, you are a manufacturer posting on Audiogon and should have that in your signature or point that out in your post. Just using your name doesn't work. Yes, in your mind, your older designs work nicely and that's awesome. I would love to listen to my system vs yours. Nearly any manufacturer from years past has upgraded many, if not all their components to better ones that technology offers us today in order to give better sound. I too love some of my older gear, but I would never say that they sound as good as comparable gear of today (what today's price would be. hope I said that correctly).
I actually worked with ProAc directly when I needed new drivers, because their foam surrounds all failed after 15 years. They didn't make those drivers anymore, so they gave me their newer ones that didn't have the foam surrounds. They rebuilt my crossovers to match the drivers with top of the line components and that included better internal wiring also. When I got them back and burned them in, the sound was worlds better in every way. I was just floored. I kept them for another 8 years or so. Until I heard the Vandersteen 's and their carbon technology. So much smoother, more extended, more detailed, just better in every way compared to older Vandersteen designs that I wasn't in love with. The only thing that changed over the years was the state of the art technology that Richard uses. Even speakers that I would never own, sound better today with the new tech they use. Many like living in the past and that's cool for many. Just agreeing to disagree, but the point is that you are still trying to sell your gear.
Yes, you should be proud of your business and think it's the best. I have to ask, when was the last time you played with new, high end capacitors or resistors or diodes or.... When was the last time you tried a carbon fiber tweet and midrange in your speakers? When was the last time you tried..... If you have done all of these things like Vandersteen, Magico, B&W and others have done over the years to evolve, then that's great, but I doubt that you have. I do respect your ears as they are yours, but many of us disagree.
After years of hearing different speakers, I took the recommendation of a friend and test drove a pair of the Ohm Walsh Micro talls. I was so impressed by these that I upgraded to a pair of the 1000's which I am absolutely thrilled with. If I have the chance, I will upgrade to a pair of their 5000's. Great soundstage, amazing presence and totally enjoyable to listen to for hours on end. I will be keeping these speakers forever unless I hear something I think is better.
I put a nice retro rig right next to my main up to date system. I guess I was on a nostalgia kick thinking back to my earlier days of the hobby. After about a year and a half I became very aware of all the short comings that system possessed. It truly validated all the upgrading I had done all these years and have no regrets.
Pretty simple. The world is on a retro. kick as things happening worldwide now are such a downer. I would suggest we should all be careful letting that pervade the pursuit of audio excellence. If you crave that retro. sound, then have at it and enjoy. I prefer the here and now and the advantages that advanced research and development have gifted to the audiophile's pursuit of the sound of live music in our listening rooms.
I'm glad to read some are listening to older speaker designs. Audiophiles would serve their ears well by going back as much as going forward. Personally I'm not nearly as fond of some of the newer designs vs designs that are listener based. Speaking for myself, I much prefer starting with drivers that are basic in design. This means (most of the time) the vibratory value is wide as compared to starting with something that is stuck in a fixed signature that needs to be corrected elsewhere.
Give a look to how the driver industry is making their way back to some of the old school basket designs for example. There for a period of time drivers were pretty poor, and very expensive, frankly they were way over built and only sounded good in a few limited situations. People should keep in mind that a complicated crossover means that the drivers are having problems that need to be addressed.
I have a simple formula that makes the hobby easy for me. Tune the recorded code to the audio code, along the audio chain, all the way to the room and ears. Two things you will notice. One every listener will have a different setting to their system compared to anyone else. And second, when a recording does not sound right to you, you can variably tune it in to your liking.
JBL S3100 in my room for almost 20 yrs now.. can't imagine better for me and I will keep them till I need smaller for some reason - 68 yrs old now. I have used this JBL with 3 watts, 9 watts, 30 and now 180 watts! Perreault PMF 1850. They all sounded good but the 180 watts takes the prize. Never would have guessed it!
James. That's perfectly fine. Just surprised you didn't mention it on that thread. I think other people would have considering how strongly many Tekton owners claim their sound to be superior to so many other high ticket brands.
@ mr_m Why would I discuss my forever speaker on a Tekton thread? no one has asked. I don’t plan to keep the Mini Ulfs for more than a couple of years (or any speaker for that matter) although I could end up keeping them around as a secondary. This doesn’t diminish the amazing product Tekton is manufacturing right now. I just have no plans to settle down with speaker swaps until I am much older. Larger ATC’s have been my end game plan for years. They are the most....honest? sounding speakers I’ve heard.
It took me 20 years to eventually get their top of the line 150 but I enjoyed ATC sound all along from SCM 20 to 100 and ultimately 150. Journey is not necessarily over but someone someday hopefully will eventually make a better speaker... kind of scary that 25 year old technology (with some tweaks) still outperforms everything else, as far as my ears are concerned.
Change the speakers right now. As fast as you can Spend as much as you can on next pair. JBL a great speaker but it's 2017. Don't take this message the wrong way Also upgrade that DAC
Well folks, the one thing we can be sure of is that we all perceive sound differently and thus the wide range of tastes expressed in this thread. Hey, this is why there are so many manufacturers in audio. Although my current speakers (Vandersteen Treo CT with two 2wq subs.) is the sound for me they certainly would not sound optimum to many of you regardless of whether they employ new or old tech.
One absolute in my experience...I ALWAYS learn something about my own set-up after listening to someone else's system. The experience may simply confirm what I thought of my rig or provoke me to investigate what I might do to hear a specific sonic aspect that I just heard elsewhere.
After all, it's not just about the gear it's about how we set it up and tweak it to sound the most musical to us.
I'd like to hear the ATC's actively. After hearing what Vandersteen does with a semi active, I would like to hear a fully active one. I don't like Meridian at all. I heard one from Germany that uses ribbons, that didn't do it for me a few years ago. It was fairly expensive (or unfairly to me, lol), but not my cup of tea. I'd kill for a pair of the Vandy 7's with his high passed amp as that's an active system (especially with the new 9 subs) but the amps are in a separate box which is basically what Linn does too (I own the smaller Linn system for the bedroom and don't love it, lol).
I do think that active speakers could have a great future, but too many want to pick and chose their own components in the US so that's probably not going to happen. lol
I've heard an awful lot of speakers in my time, on account of they get sent to my shop for audition and I hear them at shows as well.
For about 20 years now one of the best I've heard has been the Classic Audio Loudspeakers model T-3.3, which is what I've been playing for most of that time (started as T-3s). They have dual 15" woofers (which cut off at 20Hz) and field-coil magnet structures. The midrange in particular is quite nice- beryllium compression diaphragm with a Kapton surround; very fast and the first breakup is at 35KHz, so very smooth as well. The speakers are also easy to drive, being 16 ohms and 98 db 1 watt/1 meter.
There really isn't anything this speaker can't do. It can handle more power than I can throw at it, can play considerably louder than I ever need it to play and no part of the frequency spectrum is left to imagination. Its also very relaxed and detailed, even at high volume, but is equally comfortable imparting all the music at very low levels too. It is so undistorted that it is a bit disarming how loud its often playing- it certainly does not **sound** loud! Its only when you realized that you have to yell to be heard by someone right next to you that you realize how loud it might be playing.
Yet for all this the speaker is insanely musical. Its not particularly euphonic; instead I find it to be quite neutral, just like real music. It'll be quite a challenger to get them out of my living room- so far nothing is even on the horizon, which is not to say I've not heard other speakers that I could not live with for the rest of my life- I've heard a number of them. This one is simply the best of the crop.
I grew up with the Bozak sound as I live in CT. I remember meeting him as a kid in one of the local stores. The owners was close with him, but didn't sell his speakers. I used to get to hear them all the time though as he was always bringing them in. They'd call me to come listen after school (was on my way home). What folks don't remember is that he designed and built the speakers for the NY Worlds Fair in the early 60's. Pretty cool story.
Don't forget the cabinet construction in your discussion. It is not just drivers that end up in the sound. I owned the Edgarhorn Titan horn system with Seismic Subwoofer for 13 years and it had very vintage drivers which I considered sublime to listen to with SET amplification. Those included the JBL 2441 in the midrange and Bruce's 300hz horn made of solid wood made it sing. The mid bass folded cabinet in mine and the seismic sub. also had JBL/Electrovoice vintage drivers but the cabinets were big and hard to properly brace. The only reason I sold the pair was due to the space in my room. These horns smoked a lot of others out there due to the driver chemistry/cabinet combination. My friends Avantgarde Trios with Bass Horns are hifi in comparison. Point is he likes what they do for him so he wins. I don't care to listen to them.
The Gamut speakers excel in sound not only due to quality timed drivers and crossovers but due to the 21 layers of "specific" Baltic wood used to make the cabinets in their top models. The layers are hand glued together. Why not 22 layers or 19? Because 21 sounded the best to the designer.
A lot goes into the cabinet for the final result is my point. Drivers are only a part of the overall sound.
Old guy, moving from Wilson WP7's to Alexia Series 2. McIntosh system, tube power amp. Focal Utopia headphone rig. Grew up in house with one-off speakers built by Rudy Bozak, a friend of my father. Loved the BW speakers I have owned in the past.
Oh, I forgot to ad, that when folks say paper cones are best, I have to go back to pure science and say that they all sound differently when humidity levels change.
That changes the sound greatly if you have good enough upstream gear to show them off. I won't even get into how many horn lovers I know, realize that they often butcher voices and some instruments. I'm ready for the fall out of my last statement, lol. Horns can be very exciting and fun to listen to, but to my ears, I would get fatigued and disinterested over the long haul, but again, that's just me.
analogluvr326 posts08-05-2017 8:24amCtsooner i'm glad you love your vandersteens but I had to chime in and correct your statements. All these so-called advances in materials are mostly bunk. A good old paper driver is still king for musicality. You can assemble a system with eighty-year-old technology that will sound better than everything at the shows. Now I'm not disputing the fact that material advances have made better capacitors and resistors but as far as in speaker technology I'm not buying. My system consists of a pair of Oris horns with Fostex drivers and separate tweeters. I have a pair of TAD 15 inch woofers that are separately by amped. The horns and tweeters are run by a western electric 300 B clone and the woofers are run by a sumo Polaris solid-state amp. I am very familiar with Vander Steen sound having on the pair for numerous years and I have heard your speakers numerous times as well. I'm sure your system sounds very very good and it will probably do a few things better than mine but likewise my system will do a few things better than yours. If all of these advances were so great your modern system should completely obliterate mine with it's 80-year-old technology. Rest assured that would not be happening. I feel the need to try and correct these types of statements because I feel that they are driven by marketing simply to cause people to spend endless amounts of money and never exit the merry-go-round.
There have been so many versions of the Quatro that its hard to know which one you heard. You are happy with what you have, so often times folks aren't out auditioning or when they do, it's not seriously done. Materials have changed speakers a lot. To my ears, it's easy to notice the nuance in music. Most people who love the arts and music are not analytical. This often explains the wide diversity in especially expensive speakers.
To my ears, as well as many others who have heard all my systems, they hear a very large positive difference between the Quatro's, the Treos, formerly the Proac Supertowers (my original) as well as when they were rebuilt with new drivers and crossovers.
No need for you to correct anything I posted as I stand fully behind my thoughts. These are things that I and other have heard in my system. Going from the ceramic coated tweeter in the Treo to the carbon fiber is a major step in dynamics, a more realistic presentation and much more detail.
The other thing is that changing just one to a few components or even all of them in a crossover, can give major improvements in a speakers sound and they are positive if implemented correctly. I feel strongly that Richard Vandersteen has done this as he auditions every single change in his speakers. He isn't hand making his carbon fiber cones just for marketing purposes I assure you.
I love hearing folks who love their older gear. I too love a few items I still own, but newer can and often is better to so many that it keeps the industry moving forward.
I will second Jond's recommendation of the DejaVu Audio custom speakers. I recently bought a pair using a YL Acoustic midrange horn and compression driver, and they sound very nice in my opinion. However, two days ago I heard two new designs at Vu's store and I was just amazed at how good they sound. So the target is always moving forward.
analogluvr, "
All these so-called advances in materials are mostly bunk. A good old paper driver is still king for musicality."
What you forgot to add is, "For me..."
I just can't understand why some people, and they are mostly analog lovers, think that they have "the best" and everyone should like what they like. It just doesn't work that way.
I bought a pair of Apogee Slant 6s years ago and I have been partial to ribbons and electrostatics ever since.
The speaker bar has moved I'm afraid, the new B & W 800 D3 is the most realistic sounding speaker I have heard to date, after auditioning for the last 18 months. They unfortunately do need a minimum of 200 hours to fully come on song, so a run in dealer demo pair to audition is a must. The rest of the manufacturers will now have to play catch up to match them.
the good news is pricing is in reasonable territory, compared to their peers, looks are an acquired taste, they however grow on you - especially the piano black finish.
Absolutely the last speaker I will purchase, and enjoying being closer to the musical event, than ever before, magnificent ....... !
I absolutely love my McIntosh XRT28's. 6'5" tall with a small footprint, creating a gorgeous wall of sound. They're definitely going to the grave with me. Or I'll be buried inside of them!
Tannoy for me. Currently have Definition DC8 and am saving for Turnberrys or Kensingtons. Been through many speakers! The Tannoys just engage me like none of the others. Music flows from them first, and then the usual hifi adjectives follow secondly. Best.......
My modified decades old B&W 801 are the ones I will always keep. My father (not an audiophile) mistakenly bought these studio monitor speakers, which sounded flat... awful -- they have built in casters, no less. Over the years I tried many different amp, pre amp combinations to no avail. Finally, I decided to give them one last chance and replaced the circuitry. North Creek's external boxes, each containing approximately 30 lbs of copper wiring, made for the perfect speaker, at least in my price range. In addition to the B&Ws, I've owned Polk, KEF, ML, Cambridge Audio, Cerwin Vega, JBL and others.
As I've said before: never trust any audiophile who says he has found his "journey-ending speaker" until he's on his death bed.
Most of us feel that way when we are enamoured with some new purchase but then after a while, whadyya know, something new comes along (even if it's the new version 1.2 of the same gear) or that itch just makes itself known again. ove lost count of the number of audiophile friends and acquaintances who said if some component "this is it!" only to see them rave later on about the gear that replaces it.
Speakers are the most personal of all the other equipment. Room needs to match the size of the speakers so the 4350s would never work. House is paid for and ain't going anywhere. I have a friend In town with a great set of 4350a the are nice if you has the room.
I could care less about technology or lack thereof, what sounds good sounds good. I've had my current speakers, original JMlabs MicroUtopias for 10 years now. Very good speakers well suited to my room. Recently pulled the trigger on a pair of Audio Note AN/Jlx's which I hope will be my last speakers. At the advice of Vu from Deja Vu getting the original drivers not the new blue hemp drivers which Vu says makes the speakers sound a bit too dry. Very excited!
Hi Ricpan, nice choice to END with . I'm a long time JBL lover . But I must warn you , stay away from Westlake Speakers . Some years past , I went to a friends house to check out his new mixer . He had purchased a used pair of Westlake BBSM-15's , then rebuilt all the drivers through Orange County Speaker . Made some heavy stands ala Sound Anchor and ran them bi-amped with a pair of Bryston 4BSST's. All I could say was WOW , followed by a song request , then a couple more . We OLD FOLK , tend to revert to our youth and add some upgrades . I have JBL and Klipsch in the Rotation . Been grooving on Zu for the past year . You either Love em or Hate em . Went back to tubes also . Now I'm trying Morrow cables . Anyway , big speakers with big power , yield big air movement ! It's like having a ZZ Top concert in your living room . Anyway sounds nice and I can relate to your taste . If you get bored , try an active crossover and tubes on top . And no matter what people say , you can never have too much power with original JBL's. Happy Listening , Mike.
Raidhos have done it for me. Though now I would like to move up within their line :). Luckily, all the models share the same sound, just the scale gets larger and the soundstage gets bigger. While the d series fleshes out more details, I don't think the c series is a slouch.
I have worked hard through the years and listened/owned some great speakers. Those included Vandersteen 3a, Magnepan MGllla, Magn apan Tympani IVa, Dunlavy SCV, ESP Concert Grand, Avantgarde Duo 3.2, Edgarhorn Titan II, Living Voice OBX-RW. Some I am forgetting no doubt but this covers most. I know a lot of these are old designs but the point is they were dynamic, panel, horn, high efficiency etc. I missed out on electrostats.
No speaker can do it all for everyone as each excelled in given areas. A lot also has to do with your soul mating and what you consider "class" amplification.
As I approached retirement I wanted a smaller foot print speaker that was full-range, could be driven easily with tubes, and drew me into the music and did everything that music stands for.
For me those speakers are the Gamut RS7i which I now own and love dearly.
Speakers are a personal thing as is all the rest in this hobby so enjoy the journey if your wealth allows you to do so.
I too believe I have finally purchased my last set of speakers. I recently bought a pair of Ohm FRS 11's and did the rebuild of the cans to the 3000 series. Hooked up to my Nad 375 int amp and SVS sub which I really don't need, they sound incredible. Warm, rich, depth. Nice crisp highs. A very wide spatial sweet spot. And they will outlive me. Having owned some very good PSB Imagine T's and Energy RC70's, and I still have my original Infinity reference studio monitors and a pair of JBL L26's. The Ohms have really impressed my ears listening to bluegrass, to classical, to jazz, to pop, to alt and heavy metal. Just my honest opinion.
I bought B&W 804s in the 80s. Never thought I would find anything I would like better at a reasonable cost. But, basically to prove how good they really were, I purchased a set of Tekton Double Impact speakers as a "trial". Thinking the Tekton build-up was all hype and to really test the quality of the 804s with a newer speaker. Didn't work out that way. The Tektons displaced my much loved 804s. So I figured the DIs were going to be my bucket list speaker. Well, until Tekton announced a Special Editiion verson of the DIs and agreed to let me trade the standard ones in for them. Waiting on those now. Sometimes constants change...
Ctsooner i'm glad you love your vandersteens but I had to chime in and correct your statements. All these so-called advances in materials are mostly bunk. A good old paper driver is still king for musicality. You can assemble a system with eighty-year-old technology that will sound better than everything at the shows. Now I'm not disputing the fact that material advances have made better capacitors and resistors but as far as in speaker technology I'm not buying. My system consists of a pair of Oris horns with Fostex drivers and separate tweeters. I have a pair of TAD 15 inch woofers that are separately by amped. The horns and tweeters are run by a western electric 300 B clone and the woofers are run by a sumo Polaris solid-state amp. I am very familiar with Vander Steen sound having on the pair for numerous years and I have heard your speakers numerous times as well. I'm sure your system sounds very very good and it will probably do a few things better than mine but likewise my system will do a few things better than yours. If all of these advances were so great your modern system should completely obliterate mine with it's 80-year-old technology. Rest assured that would not be happening. I feel the need to try and correct these types of statements because I feel that they are driven by marketing simply to cause people to spend endless amounts of money and never exit the merry-go-round.
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