If you listen to anything other than Classic Jazz, don't read this.
:) I'm a Jazz only intermediate audiophile looking to improve my system. i ONLY listen to jazz, and i think that matters. If you are of the opinion that great speakers make all music sound good then move on to the next post, because the premise here is that speakers for Acoustic Jazz ( Big Band to Post Bop) have different requirements. My jazz audiophile buddies and i hav A/B'd lots of different speaker/amp/turntable/cartridge combinations as a fun hobby for the last 3 years. i've gone through at least 3 whole systems to get where i am now: All Rega System - Rega Exex-R, Rega P3, with upgrades, Rega MC Phono Pre, Rega Apheta 2 Cartridge, Rega RX5 Speakers.
It sounds really great, but want to get to amazing if possible, and have recently done some speaker comparisons with some Paradigms and Harbeths that show the RX5's could have a tighter, deeper bass and bit more high frequency...
The challenge is threefold - 1 )information out there is hard to come by, often confusing and i haven't found much information specifically on what speakers jazz heads prefer. 2) I want to be able to put them up against my current system in my room, which seems a difficult task 3) They have to look good. Aesthetics matter to me. Tektons and Magnapans are cool But Ugly AF, and not going to work for me.
i want someone to tell me this is the best my system is going to get and just enjoy it (which i do 82.5% of the time), or recommend a few things to try, hopefully with recommendation for speakers to try, but i'm open to other suggestions.
ericmbass I do listen to all types of music but I share the appreciation you have for classic jazz.
Rega makes fine turntables and in recent years they've made some very fine integrated amplifiers. Speakers not so much. One respected British audio reviewer panned the RX5 as "Not a particularly exciting or entertaining listen."
I currently have Revel, Paradigm Signature and Apogee speakers at home. I swap out some of the best tube and solid state amps, use a tube/mosfet hybrid as well as they suit me that week, day or for just for a particular album. Changing things up is half the fun.
But in the several decades that I've owned mid to hi-fi systems, listening to Jazz the speakers I enjoyed the most were Vandersteen Signature 3As.
The Vandersteen 2CE Signature II is a Stereophile recommended speaker, comparable in size to your Regas, that I'd highly suggest you listen to. An updated Signature III has just been introduced so the Signature II can be found for really good prices.
I have the classic Bill Evans early Scott LaFaro stuff on vinyl (and some on CD) and am a huge LaFaro fan...the vinyl is the re-issued Fantasy stuff (stereo versions) so nothing special there (except great sound), and LaFaro sounds fine on my Klipsch Heresy IIIs and 2 REL subs with tubes driving ’em. I worked with Peter Washington (one most respected of the current first call NYC jazz bassists...a great musician) mixing live shows a few times in different settings and he’s an audio geek with Tannoy speakers, a Cary SLP 98 tube preamp, and some esoteric Brooklyn made tube power amps the names of which I can’t remember...All recordings sound different of course, but acoustic jazz is mostly what I listen to these days and I cherish great sounding stuff...a current fave is the Bill Stewart "Band Menu" trio CD with Bill on drums, Larry Grenadier on bass, and Walter Smith III on tenor sax...just a beautiful clear and superbly performed recording.
Sorry for the delay in answering this Eric, I have Waltz for Debbie and Sunday at the Village Vanguard. I can only find that set on CD. Thinking about it. So you have two recs for Sound Labs speakers. Look at the Ultimate 545's. If you can afford them you will never get better reproduction of an acoustic bass. The only speaker that could match them is the old Apogee Diva. Because there is no cross over the bass is in perfect phase with itself. It sounds like one instrument. When you compare it to other loudspeakers you realize that acoustic bass is fractured for lack of a better term. The size of the instrument is right. Other speakers with a few exceptions make the instrument small. Pianos have a similar problem if they are recorded correctly. As one Scott LaFaro fan to another, trust me on this one. You will think you died and made it to heaven.
@baranyi Yes, that is true. It's especially challenging in that the boss asked me to reduce the amount of audio gear visible in the living room. She might as well have asked me to remove a leg. I can do it, but why???
Anyway, I found a great deal on a used BAT VK-300x hybrid integrated amp. 6922-driven preamp and SS amp. Sounds good, so far. The other option is to use a tube preamp to drive SS monoblocks via balanced output. I just need to hide the mono blocks behind the Obs and use some strategically placed houseplants.
Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled programming...
Other speakers I am interested based on good reviews but don’t have a chance to hear them are: Avantgarde uno nano Klipsch Heresy IV Pure Audio Project modular speakers
I also listen to Jazz only. I also like the Magnepan but think they are too big and ugly. My speakers are put in the living room. I just received the Spatial Audio X5 and man, I love it. I think open baffle speaker will give you the soundstage and openness for Jazz without the big panel. Here is the thread in audiocirclenwith my impression compared to Zu Omen Def.
br the shahinians do need the right amp to come alive! I enjoyed a variety of Dick’s speakers and they typically needed a good stiff solid state amp to work properly. A friend brought over an old Octave Research Class A amp and the obelisks really sang. They were the top end speaker at the audio salon I used to frequent as a kid called Digital Sound around 1980. Hope Dick’s son keeps the brand alive.
@atmasphere I have not heard the Classic audio speakers in years and I couldn't describe their sound accurately now. I do remember them being very good horn speakers.
I have had some Sound Labs in for an extended period when I had my dealership. Good but I'm not really a planar/ELS speaker guy. Or rather, my room placement options are not friendly to these types of speakers.
For most of my listening I'm extremely happy with my rebuilt Shahinian Obelisks. The conventional wisdom is that they are difficult to drive. Not true - they are simply difficult to drive well in order to provide their best sound.
I will simply say that I have not yet found the "perfect" speaker or one
that is absolutely best with all types of music. I wish I could, it
would save me a lot of time, money and aggravation.
Sound Labs are great with everything I've thrown at them. So are the Classic Audio Loudspeakers. Those two speakers have very different amplifier requirements! I have a set of KLH model Nineteens in my bedroom and they seem to handle all genres as well as long as I don't play them too loud :) But the amp I play them with only makes about 5 watts (although the sub amp can make 1400...) so no worries.
So in those cases that's cocktail lounge jazz, rock, downtempo 80s pop, shoegaze, ambient, disco, classical, ethnic folk, bluegrass, spoken word, punk, death metal, speed metal, medieval, polyphony, new age, gothic metal, techno, gothic punk, 70s prog rock, big band, electro, electronic music, freeform jazz, fusion, acid folk and really, I can go on and on.
These very different speakers can do all that no worries. If you have a speaker that doesn't, I'd like to know what it is! I bought those KLH Model Nineteens on ebay for about $60.00.... although the Golden Ear Subx cost a bit more...
@mijostyn Have you heard the new 4 LP box set of Bill Evans live at the Village Vanguard. Lafaro's sound is incredible, even on my "intermediate" system :) My other favorite Scott Lafaro sound is on the first Victor Feldman Record. It's the gold standard gut string sound I've been trying to achieve for the last 25 years! Just like with my audiophile search, i'm getting closer :)
The longer I swim in this swirling vortex passion the more I know the room is key. Some or a lot of room treatments can not be ignored. Power too.
The room daddy oh; the room will make it copacetic (said like Ben Sidran or Ken Nordine).
For me Jazz is better on Analog systems unless the system is high ($$$$) end.
I happy listen as you do (now playing Wes Montgomery D natural blues) using a PrmaLuna HP (KT120's) and Sonus faber Guarneri evolution speakers (now easy to find at 1/2 to 1/3 of their original price same for PL integrated).
Any and all of the above are great recommendations. A great speaker and systems will do justice to all music excepting gamelan music. That's not my cup of tea.
A fellow Jazz hound here- upgrade your turntable (TT) to a P8. Then consider a loudspeaker from Thiel Audio (CS 2.4, CS 2.7 or CS 3.7 (if your have a larger room/space)).
Being on the west coast, there will be inventory local to you. Keep us posted and have fun!
Eric, acoustic bass is one of the most difficult instruments to get right. I always use Dave Holland and or Ron Carter records to evaluate records. I only wish I could get a good recording of Scott Lafaro. IMHO the only speaker that will get this right along with the other instruments are full range ESLs. Forget dynamic drivers. There is always a crossover in the way that plays havoc with acoustic bass. Check out the Sound Labs Ultimate 545. They are eons ahead of any other speaker their size and price.
The idea that particular speakers aren't more suited to some types of music and listening styles than others is absurd. The most obvious is amplified bass and listening volume. If you like listening loudly to music with a lot of bass, you need a different speaker than someone who listens to string quartets. Obviously. At any given price point there will be a better speaker for string quartets and a better one for hip hop. For small scale classical you want to pay for the best midrange and highs you can get, but are willing to sacrifice dynamic range, especially in the bass. For hip hop, you want to be able to crank up the volume and get a deep bass massage. A lot more of the money needs to go towards higher quality, bigger bass drivers, a bigger box.
If you have a means of designing a speaker to favor a certain genre of music, its likely that you also have derived a new branch of physics.
Ralph, I believe I agreed with you in my last post regarding speaker design.
I will simply say that I have not yet found the "perfect" speaker or one that is absolutely best with all types of music. I wish I could, it would save me a lot of time, money and aggravation.
While I respect and admire both of these industry stalwarts, I disagree
with their assertions. I do agree with atmasphere that no rational mind
would purposely design a speaker to play only one type of music. But
that does not mean that all speakers are equally good for all types of
music.
@br3098 If you have a means of designing a speaker to favor a certain genre of music, its likely that you also have derived a new branch of physics. At the very least you stand to make millions if you can figure out a way to do this. No-one has ever been able to do it before and so currently there are no loudspeaker examples.
On that account the simpler explanation, using Occam's Razor, is that the idea is simply a myth.
The absolute **classic** example of this is the JBL L-100 loudspeaker that has been the rock goto for 40 years. The only problem is, while it is a classic speaker, its not any better at rock than anything else. I find it colored (at least the earlier versions- the new one might be different) and the better the recording, the more the flaws of the speaker are revealed.
Some people say that Cerwin Vegas are what you need for rock as they play loud, but orchestras play loud too and need the same bass response. That bass response is needed for jazz if you're going to get the bass drums right; quite simply what makes a speaker great for one genre of music makes it great for all genres.
In reality a speaker is either good on all genres of music or it is not a good speaker.
atmasphere said:
This is arguably the biggest myth about loudspeakers in particular- that they favor certain genres, the classic being JBL L100s are best at rock.
While I respect and admire both of these industry stalwarts, I disagree with their assertions. I do agree with atmasphere that no rational mind would purposely design a speaker to play only one type of music. But that does not mean that all speakers are equally good for all types of music.
I agree that if you listen to many types of music and you have some flexibility with your gear, many (most) speakers will work very well with all musical genres. But there are a lot of different speaker designs out there: full range vs. limited range, dynamic vs. planar/EL vs horns, unidirectional vs. bidirectional vs. polydirectional... I think you get the point. Not all speakers sound (as) good with different music to me and my ears.
Example: I love single driver monitors paired with small SET amps. This would not be my combo of choice for heavy metal or large orchestras. But for music that works in the 80 Hz-10 kHz (aka most music) they sound great. There is a special quality that I don't hear from other combinations. I love them for jazz music. But I don't find that they work well for "complex music" like large orchestral recordings and opera. Does this make them bad speakers or poor designs? You might say yes but I don't think so.
If there was a single speaker design, technology, size, manufacturer that was clearly best there would only be one speaker. In theory, of course. Then there are the contrarians, like me.
thanks @tablejockey - great suggestions.. P8 may be in my future :)
@m-db - omg. hilarious!
@devilboy - a good friend has explored this and it has been fun to watch and listen... I like the concept and if i had a second listening room it would be great to explore on my own. thanks for the suggestion!!!
I can't recommend a specific speaker but given the music you listen to, I'm surprised you haven't gone the single ended triode into a high efficiency speaker route.
Absolutly, if your going for that woody Bass use spruce cone footers.
Eric, it seems you've passed your first query by fire with your sense of humor intact or does lugging a giant but delicate fiddle around demand an inherent sensibility? Welcome to Audiogon.
My Eidolons are indeed Bebop only speakers. Their faceted enclosure are especially complimentary to Thelonious Monk's angular lyric. When my wife plays everything Greatfull Dead the Avalons sound awful. They make Bobby's guitar sound out of tune and Jerry sounds like he's practicing. What's up with that? The manufacturer suggested a problem with my source which I'm considering as I write this.
The premise is bogus and counterproductive. A good system reproduces the signal, period. If you think otherwise that will only lead you to select for colorations that catch your ear or you happen to favor for now. Colorations however always eventually become tiresome.
That said, its your system. The jazz sound you like is made primarily with brass- sax, trumpet, trombone, cymbals. Seek out brass footers, cones, and anything else made out of brass. It will bring those instruments to life and make the cymbals shimmer like you won't believe.
If you're 82.5 % "there" already, read the threads on what a sub(s) will do for your listening enjoyment. Have you optimized the speaker position/room? If not, it may get you closer to the last 17.5%. If your setup is in a living space, then consider simply enjoying the music. Any speaker is going to be compromised and never heard near its potential.
Upgrading to the P8 with your cart definitely would bring Ray Brown ,Mingus and Paul Chambers in the room with of course, a nice original press(no reissue). Subjectively, tube phonostage adds more "real" to the puzzle.
Record play(original press) and tubes just seem more convincing to me. Your preferred periods of Jazz were laid down with tubes.Those Blue Notes,Riverside,Verves etc. were done in studios with mostly tube gear.
Just as the wisdom states- speakers/amp are not genre specific. Getting all the pieces to work for your ears, is the challenge. Eyes too, I suppose. I happen to agree. Its gotta look good. That goes for the entire room.
Speaker evaluation is best done in your place. Sometimes a leap of faith, if you're restricted to just reading reviews/research without at least a demo with a dealer.
Pick a few popular brands and research the hell out of them.Then the wisdom pops in to offer technical facts/perspective to consider along with fingers crossed.
Don't buy the hype. A good speaker mated with a good amp that can drive that speaker and sound wonderful with Jazz will sound great with Rock, Country, etc.
I am an Engineer and unfortunately, was.... a classical violinist. I love any music that is good. Jazz, R&B, Rock (Dire Straits is rock right?), Some Country (really liking Shelby Lynne), Blues. My point is that my system sounds great with either.
If you are of the opinion that great speakers make all music sound good
then move on to the next post, because the premise here is that speakers
for Acoustic Jazz ( Big Band to Post Bop) have different requirements.
My jazz audiophile buddies and i hav A/B'd lots of different
speaker/amp/turntable/cartridge combinations as a fun hobby for the last
3 years. i've gone through at least 3 whole systems to get where i am
now:
I guess I don't have to move on- not yet anyway. I'm not of the opinion.
I happen to know rather than believe. You simply can't, and I mean **can't**, design a speaker or amplifier or preamp or whatever, to favor a particular genre of music. This is arguably the biggest myth about loudspeakers in particular- that they favor certain genres, the classic being JBL L100s are best at rock.
The simple fact is that all musicians make music in the same set of frequencies, and speakers have to get this right. The speakers themselves don't have taste, neither do amplifiers, so they don't know or care what you play through them. What makes a speaker good for jazz also makes it good for classical or death metal. The better you get it to play one genre, the better you get it to play **all** genres.
It really is that simple- and isn't a matter of debate (even though somehow it is, despite this being the 'information' age...). FWIW I'm telling you this as a degreed engineer and designer of audio equipment (we get nice reviews in the high end press); there isn't a class or even a day in engineering school where they reveal how to make anything electronic work particularly well with one genre as opposed to another.
I love the (small) amount of jazz I play on my JBL 4319 monitors, which you can get for $1500 less than what I paid for them a year and an half ago. A very underrated speaker and a steal at that price ($2500).
I seriously wonder if the JBL L100 would sound any better at their $4000 asking price. Try to audition a pair if you can.
Ericmbass, ah, how lovely that it has not become "eric embarrass "!
(Glad I relented and took a lighthearted approach to response)
Any speaker pictured in my virtual system is reviewed at Dagogo.com and would yield it's own particular flavor of wonderful with Classic Jazz. Curious about brands, just ask.
I strongly suggest as matter of first priority that you get sorted out what genre of speaker (i.e. dynamic - as currently, hybrid dynamic, horn hybrid, full range, panel, open baffle, etc. You would likely enjoy based on attributes. Sysrem development will follow. If uninterested in changing system, then perhaps stay with dynamic, hybrid dynamic, or full range.
I love classic jazz, along with just about everything else. But I opened the thread anyway, even though I was warned.
I doubt anyone else who posted fit your criteria either. I’ve only known one such person in my life, sadly he is no longer with us.
I agree with wolf. A good speaker is a good speaker and will treat all music equally well. If it doesn’t, it won’t make my short list. Good luck with your search.
This is why i love audiogon! I'm really loving all the feedback and suggestions, and welcome it all, including the insults, which i deserve.. i was in fact serious and also attempting some dry humor as well to try to hone in on what i'm looking for. All of your comments and suggestions are helpful.
@soix I appreciate your suggestion.. don't be sad, i do listen to other stuff.. and appreciate your feedback. @whoopycat thank you for that-i will look into Loki @douglas_schroeder i am grateful for your frank comments. . it was 90% dry humor, but i am also guilty of both a little pride and a lot of ignorance... thanks also to @lancelock i will look into the Jansen
As a musician and jazz freak (and audio freak) who works with jazz musicians as a live sound mixer/producer, I can state without a doubt that there are is no "jazz centric" gear...period. The dynamic range of jazz taken as a genre is astonishing...good gear will get you through Vijay Iyer, Jaco, and Coltrane equally well, and reproduce anything else you toss at it with aplomb.
I'd look for a pair of Thiel 2 series:2.3, 2.4, 2.7. They're great for acoustic music but not ideal for excessive deep bass that is common in some forms of amplified music and movies. A lot of people describe them as Maggies with bass.
BTW, I tried Spatial Audio's M5 Sapphires and wasn't impressed. They work well for many. But that just goes to show that everyone's hearing and preferences are different. You really need to go out and do the work (audition/demo/research) if you want the results.
I would recommend a pair of Vandersteen 1ci with a Belles Aria integrated amp. The Vandy 1ci are good all-arounders but I feel like they really shine on music that is "less dense." By that I mean the fewer the instruments, the better they sound IMO.
Listening to Miles Davis, Kind of Blue; Oscar Peterson - Night Train, Ray Brown - Soular Energy; or Dave Brubeck - Time Out. These recordings sound simply amazing on my humble system.
The Vandy's produce plenty of low end, throw a decent soundstage; and have a nice full mid range. I am thoroughly impressed by their ability to convey the correct size and scale of instuments.
When I listen to Take 5, Joe Morello's Ludwig drums sound like they're in the damn room with me. My Kef R11's, at almost 4x the cost vs. Vandersteen, still cant do that.
i want someone to tell me this is the best my system is going to get
They could, but they’d just be lying. Back in the real world...
First, and as much as I like jazz, I find it sad you don’t listen to other types of music, especially now where streaming puts worlds of awesome music literally at your fingertips. Second, you’ll get better and more specifically targeted recommendations if you share what aspects of sound and system performance are most important to you and what you’d like most to improve upon over what you have now (deeper bass and more treble doesn’t really narrow things down much). “Classic Jazz” is a varied genre in and of itself, so using that to pigeonhole a speaker or system is too broad therefore not terribly useful or effective. Last, having some indication of budget would be helpful. With the information you’ve provided thus far you’ll just get a wide range of relatively unfocused recommendations, which makes this more of a fairly unproductive crapshoot as it stands.
Ah, I blew it; I read the post. Now, you'll have to endure my reply!
Is the OP so steeped in the culture of live Jazz music, and so ignorant of electronics, that he has no idea how obtuse, how idiosyncratic his search criteria?
As a reviewer, I will make it clear; selection of one limited genre of music for assessment of a speaker, or any component is self-defeating. It is like looking for an athlete to compete in the decathlon, but assessing their ability by only desiring to know how they perform in the Javelin throw.
Note well: A speaker that performs better in all musical genres will perform better in Classical Jazz. If someone is telling you otherwise, they are giving you horrid advice, and or have vested interests in the guidance.
Almost without fail in 30 years+ of involvement in the High End, speakers that are said to perform with certain genres of music better, are worse speakers holistically. They are usually quite limited in critical areas of performance, tonally as well.
You may wish to consider my adage born of much system building and assessment of hundreds of speakers: The greatest impediment to advancing an audio system is the audiophile.
Now, you didn't want my advice, but I gave it to you anyway as a cordial response to what I saw as a dismissive, pride-filled first post. (You may have been using very dry humor, and I have given you the benefit of the doubt, so to speak)
Welcome to the community! I hope you are successful in your search. It should not be too difficult to improve markedly upon the speakers you currently own. There are numerous levels of sound quality improvement available to you. Imo, at this stage you are closer to the midway point on the High End performance spectrum than the top. :)
In reality a speaker is either good on all genres of music or it is not a good speaker. It can be no other way. In fact, if a reviewer ever recommends a particular speaker for a specific type of music you should immediately discount this individual as a source of future information.
@ericmbass I have Janszen zA2.1 speakers with Linear Tube Audio ZOTL40 and Preamp. This is a combination to make a jazz enthusiast weep. I finally got this setup in a bigger room so the speakers can breath a little and they are beautiful to look at.
You might want to consider adding tone controls such as a Schiit Loki, to see what your current system is capable of when given some extra go juice on the low end.
You mentioned being able to A/B against your current system. There are companies like Music Direct, Crutchfield and Zu that give you 60 days in your home.
thank you mr. decibel. great advice.. i've tried switching the RX5's a few times. i had them facing inward for a while and just switched to outward a few days ago and really liking it more and more.... i also heard some crazy idea of removing some of the filler from inside, but too scared to do that unless you know of a website or video describing how to..
thanks again for your thoughtful response. i would love to hear those klipsch some day...
I can't help but think we're listening for the same goal so you've provoked my first forum speaker suggestion.
My working fiddle is a 3/4 German Benedikt Lang Mittenwald-ish shop Bass circa later 30's. Damaged in 2018, stunningly improved by Gael Mckeon.
All I can say is, after all the time and money I wasted on this hobby these took me right off the merry-go-round. My Wife and Son realized their musicality within the first few minutes of listening. Probably the most copied cabinets in the industry.
I searched for quite a while to find an affordable standard pair of them used. Today I'm taking a wild guess at under $8K with the worthwhile Diamonds fetching a few $K more? There simply isn't a photo that does the workmanship justice. Beware of purchasing them without their crates and the space to store them.
First, and foremost, ime, do you have your RX5’s, with the side firing woofers, facing in, or out ? Try it both ways, if you haven’t, as one way will sound better to you. Play with their placement from the rear wall, as well. Speakers do not know what music is being played through them, but I do understand your concern. A great speaker should be able to play any kind of music. My modified Klipsch Lascala’s, play everything well, and I do listen to a lot of jazz.
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