Is it possible for a high end manufacturer to overprice their goods?

?! Is the Pope catholic? Most current hi fi equipment is overpriced!

@asvjerry 

Anyone who could remember the 'sound, the qualities' of even most of the various speakers and/or the equipment would be considered to be a savant of sorts....

 

I guess not, but at the least you should be aware of the strengths of various loudspeakers etc.

In that particular example Howard Popeck was familiar with both the Harbeths and the JBLs. I probably wouldn't pick the JBL L100 if I listened to mainly classical, they're good but there's probably better out there.

However for rock they're amongst the best speakers I've ever heard. It's hard to describe just why but they do have amazing transients and dynamics plus clean mids. They also have good bass but it's not the kind that's artificially boosted and then suddenly falls off a cliff.

Every dealer and reviewer should be familiar with a speaker like that just in case a listener strongly favours one particular genre over others.

As for modern equivalents, I've never heard any of the Zu speakers but I'd expect them to be also extremely good with rock. Maybe PMC too as both Sean Casey and Peter Thomas look as if they might enjoy some hard rock now and then.

 

@kokakolia 

That stuff is either overpriced, overhyped, over-engineered with exotic hard-to-find parts, or all of the above. Everyone is trying to re-invent the wheel in the high-end market. Because the wheel is too basic, convenient and affordable. You're swimming with the sharks in a high-end market. The sharks are the salesmen. Furthermore, high-end equipment can be experimental and unreliable at times. 

Good argument, one that applies across the board.

I remember seeing one of the earliest large screen LCD TVs at a show in London when they were first coming out.

This one had a mediocre picture at best and cost £29,000!

We were told that Buckingham Palace had ordered one.

Who'd have thought the Queen would be at the cutting edge when it came to TVs?

Or perhaps it was the Queen mum, she was said to have enjoyed her horse racing on TV.

There's almost always a risk attached to cutting edge technology as well as a hefty premium to pay.

 

@daveyf Yes, I went off tangent. You are right.

I’ll conclude that the very high end is bogus. The prices are astronomical to inflate the perceived value. You can cite extreme examples with 1 million dollar speakers. Maybe you should define high end in terms of performance. I believe that you can achieve that for tens of thousands of dollars if you’re smart. The very best Yamaha system is « only » $50k. You get all of the electronics (amp, preamp, cd player, turntable, full range speakers). Perhaps I am moving goal posts. I trust Yamaha more than a small boutique manufacturer selling $300k speakers and might go out of business soon. 
 

So yeah, a step below the very high end could be the sweet spot. Going entry level was never your intention. 

@kokakolia While my thread was asking about the very top end pricing in audio, I am interested in your points about the area below high end...commonly called mid-fi, or even mass produced low end gear. I think today, unlike in years past, there are some quite good low priced components that do give one a ’taste’ of what high end can accomplish, ( which is what i think you are pointing out). However, while this is encouraging for folk who cannot budget for what is now becoming very serious $$ for a lot of this gear, the reality of the situation is...and I hate to say this, that one typically does get what one pays for in this hobby in SQ ( in most instances). IF..again IF, you have a chance to listen to what some of this gear can sound like, particularly when set up properly in a proper dedicated acoustic space, I feel certain that you will hear what it is that the top high end companies provide from a SQ perspective. Now my question of whether the $$ asked can be raised to such a point that even the most well-heeled audiophile says...sorry, too expensive and I pass regardless of the ability, still applies.

@skinzy You can buy the Polk « R » series (Polk R200) on the Walmart website. But it’s from a third party vendor. That speaker is seriously good. And I know you’re joking but I’m pretty serious. 
 

In hindsight I am going against the Audiogon lifestyle of taking the HiFi hobby to the next level. Whatever that means. But it certainly doesn’t imply buying reasonably priced and unexpectedly good mass-produced entry level speakers. I suppose that you guys value exotic components, craftsmanship and brand heritage more than others. 
 

I suppose that I am providing a baseline for all speaker evaluations. If a high end setup doesn’t outshine a humble Polk R200 powered by a humble Denon amp then it may as well be overpriced junk and you should feel bad about yourself LOL. 
 

This leads to another thought: high end stuff seems to be reviewed in isolation and compared to other high end stuff. It is implied that the high end is far superior than the entry-level. But once in a blue moon you can become annoyed by the unexpected performance of modern entry-level gear if you own high end stuff. It’s all relative of course. And craftsmanship plays a huge part in the price, less so in the performance. 
 

Last point: I envy the people who just spend less than two thousand on a Hi-Fi setup and are completely happy. Just look at the people on the internet who spend tens of thousands on Hi-Fi and are never happy. The simplicity of spending $1.5k on a full system at Walmart is alluring. 

@kokakolia You convinced me.  I'll start shopping at Walmart for the best of everything.

@cd318 The honesty debacle is hard to tackle, especially in the high-end market. It is kind of implied that you're over-spending on High-End equipment. That stuff is either overpriced, overhyped, over-engineered with exotic hard-to-find parts, or all of the above. Everyone is trying to re-invent the wheel in the high-end market. Because the wheel is too basic, convenient and affordable. You're swimming with the sharks in a high-end market. The sharks are the salesmen. Furthermore, high-end equipment can be experimental and unreliable at times. 

In comparison, the entry-level or midrange feels like a safe ball pit with foam edges. In this environment manufacturers use off-the-shelf parts with tried-and-true methods. There is some trickle-down stuff from the high end. Most of the experimental kinks are addressed. 

My position is: avoid the high end at all costs.

This applies to everything: cars, furniture, homes, clothing, watches etc...

While the news about ARC going into receivership is not really a speaker forum subject, it does possibly connect to this thread.

About a year or so ago, I was at an ARC dealers premier of their new Reference 80s amp. While I was there, the ARC rep was discussing with the attendees some of ARC’s future product line up. It was to include a new flagship model with, if I remember, about 64+ KT150 tubes and slated to be a replacement to the Ref 750SE model. I asked the rep two questions, one was how much heat this beast would give off, and two…how expensive? The rep told me that he didn’t know about the heat, which I thought could be a considerable problem in a hot climate, and that the price was not yet set, but definitely more expensive than the Ref 750 SE! Many attendees said nothing, but the look on their faces said it all.. and it was obvious to all that this new flagship would be a VERY hard sell.

It sometimes pays to have a dealer that has a wide range of tastes and experience in music.

Perhaps every good dealer or reviewer should have that?

 

Great idea, @cd318 .... on a practical level?

Rare.  Anyone who could remember the 'sound, the qualities' of even most of the various speakers and/or the equipment would be considered to be a savant of sorts....

May not be a good salesman for what you came looking for....just saying... ;)

"Freds' great.....but diapers?  On a 35 yr. old....well, whatever....Fred claims to be....today....🙄🤨 "

( Likely to be there all night with Fred as the contrasts/+/-/=/>/</etc. unreels...*L*)

@daveyf

@cd318 Quite a difference between Harbeth’s and JBL L100’s!! Presumably your sister was primarily into rock, which might explain the preference for JBL’s.

 

Your presumption is correct.

If I remember correctly from what she told me, Howard demonstrated both the SLH5s and the C7ES3s which she thought were better but neither were to her taste.

Apparently Howard had been into rock himself and was familiar with what the JBLs could do.

It sometimes pays to have a dealer that has a wide range of tastes and experience in music.

Perhaps every good dealer or reviewer should have that?

@cd318  Quite a difference between Harbeth's and JBL L100's!! Presumably your sister was primarily into rock, which might explain the preference for JBL's.

 

@jl35  You ask a good question, how much do consumers in the very high price range for some of this audio gear concern themselves about re-sale value? I suspect little, because most of this gear drops heavily in value once used. There are numerous examples of high $$ speakers that are not easy to sell at 70% of new- once hitting the used market, regardless of age! 

OTOH, while this is an interesting point, i am not sure at what price point this relates to my OP, because there are also examples of far less expensive gear that also fails to hold value, and naturally, there are a few examples of gear that has actually risen in value ( although a much much smaller category).Albeit, I can't think of a ultra pricey speaker system that has risen in value.

 

@thyname 

1) Lot of noise in the internet. You are right. Coming from "innocent" people with a secret agenda, whether from the manufacturers' side, or themselves profit motif. The key is to get to know the people online or personally that you learn to trust, both integrity wise, and from the perspective of matching their taste with your own. This takes years (if not decades) and constant exposure to what goes on in the hobby, user forums and publications / reviewers.

 

You're right, when it comes to opinions in audio, it can take years to find people who you can trust.

The same thing applies to cars, electrics, plumbing, health etc.

I still have fond memories of Derek Whittington who ran Sound Advice from Loughborough. I bought my first system from him and I'll always be grateful for his honesty and patience.

He was big on Linn and Naim, like so many were back then, but neither Derek nor anyone in his shop ever pushed anything on me.

I remember one difficult listening session where I couldn't find a single well reviewed loudspeaker I liked more than what I had already until someone there suggested listening to the Rega Kytes.

That was a classic case of using your own ears to make a purchasing decision. 

As you say, trying a product at home would be best but listening at a dealers is still far better than taking a gamble on what you've read or heard.

Howard Popeck is another name that comes to mind. Years ago my sister fancied some new speakers and auditioned some Harbeths at home.  She was unimpressed until Howard suggested listening to some vintage JBL L100s which she still loves to this day.

certainly Rockport has been highly successful selling very high priced speakers for decades, while others not successful... I think their speakers sound incredibly good, though have never had the chance to compare them to similarly priced speakers...not sure how much buyers in that price range care about resale value...

@curtdr  The question is not whether a marketing plan exists that banks on 'over pricing' gear to sell at the high end, but rather if it is possible that such a plan might ultimately cause buyer ' exhaustion'? Resulting in a major reduction in sales to a final conclusion of zero sales? This would seem to me to be highly probable, since the upward spiral in pricing is getting more aggressive. But, perhaps we have just seen the tip of the iceberg here, who knows? 

@tomrk +1  "A lot of fun actually, but what struck me is that with few exceptions that price had nothing to do with the quality of the sound coming from the speakers."

what you say has been my experience over 40 years of this audio hobby

not only is it "possible" for "high end" manufacturers to overprice, it’s NORMAL...

and hey, if it works to sell stuff, well, so be it: what the market will bear, right?

some people are attracted to stuff ... "luxury" stuff ... exactly because it's priced high -- such folks are into exclusivity of money, moreso than performance.

Interestingly, most self-made American millionaires are not duped by such marketing ploys and do not care about luxury bling, which explains why they're self-made millionaires.  

 

Funny you should mention that. A lot of good components are getting way over the top expensive. I certainly do not think more expensive = always better.

@thyname,

I do have a lot more skills than you and you’ve just realized that while you really can do just absolutely nothing with your unsupported arguments. What else should I do or say??

Everything else is pretty much OK here (and counting).

 

I guess if you go to Barnes and Noble and pick up basics of electronics and electro-magnetics, you will know instead of arguing

As naive as you think I am, I have realized that you have mastered the art of being very offensive to people, without being kicked out of the forums. And that’s skill you have. Thus your 5000+ posts in here (and counting).

Please don't take this the wrong way, and I mean absolutely no offense, a good person will never say jerky (only in a snarky cowardly way) things you post here.

 

@czarivey :

In case of cartels they take raw supply and bring it to the powder initially with cost of around $100 per kilo and when it gets to consumer it's $100 per gram (hypothetically)

Thank you for explaining the economics of a drug cartel. I personally have no experience with a drug cartel, so I rely on other people with experience in such matters to learn. See.... education!

In case of for example Nordost Odin speaker cable, it starts from somwhere $1 per few meters...

Source? Or you work for Nordost too?

 

@cd318 :

Your concerns are very valid and well founded. Good observations too. My humble advice on how to (try to) remedy the very valid issue you raised:

1) Lot of noise in the internet. You are right. Coming from "innocent" people with a secret agenda, whether from the manufacturers' side, or themselves profit motif. The key is to get to know the people online or personally that you learn to trust, both integrity wise, and from the perspective of matching their taste with your own. This takes years (if not decades) and constant exposure to what goes on in the hobby, user forums and publications / reviewers.

 

2) As many personal contact as possible with people. This includes dealers (I fortunately live in a place with several dealers, brick and mortar), friends you can visit in person, preferably who have a vast experience, great systems, and money, and finally, visiting audio shows any chance you can.

 

3) Most importantly, before purchase, be able to try for yourself, in your home / system. I realize that one would have to start somewhere (i.e. #1 and #2 above), as we cannot possibly try everything out there for ourselves in our homes.

 

 

in an ideal world, 2 speakers from different brands with similar sound, characteristics, measurements, materials (~+-10%) would be priced similarly. But they aren't. 

If you don't burn 100 dollars bills after you sniffed coke with it, do your research. There is an amazing selection out there, be a numbers guy for a day.

What we really need is more honesty and this sometimes comes in short supply, at least it has done in my fairly long experience.

That cannot happen if honesty cannot be checked. You go to the HIGHLY RATED automotive shop and get RIPPED simply for the reason you know nothing about vehicles. Same thing happens with same kind of "honesty" in audio industry. Many of you, as noted MANY times don’t know about that and try to argue.

How do you check honesty? You will need education. Education is set of useful information that had been established by the GROUP of people within the time that is given to a student or anyone desiring to acquire such information.

Education on basic physics, electronics and electro-magnetics can literally OPEN EYES of those surfing here and asking questions why indeed Audio Industry profits are nearly as good or BETTER as drug cartel.

@thyname

Now I’ll explain the reason why the profits are nearly same:

In case of cartels they take raw supply and bring it to the powder initially with cost of around $100 per kilo and when it gets to consumer it's $100 per gram (hypothetically)

In case of for example Nordost Odin speaker cable, it starts from somwhere $1 per few meters...

@thyname

I enjoyed reading your latest post.

You clearly outlined the way things things are for the prospective customer and I can find nothing to disagree with there.

I think we all would agree that, as you said in your first point:

1) The audio manufacturers are for-profit organizations. Not charities. They will enter a business relationship according to their perception / strategy on how to make a profit, and how to maximize their profit. Basic business decision & marketing strategy.

 

Fair enough.

 

However as @mitch2 points out, there’s more to it than that.

A lot more.

Specifically, as he says "but also create such a buzz that the audiophile community carries the torch to the point where promotion of the product in audio forums and by word-of-mouth seems to take on a life of its own."

It’s this "flavour of the month" / constant overhyping of 'certain products' that tends to cause a real stink and even occasionally bring the entire industry into disrepute.

Magazines, YouTube channels and forums apparently exist in order for reviewers and enthusiasts to share experiences and knowledge with each other.

This is important, particularly in those cases where we can’t easily get to hear potentially interesting products. Therefore we are forced to rely upon the opinions of others.

However, as we see all too often, these channels of communication can all too easily end up being blatantly misused as vehicles for promotion and advertising hype.

Pushing product.

 

What we really need is more honesty and this sometimes comes in short supply, at least it has done in my fairly long experience.

Let’s say for example, if the Revel Salon 2s really are the world’s best loudspeakers, then wouldn’t it be better if all other contenders for the throne be directly compared to them?

[Ditto Harbeth M40s, Wilson Alexandria’s, KEF Blades, Martin Logan’s Magico’s etc]

Direct comparisons, I believe, can tell you an awful lot more than any purely isolated review. You could read /watch 1000s of isolated reviews and learn nothing.

However if a reviewer is telling you why they think that a KEF LS50 is better than a Harbeth P3ESR, you’ll have more to go on.

You might also find it easier to sniff out what might be little more than marketing/ PR hype.

@kokakolia 

Success in the audio bizz seems to come from marketing, marketing, marketing... Just produce something decent and hype it to the max.

The marketing gold standard seems to be those companies that not only effectively market a product themselves, but also create such a buzz that the audiophile community carries the torch to the point where promotion of the product in audio forums and by word-of-mouth seems to take on a life of its own.  Orange fuse anyone?

Regarding furniture;

Or you can custom order a table, spend thousands and wait months.

The Fleetwood Rack System appears to be an awesome equipment rack that would look great in my room but, as cool as it is, I just can't convince myself to pay $$$$$ for something that probably doesn't function any better than my Sound Anchor stand.

It looks like many people here (and other forums) get triggered badly and outraged by the existence of high priced audio equipment. Here is my humble opinion and potential advice:

1) The audio manufacturers are for-profit organizations. Not charities. They will enter a business relationship according to their perception / strategy on how to make a profit, and how to maximize their profit. Basic business decision & marketing strategy.

2) As I have said before, plenty of manufacturers exist in all price points, from very low & affordable, to astronomically high. It is very easy to select the one that fits your budget & income. In the day of internet, finding your "match" is pretty simple.

3) There is a used market available. Here and in other places, including Craigslist locally and thrift stores. That’s an option too, that further keeps costs in check

4) This is a hobby, discretionary spending. It is a "want" not a "need". Music can be heard in extremely cheap devices (i.e. Amazon Alexa, earbuds, etc.), or in the car. There is no need to buy any audio equipment for listening to music. Whatever you decide to buy, take care of necessities first before you buy any audio equipment at any price (i.e. pay the gas bill first).

czarivey

5,125 posts

04-28-2023 at 09:03am

@thyname If an education has zero meaning to you, then You’re just another proof of what I’ve mentioned earlier

What an odd dude. Strange creatures dwelling in the audio forums for some reasons. I wish you a less cruel life going forward. Good luck

 

@thyname If an education has zero meaning to you, then You're just another proof of what I've mentioned earlier

@czarivey : not sure what you just said has the slightest connection to anything I posted in my reply to you. Whatever "plan" you have drawn has absolutely zero meaning to me. 

@kokakolia  I've had more problems with reliability from the mass market manufacturers then with the small boutique manufacturers. 

@yesiam_a_pirate You're missing something huge in your argument. Large manufacturers can scale production and outsource it to China in order to save a lot of money on production costs.

Smaller boutique manufacturers can't do that, unless they dropship or buy off-the-shelf modules and do minimal assembly. 

Success in the audio bizz seems to come from marketing, marketing, marketing... The quality of the goods and price seems almost secondary. Just produce something decent and hype it to the max. I'm astounded by the coverage around Schiit and now Gishelli Labs. Everything they release gets hyped up to infinity, as if they're "disrupting the market". They're not.  And these brands are relatively new. 

"Is is possible?" Sure it is! However, in a free and fair market the market will set the prices- not the seller. 

Said another way a thing is worth what someone will pay for it. 

There are some who seek the greater fool. Every now and then some bozo wins the lottery, gets an NFL contract, gets a lawsuit settlement, etc. Trying to sell to these types is a recipe for failure. There aren't enough fools with money to sustain a business over time who's building and selling overpriced items.

Interestingly if you sell to the classes you tend to eat with the masses but if you sell to the masses you eat with the classes.  

@thyname That's an interesting direction. Only because these forums exist (mostly) to validate your purchases. Heaven forbid you overspend on a piece of equipment. 

From experience (outside of Hi-Fi): high-end = extra hassle and extra costs. The quality of the service and goods seldom meets expectations. 

For example:

- You can buy a sturdy laminate table in a flatpack box and get it shipped in 2 days for a few hundred dollars. Or you can custom order a table, spend thousands and wait months. You may be unlucky and notice that one of the legs isn't fitted properly. Because everything is hand-made and not factory-made with precision machinery. This applies to everything custom made: kitchens, sofas etc... There's a reason IKEA dominates the furniture world: consistency, convenience and price. You get none of that with custom high-end furniture. 

My point: entry-level Hi-Fi from established brands (Yamaha, Polk, Denon, Klipsch etc...) is consistent AF, affordable AF, easy to purchase (no dealers! Yay!) and the customer service puts a lot of high-end manufacturers with shady dealers to shame. You know that Yamaha will still be selling amps for decades to come, it's not certain with smaller boutique manufacturers. 

Mass-produced equipment is the way to go IMHO. I'll happily sacrifice "performance and prestige" for better reliability, service and prices. 

 

" You cannot possibly be the CPA for both a drug cartel and a speaker manufacturer"

many CPAs don't know they work for the mob. I know this from Hollywood movies :)

@prof   again, +1

I haven't noticed any posts that look like someone is on a crusade (might have missed it).

But it makes sense for audiophiles to discuss the nature of how audio gear is being priced these days.  I mean...that's obvious, right?

 

 

 

 

Why spend all this energy speculating and judging what others should be thinking or doing like some sort of social crusade?

Those manufacturers are likely making exactly the choices they want to make.  Anyone who doesn’t agree is free to spend their money elsewhere.  Pretty simple.

@prof   +1

Question is...do these guys even sell just a few a year?? Perhaps just selling one of the piece is enough???

What I find interesting is how dealers and equipment manufactures tend to complain how difficult of a business high end audio is. Tough to stay a float. Yet at the same time there are hundreds of manufacturers entering the market and constantly introducing new products. With dealer and manufacturers margins at 40-50% it’s hard to find truth or empathy.

Answer:  Of course.

I've often wondered how satisfying it actually would be for those manufacturers engaging in this race-to-the-moon-who-can-price-higher model.

Where you sell just a few a year.  Is that really satisfying?

Do you really want to spend all that time engineering great sound, only so that it can be experienced by a few rich guys?  And not only that: often enough Rich guys who may be buying "to have the expensive thing" vs those who have to strive for what they buy, and truly appreciate your work?

I'm sure it works as a business model.  Everyone is doing it now.  But in terms of personal satisfaction?   I'd want my work to be enjoyed by as many as possible

czarivey

5,121 posts

04-27-2023 at 12:48pm 

that’s the industry where the largest profits made, what are you talking about?? Drug cartels can only dream about such levels of profit!!!

Any objective proof to back this statement? How do you know? You cannot possibly be the CPA for both a drug cartel and a speaker manufacturer. By I may be wrong, who knows.....

 

@czarivey :

One of the ways to alleviate that is stop posting foolish posts here about bag of rocks making differences or praises on $20k internet wire as Audiogon is being somewhat an "execution ground"

Please indicate the maximum price we should post anything here about for each category.

Speakers

Amps

DACs

Preamps

Analog stuff

etc.

P.S. I was going to list "cables" above ,but I figured your upper limit price on cables would be zero, so why waste "internet space"

 

that’s the industry where the largest profits made, what are you talking about?? Drug cartels can only dream about such levels of profit!!!

the reason of largest profits is the advertisement and diminished IQ level of consumer falling onto these advertisements. Manufacturers see that and price their stuff accordingly. One of the ways to alleviate that is stop posting foolish posts here about bag of rocks making differences or praises on $20k internet wire as Audiogon is being somewhat an "execution ground"

it’s confusing too daveyf, as the Orion is $60,000 less than the top of the line Rockport Lyra...and when the Lyra was introduced, it was second to the $225.000 Rockport Arrakis...

I think all of us want something "cool" and like owning "cool audio gear". How many would buy a pair of MBLs if they could? Quite a few I would imagine. It would be fun to own a pair and invite your friends over. Plus if you have a big job you’d probably need to escape to your man cave and turn them up and just sit amazed how good it sounds. If you can afford them, why not?

That being said, every company has a personality. I work with ATC, they are very practical down to earth people who want to build super low distortion speakers because their customers (pro and home) really respond to that. They don’t invest a lot of money into image, marketing or exotic cosmetics that obviously appeal to many. The price their product on what it costs to make, plus a margin that pays the bills and enables them to compensate and keep very good employees. They aren’t trying to "beat" anyone, they just do their own thing and guarantee themselves a future though solid engineering of a small number of new products that solve more problems in pro, or extend performance in consumer.

Other companies are kit builders, using mostly OEM sources to "package" parts together to build an appealing package, usually with a focus on cosmetics and often with significant marketing budgets. If you see a lot of ads and promotions, you know where that money is coming from: product.  These kinds of companies usually have a leader with a vision, and everything is oriented on that vision (even if it's technically questionable) .  They may even be big enough to order special "built for them" OEM parts, or have some unique tech inside (DSP) that addresses an issue or two.   

Still others are some combination of both, with talented engineering and good OEM sources of parts and products they need to build "their vision". It is upon the end user to try and figure out what the company is about, what they build in house versus what they buy, and judge the value based on the price, and the value based on performance.  A good marketing program can alter this perception, promoting some performance issue or focusing on some angle or spec that looks good compared to others.  Some of us respond to that angle, and buy based on that.  If you get sold on horns, you have a limited number of companies that do that well in the horn "micro market".   

There is almost zero sense in the high end of "what other people are doing in product". One high end company probably pays no attention to competitors, as this is a task left to larger companies with staff to devote to such efforts. So if you are Gold Peak (and all the brands they own) you study the market, find a niche, engineer a product that speaks to that niche, build it, test it, market the hell out of it. if you are ATC, you try to improve your product- done.  You hope people find it!  

Each company has a unique formula to their business and pricing is rarely a strategy in and off itself, it’s usually a choice based on what it takes to make it worth building. Pricing becomes more important as a strategy as you get larger and want to appeal to large groups of people when "Steps" are important (one at $100, a better one at $200, even better one at $400, etc).  In this case you work backwards- what can I create for $400 vs $200 and make money on both so I can stay in business?

 Brad

 

The ‘Nautilus’ from B&W was indeed a statement piece, and if you ever heard it, it was definitely an eye-opener. If I remember, it also required multiple amps for each driver section, considerably driving up the price. Not sure how many were sold, but at the time, it probably had two things going against it, the price and the WAF!

Therefore,the price may not have been the only factor against it, the aesthetics could have worked to minimize sales as well.

Unfortunately, in this thread, I do think folks are maybe confusing ‘ over priced’, which one can say attributes to a number of products, with a price that is not only ‘over priced’, but also unattainable! This is more along the lines of my OP question. 
IOW, is there a price in high end that is unattainable in this current market? If so, and we would have to assume that there should be, how do most of these manufacturers know what that price is? 

 

 

I agree that the introduction of over-the-top, outrageous (and, often ugly) "statement" pieces accompanied by their various "key talking points" can find their way to more mainstream products. I recall a very weird-looking, very expensive speaker from B&W (Nautilus) that introduced their isolated reverse tear drop pod speaker enclosure technology to reduce the effects of rear wave colouration. This technology found it’s way to their most affordable, entry-level bookshelf speakers.

IMHO, being "over-priced" does not exclude the prospect of commerical success in the marketplace. There are customers out there that will adopt a product for a variety of reasons. Strong performance/value not being one of them. This seems to push back against "common sense" which would imply that an "over-priced" items would be strongly rejected in the marketplace. So, it appears that we may have to redefine or, atleast, redirect the phrase "over-priced" to encompass poor market performance?

As someone with poor taste in general and not the best hearing... Yeah totally.

My opinion is void. But it's not the 20 year olds with prisitine hearing who will buy this high end audio equipment. The prices are too darn high. The 20 yo will likely buy a good set of headphones or IEMs if they care a bit about the sound. The sound quality you can get from $100 IEMs is astounding. You're pretty much overpaying for everything else.

Back to speakers, yeah everything was said. I may add that most people have poorly setup rooms and bookshelf speakers with almost no bass.  

I went and watched a video on the Orion. Take a look at it on the Rockport website. It might influence your thoughts about the product and it’s MSRP. Of course, I have no idea what it sounds like. But I can see that someone thinking about purchasing them might be impressed by the manufacturing technology. Each speaker ends up weighing 360 pounds! Again, I’m not able to make any judgement about the audio value of them, just saying that they are not just a few parts put into a cabinet.

Designing and building expensive equipment benefits us all - stretching to build the ‘best’ tests out new designs, materials and manufacturing processes. Some of those that are successful will trickle down to lower cost equipment. This is especially true if higher production rates are developed. And as new materials, manufacturing processes, etc. are developed for other non-audio products - such as space rockets - it’s a good thing that there are people designing and experimenting to apply those new ideas to consumer audio.