Hi everyone, Just a question that's been in my head for a little bit. How important do you folks feel this forum is to the audio industry at large in the Ensligh speaking countries? I ask because I often see some taking it way too seriously, and personally.
I mean, I know times are tough, being a boutique audio manufacturer is not easy at any level in the audio industry, so I can really understand how negative buzz for your product can directly relate to your livelihood. On the other hand, it's just A'gon. I doubt most audiophiles even come here very often. What do you all think?
Even when not looking for new equipment I have always sought out HiFi related sites/review/forums. It took a long time before audiogon showed up in my search results.
I don't know if it is because I have visited or other factors have moved it up in search results, but know a search on 'audio forum' or 'HiFi forum' return audiogon on the first page (granted it is the last result).
To those of you who say No,nottah and zilch. I recently completed a long search and purchase for a speakers upgrade. This forum and others out there on the web guided me (Sure I did speak to my dealer as well.).
I’m fortune to have landed with a PrimaLuna HP. That was web guided and landed. Look at their ads (also scads of others) and they site some web reviews.
Othet than some tube rolling I’m not a flipper as staying married is preferable. I’ll just have to dream of mono blocks, exotic speaker wire, and a purpose built litesting room.
Given my sixty plus years I’d think those in this age band would use the web for guidance less than the younger amongst us.
I asked my my kids and some of their friends if they buy expensive stuff sight unseen off the web and they all said yes.
Heck you can buy cars off the web so why not hifi after too many endless hours reading and pontificating.
To the point
Thinking forums don’t influence manufacturers in the hifi industry just isn’t so. I’m not just saying this. I know for a fact that in my industry (loathsome advertising) many company’s monitor forums specific to their businesses. Clicks is the world we live in when not tuning out to blissful music.
As one one client put it “the forums are like having a focus group but with out having to pay for it.” And yes Virginia there are folks they read and folks they turn out. They also count everything. Everything.
When you buy something often you are asked for a review. We are being just as watched as we are watching. Thanks Orwell.
On the industry, probably not much and not at all for some manufacturers. On personal buying choices, it seems A'gon sometimes perpetuates "fads" where a couple of active posters are able to influence the buying choices of others.
I would be more interested in hearing about how much the American (i.e., USA) market influences the audio industry as a whole since I know the Asian market is very active and Europe also has a lot of audio users. I know several USA manufacturers that do a significant overseas business - more than some would think.
We're no more than a drop in an ocean. For every one of us putting marbles in cups, testing armboard materials or rolling NOS tubes, there are 1000 additional 0.1% people entering a market filled with very expensive products aimed at those high net worth individuals.
Please explain. Are you saying to look up any of the stereo gear at Wikipedia to see if they list it to be audiophile quality. I have never used Wikipedia so far so I must still live in the dark ages. Guess I showed my age.
>>>>>I was joking. That is not to say Wikipedia cannot often be a source of excellent easy to find and well organized information.
I seldom offer an opinion, due to trolls. I daily read Audiogon, and occasionally Home Theater Forum. HTF seems to have the most honest reviews of equipment, imo. That said, when researching new gear to purchase (used), i look on the internet for reviews and assessments. There are several contributors on this site I trust and value for their thoughts. I have 2 musician friends that visit and listen with me. The drummer's home theater is the smallest JBL and sub combo. The bass player a small portable radio-dvd device. Neither sound very good. At my house the drummer loves the cymbals and percussion quality. The bass player can hear the mixes and dubbing. I am much older than them. I live in Redding CA, the audiophiles I've met are mostly flippers, with upgraditis yen, and the money to explore new or used. I can only afford used. I'll start asking if they read forums. Advertising. About 1979, while working at Custom Hi Fi (gone) at 16th st and Indian School rd Phoenix, AZ. Worked on an ad for the daily newspaper with the boss. I suggested 99 'bones' instead of 99 dollars for a Technics loss leader for the ad. Chap rolled in a grocery cart with 99 clean beef bones. The store manager said no. The fellow went to the local paper and next, the stores name was in an article on the front page. Local tv picked it up and the boss gave the beef bone chap his receiver, and again it was picked up in the media that the bone fellow had gotten his receiver. Needles to say business picked right up. Good advertising and sometimes bad advertising worked in those times. Job wise, I installed the car stereos for the five stores. Michael Green thank you for your technical contributions. I appreciate all the contributions from members.
One of the retailers in Denver cautioned me about Audiogon because he felt some of the information was not always accurate.
Oh, dear lord, but this is true for forums and dealers in general as well.
Paradigm is also not mentioned which indicates that is not audiophile as well.
I'd like to think of Audiogon as broader than "HEA" and I find the brand snobbery game works more for certain manufacturers than it does for the enthusiasts, so I don't really pay attention.
Please explain. Are you saying to look up any of the stereo gear at Wikipedia to see if they list it to be audiophile quality. I have never used Wikipedia so far so I must still live in the dark ages. Guess I showed my age.
larry572974 posts03-22-2019 6:40amOne of the retailers in Denver cautioned me about Audiogon because he felt some of the information was not always accurate.
I noticed some some people to mention Klipsh and Kef which I do not consider to be audiophile quality. Paradigm is also not mentioned which indicates that is not audiophile as well.
>>>>>Rule no. 1 - Only quote facts
Rule no. 2 - If it’s not mentioned in Wikipedia Audiophile it’s probably not audiophile quality 😀
One of the retailers in Denver cautioned me about Audiogon because he felt some of the information was not always accurate.
I noticed some some people to mention Klipsh and Kef which I do not consider to be audiophile quality. Paradigm is also not mentioned which indicates that is not audiophile as well.
"...I found spoiled produce among the great ones. There went the whole bag into the garage except for a very few..."
Some municipalities collect it, which ends up being very convenient for a non-gardeners amongst us, but you and Las Vegas seem to be out of luck for now. Still, it may be of some interest in the future (unless you really meant "garage" and not "garbage", in which case you probably already have it figured out)...
Also I never seek out demos of gear unless it has good reviews here. It is hard to demo stuff, demo rooms suck half the time.
I am almost to the point where I would look at measurement and forum opinions and buy blind. But I have also heard a ton of gear and know what I like and have some personal “references” to go off of and know my room well.
I don't post much but this question intrigues me. I've been involved with sales and marketing in different industries for over 30 years and we took advantage of any sources we could to help our members to make a decision. Audiogon is important to marketing efforts in the audiophile community as well as other Audio sites since they give us information we can use to pass on to our members. So yeh. I do think Audiogon does influence our buying. One of the problems comes in when the product from the "Boutique Audio" builder that has these fabulous reviews but can't keep up with the demand. And then you have negative reviews. I do think we have a problem in how quickly information is
passed.
I'm an old dude. I used to buy magazines to learn about new products. It took time before a new product came out and I had a chance to read the reviews. Now, write something and push enter and it's there. There might be these hidden gems that we never have a chance to listen to since they could't keep up with demand.
Another example I thought of was a couple years ago I attended Rocky Mountain Audio fest . I was talking to the Paradigm Rep about what was being written after the first night of the show on Audiogon . He said he was aware . These companies look to get public opinion and get it from places like Audiogon
I say it is significant . Manufacturers seem to end up coming here to comment on negative things written about them . It doesn't take long for word to reach them it seems . Is there a bigger audio forum than here ? I am not aware of anything being bigger . Look at recently the class d audio forum where Mivera audio was active for a few days , it did not take Nord Acoustics long to join Audiogon and reply to Miveras posts . Thats just one example , but it happens pretty frequently .
Zero impact. The few people posting on Agon forums are just talking in an echo chamber. There is no impact on the industry or even the larger audiophile community. Most audiophiles I know do not read read Agon.
I interact with a variety of hi-end OEMs in the course of marketing ClarityCaps. I can’t think of more than one or two who follow Audiogon or other high-end forums, and as far as I can see, they do it only out of general interest. Audiocircle is probably the most interesting venue for manufacturers.
In the "soon to be controlled by today's young people" world, there is a whole new job category called "INFLUENCER"...meaning that if you can get enough hits on your page or site, you can paid, and sometimes paid well for bringing eyeballs.
One of the things that I notice on Agon is that it is more or less the same names, over and over again, that are doing the posting...so, in reality, we don't know the number of site visitors, how long they spend on the site and then how many of them actually post. Agon probably does know and probably uses this data to try to "market" themselves to various industry types....as they should.
Oh, and back to my first point, when you click on an influencer's page, you are going to see photos and videos...which isn't happening here...so, is Agon influencing the industry? I suspect that individual companies are influenced when they get extremely good or bad commentary...but the industry as a whole...probably not so much....at least not yet.
Reality is that the written word, on computer or paper, simply doesn't carry the weight it used to. Younger audiophiles will never know how BIG an influence Pearson/the Absolute Sound and Holt/Stereophile were in the developmental stage of this hobby. A good or bad word from either of them back in the day could very often make or break a company. For better or worse, that kind of influence doesn't seem to exist any longer. I'd add that Audiogon, in particular, is completely lacking any kind of authoritative Holt/Pearson-type guru. Although there ARE other websites with established 'voices' that also don't really have much juice.
LEt's just say if audiogon suddenly shut down it would not be a good thing for high end audio, though the actual # people affected in the grand scheme of things would be minimal.
Erik, thanks for the interesting post. I've been an Audiogon member off and on for probably 20+ years and used to be pretty active buying and selling. I retired recently and now have more time to spend on Audiogon.I actually use the posts to learn about equipment, system setup, new music etc. I find it very valuable. And I also see there are retailers who are here often to use the forums as a sales platform. I would find it hard to believe manufacturers aren't aware of things said or sales completed on Audiogon.
Michaelgreenaudio ++++ perfectly said. Many of the younger generation I work with uses the internet for everything. And you are right, none of them fear starting there own thing on the net. They are of the internet age and know exactly how to get followers. Remember this, by the time most of them reach age 4 or less they have a laptop in front of them. By 6 yrs many have smart phones. I'm sure by 20 they understand the internet, followers and creating websites.
Audiogon is read, it’s not trusted though and it’s not a big part of the newer movements. I talk with my friends in Asia every day who have more of a pulse for this topic. They have listening gatherings far more than anything here in the states. You talk to someone here about soundstaging for example and they have no clue by comparison. Over there it’s a common topic.
At the same time Audiogon as a name is very well known and has people looking at as a place that could potentially be a knowledge hub. Serious audiophiles though don’t want to sift through threads for nuggets among the trash. This is how they describe it to me. I know when I started up on here I got flooded with emails telling me the pros and cons of me being here and what they thought of Agon. I got the same response on Stereophile in the beginning but the people who emailed me from there quickly turned on them after trolling began. You’d be surprised how much credibility these forums loose from the trolling that goes on.
I know a few folks who would be up here posting if it weren’t for the time wasters they see here.
I went shopping the other day at whole foods and was so excited to get home. When I got here and started to take fruit out of the bag (I usually pick through) I found spoiled produce among the great ones. There went the whole bag into the garage except for a very few, but my desire to dig in was gone.
Depends on how much of the industry you're looking at. All of my friends say they enjoy listening to music while they are doing other tasks, none of them can imagine sitting and listening, and none of them have any kind of system to speak of. Most of the audio industry is aimed at the masses. I'm pretty sure our tiny niche group has zero influence on that, though I think we might have some influence on the high-end manufacturers. Maybe.
This is a question I and my associates happen to be right in the middle of as we speak. In fact some of them are here at my place over this weekend. The question is not about the posters as much as it is the readers. What you are not seeing on the pages is what is happening behind the scenes.
Something I have expressed several times with Audiogon is they need to seriously consider cracking down on the internet trolling, because times are changing. The economic change alone taking place in audio is a major paradigm shift. For example this Class D Low Mass movement brings the young back into the picture. These listeners are not going to tolerate trolling. They will either be here or start their own thing.
Audiogon has an opportunity to be a part of the newer version of Consumer Electronics but it will ultimately be up to them to be a main contributor or a forum who ends up ushering in the new era with others being the main attraction. I’m as interested as anyone to see where Agon fits.
So for me it's not where Agon is now but where will Agon be with a newer generation.
I can only provide one data point related to Erik’s question, namely my own purchasing experiences.
When I consider purchasing an audio component, if after following and/or researching comments that have been provided here or elsewhere about particular products within the specific category I find what seems to me to be significant controversy about the manufacturer’s customer service and support, or that seems to suggest that system matching and/or setup are more critical than usual with that component, that component becomes a non-starter as far as I am concerned. There are always alternatives which don’t have those concerns but are otherwise comparable.
So to me commentary provided at forums such as this one are an essential and very influential means of narrowing the possibilities when it comes to selecting an audio component.
as for Googling and ending up here… try deleting all your web history, cookies and then search again.
our degree of impact on the market…. or how important are audio forums…
I’ve wondered the same sort of things in the past. I agree there does not seem to be any concensus the membership here or at any other forum detracts or contributes significantly to or from the upper end audio market.
indeed, what one says online and what one actually does in fact can often be very different.
I’ve heard too despite the level of acrimony or negative conotation in a post or topic, ALL advertising is good.
to what degree meanderings and ramblings online impact new product sales is presently anyone’s guess.
as the majority of transactions here or at another major resale website are overwhelmingly preowned merchandise I’d offer we have little impact at all on the current audio market new merchandise sales apart from contributing to increasing awareness.
the one area which may be impacted would be the retail ranges below $3500 for new kit. perhaps even below $2000.
maybe less.
loads of disposable income were disposed of about six years ago or so when the economy took a big hit, briefly. although it has recovered, ain’t no one gonna drop their MSRP accordingly, any time soon.
one thing to keep in mind, what ever is the total membership at ALL HT or Audio forums combined, we still make up only a tiny percentage of the buying public at large.
that said, we make up the largest portion of the buying public which will buy audio products at prices other people would scoff at or choke on after hearing what they are!
I’ve also wondered given the nature of the industry having a well worn appetite for dealing with used gear, why more if not all dealers arent more into taking in trades, or used gear as partial payments for their new kit?
the most attractive sales tactic I’ve been hooked with was a trade it back in for full price if you choose a likewise but more expensive product. buy a pr of speakers for $3K new, and within 12 months get $3K credit on a pr of speakers costing $6K, or $10K, etc.
I believe electronics had a shorter period for trading up, like 90 days? or not. can’t remember.
only thing I recall for a fact was I became reluctantly loyal to that dealership for quite some time.
then I was told about this venue. yet I’m still inclined to buy new when possible.
I don’t know the answer to your question but I would not dismiss this a streamer insignificant. No one needs bad internet comments, and in Audio, a greater proportion of people buy on line. I’ve googled components many times and been directed to this site to read posts, so it isn’t just Agon members that see this stuff
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