Intimate, warm and holographic alternative

8,2 m. X 5 m. = 41 square meters. 

You say your room is 41 squares, are you sure that is correct? That's 380 square meters. Your room is more than twice the size of my 3 bedroom house. Your room is a warehouse (haha). And you sit only 3 meters away from the speakers? Does the sound quality matter throughout the room or only at listening position? What is in the room?

I’ve been buying and selling used speakers so I can listen to the most recommended in my room with my gear. The problem is taking a chance on smaller brands with small marketing budgets can be harder to resell if they don’t workout. Have fun with it. 

Thanks so much to everyone for all the information and comments.

I´m not surprised that there are few coincidences in the suggested speakers (hahaha).

Yes, as many of you said, it´s absolutely necessary to hear the speakers "in person". The problem: I live in a region with no specific audio commerces and, also, many of the brands in which I´m interested have no distribution on my country. In most cases also, an offical distributor doesn´t guarantees that they are going to have in stock speakers to hear them, beacuse with specific models they only work on request.

Consequently, the comments and suggestions of the people in this forum are so important to me (experts advices from people with many speakers "on his shoulders").

Let´s talk about my room. It´s a big space of 41 square meters (if I´m not mistaken they are 441,33 square feet aprox.). The speakers are at 13 feet between each other and they are at 2 feet from the wall. The sofa is at 12 feet from the speakers aprox. This is my actual room. No specific treatment. Is a rented home so I´m not going (I can´t) make any change. In two years I´ll go to a new home. The dimensions of the new "audio space" will be similar or even bigger.

My budget: yes, they are differences on many of the speakers that I´m looking for. I don´t think that necessarily more money is going to guarantee me better sound. 30.000,00 is my probably budget but I´m not close to other options (of more or less money).

What I´m lookig for: dynamic sound, holographic experience, warm sound (I´m not closed to neutral fidelity but I don´t want fatigue and "in your face sound"), deep bass (but I don´t want independent subs) and good speakers at low level volumes (does it mean efficient speakers??).

Possibilities (or technologies) that doesn´t convince me at all (I´m not closed to anything and I´m not an expert): horns and electrostatic. Horns speakers, in many cases, are described as holographic (the sensation of been part of the concert) but the nasal sound could be a problem. Electrostatic speakers on the other hand are incredible on the holographic experience but they have two big problems: they are not the most dynamics and the bass is poor (as I said, I don´t want independent subs; yes Martin Logan have speakers with subs incorporated but the bass seems to not go at the same time of the rest of frequencies).

Let´s talk now about omnidirectional speakers. I always was impressed by MBL. When you talk about holographic sound always appears this brand (and omnidirectional technology). My doubst: the bass (another time) seems to be incapable and, also, I don´t know if it´s a must separate the spekers from the wall a lot, because the sound is a 360 degrees sound and if you have a wall very near (like in my case) it could be a problem. I don´t know.

Some options that I´m looking too. The DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O´96. I talked with John. He told me that "they are planning a new Orangutan model, but it will not replace the O/96, it will be a higher model. We will still make the O/96". Maybe could be a great option.

Tannoy seems to be an alternative but I don´t have any experience with them.

On the other hand we have Legacy Audio or Gershman.

At last Vandersteen. Another brand that always appears when you talk about holographic sound.

As you can see I´m really losted (hahah) so any suggestion would be helpful.

Thank so much

Well well.. So did you decide smth finally?

Duevel Bella Luna: high efficiency, valve friendly and omnidirectional 2 way with very clean imaging

Make sure you check out any of the Classic Audio Loudspeakers field coil variants.


After spending a few years listening to different speakers, going to audio shows in Europe and in the United States, this type of speaker, field coil drivers, and specifically, the T1.5 Reference is the one that captured my emotion the most. It is so easy to recommend speakers, but harder to actually listen to many. I traveled to many places to listen to a variety of speakers over a period of years to search for a candidate to be the one. But none of these other speakers pleased me as much the way the T1.5s field coil speaker does. Not to say that some of these other speakers were bad, because some are considered world class; however, none of the other speakers gave me the "Call of the Wild" sound and feel that I was craving, despite, their great reviews and many recommendations. It just seemed as if something was missing. This is truly an individual experience as not all will feel the same about speakers I passed over, nor, will they feel the same about Classic Audio Loudspeakers.  

Big, yes, but, compared to other speakers, the greatness that these speakers provide, you soon will turn off the lights, close the doors, and get carried away to the recording venue or stage. Oh yeah, these speakers give me great sound; and exceptional upper frequency, midrange, and bass quality. With the high efficiency and dynamic analogous, non sub powered way in which the T1.5 portrays music, you are lulled into an enchanting evening with any musician you select.

Just be forewarned, the ability of these speakers to cast voices into the room will literally make you shake your head in disbelief as I have due to the uncanny and realistic presentation. You are offered a live performance at whatever venue the recording was made. That is how I feel in my custom designed room and with my system.


This is not an easy journey you are on. Spend the time to listen with your ears and achieve the benchmarks that are your special requirements for your next speakers. Been there done that. Good luck. 👍

Did you mention what you have for a system and what you are most familiar with?

You have a good size room and say you might be moving to an even bigger room so I mention again Volti.  Standard box speakers can not sound like these. Their top speaker is basically a modernised Altec Voice Of The Theatre.

These speakers will follow you from house to house even if your listening space  doubles in size.

https://voltiaudio.com/https://www.stereophile.com/content/volti-audio-rival-loudspeakerhttps://voltiaudio.com/reviews-articles/https://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/03/volti-audio-vittora-speakers.html

Thanks so much to everyone for all the information and comments. 

I´m not surprised that there are few coincidences in the suggested speakers (hahaha).

Yes, as many of you said, it´s absolutely necessary to hear the speakers "in person". The problem: I live in a region with no specific audio commerces and, also, many of the brands in which I´m interested have no distribution on my country. In most cases also, an offical distributor doesn´t guarantees that they are going to have in stock speakers to hear them, beacuse with specific models they only work on request.

Consequently, the comments and suggestions of the people in this forum are so important to me (experts advices from people with many speakers "on his shoulders").

Let´s talk about my room. It´s a big space of 41 square meters (if I´m not mistaken they are 441,33 square feet aprox.). The speakers are at 13 feet between each other and they are at 2 feet from the wall. The sofa is at 12 feet from the speakers aprox. This is my actual room. No specific treatment. Is a rented home so I´m not going (I can´t) make any change. In two years I´ll go to a new home. The dimensions of the new "audio space" will be similar or even bigger.

My budget: yes, they are differences on many of the speakers that I´m looking for. I don´t think that necessarily more money is going to guarantee me better sound. 30.000,00 is my probably budget but I´m not close to other options (of more or less money).

What I´m lookig for: dynamic sound, holographic experience, warm sound (I´m not closed to neutral fidelity but I don´t want fatigue and "in your face sound"), deep bass (but I don´t want independent subs) and good speakers at low level volumes (does it mean efficient speakers??).

Possibilities (or technologies) that doesn´t convince me at all (I´m not closed to anything and I´m not an expert): horns and electrostatic. Horns speakers, in many cases, are described as holographic (the sensation of been part of the concert) but the nasal sound could be a problem. Electrostatic speakers on the other hand are incredible on the holographic experience but they have two big problems: they are not the most dynamics and the bass is poor (as I said, I don´t want independent subs; yes Martin Logan have speakers with subs incorporated but the bass seems to not go at the same time of the rest of frequencies). 

Let´s talk now about omnidirectional speakers. I always was impressed by MBL. When you talk about holographic sound always appears this brand (and omnidirectional technology). My doubst: the bass (another time) seems to be incapable and, also, I don´t know if it´s a must separate the spekers from the wall a lot, because the sound is a 360 degrees sound and if you have a wall very near (like in my case) it could be a problem. I don´t know.

Some options that I´m looking too. The DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O´96. I talked with John. He told me that "they are planning a new Orangutan model, but it will not replace the O/96, it will be a higher model. We will still make the O/96". Maybe could be a great option.

Tannoy seems to be an alternative but I don´t have any experience with them.

On the other hand we have Legacy Audio or Gershman. 

At last Vandersteen. Another brand that always appears when you talk about holographic sound.

As you can see I´m really losted (hahah) so any suggestion would be helpful. 

Thank so much

Go for your very first list: Gershman. It is particularly good for acoustic jazz, voice, and orchestral music. True to the real sound.The only catch is it is 87dB and you would need a very clean powerful amp to drive the speakers. Such amps can be hard to find at under 5k.
I’m driving my Gershman with Plinius SA102. 

Wilsons... as far up the line as you can afford starting in your room with Yvette.  
Consider used.  Reasonably efficient, world class sound.

Buy nothing you haven't heard.  Enjoy the selection process.

Room treatment is required to achieve your stated desire : " intimate and holographic sound with great scene"  Without treatment you could find yourself on the downward spiral of endlessly changing speakers. After finding a warm and less offensive speaker you may then decide to add some treatment and now find the chosen speaker is lacking detail and a bit dull, so back to searching for another speaker.

I have witnessed the above scenario with friends. I have visited them with my mic. and computer, measured the room, (it's easy - the computer does it) and shown them the horrible performance of their room. Occasionally they agree to experiment with dragging a couple of mattresses into the listening room and then remeasure and see and hear the difference which usually amazes all in the room. Using broad-band absorption in the correct places works a lot better than a mattress and avoids someone bored with your sound from taking a snooze on said mattress.

A few posters have suggested speakers that 'do not need subs'  I disagree. Perhaps these guys have never heard the benefit of a sub or subs properly set up. Apart from improving bass it improves the entire spectrum. Plenty of reports on how this is possible on the net.

Not sure you have the power but you are, to me, describing the Magnepan sound. Big room so 1.7i or bigger. Superb soundstage and transparency but need power. Love my 1.7is. I have a big open room so had to go the 2 sub route but if you have walls behind the speakers you'll have great bass a d likely won't need subs. Superb value too.  

Building a system is only as complicated as you make it😬....
Good clean power, a good amplifier/integrated matched to you speakers (considering impedance & efficiency and whether they have a warm, neutral or cold sound characteristics), quality cabling, a properly set up turntable/cartridge, a treated room ( no, i do not mean crazy sh#t hanging from walls and ceilings), proper speaker placement...thats it! It is not rocket science! Aaaand....no...you do not need a sub if you bought the right pair of speakers in the first place. Save the subs for the home theater please . You are destroying what the designer, engineer, builder, whatever....intended in the manufacturing of the speaker, why would you want to do that? Smh

Juan,
What is your actual budget. Your suggested speakers are all lower price relatively. It is surely important to hear speakers before you buy.
This seems problematic. It is also important to hear a complete system in your space.
Building a system is extremely complicated. Another suggestion is MBL 111 s with a Pass XA 250.8.
And maybe with an Audio Kenesis Swarm subwoofer.
But just spending a lot does not insure a sound you will like.

Check out Bache Audio. I replaced my PK rebuilt Quad 57s with a pair of the Tribeca's. The 8 inch modified wide band driver that's used as a midrange produces an engaging holographic sound with a huge soundstage. The crossover is a simple cap on the tweeter and a coil for the woofers. Drive them with tubes with an analog front end with a Kiseki Purple Heart cartridge and you'll never want to turn the system off. 

This guy describes the Tannoy Legacy Eatons as sounding holographic....I’d have to agree, as I own them.

"What the Eatons did was to pick up the lead singer, Mark E. Smith, and drag him forward into new space. Then they placed air and space around him. I felt that I could have risen from my chair and walked around him. That was how crafted the image was. Not so much 3D as hologrammatic!

https://theaudiophileman.com/eaton/

Then there is this one:
"The soundstage of the Legacy Eaton was so spatious that I could take a swim in it. The old vinyl record of Count Basie’s orchestra acquired a completely new dimension as did the Ravels’’s Nocturne from Daphnis and Chloé (Serge Brando, Czech Philharmonics). The look into the pastoral landscaper was so seducing through the Legacy Eatons that I played the track several times in a row"
http://www.audiodrom.net/en/stand-mount-monitors/detail/29-stand-mount-monitors/576-tannoy-legacy-ea...

I had great imaging with Salk Songtowers in my last listening room. By great I mean just immense in scale and depth. Breathtaking!!! I just wanted to turn around and tell someone all the time.

My new setup in my new home even with 2 dedicated ac lines is pretty good but does not measure up.

The only other difference between these setups is my new amp is a Primaluna Evo 400 power amp.

My last amp was a vintage Carver TFM-35. I had the Carver in the new home for a little while. And I can tell you the difference was not because of the amps.

It's the room. 

My starting point from an imaging standpoint, in my last home, was way worse than it was here.
It takes a good deal of trial and error and persistence to exploit any room. But you can only go as far as your room will let you.

There's no way 'this' room will ever be 'that' room. I realize that now.

This room is warmer, 'somewhat' holographic. That room was a little bigger sounding (also physically bigger)...also more clinical, cleaner and super holographic.

All with the same speakers.

For interested parties, not only the OP, I just had published my review of the gorgeous Salk Sound SS 9.5 Speakers at Dagogo.com. They are a superb speaker at the $10K price point, and check the boxes on a checklist of non-fatiguing and tonally rich with a generous soundstage (influenced by placement, as noted in the article). This pair will be going  back to Jim Salk as his personal set. I'm not 100% sure, but I believe these may show at AXPONA first.

Swallow all Pride.....

Best audio bargain out there.

PSB 300 Bookshelf.

Sit back enjoy the music.
Plays 10x their footprint.

$80.00 used.

Warm, inviting, holographic, intimate,........take Klipsch off the list.

Check the crossover freq’s , where they are crossed at for the midrange and tweeter freq’s. 
   Beware metal dome tweeters, give a listen first.
not that they are bad, but some are set at a much higher frequency through t he crossover, and they can be a bit in your face,......only some, which is why “listening AND hearing speakers” before a purchase is the most important. 
   Bought mine from only a 10 min audition at a now closed box store. 
   Audition as much as you can..bring in your own amp if possible, your own music, tape, cd, LP,  any good salesman will set up what you want to make the sale.
I know I did, worked at Barrett’s in a local shopping mall for a couple years, I was honest, believe it or not, told the people whole truths’
   We carried some garbage audio at the time, and I was not gonna recommend fischer speakers, or a low level receiver by pioneer. 
    I would quietly send them to sound and vision audio just across the street.  Who carried, carver, adcom, paradigm, Onkyo integra, pioneer elite, B&w, m&k, snell, etc etc......

    a few times, the owner(s) of sound and vision, would walk in ask for me, and a private audition, just to chat with me about me being a “double agent” as they said, thanking me for sending business their way, as they were a small operation, and appreciated the business and traffic. 

   Back on track,.....sorry for the derail!

Vandersteen are great value and great sound. They image well and are not fatiguing.  Altec was mentioned, these things can rock out but are a bit agricultural looking. Volti are a modern variation and look stunning. They have a few models.

@atmasphere  mentioned using a DBA. This system does more than just add bass. It smooths out bass performance and provides an improvement that goes beyond what one would expect. IMO a DBA will enhance any speaker even if the main speakers can go down to 20 Hz because the optimum positioning of bass drivers does not align with the optimum placement for hearing a believable sound stage.

Room treatment should also be considered if you hope to have the main speakers 'disappear'

Subwoofers: 2X Sound-barrier SBLA 2X18” with 2X NOBSOUND 100 watt subwoofer amps. 
Home-brew .9999 fine silver 16 AWG subwoofer cables. 

My new system aboard our Nordhavn 56’ MSV “Princess Cindy”, (posted here because virtual systems page seems to be busted):

Turntable:  Rega RP3, selection of half a dozen various moving coil phono cartridges. 
CD & BluRay player: OPPO. 
Preamp:  Pro-ject tube box. 
Speakers: Pair of Martin-Logan ESL-X & Motion 6I center channel speaker. 
AM/FM tuner: Sony STJX-380. 
Bridged amps, running as dual mono blocks:  INFI Audio hybrid SS and tube (tube driver and solid state output stages) 2X50 RMS WPC power amplifier.  
Home-brew signal inverter, feeding right channel power amplifier and IR remote controlled stereo volume &  width controller from schematic on Elliott Sound Products website. 
Video projector: LG HU80 KA 4K UHD CineBeam, 2500 lumens; with motorized projector screen. 
Home-brew 0.9999 fine silver 18 AWG speaker cables and 22 AWG RCA interconnects. 

If you are listening to rock and want a capable speaker you need to try a full range vintage american horn speaker made by altec lansing or electrovoice made prior to 1981.

@tweak1 
I suppose your comment explains why there are a gazillion different speaker manufacturers, models, etc and not just one or two.
I enjoyed a year or so with VSMs, now, having moved everything into a much smaller room, I’m really enjoying the little TSM BMEs. One positive comment doesn’t get neutered by a negative, or it shouldn’t. I’m sure the OP will do what’s best for him, eventually.

Maybe the Duevel Bella Luna Diamate Loudspeakers   Perfect Sound ?!

Find a speaker you love (BS, floor, stand). Give it a good run through with your favorite tracks. Then get a Rel subwoofer, spend a little time blending it in. You will get the best mid-bass and low bass. 
If you have high pass options on your main amps, this will relieve the smaller speaker, and let its mids shine.YMMV. 

@rooze
When I was in the biz, Bobby P (Merlin) and Judd Barber (Joule Electra) who was well known for his high quality, excellent sounding kit often shared a room together.  I got to know Judd quite well. At one show Judd asked me what I thought of Merlin speakers. There must have been a reason for asking. My response was they never sounded good to me

MBL’s can’t hold a candle to a "proper ESL"?. Really. I have no idea what "proper" means but I have owned the Acoustic 1 + 1, and four different ML models including the Summit over some 30 years. My last "large" speaker was the MBL 116. No contest compared to the Summit. Much more holographic and dimensional. As for Sanders, great speaker if you want the proverbial single listener / one head / sweet spot in a vice. In the end, there is no right answer to what’s best. It’s entirely subjective and based on ones personal bias and system synergy.

From the speakers you have listed I'm guessing your budget is at least 20k? Anyway my Pioneer S-1EX (TAD) has exactly the sound profile you are describing. Warm but can still rock and sounds great and loses nothing at low volume. I heard them described in one of the forums as Sonus Faber with balls. I would agree with that. 

Hear your music like never before...RBH SV-831R and SV-1212PR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY3fSqtqRUs&t

I would use those words to describe the meridian dsp 8000se system I've been enjoying the last couple years. It is possible to have the detail and resolution without sacrificing warmth. At $80k list price tho' I would say they're not for everyone. The Vienna Acoustics Beethoven are voiced so well that for the asking price they are a bargain as long as you're not into heavy metal.

+1 Yogiboy
Vandersteen!

Merlins. Set up properly with a nice amp(s).

You’re likely to tire quickly of speakers designed to be ‘warm’. Find speakers designed to be neutral and add your coloration preferences via electronics and to a lesser extent, cables.
Most bookshelf speakers will do the disappearing act and the holographic imaging. But you can’t un-color a coloration, so start with neutral and build it backwards from there.

You should try and listen to Boenicke speakers - the W5 is a tiny but holographic monitor while the W8 is a small floorstander which produces  rich 3d sound with great timing.

The speaker design is unique and the sound produced totally engaging. The speakers can rock but struggle if your aree into techno dance music!

Fatigue from the Orangutans, too in your face? What setup did you hear with these.
id put them at the top of the pile for a organic holographic presentation without any fatigue 

I also love the metaphor above:

people who like full range drivers are barking up the right tree

Rosso Fiorentino should be on a short list for these requirements.  The Elba 2 has a handful of reviews out now, including Robert Harley from TAS in the April Issue.  I would suggest looking at the Volterra as a real option and pairing it with a Norma IPA-140B.  Both product lines hail from Italy and together create a synergy that symbolizes the beauty of Italian audio.

For full disclosure, I am the distributor for both products.  

I agree that Tannoy and Klipsch Heritage (newer the better) are right in the ballpark of a real solution. If I was trying those makes out I’d lean towards valve amping them—yet I’d surely be open to trying some SS too.  Keep us posted on your decision too. Wish I was in your shoes. Great time to be an audiophile! 

bobandcindy, you and I are obviously on the same page. You have never heard a speaker disappear until you here an excellent system around ESLs. However, Martin Logans are not the best ESLs going. Because the curved diaphragm is not linear they have to cross to a standard driver at the bottom of the midrange which steals much of the ESL magic. Roger Sanders designed the curved diaphragm as a means of dealing with the poor high frequency dispersion large panels have. You can read what he thinks about it on his web site. Sound Labs has the best solution to that problem avoiding the need to crossover to another driver entirely. All the other speakers mentioned in this post from MBL to Tekton (yuk) can not hold a candle to a proper ESL. With the exception of a few horn designs there are ESLs and then there is everything else. Modern ESLs are not the fragile, amplifier eating beasts they use to be. They are more dynamic, and play louder than most speakers excepting a few horn designs. Because they can easily be configured as a full range line source the sound stage you get is a more realistic size and because the volume drop off with distance is not near as severe it is easy to set them up so that the effective listening area is as wide as the room. No dynamic speaker can do this. People who like full range drivers are barking up the right tree. ESLs are really big full range drivers. There is a unity of presentation that only a full range driver can have. The distortion levels of an ESL are at least two orders of magnitude lower than any dynamic driver. In listening to dynamic loudspeaker based systems what you here  predominantly are the characteristics of the speaker. The music sounds like the speaker. With good ESLs what you hear are the characteristics of the recording. The speaker vanishes. In my experience they are the only type of loudspeaker that does this. I have it on authority from people I trust that there are horn systems that will do this. I have little to no experience with them.  Admittedly ESLs are not going to be everybody's cup of tea. Just their size is prohibitive for many then there is the cost including the expense of a higher powered amplifier capable of sounding good into a reactive, very low impedance (at high frequencies) load. But if you have the room and the money you owe it to yourself to find a system you can audition. People who live in the northeast are welcome to contact me and set up a date. I do not sell loudspeakers or any audio equipment for that matter and have no kick back arrangement with any manufacturer.

German Physiks 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEHfXNGZfVQ

Electrostatics leave the rest in the dust; when ii comes to imaging. Quads, or Martin-Logan hybrids if you want a solid bottom end without separate subwoofers. 
Magneplanars also image well  

If it were me, I’d go with the best that M-L offers. 

Two words: Tekton. Oh, wait....one word.

Though... I guess... If I had to choose just one of these for rock... it would be the JBL S4700.

My choice of the others would be based on my preference for other types of music.  

The Aeris + Wavelet for sure.

Or, the Harbeth 40.2 / 3 / etc. as an alternative with the Hegel HA390 or HA590, or McIntosh MA352.

Though these are pretty big and expensive speakers.

One more practical alternative (both economically and physically) that will impress you with the right electronics is the Harbeth 30.1 / 2 / 3 / etc. driven by the McIntosh MA252 or MA352, or the Hegel HA390 or HA590. Simply sublime - see the YouTube videos! Though the 30.1 maybe too small for your space.

Though - If you’re a rock fan... I’d stick with the Aeris, or Klipsch LaScalla, or JBL S4700 (!!!), or yes... the ATC SCM 100+.... The Harbeths are prolly better for a jazz, classical, blues, acoustic fan - like me - which is what I have (both the 30.1 and 40.2).

Lots of respect for the Klipsch Cornwall IV & Devore Fidelity Orangutan O96 👍

Klipsch Cornwall IV with Jadis DA88S is simply stunning and enjoyable at the same time.

HFN April ‘21 has an excellent review of the DeVore O96 with Jadis separates. Less Rock&Roll than the Cornwall IV, the JPL/JA30/O96 combo would be less than the reviewed twin 300B mono amps and an easy system to enjoy for an eternity.

In recommending speakers, amplifier synergies do factor in. With the O96, the Jadis is configurable to optimize its higher impedance.

My vote goes to Tannoy Prestige series. I personally own Tannoy Canterbury’s and they are exactly what you looking for...very intimate, warm and holographic sound. Pair them with Accuphase Integrated or separates and you will find yourself in audio bliss!