Interconnects and non-believers
Is The Cable Company Still in business? Sounds interesting to try some good cables if you already have a good stereo. https://www.cnet.com/news/can-expensive-audio-cables-improve-the-sound-of-a-hi-fi/ |
"Guys, if you don’t hear a difference... just don’t spend your $$, and let everyone else make their own decisions. You don’t need to make your opinion into a crusade" That statement makes SO MUCH sense! So too, do scientific facts, such as the dielectric absorption of various materials, skin effect(and Litz), electromagnetic induction and how various constructions(ie: braiding) can avoid it, the chevron shape of drawn wire crystals and how single-crystal wire(ie: Ohno copper or silver) is a MEASURABLY better conductor, etc, AND(especially) how much aural acuity can vary, just like ALL the other senses. BUT, then we have the vociferous neigh-sayers and their ubiquitous LAST WORDS : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gROO7xSTxfY (how tedious!) |
Clearthink: “You can STFU now.” wow. What a classy guy. Have to resort to crude language now, do you? thanks for the link. I’ll read it but it’s highly unlikely to move the needle. Imho these things don’t pass cost benefit analysis. Btw, I have an engineering buddy who has 6 Grammy awards for his engineering work for Deutsche Grammophon. He built his own recording studio, speakers, etc and designed his own editing software. And he can play world class violin. The guy is a genius. His opinion: Are there differences? Yes. Are they meaningful? Don’t waste your money. Do what you want. Just don’t expect me to follow you down that marketing rabbit hole. On another note, my friend also says the Shure V15 type III was maybe the best cartridge ever made. Only $500 in its day. Good does not have to be expensive. The unique, proprietary needle design was half the magic, finding a used cartridge and re-tipping it is an impossibility. |
unreceivedogma"The guy is a genius. His opinion: Are there differences? Yes. Are they meaningful? Don’t waste your money.' It does not matter if he is a genius or if you are a genius or whatever you're claims to intellectual superiority are whether something is worth the price asked is a purely subjective determination and decision and to presume that because you are inherently superior gives you the wherewithall to decide others decision's for them is just the sort of "dogma" that would be expected from someone such as yourselfand the name you have chosen to use here. |
unreceivedogma"thanks for the link. I’ll read it but it’s highly unlikely to move the needle. Imho these things don’t pass cost benefit analysis." There is no cost to read the truthful and revealing article that I sent you it is obvious that you’re mind is already made up that’s the way it is with fervent religious fundamentalists such as yourself nothing can in any way intrude or cloud your cherished beliefs you will not allow that or even the tinyest bit of doubt creep into you’re closed mind. |
unreceivedogma Btw, I have an engineering buddy who has 6 Grammy awards for his engineering work for Deutsche Grammophon. He built his own recording studio, speakers, etc and designed his own editing software. And he can play world class violin. The guy is a genius. His opinion: Are there differences? Yes. Are they meaningful? Don’t waste your money. Deutsche Grammophon used to be a real contender. So did the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra. They were unbeatable But that was a long time ago. This is now. Things change. 🤡 Other than that, partner, thanks for the excellent example of an Appeal to Authority. |
Muddythink, A - do you know how to read? I said “do what you want” B - don’t characterize me as something I am not in order to coddle your own insecurities. I am an agnostic. I do my research and then come to a conclusion. I’ve tried several expensive cables in my system, I got MAYBE 5% improvement. The price didn’t justify it. YOU are the one who is set in your ways, but the Marxist in me in your case does not ascribe it to theology. You are so invested in your position that I’m beginning to suspect that you work for a cable company. C - as for my friend, this audience deserves to know that there is highly credible professional opinion out there that doesn’t by into the claims of cable manufacturers, which he regards as overstated. I am now done with this thread. Carry on, have a nice weekend. |
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Interesting, never knew that. Not the kind of thing the businesses advertise. All we get is the sunny side. But it is critical, for a business to succeed in the audio world, to provide a clear path to curbing ’audio nervosa’, especially when dealing with the twitchy side of it. If that is not in place, then the problems will only build as the nervosa types will quickly gather and tear generosity to pieces via abuse. "Well, I know that you're tired of living this way We've been trying to get high without having to pay" 'Brain Drain' -Marianne Faithfull |
Above post by Elizabeth re: The Cable Company is inaccurate. They charge 5% of the list price of the product as a fee (plus UPS Ground shipping) to borrow cables which is non-refundable in cash but is applied as a credit against the purchase price of a product. www.thecableco.com/lending-library If you decide to actually buy a product, they honor the manufacturer’s return policy (for instance, SR’s 30 day refund policy). Dave |
unreceivedogma"don’t characterize me as something I am not in order to coddle your own insecurities. I am an agnostic. You have charcaterized yourself and now reveal yourself to be wholly untruthful you are not an agnostic you stomped your feet and pounded your fist for scientifically valid evidence of differences between cables and when provided with an authoritative link that would also lead you to additional scientific, verifiable, repeatable data you wrote: " it’s highly unlikely to move the needle. Imho these things don’t pass cost benefit analysis." So you're mind is made up tight as a steel trap don't try and pretend you are what you obviously are not because to answer your question, yes I can read and so can everyone else here, my little friend. |
unreceivedogma, " On another note, my friend also says the Shure V15 type III was maybe the best cartridge ever made" At least he used the word "maybe", but everything he says audio related after that IMHO is suspect at best. It does however explain why he didn't hear much difference (at least not enough to pay for it) with cables. florida71, Cable threads are kind of like patchouli, they stink after a while |
Florida71, boxer12, speaking of threads, I have a friend who has been experimenting with shoelace for speaker wire. Currently in blind testing. I’ll let you know when the results are in. in all seriousness, I’ve worked as a creative director in healthcare marketing for 25 years. The FDA rigorously scrutinizes every claim, each and every one must have substantiated data. That’s why I’m particularly skeptical of any claim, never mind overblown ones. boxer12, Deutche Grammaphon doesn’t hire slackers. his 6 Grammies speak for themselves. How many Grammies do you have? that said, I had a Shure. It was great and probably still is under certain conditions. I use Koetsu and van den Hul now. |
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At this time, I would like to promote a high end, labor intensive, patented design IC from my friend at http://www.groverhuffman.com/interconnects He also has an Empress + (at $450/m) and the new Pharoah ICs (at $1,000/m). A common thread in this discussion is the problem of consistently achieving uniform sonic results from a cable from various equipment. Often, cables are touted as mere tone controls. With Mr. Huffman’s cables, there are tonal balance differences; however, the overall neutrality and high definition allow his cables to extract great sonic results from a broad range of equipment. In my own home, I use his Empress cables on my 2nd audio system and both video/audio systems which include a highly modified Dynaco ST70 and custom tube pre-amp as well as audio/video Yamaha CR620 receivers and associated cable, blu-ray, other analog front end equipment. I use his Pharaoh on my main system for the pre-amp-amp and CD player with Empress cables throughout the analog chain. At several of the past Los Angeles audio shows, we’ve had high end booths demonstrate using Mr. Huffman’s wires. With no real inventory due to their high demand and labor intensive manufacturing, despite pleas from the demonstrators, we couldn’t leave the cabling for more than an hour at any one room. Some of the rooms were using the dreadful High Fidelity and Transparent Audio cables which also sell for enormous amounts and ruined the demonstrations. Someday, Mr. Huffman would like to try his cabling against Mastersounds cabling made for Von Schweikert whose demonstrations are fantastic (as agreed upon by at least seven equipment reviewers in the past three years on-line and my wife and I). So, cabling can enhance or ruin a music system. It can be system dependent; however, good quality cabling should resolve the best qualities of the equipment. Unfortunately, there is equipment for which no cabling can help make more sonically enjoyable. I want Goner's to note that Mr. Huffman has had a problem selling to high enders due to low prices. They regularly dismiss his cabling telling him it couldn't be as good as their $10,000-$20,000/m. cabling based on cost alone. Too bad for them. It challenged him to continue improving an already proven design. He came out with his super neutral, super extended Pharaoh ICs at a higher price point to combat price competition at the high end. |
I agree with Elizabeth about purchasing inexpensive gear that sounds great. My 2nd audio system uses a Pioneer DV-05 from 1998, a dual laser DVD player available for $50 on ebay everyday; however, it is modified at the audio and power stages with six big caps and a $450 powercord. It is 98% as good as my $6000 EAR Acute. For both my video/audio systems, I cheaped out and went with Yamaha CR-620s, great sound for little money, of course using superior ICs for it. I should try SR-Blue fuses in it someday (the video systems are plugged into SR-Red Duplexes for better picture and sound). |
Prof - You (and few others here) need to get over yourself. Since when does my opinion "challenge" yours just by EXISTING? That's whack!! Listen, I feel that you have every right to your opinion/observation/belief that all cables sound alike. In fact, if that is what you HEAR, that is your truth. And nobody should try to convince you otherwise, nor bend your arm to buy some expensive wire. The other side of that is that you should respect the rights of others whose opinions differ from yours, and consider that maybe they DO hear something. Even if you are sure that they don't, why argue about it? My biggest problem with the nay-sayers is that they may discourage newbies from listening for themselves and forming their OWN opinions. And THAT is criminal! What if you're wrong and it leads others to miss something that would bring them joy? Do you see the difference?? I'm not telling anyone what to do or NOT to do... except telling them to listen and make their own decisions. You are telling them to NOT EVEN TRY, because you have already told them THE TRUTH. And if they DO hear something, they must be wrong. I'm not asking YOU to keep an open mind... just allow others too, OK?? |
aalenik, Prof - You (and few others here) need to get over yourself. Again...this is a strangely emotional form of reply. Why? What is so threatening to you, that someone might not believe exactly what you believe? I mean, I dare to give some reasonable statements for why I have decided not to spend my money on high end cables...and you feel the need to say "get over yourself?" I supposed you don’t feel the same need to tell that to the OP. I wonder why? Because if I’d made a statement anything like it, but against those who believe in cable differences, you know you’d be telling me to "get over myself." Since when does my opinion "challenge" yours just by EXISTING? That’s whack!! This suggests you’ve completely misunderstood what I wrote. I wrote exactly the opposite: that someone offering a different opinion does not (and should not) be seen as a problem, or somehow stopping someone else from doing what they want and like. We should be able to be chill about the fact someone else might not believe what we believe. Someone hears differences in cables? Shout it to the world! Enjoy. I may offer a slightly different take myself. So what? Listen, I feel that you have every right to your opinion/observation/belief that all cables sound alike. I never wrote that. It’s not what I believe, so why would I write it? What is so hard about actually reading what someone says? Did you not see the times I mentioned where I say it’s plausible cables can sound different, and also wrote explicitly: Prof: That’s not to say (as I feel I must repeat) that "cables never sound different. But the weird thing is that to people talking about cables, everything goes in and comes out as black or white. If someone simply has a more cautious view on the audibility of cables - for instance that some cables claimed to sound different *may not* sound different, but others may sound different, and all of that is only provisional and could be wrong - it goes into the ears of people and comes out "HE SAID ALL CABLES SOUND ALIKE! NO DIFFERENCES EVER!" How about just reading a bit closer instead of wasting energy on strawmen? (And speaking of strawman, a very common one continually raised here regards whenever someone dares mention blind testing and sighted bias. To bring up the problem of sighted bias IS NOT to claim "you didn’t hear a difference." It is only to say in some cases, you may certainly have heard a difference, but the method of evaluation doesn’t account for other variables like sighted bias, which allows some doubt. You might have heard it, but the method isn’t that reliable to determine this with great confidence, unfortunately ). The other side of that is that you should respect the rights of others whose opinions differ from yours, and consider that maybe they DO hear something. Again...nothing I wrote is in contradiction to that. Why in the world would I think someone shouldn’t have the right to tell us they heard differences between some cables? That’s bizarre. My biggest problem with the nay-sayers is that they may discourage newbies from listening for themselves and forming their OWN opinions. Aside from the fact I’m not trying to discourage anyone - just giving reasons for my own cautious opinions about cables: My biggest problem with what you are writing is how it suggests you have no confidence that other people aren’t able to process information and make up their own minds. Oh dear...they MAY see someone who gives some reason for skepticism about a certain cable claim. How will they cope???!!! As if there wasn’t a massive number, and greater proportion, of pro-cable views sitting right here to read as well. You are telling them to NOT EVEN TRY, because you have already told them THE TRUTH. And if they DO hear something, they must be wrong. Complete and utter nonsense, as I have done nothing of the kind. Take a few breaths, perhaps re-read what I’ve written with the attitude that nuance is a good thing to notice, then we could possibly have a fruitful conversation about what we both actually believe. |
Prof, the problem with this thread is imbedded in the title: “interconnects and non-believers”: Jesus and non believers Buddha and non believers Muhammad and non believers the devil and non believers Freud and non believers Marx and non believers capitalism and non believers vegan and non believers astrology and non believers some of these require a faith based approach. To some of these, a faith based approach is often applied. So too with COC (the Cult of Cables). |
unreceivedogma ... To some of these, a faith based approach is often applied. So too with COC (the Cult of Cables).Actually, you have this backwards. There's quite a bit of evidence that shows there can be audible differences between cables, some of which I think has been provided to you. So to the extent there's a "cult," it comprises the tiny, noisy minority in denial of the facts, and that seeks to argue its position with a seemingly endless prattle of ill-logic and, often, personal attacks. |
Perhaps, it would be of help to actually understand, what’s wrong with the typical nay-sayer’s, "thinking"(loosely speaking)? https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/xLm9mgJRPvmPGpo7Q/the-cognitive-science-of-rationality Then again, probably not! |
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Bleeds, nice try, but you and so many cable cultists and marketers here conflate my point. I am not saying that there is no difference, I am saying that the differences, small as they are, do not justify the exhorbitant prices asked for from audio enthusiasts, gullible and vulnerable as they are to grandiose claims due to their enthusiasm. |
Ok, accepting for the moment that the cable cultists are correct, then they rightly should pursue the logic of their argument to its penultimate end: https://youtu.be/XJJy6VJvSCk Japanese audiophile goes to the extreme the ultimate end, of course, would be to build your own private power station, preferably in your back yard to minimize the risk of unwanted radiation entering transition lines. |
mbishop63 One thing I've found about interconnect cables is you have to be patient through the "break in period". The improvement in sound quality won't be instantaneous but rather a gradual change. Maybe cable manufacturers could find a way to precondition their products before shipping. Well, if you believe cables need to "break in," have I got a product for you! https://www.thecablecooker.com/ |
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GroverHuffman cables require a break-in period of no less than 15 hours. He won’t audition a design until it is broken-in. I usually cook them for over a day prior to listening to them (listening to his unbroken-in cables one tends to hear dynamically and frequency constricted sound, often bright). Speakers need breaking in, capacitors need breaking-in, cartridges need breaking-in, who doesn’t believe that? So do other components mechanical and electrical. To achieve power purity, where I live in California, all one has to do is install a solar or wind generation system with adequate battery storage, adequate to get off the grid. Much cheaper than a power plant but more than the Japanese enthusiast who hooked up to the utility pole (which could be sending contaminated power anyway). |
unreceivedogma Bleeds, nice try, but you and so many cable cultists and marketers here conflate ...You are either badly confused, or otherwise just being argumentative. I'm neither a "cultist" nor a marketer. You've already stated that it isn't whether there's a difference in cables - we've already shown that there is - but: The point is: is it worth $12K?You've made it clear you don't think premium priced cables are worth the cost, and that's a perfectly valid personal opinion. So you've made your point. Or ... is there an agenda that you're still rather surreptitiously pursuing here?? |
unreceivedogma Ok, accepting for the moment that the cable cultists are correct ...Correct in what? You’ve already stated that the question isn’t whether there’s a difference in cables. So what exactly is the argument you’re trying to make - other than to just further an argument? ... then they rightly should pursue the logic of their argument to its penultimate end: https://youtu.be/XJJy6VJvSCkI’m not sure what the link provided has to do with premium cables at all. And please explain what you mean by the "penultimate end." If you truly believe your statement, what would be the "ultimate end?" I suspect that you really don’t know what the word "penultimate" even means. But then you seem rather confused, generally. |
Speakers need breaking in, capacitors need breaking-in, cartridges need breaking-in, who doesn’t believe that? Who doesn’t believe those things? Generally speaking, from what I’ve seen: You’ll find skeptics among those have relevant knowledge of electronics, engineering and physics. Who aren’t themselves trying to sell you the products in question. Or who cater to professional industries where woo-woo claims tend not to pass the muster, vs those manufacturers that advertise to audiophiles. Or who come from a rigorous scientific background who maintain those as standards for evaluating technical claims. (I’d put, for instance, someone like Dr. Sean Olive in that last category). Most audiophiles are not very technically literate (I include myself as well - I don’t have the technical chops to evaluate many of the technical claims). So high end manufacturers can market with all sorts of technical sounding gibberish. As long as it tickles the audiophile’s "so this means it will sound better" module, it will sell to audiophiles. And since we audiophiles tend to have quite lax methods of testing such claims - if we put it in our systems and think we hear a difference, then the claim was true! - almost any claim can seem to be justified in the audiophile world. This is why I tend to look for opinions from people who have relevant experience and expertise. who don’t have an interest in trying to sell me the product in question. to help vet such claims, Or, who at the very least, display an adherence to empirical rigour, and who don’t ignore relevant variables (e.g. bias etc). So take for instance speaker burn in. Are there relevant experts who critique the idea? Sure. For instance Dr. Sean Olive, an award winning AES member who was a research scientist at the NRC studying "the perception and measurement of loudspeakers, listening rooms," has written to someone asking about speaker break in: “As far as "breaking in" the loudspeakers, this should have no effect on the performance or sound quality of the speaker; unfortunately this one of the many audiophile myths that, in most cases, has little scientific merit. Of course, over time, you may perceive the speakers have changed or improved because you may have adapted to their sound. That is a psychological effect that is not related to any physical change to the loudspeaker itself.” Of course you’ll see some high end speaker manufacturers claiming break in. But for one thing, we have to remember that this can be seen as rather convenient - because there is the well known adaptation effect that occurs in our perception, where we adapt to something, including sounds, over time. So if we find something "wrong" with the sound of a speaker at first, given time we can often adapt to those colorations. A high end dealer or manufacturer claiming "break in" allows for the possibility of this adaptation effect. "You love the sound of our speaker when you first set it up? Great. Told you it was wonderful. Oh, it sounds off to you? Well, don’t send them back, hang on to them and keep listening. They need to break in. Oh...and it can take hundreds and hundreds of hours!" That’s a win-win situation for increasing the likelihood of keeping a sale, so it would be the path of least resistance to any manufacturer to support this idea, no matter what scale of personal confidence they may have in it. And btw, it doesn’t even have to be cynical or deliberate: people selling high end speakers certainly can and do believe in break in. But the fact that break in has this strong added appeal to sales can’t be just ignored. So even for those manufacturers who claim their speakers need a great many hours of break in, I would ask "what data can you show for this claim?" Paul Barton of PSB, for instance, ran tests on speakers/drivers for break in and determined that, while some differences were measurable, they were incredibly minute and barely or not audible. As for Cables, I don’t see large companies with huge amounts of experience in constructing cables for demanding professional environments telling anyone they have to "burn in" their cables - e.g. Belden, Canare. Or take companies like Prysmian Group, the largest manufacturer of cables in the world, who build cables for all manner of the most sensitive requirements. If you download sales/spec sheets on their cables you will see incredibly detailed specifications and values. But nothing suggesting anyone has to "break in" their cables in order to realize their very precise performance values. And if the performances of their cables actually did change that much over some "break in" time that could be a heck of a problem, so that is something they would be very incentivized to mention or deal with. Or take resistors/capacitor "break in." Look at for instance Vishay. First of all, I’ve read reports from people who actually work with Vishay and who have broached the whole "break in" idea with Vishay engineers, concluding the break-in claims aren’t "real." And this makes sense if you look at Vishay’s products and information. They do resistors and capacitors not only for audio, but for a wide range of industries: "industrial, computing, automotive, consumer, telecommunications, military, aerospace, power supplies, and medical markets. ". So their business includes many VERY SENSITIVE USE environments, where precision is everything, and B.S. won’t fly in those environments nearly so much as in the high end audio community. Then look at their product information for any of their passive resistors/capacitors, and you’ll see very detailed technical specifications. Given the sensitivity and seriousness of the use to which many of those will be put, if resistor/capacitor "burn in" were a significant issue, if the values would actually change to some significant degree, that would be a Big Problem. Industries NEED the product to hit those advertised values, right off the bat, not wait around for "burn in" hoping for the best. What I have yet to see in favor of these "burning in of cables/capacitors" claims is what any demanding professional customer for one of these products would want to see: measured differences in "new" vs "broken in" components, with those differences carefully correlated to their level of audibility using controlled listening tests. The effects of bias on perception is very well known and documented. I have a bit of personal acquaintance with this as well, having conducted some blind listening tests of some items (e.g. some cables, CD players/DACs, digital servers). I know what it’s like to "absolutely hear" an "obvious" difference with a new piece of cable etc, but then find this "obvious difference" suddenly disappears when I don’t actually know which cable I’m listening to. It’s very instructive to go through this process, to understand just how vividly our perception can be fooled. It seems that a great many audiophiles think their perception can’t be fooled. "Nobody can tell me I didn’t hear what I know I heard!" All I can say to this is to simply point out it is in contradiction to well established scientific facts about human bias and perception. Which is why I will continue to take such reports, especially on the more controversial subjects, with a grain of salt. And...as it seems required that I point this out in NEON LETTERS every time: None of the above establishes "there are no differences between cables etc" or that "burn in never happens." Rather, they are simply some of the reasons on which I place some of my skepticism and caution about some of the claims in high end audio. I haven’t decided "these things are not true" so much as "If the evidence isn’t of great quality...I’ll hold out for better evidence." |
The Cable Cooker has been around like forever and is a great iconic product. The dude that makes them even did some headphone cables gratis as a special favor. I also used to have a M.O.B.I.E. (Maximum Overdrive Burn In Electronics or whatever) burn-in device I got from the dude that used to show with John Curl and Bob Crump at CES waaay back when. The weird thing, as I understand it, cables need to be re-broken in every so often. Can you believe it? |
