The story I'm about to tell does not reflect in anyway any purposely wrongdoing by TMR. I have dealt with TMR in the past and although there was a glitch, they went out of their way to rectify it and all ended well; so, I know they are good guys that practice good business. However, the other day I purchased, and by purchase, I mean moved into a cart and then pressed the pay button for a pair of Gallo speakers. To my surprise I received an SMS saying my card was charged on the one hand, and at the same time I've received a Message that the speakers have already been sold to someone else. This is the short end of the story; the full story shows up a few posts below. I admit at first I've been very upset and I started this post in a different way, it parked a lot of reaction, most of it in favor of TMR which I find to be great, but the real question I want to ask and this is regardless of if it happened with TMR or with any other venue, is, how can it be that once you move any product into a cart and press the pay button within a few moments the product can be sold simultaneously to another buyer? isn't there any smarter way to prevent such an incident which is obviously going to leave one of the customers disappointed and upset?
I am communicating with Dan offline now, but an interesting question was raised here that I want to address for everyone's knowledge. When shopping on our website (or any e-commerce site), merely putting an item in your cart does not hold that product indefinitely. It's not the same as a physical "cart" in a supermarket. Here's why - over the past 30 days alone 349 carts totaling $458,241.72 were abandoned on our website. "Abandoned carts" are when a customer places something in their cart but never completes the checkout. This is extremely prevalent in the world of eCommerce. Only about 25% of customers that place items in their cart on our website actually complete checkout. As such, we don't remove items from other marketplaces until checkout is actually complete.
Now to be fair to Dan, he was under the impression that he HAD actually made a payment based on a hold of funds his bank was showing him. We never had a transaction on our end. There's no money to refund. So we are sorting that out, and maybe we will discover something along the way that needs to be addressed.
Another big change we have made that is relevant to this conversation - we are in the process of making a dramatic change to our checkout process for Audiogon sales. Many of you may not be aware, but there was a significant security breach on Audiogon last month. When logging in, we were logged in to some of YOUR accounts. And we had users reporting that they were logging into ours. We can't claim to take our customers' privacy and security seriously if we don't respond to this. As such, we are turning off the built-in checkout for Audiogon and sending each and every customer a secure checkout link following the sale. This should also cut down on some of the rare stock-level issues like this. As a featured dealer on Audiogon, we are within the rules to publish our contact information within our listings etc. As such, we are openly encouraging everyone to shop with us directly for the freshest inventory, lowest pricing and most responsive sales support (and best privacy and security). Thanks again for your continued support. We are truly blessed to have the opportunity to serve such a wonderful community. I'm always happy to hear from anyone with suggestions about how we can serve you better.
Troide trust me , I feel safe buying at TMR, than any other place.Nothing is perfect. The speaker issue, I believe it’s unfortunate the deal was not completed. Trust me , TMR are legit.
This title caught my attention as I am considering buying a fairly pricey item from TMR. Seems to me from the responses from TMR as well as others here that this is a good, responsible company who has a very good track record.
In terms of what the customer has posted here, there was definitely dirty laundry aired here, despite what he might like to believe.
I run a consumer based business myself and my employees and myself work very hard at being responsive. There are always a few faults, and customers airing dirty laundry on public sites and forums to get what they want, fair or unfair, is just part of where we are as a society.
Dan I have the same experience at Amazon , I ordered a merchandise, showing available, But the other buyer push the place the order button ahead of me, He got the marchandise and I got none, I understand that, it’s a better luck next time thing.
I think the OP was respectful and objective with his original post. It's unfortunate that things turned out the way they did. I also think Josh of TMR was more than fair and understanding in his reply. I think this is a case of a good customer and a well meaning retailer having a misunderstanding. I'm sure they will be able to work it out. Many times these types of posts turn ugly and it's refreshing that this one did not.
dear jjss49 I'd like to start by saying there is no "us"... you wrote the post please speak for yourself, thank you.
as to airing dirty laundry, I think even Josh understood this is not the case here. I have two objectives in mind when writing this post: one is to bring up an issue with online buying when using multiple venues. the second one was to get heard buy TMR after I tried doing so directly and was unsuccessful. So please.... thanks Dan
glad you are speaking out here and more importantly, helping out the customer who feels he has been mistreated
would have been better he just work it out directly with your folks, but some feel being a squeaky wheel airing dirty laundry gets them where they want to go faster... maybe it is true but not such a pretty sight for the rest of us
hope you all at tmr are doing ok in this difficult time; seems like the hifi gear market is doing fairly well with everyone stuck at home more than ever
So, I did some homework and I have a few answers and a few questions, but I'm going to respect your request to continue this conversation directly with you; not on this forum, so I won't be responding to you on these pages but rather I'll talk to you later. However there are a few things I need to say before I close up this whole thing: I made it very clear that TMR could be the best operation on Earth yet I feel and I emphasize the words "I feel" that I was done wrong buy TMR, meaning it could even be an electronic glitch on your system but the feeling is still the same; I went ahead, I actually pressed the purchase button through PayPal and was later notified that the product is no longer available, that's the bottom line… and as you said yourself, I have all the right to feel disappointed. However never did I say that you guys don't run one of the best operations in the used audio gear world, never have I called you anything suggesting you have purposely done me wrong; more so, I think I've achieved at least one thing by this post and that's to get you the CEOs attention, something I was unable to do through the chat with Adriene. I'm actually happy to see the wide support TMR has received on this thread, something that works in the favor of TMR, all that while I was still able to get my point across and to get your attention. I will now contact you directly and I'm sure once I explain to you exactly what happened you will 100% empathize with my bad feeling and hopefully this will help fix whatever problem there may be in the electronic system… I want to thank everybody and all you goners, who participated in this thread, even those who did not take my side, because if you read carefully, I never expected anyone to take one side or the other I really just wanted to air a principal in shopping online that should not be very different from shopping in the real world… Once you put a product in your cart (pressed "buy now")that product cannot be taken away buy another customer without your consent without a warning without a good reason if the product is in the cart you must assume, I'm going to buy it (sale PENDING)… just like in the supermarket… I may be still shopping around for more products in your shop and I may have run to the manager to clarify a few questions but that doesn't mean I gave up the product, Plus when I reach you in person I will show you I actually pulled out my wallet and offered to pay, a payment that was declined for reasons you and I will find out in our private conversation. thanks for listening, thanks for participating and keep running a great business… sincerely Dan Thesound
TMR is one of the best if not the place for online used equipment very reliable. TMR and another in Chicago are phenomenal . Don't want to mention names but I have had some real problems with like companies. "Factory certified by our technicians" beware.......
Hi Dan, feel free to email me directly and we can figure out what happened. If there is an error occurring with out shopping cart, I'd love to gather some details.
Dear Mr.
Josh Jackson , (CEO) I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Give me a few hours and I will share my thoughts....and why I started this post...
Hi ml8764ag, we currently have 6 full-time technicians who are testing used gear day in and day out. On average, they spend about one hour with each piece. Some things require more time. Some less. This amounts to about 30-40 pieces of gear / day that we are testing. Of everything that we sell, about 4% of our sales result in some sort of defect being reported. We offer a full return policy, and everything that is returned is tested again. In the end, we find that less than 2% of ALL of the products we sell have some sort of post-sale issue or defect. While we are constantly battling to lower this number, the reality is that there are many manufacturers in our industry that have a higher defect rate on BRAND NEW products.
As anyone with any experience buying and selling used audio gear can attest, some unforeseen issues will invariably happen with any seller. It's how that seller responds that makes the biggest difference. In short, yes we absolutely test every product we sell. Just ask Dan, Duncan, Ben, Kate, Kyle or Jeremy - the folks that do this work every day. They all take a lot of pride in the work, and though their title is "technician" I know that they all see themselves as part of our customer service team - working to make sure you all have a positive experience. Thanks for the question - read more about our recently launched "certified pre-owned" program here: https://tmraudio.com/certified-pre-owned-hifi/
Josh/TMR....thanks for taking the time to respond here (I know that doing so can be a very slippery slope; )) ....Your thoughtful response is much appreciated.
Do you or do you not pledge to (reasonably) test used equipment before selling...and further, is that not part of your value added?
The question is not meant to be snarky...honestly want to set expectations.
I definitely have not forsaken TMR....but would ask more questions before another purchase.
Hi Dan, since you decided to ask your question in public rather than reply to our questions directly, I'll go ahead and respond to you here as well.
Regarding the transaction back in April of 2018 for the Metronome CD player. We all agree that was an inexcusable mistake. As such, we didn't make any excuses. We refunded you immediately and sent an additional $562 to cover your VAT and return shipping charges, and we also discounted your subsequent purchase. As an aside, we also moved the technician involved to another position in the company. As I said, that was an inexcusable error. We all agree on that.
Regarding the transaction for the Gallo speakers, the simple explanation is that there wasn't a transaction. Merely placing something in your cart on our website does not hold the product indefinitely. There was no payment made. There is no history in our server logs for a transaction of any kind. In fact, the email that you sent us was a reply to an "abandoned cart email" which is an automated email that goes out from us when items are left in your cart. You never completed checkout - presumably because you were not happy about the sales tax shown in your cart for a New Jersey purchase. I assume this is why you inquired about shipping costs to Israel. But given that we are closed on the weekends, we did not respond to that inquiry until Monday - at which point the speakers had already sold elsewhere.
Had you given us a chance to respond in full before going public with your grievances, we would have explained all of this and offered to help you find a product that would meet your needs.
While I regret having to respond in this forum, I certainly don't fault you for being disappointed. We're all a little stressed out these days, and even minor disappointments can feel really big right now. Let's try to work these types of issues out together one-to-one in the future. We're on your side. Feel free to email me directly anytime if you don't feel like you're getting "fair" treatment from my customer service team - josh@tmraudio.com.
PS - we are launching an exciting new feature to our website later this year that will help everyone find the products they're looking for without worrying so much about "losing" your long-sought-after product to someone else. We'll have a "saved search" feature that will provide you with an email alert the moment a product is added to our inventory that meets your search criteria. Along with this, we'll be adding some great search filters that will allow you to more efficiently search the 1000+ certified pre-owned products available in our store. We're excited about launching this great feature in the next 60-90 days, but in the meantime, feel free to reach out to our sales team if we can help you find some great speakers - sales@tmraudio.com.
Testing gear thoroughly is not easy. The key word is thoroughly. Does even that mean there will never be any problems? No. But that should be the exception, not the rule, and a reputable company will make things right which by all account TMR seems to do in general.
I look at buying pricey gear from a professional and reliable source as an insurance policy as much as anything with the expectation that any issues that might slip through the cracks will be addressed. I am willing to pay a premium for extra insurance when it comes to buying pricey and often complex used audio gear.
I am very likely to buy from them at some point. If people know of better sources to consider, I am all ears for sure.
I have been burned buying pricey used items from individuals somewhat here in the past, but luckily the name brand maker of the gear provided good and reasonably priced service and I was able to resolve the issue that way.
I once told TMR hat they should upgrade their camera as their pictures were consistently gray, and unappealing. They didn't like it, and told me so. Since then, I have bought a few things from them and they have ALL been good experiences. Their descriptions are accurate, the ratings of the equipment they sell are fair and their prices are reasonable when compared to other resellers here (you know who you are).
I bought a Musical Fidelity preamp that had a slight problem with the remote. When I called, they offered a discount to accept it. I am partially disabled so the remote was pretty important. They gladly took it back and gave me a great discount on a Parasound JC-2 that I wanted. They paid for all shipping. I thought they treated me well.
Mapman...as always, much respect...but, unless I inferred improperly...they represent themselves as a premium purveyor of used equipment...and stress that they test every piece.
If you look at my posts(e.g. cap replacement estimate), you’ll see I’m very much a pro-vendor...”cost of doing business” advocate...probably to a fault...however, to me, their prices seem an additional notch higher than a brick and mortar business selling used goods. The only reason I would pay more is getting that QC added value...else, why not wait for a reputable private seller.
Bottom Line...if they say they test used equipment before selling...they MUST do that...every single time.
I had my first TMR transaction last week. The Pass INT 25 arrived yesterday. Flawless condition. Well it is too much to expect the remote to be cleaned I suppose. Their double boxing the Pass box impressed me. They are apparently too busy for same day shipping. Not Amazon after all. On a scale of 1 to 100, with one hundred being the unobtainable perfection no merchant can achieve but should always strive for, I will give them a 94. Soundman I dare say you were a bit unlucky. Also why not buy your gear over there? Prices are lower and freight would also be a savings.
TMR cranks out a lot of used gear every week. Testing it all comprehensively would be very time consuming. I’d be shocked if nothing ever slipped through the cracks, so as a buyer I would always be leery and be sure to check things out thoroughly to confirm you got what you were sold no matter who the source. How often issues sneak through and what happens afterwards is what always matters with any vendor.
Buying used is always risky business, especially with older gear. I expect some sources to be more reliable than others especially when asking top dollar, but not perfect. One can only hope. It’s always perfectly reasonable to expect what is delivered is what is advertised.
I too had an experience with TMR that made me think that they did not fully test (as prominently advertised) before selling. Bought a preamp whose remote function was dead on arrival. Turns out that a necessary ground connection was MISSING. They did take care of the problem after shipping back to them, etc. but it was a big hassle (that could have been avoided).
People do make mistakes...but this kinda left a bad taste in my mouth....mostly because they imply they do extensive testing before reselling pieces (their premium prices also presumably take this into account). They could NOT have successfully tested the remote functions worked before shipping to me.
re. 100% positive feedback...for these high volume vendors...take it with a grain of salt...as in my almost 20 years of Agon experience....I’ve seen negative feedback come and go for some of them. I can’t be sure ...but suspect it would be harder for us individuals to “correct” negative feedback issues...
The OP has every right to post his experience as long as done factually and respectfully. Turns out his (and others) experience matches mine.
I have had one experience with TMR. A few months ago I bought a set of kef bookshelf speakers represented as fully tested excellent condition Etc. Quick shipping easy transaction overall but when I plugged them in it was obvious they weren't tested at all. The sound that came from these speakers would make your ears bleed obviously there was something wrong with the voice coils. They said to return them for a refund but didn't give me a return label. When I pointed this out they reluctantly provided one and then when I got the refund it was short the original Shipping cost. I essentially got to pay $30 for a bunch of aggravation and disappointment
I also think that the OP has a reasonable attitude here. He had to bad experiences with a reputable company. His initial post acknowledges that his experience may be an outlier and he is asking for feedback. It is a service to the rest of us to have others share their experiences with vendors. My only mild criticism is his labeling his second experience an “emergency “. Buying an audio component is never an emergency. It would not be my expectation that CS be available on the weekends. Of course, a dealer that exceeds expectations will tend to get more business, but that is their choice.
I have done only one transaction with TMR and I couldn't be more satisfied. I traded in a PS Audio P10 for the P15 and the shipping was fast and the transaction was handled quickly and smoothly.
It seems like the majority feel pretty good about TMR. Your expectation about an apology, or something symbolic is understandable. You’ve obviously been looking forward to adding this particular component to your system for some time. When it went up in smoke and they treated you like you got the wrong color pair of shoes- I can see why you would start a thread looking for some reconsiliation. Did you ask if they would repair it and send it back? Maybe you don’t want a fried product for resale value? I was suprised that I couldn’t be put on a list and notified when a particular product appeared. That’s not so much a complaint as a suggestion that I made. Here you have a lead knocking on the door with cash and they can’t put you on a list- simple spreadsheet or even a big white-board?
My experiences with TMR have been perfect and have included them shipping some very heavy and somewhat expensive monoblocks to the midwest - excellent packing and the amps arrived in perfect shape. I initially was not sure I wanted to keep the amps and they said, "no problem, we have a return policy," but I ended up keeping them. A return policy on used equipment is pretty much the gold standard, IME. Sorry your experiences did not go as well.
Shitt happens. One usually has the chance of a better outcome with PayPal on your side. Of course import/export has it's own risks. If I were in Europe I think I would avoid electronics from USA no matter what they are marked
I have had numerous dealings with TMR involving new equipment with both trades and outright purchases. All handled perfectly. I think they did do right on refunding your $$ for the CD player. Who knows, it might have got damaged in shipping that caused the smell.
As for the speakers, I don't think TMR handled this correctly if you successfully purchased them. Basic online sales would flag the item sold and would have updated the inventory as soon as the PayPal transaction went thru. Pretty simple process. They could have validated your sale against the other buyer to see who hit the buy key 1st. Since they probably didn't ship the speakers out yet when you called, if they found out that you were the 1st buyer, they should have sold them to you. If you were the 2nd buyer, then the PayPal transaction should have never gone thru.
Had similar experience with different company, Audioemotions uk, whereas I bought a pair of used Tannoy eatons at a great price on-line from their website, 2990 british pounds (about 3850 us dollars at the time). A day later I heard back from them that a salesman had sold them to someone in scotland in store. However, they felt terrible about it and decided to place an order with tannoy for a brand new pair of the Tannoy eatons (including 16 inch atacama stands!) For the same price as used, 2990 british pounds! So I guess my ending was a happier one. These speakers are $5500 per pair, so I’d say I got a terrific deal.
I have had multiple dealings with TMR. Both selling to them and purchasing from them. All transactions have been fair and any issues that did come up were handled properly.
I had an exchange with a guy about an old McIntosh integrated that they wanted too much money for. I told him it looked like it had been beaten with that axe in the Shining, and it wasn’t worth asking. He stopped communicating with me, as I probably would have. Responsive outfit nice people.
No retailer is above criticism. I’m sure TMR does a good job most of the time but everyone screws up from time to time. There’s no need to gang up and shout down someone who has had a bad experience with TMR. Listen to what he says and draw your own conclusions about TMR, but we should allow people to express opinions that run contrary to the majority. Differences of opinion are healthy in public discourse and should be encouraged.
So they made an error on the CDP voltage and did a pretty good job with a refund although not 100% but still not bad. Seems like they should have gone on step further and checked if the unit was 220v set-up.
Next I am not sure how the checkout move to the cart works? In buying parts weekly from different manufacturers, I know that you have to add to the cart and then complete shipping details, and go to the checkout to complete the transaction and choose your payment method usually credit card or PayPal. Then typically I get an email conforming the order almost immediately.
While you feel the transaction was completed and it was yours, for whatever reason, it did not turn out that way. I'd be a little pissed off myself but I have also come to understand that there is no one great deal out there and another one will show up again in time.
Is all this TMRs fault? Some of it but not all of it IMO.
As far as working 24/7/365 I don't answer every email for my company in a timely way always. I get about 100 emails a week. All kinds of questions that don't turn into sales. In the beginning I was on top of all of this but now I want to be responsive to everyone, but it is just not possible. There is never enough time in a day unfortunately.
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