Interconnects and non-believers

Elizabeth - Yeah, can you believe they still want to spend time going back-and-forth on this?

Guys, if you don't hear a difference... just don't spend your $$, and let everyone else make their own decisions.  You don't need to make your opinion into a crusade.

Devilboy - You sort of have it backwards.  There is nothing a wire can do to enhance the signal.  All it can do is degrade it to a greater or lesser degree.  The very best cables do the LEAST damage to the signal, thereby allowing you to hear what is in the recording, for example an expansive soundstage.  The inferior cable is doing something (bad) to mask that information.

"I didn't expect a sort of Spanish Inquisition!"

Prof - You (and  few others here) need to get over yourself.  Since when does my opinion "challenge" yours just by EXISTING?  That's whack!!

Listen, I feel that you have every right to your opinion/observation/belief that all cables sound alike.  In fact, if that is what you HEAR, that is your truth.  And nobody should try to convince you otherwise, nor bend your arm to buy some expensive wire.

The other side of that is that you should respect the rights of others whose opinions differ from yours, and consider that maybe they DO hear something.  Even if you are sure that they don't, why argue about it?

My biggest problem with the nay-sayers is that they may discourage newbies from listening for themselves and forming their OWN opinions.

And THAT is criminal!  What if you're wrong and it leads others to miss something that would bring them joy?

Do you see the difference??  I'm not telling anyone what to do or NOT to do... except telling them to listen and make their own decisions.  You are telling them to NOT EVEN TRY, because you have already told them THE TRUTH.  And if they DO hear something, they must be wrong.

I'm not asking YOU to keep an open mind... just allow others too, OK?? 

Prof - Maybe I’ve been unfair to you, as your last post makes much more sense than your original reply to me

To refresh your memory, my suggestion was to let people make up their own minds. Now, it seems like you’re agreeing with that.

I agree 100% with you that NEITHER side of the cable debate should ’crusade’. So, yes, when you turn my quote around it is EQUALLY valid.

I went back and re-read the OP, and I can see your point. Honestly, he sounded to me like someone who just now realized that cables can make a difference and wanted to share. (That last line about "dogma or delusion" was 100% unnecessary.)

Sorry about this long post, but I’d like to clarify a few things...

I think each person should determine for themselves whether they hear differences in cables, how any such differences present themselves and whether they are worth the price of the cable (or indeed, if they are an improvement).

I personally DO think cables affect sound, and I think there are scientific explanations as to why they do. Some of these are known, and some we have yet to discover.

I also believe that when you observe a difference that you cannot measure, ’science’ means to look for new measurements, rather than assuming you already know everything there is to know about the physical universe.

The reason I believe that cables affect sound is that I’ve HEARD it many many times, not due to any ’dogma’. I do believe in blind tests, and these differences do show up blind or otherwise. In fact, they are often so evident that no blind test is really needed. Though I still use blind tests to decide on preference, if that is not clear (or to confirm it). I also like to get a few other sets of ears in the room to see if they hear what I do,

MOST IMPORTANT...

1. There ARE newbies on these forums who will accept your (or someone’s) opinion as a "more experienced audiophile" rather than listening for themselves. It may be impossible for them to audition for themselves... or they may just be lazy. But I KNOW it happens, because I have people tell me "what [they] read on Audiogon.

So it IS important that we not close any minds here while expressing our opinions & experiences.

2. The other thing that drives me crazy, and IMHO ruins threads like these are these ’flame wars’ between certain posters (you know who you are) that serve no purpose for the rest of us. Guys, exchange e-mails and go at it. We’re trying to have a discussion here.

Any time you're telling somebody they are "wrong", or throwing shade & snark, or comparing the size of your "credentials", you’re wasting everybody else’s time and ruining the thread. This is about audio, not you.

BTW, thanks to the posters who endorsed my common-sense solution of letting everybody figure this out for themselves. Thanks for being open-minded, and

Happy Listening to Everyone! (Prof, Peace!)

PROF - Thanks for the quick reply.  Now you're going to get all angry with me about burn-in (LOL).

All I can tell you is what I've heard, in blind tests and unscientifically, and I can guarantee that I'm not delusional.  I never believed A/C cords could make a diff. until I'd heard it ... over and over.

Not asking you to 'believe' anything (except that I'm sincere).  But see if you can get a blind-test listen yourself.  Might change your mind... or not. 

Prof - I understand your skepticism about burn-in.  All I can tell you is that I've heard it's effects by testing identical interconnects after one set spent 48 hrs. on a cable-cooker.  There were 5 or 6 people there.  We all clearly hard the difference and could identify the 'cooked' cable.  And only one of us knew which cable was which. 

We did that test specifically due to skepticism (like yours) that maybe you just "get used" to components & cables, rather than any real burn-in.

But Prof, speakers??  You've got to be kidding.  They're essentially motors with moving parts, and there WILL be physical break-in, always.

If you know a dealer, this is an easy blind test too.  Have him set up two pair of the same spkrs - his broken-in demos and a pair straight out of the box.  I'll be very surprised if they sound the same to you.

Now, I'll agree with you that for most applications, wires do not need break-in.  They conduct electricity very well 'out of the box'.  But there's something different (more!) going on when they're used in audio. 

We're probably (IMHO 'clearly') dealing with things that a heart monitor or a computer don't 'care' about.

At least that is what I've heard many times over many years.

One more thing (Boy, am I long-winded today!)...

In these forums, you see an awful lot of skepticism about the HEA industry.  Some of it is - no doubt - justified... especially about certain dealers.

OTOH, over the past 10-12 years I've had the opportunity to become acquainted with a number of audio designers, distributers & dealers. MOST of them are really nice, honest folks who love music and want you to enjoy it.  (And, yes, they hope to make a lot of $$ helping you enjoy it.)

Don't assume that ALL of them are just in it for a buck.  A few are!  But most of them are a lot more like you. (Don't you wish you could make a living in HEA, or whatever your favorite hobby is?)

I'm not saying you can trust ALL of these people.  But don't paint them all with the same brush. The majority really are good guys.

Seems like this discussion has taken better turn (from 'cable wars').  Did I do that?  If so, I'm proud.

PROF, GEOFF & ELIZABETH, thank you for your good posts.

PROF - I was kidding.  I know you're not angry.  In fact, you seem quite sensible... even though we disagree on some things.  And btw, I think Elizabeth was referring to others, not you or Geoff.  For example, TEO made a good point, but in a rather insulting manner.  But you know who then real trolls (Clearthink?) and snark-monsters (unreceivedogma?) are.

I agree that skepticism is healthy... IF it is healthy skepticism, and not just ignorant nay-saying.  As J. Gordon Holt said, "If you haven't heard it, you have no opinion."  I also believe that you should always trust your ears, but never expect anyone else to trust YOUR ears.  Each to their own! 

PROF - On speaker break-in... It's difficult to hear in 'real life', as your new spkrs. are going to break in gradually, over a long period of time.  Like the frog in hot water, you may not notice the gradual improvement.

Most people notice it when they replay something they had listened to early after the spkrs. have had a month or two of use.

If you can audition duplicate spkrs. - broken in vs. brand-new - it's much easier to discern.

RE pricey cables... I didn't say they weren't too expensive.  While some cables are much more expensive to produce than some people here understand, the mark-ups are also quite high.  The question is not how the price relates to the costs, so much as how it relates to the resulting improvement in sonics.

In my case, I've found that cabling can make huge differences in sound - at least, they're huge to me because they get me closer to reality. In fact, I think of interconnects & A/C cords more as 'components' than 'accessories' due to their impact on sonics.

As always, not asking you to take my word for it, so much as honestly sharing what I've heard.  I did not believe cables could make such profound differences until I'd heard it myself... repeatedly.

Example:  My Sunfire amp has a dedicated A/C cord, because 20 yrs. ago Bob Carver did not believe it could make a difference.  His new tubed amps have removable A/C cords, because since then he's HEARD that he was wrong.

I don't intend to change anyone's mind, but if I can OPEN one or two, they might change themselves...