Having spun an Oppo 105 for many years on its own before adding a Schiit Gungnir (bought for a generous steal from a wonderful seller here), I was immediately struck with how much more presence and detail the Schiit added to the Oppo's presentation.
That Gungnir, even new, pales in comparison pricewise with 4 and 5 figure DACs I see for sale here.
So what do those much more expensive DACS do for sound? I mean, how much more information can be dug out of the digital files? Is it akin to what a good phono stage can do for a cartridge?
A little update on my A/B comparison between a PS Audio DS DAC Mk1 ($6800) and an Ayre Codex ($1800 new?) w/ both being fed by an iFi Neo Stream (I²S to DSD and USB to Codex). I was using Roon, as I always do and the Neo was using fiber from NUC into the fiber SC input... Bottom line, they both had their strengths and weaknesses. The DS DAC was definitely more refined (ie less congested in busier passages). It's highs were a bit softened which I absolutely dislike (and I've known about this trait for quite some time). The Codex exhibited better front to back imaging and better treble. The bass was a tad boomier than the DS DAC which I also do not care for but it was very slight. It still reaches down pretty damn low for such a little DAC. That little extra bass energy just mucks up busy parts of a song just a tad, IMO. Very slight but I hear it. I honestly preferred the Codex though even due to it's short comings. It could very well be that it synergized better with my other Ayre Gear even though it was a cheap DAC.
In this case the cost, is not worth the jump up to the DS DAC, IMO. So I said screw them both and just ordered a new Ayre QX-5 Twenty 😂 Ayre just sings to me whereas PS Audio is a bit too laid-back/relaxed for my tastes. If I want that, I'll throw on a record. I love hearing ride cymbal ping/cymbal sizzle that take a while to decay. This is realism to me since I play the drums. The DS DAC muffles them it a bit and I don't care for that. Sure it is more pleasing to the ears, but I crave accuracy even if it's more piercing (as cymbals should always be!).
I have no doubt that the QX-5 will nail the bass perfectly (deep and even tauter than the PS Audio), retain the sweet highs, have even better front to back soundstage than either of the other two DACs and be more refined than the PS Audio. And those traits are what a higher priced DAC should bring to the table. But in all seriousness, I was looking for a QX-5 before ever doing this. This little exercise merely motivated me to do it now :)
I have owned a qx-5 twenty for 4 years. We moved last year and while we were in the process, I sent my unit in for the USB update. The USB-2 update pushed my qx-5/20 to another level. I assume if yours is new from the factory, the update will be include. If not, by all means have it updated once your DAC is broken in.
@simaoI have tested dozens of DACs ranging from the Khadas Tone 2 up to the dCS Rossini w/ Clock.
All DACs are a trade off between detail, image size (height/width) and depth. Almost all of these DACs offer some coloration or interpretation of how music is supposed to sound. There is not a linear relationship from a pricing stand point but ultimately, generally the higher the price the less compromise between these three factors. This holds in broad terms when you consider units in different price clusters but individual results will vary.
You have to get into the details of each product in terms of comparisons
You might consider swapping out the oppo for a transport such as Jay's or pro-ject first. Seems to me it makes more sense to ensure you're extracting as much data from disc's as possible before moving to a more expensive DAC.
A little update on my A/B comparison between a PS Audio DS DAC Mk1 ($6800) and an Ayre Codex ($1800 new?) w/ both being fed by an iFi Neo Stream (I²S to DSD and USB to Codex). I was using Roon, as I always do and the Neo was using fiber from NUC into the fiber SC input... Bottom line, they both had their strengths and weaknesses. The DS DAC was definitely more refined (ie less congested in busier passages). It's highs were a bit softened which I absolutely dislike (and I've known about this trait for quite some time). The Codex exhibited better front to back imaging and better treble. The bass was a tad boomier than the DS DAC which I also do not care for but it was very slight. It still reaches down pretty damn low for such a little DAC. That little extra bass energy just mucks up busy parts of a song just a tad, IMO. Very slight but I hear it. I honestly preferred the Codex though even due to it's short comings. It could very well be that it synergized better with my other Ayre Gear even though it was a cheap DAC.
In this case the cost, is not worth the jump up to the DS DAC, IMO. So I said screw them both and just ordered a new Ayre QX-5 Twenty 😂 Ayre just sings to me whereas PS Audio is a bit too laid-back/relaxed for my tastes. If I want that, I'll throw on a record. I love hearing ride cymbal ping/cymbal sizzle that take a while to decay. This is realism to me since I play the drums. The DS DAC muffles them it a bit and I don't care for that. Sure it is more pleasing to the ears, but I crave accuracy even if it's more piercing (as cymbals should always be!).
I have no doubt that the QX-5 will nail the bass perfectly (deep and even tauter than the PS Audio), retain the sweet highs, have even better front to back soundstage than either of the other two DACs and be more refined than the PS Audio. And those traits are what a higher priced DAC should bring to the table. But in all seriousness, I was looking for a QX-5 before ever doing this. This little exercise merely motivated me to do it now :)
For me it depends on the system quality and room acoustics/ size. Up to a certain point a dac like the Denafrips Aries is all you’ll ever need. The differences could be subtle if we are talking of a simple system, but can be really palpable in a highly resolving one.
Why does Tidal Master quality streaming through my Oppo/Schiit combo sound so much better than playing a CD through the same combo? I'm talking of identical releases of CD and streaming selection.
They're not identical if the stream has been processed with MQA.
In my case, being a professional studio musician, I'm extremely sensitive to the power of music, the sound of instruments, and in particular groove. My DAC solution (M-Scaler/Dave) has both excellent clarity (where instruments sound more like they'd sound in the room than with lesser solutions) that I think the Dave is responsible for, and it grooves really well (I feel your my bobbing, my toe tapping, I get sucked into the music's rhythm better) that I think the M-Scaler's sorting of transients contributes to. But these are only a guess as to why it's working well for me. As in all things musical in both my amateur and professional life, it all boils down to "is the music moving me?" In neither life can I accept that the music not move me. So the expenditure was worth it to upgrade.
Here's a tangential question: Why does Tidal Master quality streaming through my Oppo/Schiit combo sound so much better than playing a CD through the same combo? I'm talking of identical releases of CD and streaming selection.
My current DAC is completely void of features , the only thing it does better than the adi2 is sound better. That RME is good but the excellent sounding LAB 12 DAC is much more engaging to listen to.
Understood. However, for some, it seems that sound quality and listening engagement/enjoyment are secondary concerns.
Much of what is praised over at ASR is mediocre Chi Fi . My former DAC , the RME adi2 was the darling of ASR until some cheap Chi Fi DAC bettered it's specs....and then that was the favorite of ASR
My current DAC is completely void of features , the only thing it does better than the adi2 is sound better. That RME is good but the excellent sounding LAB 12 DAC is much more engaging to listen to.
Interesting thread. I’m an audiophile voyeur but a mid-fi owner…and think my hobby benefits measurably from many threads here. From the perspective of available time, budget and living space size, I’m locked into making the most from digital sources, so DAC talk matters to me…followed by cable info :)
FWIW, the quality of my listening has gone up a lot by using the Auris Audifi WiFi Receiver, an amazing device for micro-dollars. The interface is phone based and can handle many hi-res music services at lossless file size. The ESS Sabre DAC inside seems to push a dynamic range that matches the potential of my AE Techron serviced 1984 Crown PS 200 (155 WPC into 4 ohm Wharfedale Lintons and a REL T5i with Mogami cables and interconnects.)
Thanks all for helping our household “listen way above our budget.”
@charles1dadwrote: "Good observations. I would bet a paycheck that your Topping DAC measures better than your LampiZator Baltic 4. I’d also bet that it doesn’t sound nearly as good as the Baltic 4 DAC."
Charles
I bought a D90SE soon after it first came out. I think it's still the highest measured DAC on ASR but I haven't been on there in a while to verify. Anyway, I was looking for a new DAC for my PC setup. I had an older Ayre Codex and my PS Audio Stellar DAC was away for warranty issues. Bottom line, I sent it back. It sounded low-fi and cheap, probably on par - or maybe a tad better than my Schiit Modi Multi-bit 2 DAC. I put up a more descriptive review on Amazon at that time. I gave it 3 stars, which surprises me. I must've been in a great mood that day.
Most fun I have had with my Terminator lately is fabricating various brass "drains" of the pointy and sometimes not so pointy varieties to replace the rubberized feet that came with it. I am astonished at the different ways a DAC can be made to dance by modifying its supports.
The one thing no one has mentioned (as far as I have read) is service and support after the sale. Good customer support and service is a hallmark of the high end hifi industry. It has a lot to do with good gear keeping its resale value because people know certain brands are still supported years after the original sale. That service can also include in home setup and adjustments from specially trained individuals. A lot to be said for good customer service. We Americans have grown accustomed to seeking out the best deal so much that now we have to pay for service and support after the sale. Apple, Best Buy, et al have set up a nice side income with their monthly payment plans for warranty support. So for those looking solely at the bottom line point of sale, they prefer to spin the roulette wheel in hopes that their new component never fails. The other problem is that many things we buy today are no longer supported after just a few years.
I'd love to see the look on my grandparents faces if I could have told them that one day people would pay $1500 or more for a telephone and then throw it away in just a couple of years as it becomes obsolete. Not to mention the $17/month extended warranty fee. We have given away so much with respect to customer service.
please come over this weekend, i am hosting a listening party using oscilloscopes only... we will look at sine wave traces at varying frequencies of a dozen dacs --- be prepared to be impressed! we can sit outside on the deck enjoy the crisp winter air!!
oh yes, several of my deaf friends will be in attendance...😂🤣😅😆
Good observations. I would bet a paycheck that your Topping DAC measures better than your LampiZator Baltic 4. I’d also bet that it doesn’t sound nearly as good as the Baltic 4 DAC.
@charles1dadyes it's obvious that if measurements captured ALL sonically relevant parameters then excellent measurements would correlate strongly with sonic excellence. One such parameter is soundstage width/depth - which set of measurements reliably correlate with a wide/deep soundstage? Answer: nobody seems to know. Why is there not more curiosity about answers to these sorts of specific questions amongst the measurements-first crowd? Even I would be interested in studies done to determine the answers, so one is left to surmise that crowd aren't interested really in science as much as they are interested in being right and trolling those who aren't convinced that the current sonic measurements regime is a completed field of study.
As an aside, it’s interesting that "superbly" measuring DACs like my Topping D90SE don’t sound as good as the more expensive DACs in my collection that measure comparatively poorly... whatever design and parts choices that lead to great measurements don’t correlate with great sound necessarily.
This is not a surprising finding. I have read comments from DAC designers/builders who say that even inexpensive off the shelf Op-Amps are capable of surperb measurements on a test bench. But they stated that this result is not correlated with good sound quality.
This explains why some lower cost DACs can have excellent performance numbers yet disappoint when actually listening to recorded music.
I must also admit that our biases, both positive and negative biases, play a role. For instance, the fact that ASR shills for Topping negatively affects my impression of their products in much the same way if your ex-wife likes strawberry ice cream. It doesnt matter thereafter, there will be no strawberry ice cream for me. For the record, I’ve been happily married for 26 years. Also for the record, I have no idea if my ex likes strawberry ice cream…I never listened to her long enough to find out.
A lot of people are missing the point about the Gumby! I own one, and bought it used for a good price.What sold me over the other DACs is it is upgradeable. I can for a price, upgrade it when Schitt upgrades it. Also, I just love the proprietairy USB side. Unison. I found out that I was overfiltering it. I plug it right into the powerstrip with Surge protection. I know what you are thinking, What !!!!! Straight out to a protected power strip? Yes, but I live 300 feet in my neighborhood from the transformer. And all my power is pretty good. And, I have a Schitt Freya + and a Prima Luna Prologue 5. SO, my tube rolling can change the sound dramatically!!So I feel every setup can sound good if you know what you are doing, and know how to tweek,and know the synergy with other components. We all upgrade, and it does help. But Does a 5k DAC sound better? Probably, but I get 97 percent of the way there. And I am happy. For now!
@simao great that you are satisfied with the Gungnir, I must admit it has been expensive suffering from upgraditis! My limited understanding of the technical design differences between expensive and cheap DACs is that power supply, isolation, and clocking are the key areas. I'm not an engineer so I can't assess design choices, but one look inside an MSB Reference was a damn convincing experience of what your money buys you when you spend $$$$. As an aside, it's interesting that "superbly" measuring DACs like my Topping D90SE don't sound as good as the more expensive DACs in my collection that measure comparatively poorly... whatever design and parts choices that lead to great measurements don't correlate with great sound necessarily.
@charles1dad …”I would also prefer the natural sound presentation over the hyper detailed type of presentation.”
+1
I completely agree. First that there are a lot of components with different ultimate sound goals… and consequently sound very different. Hyper detailed system unless really high quality can be accompanied by a high noise floor and distortion, higher level ones eliminate these, but frequently do not sound natural.
Second, I prefer natural sound (highly detailed… but in natural perspective) to details at all cost or accentuated chest caving bass, or super fast transients that create a cool effect, but do not sound like real music.
I guess my original question was either phrased incorrectly or has been interpreted wrongly. What I'm getting at is more technical for the most part: like, what can more expensive DAC's (which I rationally believe would have better design, parts and build) do for a signal that a much less expensive one can't?
Also, @kairosmanMy system is probably well equipped to appreciate the Gustard. However, I'm quite happy with what I have. My original question was more rhetorical than applicable.
@knownothingthanks for the thread link. What I read there corresponds to what I know about phono stages (which I'm way more experienced with than with DACs). Yet DACs, by their very nature, seem more complicated and technical than phono stages.
@simaoyou experience a wow moment after adding the Gungnir then pose the question, what do even more expensive DACs do better/different than cheaper ones like your Gungnir, then later you describe a listening session where an uber expensive CD player wasn't memorably better than your digital front end, which anecdote suggests you are persuaded by those posters here who state that there's no correlation in hifi between higher cost and the feeling the higher cost ALSO represents value-for-money. The Law of Diminishing Returns IS a thing in digital hifi, but the resolution of the rest of your system will determine whether you get a value-for-money feeling if/when you upgrade from the Gungnir to, for example, a Gustard R26 streamer/DAC for $2K. I guarantee you the Gustard is MUCH better sonically than your Gungnir, but whether your system can exploit that sonic improvement is something nobody here can say. You will have to take the plunge and listen for yourself in your system, there is no other way unfortunately 😕
@johnah5I had an Esoteric N05XD which is a very high end DAC. It didn't sound natural to me as in if you go hear music it would not sound like the Esoteric which was sooo quiet between notes that it was odd.
I now have a Reimyo R2R that was substantially less than the Esoteric
I would also prefer the natural sound presentation over the hyper detailed type of presentation. There are definitely different niches of listerners and audio components.
Hi great responses. From my non technical view point, I have had Sigma/Delta DAC's and new and old R2R dacs.
I had an Esoteric N05XD which is a very high end DAC. It didn't sound natural to me as in if you go hear music it would not sound like the Esoteric which was sooo quiet between notes that it was odd.
I now have a Reimyo R2R that was substantially less than the Esoteric. So like others have said more money can equal an uber resolving, or some other uber thing that will color the sound.
Money goes into programing the FPGA chips and also parts that make less noise which helps the sound.
"This is a rich man site where people think buzz words and price tags rule. Most people can’t find a place to hear these brands, much less afford them and are ridiculed for not selling the farm to get a “better” something in their system. Thinking rich people have better ears is like the emperor’s new clothes. Buy steak, not sizzle and you can enjoy the music for the music rather than sit with a frown on your face because you THINK you could do better. "
@ghdprentice I have a different option on some of the major brands you mention. Parts quality are mostly nothing special IMO and in general I'm not too impressed with the use of circuit boards. Most have good looks and sound better that mid- fi gear but the cost IMO does not justify the extra cost. Upgrading some products has in my experience brought those products closer to reference levels that have surpased the sound quality oh the major brands top of the line products. We consistently do this type of work weekly for a lot less. Money than the higher cost brand name products. Not to say they are bad but they are not manufactured with the best parts to achieve better sound quality. Happy listening
A little input from the poor side of town. I have been a sound junkie since I bought my first reel to reel in Vietnam in 1966. Everthing was analog then and 30hz was 30hz so your upgrades were based on looks and build quality - or maybe cutesy tricks like speed control so you could play along with more adept musicians. I have been through all the changes since then like Dolby or DBX or 4 channel or reverb etc until bandwidth restrictions brought about digital music and people pay $20,000 to try to imitate the sound you could get from a $300 tape deck or $200 turntable with a $100 cartridge. This is a rich man site where people think buzz words and price tags rule. Most people can’t find a place to hear these brands, much less afford them and are ridiculed for not selling the farm to get a “better” something in their system. Thinking rich people have better ears is like the emperor’s new clothes. Buy steak, not sizzle and you can enjoy the music for the music rather than sit with a frown on your face because you THINK you could do better.
Same old question gets the same old reply. Price means nothing design and parts mean everything. Most people here have never had a reference component in their system. Reviews mean nothing. The old Marantz CD-94 still competes in sound quality to most any DAC mentioned in this forum.
Re: Holo May DAC reviews. All of the Youtube reviews are uniformly enthusiastic.
.Whether this is a question of contagion, or a genuine indication of quality may be debatable; but these are all reviewers I have found reliable for other components in the past so I am inclined to look upon this DAC favorably and have ordered one to replace my Terminator (original one from years ago,)
+1 for @bolongreference to GoldenSound review of the HoloAudio KTE May DAC, but I would also watch part 2 in which the reviewer tries to describe objectively and subjectively how all that technology translates into what he hears. Spoiler alert, he uses the word “fantastic” a lot, but for me that doesn’t really diminish the value of his earnest attempts to describe what he is hearing from the Holo May. If this is too rich for your blood, you might look at HoloAudio Spring. I personally like Chord and Denafrips DACs as somewhat opposite ends of the audio spectrum, at least at lower price points, with the latter like HoloAudio being a pretty good value proposition.
If your feet are tapping and if your eyes are watering and if you get goosebumps, no need to be frustrated: it’s not so bad after all.
I agree. If you reach this type of response while listening to music you’ve achieved musical engagement/involvement/connection. So regardless of cost, you’ve done something right to get there. How one reaches this outcome and the path taken will vary.
I’m on the same track as the OP. I’ve started my audiophile journey around integrated CD players, and not the expensive ones (Kenwood dP7090, Revox B226) then I moved on to the modern transport + DAC, albeit still at the "budget" level (Audiolab 6000CDT + Gustard A18). It’s around 1000$, a bit more, of digital source, which is nothing nowadays, but with a little care (decoupling, power cords, fuses...) I have a hard time trying to imagine exactly HOW this could ever sound BETTER.
Now I’m not a skeptic AT ALL, and I know the high end sounds better in absolute. Although it's hard to put words, sometimes, on the subjective differences.
But I go to my friend who has an Accuphase integrated CD player and it doesn’t sound "more analog" or "more like music". I go to audio shows and I hear 6 figures systems, and yeah, ok, it sounds nice (sometimes), but how much of that comes from the 50K digital source? Why am I not more frustrated when I come back home and listen to my budget digital source? What I mean is, system synergy is key, and it’s totally possible IMHO to build a great sounding system around a well chosen and well cared for "budget" digital source. If your feet are tapping and if your eyes are watering and if you get goosebumps, no need to be frustrated: it's not so bad after all.
@simaofirst off, absolutely stunning listening room. Secondly, I feel like some of the focus in this thread around DAC cost isn’t really giving you all the tools that will be helpful to you in discerning different qualities of DACs at different price points, and in determining which of those qualities might be important for you. Here is a link to a recent Audiogon thread that I think does a good job describing these characteristics in higher end DACs that could be applied to DACs at pretty much any price point and could be helpful. There are a lot of comments on the thread, and I might suggest only reading those from the OP for efficiency. Good luck.
Cost is only one of many indicators of how good something is.
Having said that, like many things in life unless someone is totally screwing you typically get what you pay for.
If you can't tell the difference between a $200 or $2,000 or $20,000 DAC then you've either been blessed with poor hearing and won't suffer from upgradeitis or you need to work on the rest of your system so that you can realize what a difference a great source can make.
and then there's this, too: a central component like a new Technics integrated, say the su-r1000 if you have the cash, or an Accuphase with the dac module, and don't add more "stuff" to your chain. The Marantz Ruby sacd player / dac unit also sports fine dacs, and thus does double duty, if your amp is analogue.
but, I know people on this forum have fun playing around with "separates" ... but dac diminishing returns is hard and real. usually "better" is really just "different"... and even then the differences are usually subtle.
swapping out dacs can lead one on an endless rabbit hole with no final bottom, but again I acknowledge that's technophile fun and fine as long as it doesn't detract from a musicphile goal of enjoyment of music (if one is actually a musicphile, and if not well then have at the tech chase and enjoy the trip).
I'm going to dust off my Ayre Codex this weekend and compare it with my PS Audio DS DAC. Both will be fed by an iFi Neo Streamer due to it's fiber optic input and aftermarket LPS. I²S out to the DS DAC and USB to the Codex. I suspect they'll sound closer to one another than their cost difference suggests.
The DAC is important, however improving the streamer/source I think is just as important. I have owned a few DACs and they all sounded different but all were improved when supplied with a better digital supply.
If only price were a good guide. There are many DACs that will trounce your DAC, and some may cost less, I don't know about that end, but it certainly would be possible. The problem is that we have limited exposure and we don't all agree as to what we consider diminishing returns, not to mention what we precieve as sounding good. There are a lot of DACs that can better the Gungnir easily. The problem is that when someone recommends x, you don't know their taste in sound, the strengths and weaknesses of their system, etc. This renders their opinion as virtually useless to me. I have more often been disappointed in highly rated equipment than I have been pleased with it. It doesn't matter what magazine the review is in, though through the years I have found several reviewers who have high standards, and with whom I usually agree. Even if stereo shops abounded, paring this with that could negatively impact our impressions of a certain piece of equipment. This is a very difficult hobby to get to a point of contentment in.
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